Why good people become bad bosses | Jamie Woolf and Christopher Bell

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0:41It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com slash teen.

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1:38In fact, according to LinkedIn, those hiring with LinkedIn are 24 % less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash tedbiz, spelled B-I-Z. Terms and conditions apply. I often stress the importance of being vulnerable and honest, especially when you're in a leadership position. So I'm going to take some of my own medicine and admit to something that still breaks my heart. I know what bad bosses are like because I've had them, but also because I've been one.

2:22In college, I was involved in a student-run company. Well, it was actually the largest student-run company in the world. I mean, we had a board of directors, the whole deal. And in my sophomore year, I was vice president of the company. I found myself in this strange position of managing people who were older than me, people who were my friends, people who were freshmen. It was all new for me, and it was challenging to be friendly but stern, approachable yet in charge. And in a few cases, I was a little too stern. At the end of the year, my younger assistant let me know the effect my management style had on him.

3:00He said it made his stutter worse. I'll never forget how horrible that made me feel to hear this. I vowed to never make someone feel like that again. It was an early and painful reminder that even the most well-intentioned leaders can become bad bosses. I'm Madhu Bakanola. This is TED Business, a podcast from TED. Our guests today, leadership experts Jamie Wolfe and Christopher Bell, are here to ask some big questions about management styles. We're quick to judge the bad boss. We've all had one at one point or another. But what if we're the bad boss? Jamie and Christopher turn the mirror back on us and unpack how pervasive quote-unquote power blindness can be.

3:48Then after the talk, I'll add a safeguard of my own. But first, a quick break.

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5:28In a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. member FDIC.

5:42And now, Jamie Wolfe and Christopher Bell take the TED stage. I knew that I had had a truly wretched boss. The day I learned I needed surgery. So I was 26 years old, and they were telling me this surgery might mean I can't have kids. So I was devastated. But my strongest emotion was this surge of excitement, because this meant five weeks away from a boss who had made my life miserable. And just to be clear, I have two wonderful kids, and part of why I'm here today is they have had more than their fare of terrible bosses, and they're very early in their career.

6:45Jamie and I run a company that's in the business of trying to crack this bad boss problem. And it's not easy. You want to know why? Okay, let's play a game. Show of hand. How many of you have ever had a boss who made you feel not good? Made you feel disrespected? Keep them up. Disrespected, incompetent. Look around. Almost all of us have had these kinds of people with institutional power in our lives. And for you, that might not have even been a boss. That might have been a teacher or a coach. Just someone who's really bad at being in power, who gets to have power over you.

7:32So we, Dr. Bell and I, collect research on this. So a recent Harris poll found that 71 % of employees have had what they would call a toxic boss. And over half of them have had nightmares about this boss. And you know how that goes. You're out with friends, you're thinking about your boss, you're home with your family, you're thinking about your boss. and now you're lying awake at 3 a.m. and you're thinking, I need to quit. And that's an expensive problem for businesses. Not just in the lost productivity and the turnover costs, but in all the brilliant creative ideas that never rise to the surface because people were too afraid to speak up.

8:24So why is this so widespread? spread. Part of the problem is that when we rise to positions of power, we fall prey to what we call power blindness. We lose sight of how it feels to be the one with less power. And we lose sight of how our tone of voice or the quick dismissal of an idea can ruin someone's day. And just by virtue of our title, people stop telling us the truth. They don't give us the tough feedback. They don't even disagree with us. They laugh at our stupid jokes. And this creates a massive reality distortion. And I fell into that reality distortion. I fell into that real hard. So fast forward from my surgery story, and now I'm a boss.

9:21I'm 32 years old, and I'm leading a training team at the University of California at Berkeley. I have eight direct reports. We're gelling as a team. We're putting out all sorts of creative training programs. And you know what? I'm a good boss. One day, one of my employees comes into my office, and she says she wants to talk. But she's crying so hard, she can't speak. So of course I'm concerned, but I'm also a little irritated because I have this budget report due at the end of the day, and I've got to get back to it. When she finally gathers herself enough to speak, she tells me that she has been working so hard to deliver this training program, and she's invited me multiple times to come and observe.

10:17And I've been too busy to show up. And more than that, she feels like I play favorites. So now I'm thinking, holy crap, I'm the wretched boss. And that's power blindness in action. You want to talk about power blindness? Okay, let me tell you a story. I'm a storyteller. I'm also a professional consultant. I'm a professor. And I make people call me Dr. Bell. Now, that's not just ego. I have a reason. See, if there were 100 people in a room with PhDs, statistically speaking, seven of those would be black. And of those seven, four of them would be women. Black men make up 3 % of all PhDs. A black man in America is more likely to be sent to prison than have a PhD.

11:18So I make people call me Dr. Bell for the black men who will never get to become a doctor. But I also got that from my dad. See, when I was really little, I skipped a bunch of grades. And so I was always younger than everybody else around me. And I didn't really fit in and I didn't know why. And one day I'm hanging out with my dad, just me and him, and I asked him about it. And he says, listen, son, you are smart and you are black. And that is always going to make people uncomfortable. And they're not going to know what to do with that. So they're going to blame you. And I put that on like armor because I needed it to survive.

12:04And today, when people are afraid of the power that comes with that armor, Well, then they call me intimidating or arrogant, just like my dad said they would. And of course, my own brain goes, well, you ain't got to like me. I like me enough for both of us. I armor up. But that armor can make me blind to the fact that it is also covered in spikes. And it can keep people from wanting to get close to me, even when I might want them to. Like now, I manage our company staff, and I need to know how I'm landing with these young people who I adore. I don't want to be a bad boss. And so sometimes that means I have to take that armor off and be a little vulnerable, even if that makes me uncomfortable.

13:00And it makes me uncomfortable. But that's okay. There's lots to learn when you feel uncomfortable. And I bet you have your own kinds of armor too. And I'm not telling you don't wear it because sometimes we need it. But that armor is heavy. And sometimes we have to be willing to take it off, especially if we want to really see and be seen by the people we're trying to lead. So my sobbing employee, I failed to see her. But she saw me. She saw me a little too well. When she gave me that feedback, I felt this gut punch of shame. And I want to say I owned it right away. But I didn't. I did what, let's be honest, so many of us do when we get tough feedback.

13:49I blocked that shame. I built walls around me. I built a fortress of solitude. Just me and my self-justifications. Well, it was the workplace, so it was a cubicle of solitude. And from inside here, my employee, she's the problem. Her accusations of favoritism, I had a logical explanation for all of that. So inside my cubicle, what's problematic about that is outside, all sorts of bad things might be happening. People might be upset, feeling demoralized, but they can't get into these walls. So inside, I'm feeling just fine. I'm a good boss. But of course, you can't be a good boss and be that disconnected.

14:45So how do I get out of here? It starts with a healthy dose of honest self-reflection. Meet the mirror. You want to know if you have power blindness? We're going to do a little self-reflection. Now, I'm not talking about one of these little compact mirrors, by the way. People say that all the time. Oh, I have a mirror and I self-reflect all the time. This is for touch-ups. This is not a self-reflection, okay? You need a mirror, like a big old hallway mirror, like a I'm going out on Saturday night, I'm trying to check myself out mirror. You have to be able to see your whole self. when you ask yourself three very simple, very important questions.

15:34Question number one, what kind of armor are you wearing? And what does that armor give you? And what does that armor cost you? So when my employee gave me the feedback, that armor was protecting my ego, but it cost me the ability to be a good, supportive, humane boss. Question number two. Because of your position, people are going to be afraid to tell you stuff. So ask yourself, what might people be afraid to tell me? In my case, I sometimes got to take off my spiky armor because I don't want to unintentionally push away people I might care about. And question number three, the most important question of all, once you've thought about all that, what am I going to do differently?

16:28So eventually I got it and I started to show up for my employees trainings so I could give her meaningful feedback and positive recognition. And I started to carve out time to take her to lunch and get to know her as a person. And not just that, I also reached out to the other people on my team who I hadn't spent as much time with. And I got to know them as full people too. And I'll tell you, that significantly deepened the trust, the ability for us to collaborate as an entire team. And that's how you learn. That's how you avoid becoming a bad boss. Being a leader means you have an ethical obligation to break that bad boss cycle and to see the advantages your power gives you.

17:20We have this whole industry in this culture around how to survive your boss. No one should have to survive us. The power to break that bad boss cycle is in our hands. We just have to be brave enough to look in the mirror. Thank you. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.

18:06what's in your wallet terms apply see CapitalOne.com slash bank CapitalOne N.A. member FDIC Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market you can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything maybe you go for some free range self-directed investing or perhaps you pick up a few farm fresh trades while you peruse you can even get help from a dedicated advisor that's full service wealth management mix match and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place.

18:45Visit schwab.com to learn more. There's a lot people don't tell you about owning a home. And for most of us, the questions pile up a lot quicker than the answers. The costs you don't see coming, the decisions you don't feel ready to make. It all leaves you wondering, do you own your home or does it own you? I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie, and in my new podcast, Own It, I'm talking to the experts for real talk and real tips to understand what homeownership really takes. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts.

19:25That was Damie Wolfe and Christopher Bell speaking at TEDx Sonoma County. Christopher's perspective particularly resonates with me, and it helps me shed light on what happened to me all those years ago. I felt the need to put on a lot of armor, not realizing it was preventing me from being a conscientious manager to the students who are working for me. Christopher and Jamie have laid out great questions. They prompt the self-reflection anyone in a position of power needs to do. And by the way, should be done often regardless of your position. But I have one more suggestion for how to maximize this exercise.

20:03What if you shared your answers to these questions, particularly the first two, with someone you really trust? That way, there's an accountability partner who can help you keep your ego in check so this work doesn't happen in the echo chamber of your own mind. Inviting others in, particularly people who know you, believe in you, can be honest with you, and see that you're capable of change, is a way to make these lessons stick. Because no one wants to have a bad boss. And I know no one wants to be a bad boss either. That's it for today. TED Business is part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was produced by Hannah Kingfley-Ma, edited by Alejandra Salazar, and fact-checked by Julia Dickerson.

20:50Special thanks to Maria Ladias, Farah Degrunge, Daniela Ballarezzo, Tansika Sangmanivang, and Roxanne Heilash. I'm Madupa Akinola. Thanks for listening.

21:27Thank you. wallet. Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC.

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22:36Learn more at schwab.com slash teen.