Why you should stop chasing your “dream job” (w/ Emily the Recruiter) | from Fixable

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2:21Hi, everyone. it's Madhupa here. Today we're sharing an episode of a podcast we think you'll love. It's been handpicked by the TED staff and we think that as TED business listeners, you'll come away with a fresh idea and a totally new perspective. Enjoy and head to the link in the description for more. I think we all need to start operating rather with the audacity of someone who is unaware that the answer could be no. Like my biggest piece of advice is there is someone grossly underqualified, arguably bad at their job, getting a raise every single year. And you want to know why? Because they're dumb enough to ask.

3:04This is Fixable, a show where we take the problems at work that feel unfixable and prove that they're not. I'm Anne Morris, and we are back with another installment of our Purpose at Work series. Today, we're getting down to the brass tacks of how to find purposeful work and how to build a meaningful career that's connected to your purpose. Our guest today is someone who spent years in the trenches of hiring. You may know her as Emily the Recruiter on social media, where she shares practical, refreshingly honest career advice with millions of followers. Emily Durham has decoded the recruiting process from every possible angle.

3:43She's worked inside companies on the recruiting side. She's helped the job seekers knock it on the door to figure out the process. She's coached people through the biggest professional decisions of their lives. She's also the author of the fantastic new book, Clock In, No BS Advice for Getting Ahead in Your Career Without Losing Your Mind. I love her voice and her work, and I'm thrilled to welcome Emily to the show today.

4:20Emily Durham, welcome to Fixable. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. Very mutual. Congrats on your terrific new book. Thank you. I loved it. So this month on the show, we are tackling this question of purpose and how to find meaning at work. You've written that find your passion is terrible career advice. So what is wrong with passion, Emily? Oh, well, here's the thing. If you are one of the lucky few who find passion and all of your other needs met with work, oh my God, I'd love that for you. Like, that's the ideal state. But I think telling people that we have to be passionate about work is basically telling people the most interesting thing about you is what you do Monday to Friday.

5:02And I think that's really crummy. I think, you know, the way that we talk about work and fulfillment has not really adjusted with the way the world has changed around us. And one of the things I talk a lot about in my book is this Jersey Shore style metaphor or acronym rather called VPL in lieu of GTL. And VPL really stands for your validation, your purpose and your lifestyle. And I really think those are the three core needs that we need to meet with work. Because if you've got a job that meets your lifestyle, maybe the pay is fantastic. but you feel like there's no purpose and your boss doesn't validate you, treats you really crummy, you're going to hate that job sooner than later.

5:39So in lieu of chasing passion, I think we should create a life that hits our VPL, a life that we are passionate about. And at certain stages, you know, work fits into that and sometimes it doesn't and that's okay. So I love your VPL framework and purpose is there in the stack. You're just saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, these other two things also matter. Why are these distinctions important for people to really think about? I think, you know, the purpose is definitely in there. But the goal that we've kind of been raised with is we need to find that validation, that purpose, that lifestyle exclusively through work.

6:17My push is let's look at the entirety of our lives and see how work is one of those contributing factors. Because in a world like today, where companies we used to trust are now laying folks off with 6 a.m. cold emails, if all of our VPL or all of our purpose comes from work, it's even more disturbing when we get that taken away from us or when our employment situation can shift and change. So it's really about creating stability in as many pots as possible. And then is this the same reason you're skeptical of a dream job? I think so. I am. And again, if you're someone where it's like, listen, I'm working my dream job.

6:54I'm passionate about everything. Goodness gracious, I could not love that for you more than I do. But telling people that we need to hunt for a dream job, again, is tying our meaning to work. And I'm a firm believer you can't really get ahead in your career if your whole identity is tied to work. When we dream of a job, we're telling ourselves like that's the best it's ever getting. And if you get the dream job and suddenly you're not great at it or your boss kind of sucks or the job is changing, you're going to force yourself to make it work because you went to school all those years to get the job and you told your friends you had the swanky title.

7:27So I think detaching from the notion of this dream job and focusing on what does my ideal life look like and how does work fit into that gives us permission to pivot because you're going to go through phases where work is number one. And sometimes you're going to go through phases where work is maybe number four on the importance list here. And to your point, it also deepens our resilience when we're not getting everything we dreamed of getting from work. It allows us to move through those setbacks more gracefully. Yes, I kind of joke that you need to have, you know, a life that you really like to remind yourself you're not just an employee.

8:00Like the amount of times I've used to come home from work on a Monday and be like, well, that's it. I'm going to make dinner and I'm going to think about work all day. That's a really unhealthy attachment to the careers we have versus a life that is a little bit more robust in creating these moments where we find purpose outside of our nine to fives. Instead of a dream job, you argue that we should be pursuing an awake job. So talk to me about the awake job. Yes, I would argue the awake job is us taking off the rose-colored glasses. Because when you are in love with your job and it's your dream job and the best thing that's ever happened, when your boss asks you to work overtime and skip your best friend's birthday dinner, you're probably going to do that.

8:39When you get some negative feedback, You're probably going to cry about that. You're going to get those Sunday scaries a little heavier than usual. But when we shift it to the awake job, which is this job is actively fitting into my validation, my purpose, and my lifestyle. It is fulfilling my financial needs, my emotional needs. You've taken off the rose-colored glasses. You remember it's just a job. You know the positive feedback that your boss gives you is a compliment, and that's great, but it doesn't determine your value as a person. So therefore, the negative feedback doesn't either. So I encourage people to take off those rose-colored glasses, look at work for what it is, which is, frankly, a contract for you to fulfill services and create a life surrounding work so that work doesn't become everything.

9:22I'm getting this beautiful mama bear protective energy from you. You just want to send us out in the world with like the narratives about ourselves and the kind of realism and whatever the opposite of rose colored glasses are to just deal with the world of work with more realism and confidence and clear expectations. Is that a reasonable summary of your purpose? I would love to get that tattooed on my skin. That was beautiful. I would say so. Like my purpose isn't to discourage folks from being highly ambitious and wanting the next thing. That is beautiful. What I'm pushing folks to think about is how when you frame your work as one part of your life versus your whole life, you're actually going to get a lot further.

10:09So if I define my purpose, it really is just equipping people with the confidence and the tools to get ahead without it being something that keeps you up at night because God, does that feeling suck. How has your own purpose evolved over time? Like, I'm curious when you first got in touch with the clarity around the impact you wanted to go out and have in the world. A lot of it was through experimentation. And I'm such a big proponent of saying yes to the things that kind of scare you. You'll filter out some stuff you never want to do again. And then you'll filter in things where you're like, okay, I could do this.

10:42But I worked in recruitment in-house for years. And one of the major roles that I had was focusing on early career talent. So at the time, that was interns and co-ops. And what really sparked this sense of deeper purpose where I was really fulfilled, although I was incredibly overworked, which is kind of what pointed to how much I loved it, was really being the person to be able to give someone the behind the scenes of, I know you've got an interview tomorrow. Can you just make sure you ask for a little more money than you plan to? Or, you know, here's what actually needs to get done for you to get the job.

11:13And seeing how the real impacts of that, you know, was able to get candidates kind of through the process, get them into the role that changed their careers. That just really sparked this fire in me that I wanted to do at scale. And fast forward six odd years later, and that's kind of become the crux of what I do today. Fire is dangerously close to passion, Emily. Just to warn you. It is. And the beauty is like, I'm super passionate about my work, but I'm just as passionate about really good walks on the beach with my dog. So when I'm having a crummy work day, I say, okay, putting this down, I'm going to go do something else that fills me up.

11:49I'm going to go watch the Real Housewives of Rhode Island, and I'm going to take my dog on a walk. Yep. So where is purpose in your own VPL stack today? Oh, I love this. For me personally, I would say lifestyle is my lowest. Purpose is my highest and validation is in the middle, which was a little bit hard to kind of think through because validation, when you hear that, you think, well, I don't need validation from work. But the reality is like, we all do. It's really nice to be told. Oh my God, I'm desperate for validation. It's the best. There's nothing better than someone saying, wow, that really helped or wow, that was great or, you know, all of those things really matter.

12:24So for me, purpose, seeing the tangible outcomes of helping people get connected to work that matters to them, that's what fills me up. Secondary to that, it's the validation. I love going to a conference and someone saying that was a great talk. Lifestyle for me is kind of third. Like, I'm at a stage in my life. I have no dependence. I'm cool to work a little bit extra. If I have to commute a little longer, that's fine. But I anticipate as my life changes, like, those letters are going to jumble up. That's why it's so important to know how they stack now so you give yourself permission to shuffle them a little bit.

12:54You know, when I was a young pup, I was very clear that my number one driver was purpose and meaningful work. Where should, I'm hearing you that, Anne, don't put all your chips on the gig, but that was my number one focus. What other coaching would you give me in that moment as I was setting out to the world of work for the first time? I would ask you, you know, if a lot of your driving love and passion and excitement is into work, I'd love to hear why. Like, what is the outcome that feels really meaningful? Is it helping people? Is it the connection? Like, I would ask you what the source of that is and ask you then what other places in your life do you get even micro doses of that?

13:36And how can you do 5 % more of that this week? Like, I'm not saying overhaul your life, step away from work. I'm just saying if you have a really crummy day, where can you get that hit somewhere else so that you kind of are a bit more predictable in terms of how we feel during those down seasons? I love it. I love it. Let's say I'm early in my career, go back to the kind of young pup metaphor. I'm just starting out. I don't know exactly what I want, but I know that I want work to be meaningful. Let's say I have like a suspicion. I love animals. I'm passionate about like cross-species relationships.

14:12What coaching would you give me to like just start to find my way through this crazy world of work? Oh, the first thing I would tell you is how exciting that you don't know. That means you get to discover for the next little bit. Like what an exciting period. So don't beat yourself up for not having the answers. You're not supposed to, right? And I would also remind you that your meaning and your purpose can come in a bunch of different places. Sometimes the meaning and purpose is just great co-workers who also love animals. Sometimes it's the customers that you deal with. Sometimes it's your boss.

14:43Sometimes it's the company itself. So remember that your purpose doesn't have to be specifically working, let's say, at an animal rescue. It might be a company where their corporate social responsibility is giving back to wildlife and that hits scratches your itch. So keep an open mind. But if I was very early in my career, specifically in this job market, I would just focus on finding a role that gets you in the door, even if it's imperfect. And then let's put those purpose chips somewhere else. I know that sounds incredibly pessimistic, but the reality is the job search right now is rough. Let's keep our options open.

15:16I love that you underlined working with a team or collaboration as something that can fit into purpose for people. I feel like we think about purpose traditionally in this very narrow way where, you know, I want to go and change this about the world. I love that for people. I loved that for myself. It was a deep source of meaning for me. I can imagine how this fits into some of your frameworks, but they're top-down value. Like, I was passionate about global health. I was passionate about democracy. I was passionate about entrepreneurship, like helping people start businesses in environments where that was difficult.

15:56All those high-level missions meant a lot to me. What a brutal insight in my own life was that that was not enough. My daily experience of going to work also mattered tremendously to my level of engagement and satisfaction. What was I literally doing when I came to, like, who was I talking to? what was the activity? Was I doing with other people? Was I doing it by myself? All those things were just as important, if not more, this was the dirty little secret, if not more than this top-down mission. And I'm wondering how you see that kind of friction show up in your work and how you coach people through it.

16:35It's really difficult. And I think those are the things you only really recognize when you're in the moment being like, okay, something's feeling off and where is that coming from? I think it's really important when you are experiencing resistance at work and in your career where something is feeling off, spend the time. Sometimes it's just 15 minutes and I'm talking no music, no distractions, just bullet note. What am I feeling? I'm feeling isolated. I'm feeling like, you know, my team either doesn't exist or doesn't have my back. And I think the way that we think about dream jobs is so tied to the work in the company that we forget all of the little accoutrements.

17:11It's the people, It's the, you know, what is the lifestyle associated with this work? How does this work make me feel? So sitting down with yourself and really bullet pointing out what am I feeling and where is this coming from to specifically name these things is so important. But I also think it's important to ask yourself in my ideal life, what are the things that would satisfy me and go into very, very, very specific detail, everything from the mission of the work that you do, so that top-level stuff, all the way down to what time do you roll into the office? Is there an office? Are there co-workers?

17:45How many? You know, what city are we operating within? And when you look at your pie-in-the-sky ideal life, you're going to immediately see, oh wait, I am so far off from what actually fills me up. Something's got to give. And it's interesting, in my own career, I also thought I was very mission-driven by the work itself. The reality is I couldn't find a job in what I was targeting, right? No one was hiring me into an employment law firm when that was not even my major. I ended up taking a job at a big bank. I was like, this work doesn't feel meaningful. I'm in investment banking. It's money, money, money.

18:20But where I ended up kind of sitting with myself and finding that purpose was on the individual level. I had a really great boss. I had really good teams. I had great employee resource groups. So I shifted that meaning temporarily until I later found work that scratched kind of both of those itches. But sitting with yourself to think about the macro and the micro is so important because over time, your needs are going to change. And the busier that life gets, sometimes you care a little bit less about the macro mission of the company and care a little bit more about the person you speak to six hours a day in the office.

18:51Yeah. And I love your guidance to pay attention to your own emotions as data to inform some of these questions. The advice I sometimes give people is pay attention to what's really weird about you. Like, what do you like to do that none of your peers like to do? Like what, because so much of our behavior is socially influenced. And so when we really use some of those emotional tokens to do something really different from the crowd, I think there's also a lot of data in those choices as well. I love finding your weird. I think that's, it's incredible. It's, and that ends up being like your superpower at work.

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22:09Many of our listeners are mid-career or even later. They've checked the box on the V and the L, kind of where you are in some ways, it sounds like, and now they really want to lean into purpose. What advice would you give them on navigating that pivot? Yeah, I think there's two things to think about in this. So the first is, is it possible to get that purpose in your current job? And I'm assuming we're happy in our current jobs, by the way, just because we've hit two of the three. We're restless. Okay, we're ready for the next thing. We're ready for the next thing. I love that. So I think this is the first question.

22:43Can I get that purpose in this job? That might mean, and for many of us it means, joining an employee resource group in a position of leadership. Maybe you're joining the Women Leadership Organization, a mentorship org. Maybe you're leading the corporate social responsibility. you'd be surprised how much that scratches the itch of, wow, I'm doing something. The power of mentoring someone, especially mid or late career, is one of the most rewarding things in the world. Seeing how you have built someone from early to confident is so important. That can be an incredible way to do this. Can your role expand?

23:19Can the clients that you serve expand? All of that is something worth asking. And a great way to do this is to first sit with yourself and think, in a perfect world, what could I get from this job that would take me to a happier place? If you do have an answer, speak to your boss. Have that conversation. Frame it as, I'm looking to expand my purpose because I love working here. They're going to have your back if they're a great boss. And if they're not, well, then there's our answer. Let's find something else. So first thing is, let's focus on the job at hand. Before you move on to the second one, I just want to underscore that because a lot of us come to work with a lot of our own security demons.

23:56And I see particularly late in career just falling back on this habit of I need this job. For a lot of people, it means safety, security, like a sense of well-being, a sense of confidence in the future. Deeply respect all of those things. But when you're at the point where you are getting restless because you want something more, it means you are willing to make a different kind of risk security tradeoff, which is such an exciting moment in a life and a career. And this is the punchline where you have nothing to lose because you're already starting to fantasize about walking away. So before you do that, let's find out what other ways you might be able to get meaning from your current job.

24:41I love that. And I think, you know, there's often so much fear in saying like, well, I don't want my boss to think I'm not interested in my work. If you frame it around. That's old you. That's an old memory and old muscles around security. Yeah, exactly. Like that is our fear based reaction. If you frame this as I'm looking to expand my purpose because I love this work, you're going to be fine. There's something to be said for security. And I'm not saying we never leave our jobs. Because option two is, let's say you have this conversation with your boss and you're like, I'm not getting what I need here.

25:11Or maybe the company you're at makes this pretty impossible. That's when you have kind of two routes you can take. Route number one, maybe you start applying for jobs that are a bit more aligned to what you're looking for. Perhaps it is some of their social responsibility initiatives, the mission of the company, perhaps the customers that they serve. You know, you go that job search path. But there's a third path that sometimes we forget about. Let's say your current job is not going to give you what you need. Where can you volunteer? Where can we take it outside of work? And this is where I think about that restlessness, that purpose.

25:44It's about the sum of our life, not just work itself. how can you go mentor someone outside of work volunteering um even you know it might be creative endeavors like that is such an underrated means of satisfaction that you can or choose not to monetize both are options so it doesn't need to be i'm looking for something next let's quit my job i think when we start to think of our career as a part of a pizza pie instead of like the whole deep dish you start to realize there's a lot more options right and then we get to play and have a bit more fun. All right. Let's say I have done, I've followed your wise counsel and I have reached a confident conclusion that I need to quit my job.

26:24So how do I skillfully walk away? What is Emily, the recruiter's advice on how to gracefully quit a job? Yes. And there is a wrong way to do this. So this is a great question to ask. So my personal perspective is unless this job is causing meaningful impact and negative impact on your mental health and your wellness, please do not quit until you have something else lined up. This market is slow. I'm talking six, seven, eight, nine months to find a job. Unless you have financial cushion to do so, I'm a big believer in let's try to make this job work until we find something else just from a security perspective.

27:00But as far as the actual leaving this job, like let's say you've got an offer in hand or the money to kind of fund this. The last thing you want to do is leave people on a sour note. So what you're going to do is book a one-on-one meeting with your boss. People say, never do this on a Monday, never do this on a Friday. Who cares you're quitting? This is fine. Book it when you find out that you're leaving this job. You only do this when there's an offer in hand. Never if it is verbal. Although verbal offers are legally binding, they are rarely honored. So unless you've got it in writing, friend, you've got nothing.

27:33You go into your boss, you book a 15-minute meeting, you call it career touchpoint, you do it right in the morning. Oh, career touchpoint. They're going to know. They're going to know what's up. You sit down with them and you start off with the positives. I wanted to pull you in. Sorry for the last minute meeting. I absolutely have loved this work, even if you haven't. You've been an incredible mentor, even if they haven't, right? Like we soften, we butter it up. And you say, I wanted to let you know I have been approached by another company. You never say that you've applied. We've interviewed and I've been given an offer that would be really meaningful for my career.

28:07And this is where you have two powerful options. You can either say the offer is great. Here's the number. I would love to stay. Is there anything you can do to make me stay? That's one option. If you're open to staying there, if you're done, you don't want it. You say, I've been given an offer. That's great for my career. It was impossible to say no to. I want to let you know I have signed the offer and I want to work with you on what my roll off plan will be. And that's where you guys get to decide. You know, what's your tenure? How long are you staying? Et cetera, et cetera. Typically, it's two weeks, not much more than that.

28:37But you have the option to say, would you like to pay me to stay, friend? Because let me see what you could do. I've heard some provocative data around differences between men and women approaching these conversations. What have you seen? And does your advice change here, depending on, you know, the identity of the person you're advising? So like, shockingly, I would say no, my advice doesn't change because I think we all need to start operating rather with the audacity of someone who is unaware that the answer could be no. Like my biggest piece of advice is there is someone grossly underqualified, arguably bad at their job, getting a raise every single year.

29:16And you want to know why? Because they're dumb enough to ask. And there are demographic tendencies to that audacity. Oh, I always say operate with the confidence of the most mediocre white man you have ever encountered. And it really, like, it does hit. So, like, my advice is pretty simple for all folks, because I also think, you know, regardless of gender identity, there's a lot of different factors that influence how confident we feel in these conversations. The reality is the worst thing they're going to say is no, and nothing changes. And, you know, you hear people talk about, well, what if they take my job offer away?

29:47That is a very, very rare occurrence. And if that is the case. They have just exposed. They are a grossly toxic work environment. It doesn't feel like a blessing now, but it will very soon. Are you seeing any generational differences in terms of how people relate to purpose? There's a story out there that younger workers care more about meaning and purpose. And is that lining up with your experience? It's interesting. Like, yes and no, which I feel as though is a crummy answer, but is my answer. So when I think of millennials, like elder millennials and generations older than that, a lot of us were raised with purpose at the forefront of our work, but we were also raised under the guise of hustle culture, where working those heavy hours was something to be really proud of.

30:31And in many ways, it is. We've accomplished so much, but we've also now seen that the loyalty that we gave to companies isn't really giving us the return on investment we were told it would. So Gen Z has grown up seeing their older their siblings, and their parents devote their lives to work and just to get laid off in a 6am cold email, as all folks are sending these days. So Gen Z has a really different relationship to work. And I've seen those studies, which is so interesting, that say, you know, Gen Z is very purpose-driven, which I agree. But I would argue Gen Z sees through the corporate fluff so quickly.

31:07Their rose-colored glasses, they haven't even, they're not even in the shelf. They are unaware that those exist. They are not offering blind loyalty to companies. They are diversifying their streams of income. Their corporate trust is very low. So although they are incredibly purpose-driven, largely because they have nonstop access to information about global atrocities and things that are happening around us, I think Gen Z's purpose is coming from a sense of their internal needs versus work exclusively. And what I mean by that is Gen Z looks at their career as a business, not as a linear career.

31:41They're looking at a nine to five, but many of them have struggled to find work. So they've got like a part-time, a nine to five, a side hustle. The purpose comes from the sum of those. So they're an incredible generation. I hate all of the Gen Z slander. I think their approach to work is fabulous. I couldn't agree more. And I think they're going to make all of us better in the workplace.

32:15This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire can cost you time, money, and momentum. A good hire, they can help grow your business. But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit. That's why LinkedIn built HiringPro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you, so instead of sorting through applications, you can spend your time talking to candidates who are actually a good fit. With HiringPro, you can hire with confidence knowing you're getting the best talent for your business.

32:58In fact, according to LinkedIn, those hiring with LinkedIn are 24 % less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash tedbiz, spelled B-I-Z. Terms and conditions apply.

34:08We'll be right back.

34:22So I'd love to play a few questions from our listeners who are deep in a lot of these questions, and I'd love to get your take on them. Oh, I would love that. All right, this first question breaks my heart. My name is Sarah. I am a psychotherapist in private practice and have just reached a wall of disillusionment about this field. I have nothing but respect and honor and gratitude for the heart of the work. I would love nothing more than to pivot out of this. I have invested so much time and energy and education and training to do what I do and I'm very good at it. but I am feeling like there's nowhere else to go.

35:08So I am just having a moment of, does any of this matter? And where do I go from here? So Emily, let me tee this up a little bit, just that we hear some version of this a lot. I thought, I've put in all this work, I thought I would be jumping out of bed in the morning and now I feel some version of my throat closing every time I go to work. One question I have as we try to help Sarah is, you know, how do we distinguish feelings of burnout from my boss sucks from I've just picked the wrong career entirely? It seems like she's jumped to the last one, but I'm wondering if there might be these other factors involved.

35:52For sure. Sarah, I just want to give you a hug, first of all. Like, you just deserve the biggest hug, my friend, and your feelings are incredibly valid. And just to be clear, if we end up landing on that this is not the right career path for you, please understand that's not a failing. This is the first leg of your career, right? Like it's allowed to pivot and change. Where I think let's start with, to your point, is figuring out if this is misalignment in the job, burnout, or like a situational burnout because they are kind of different, right? So a really good way to test where this pain is coming from is figuring out when you feel the worst about work, right?

36:29Good rule of thumb is if you feel the worst about work on Sunday night and you're thinking about work and it's specifically about how much you have to do and the overwhelm and I don't know how I'm going to get through this week, that's probably a good sign it's a workload burnout. That's fixable. That means that we shift how many patients we're taking. Perhaps we hire someone on the admin side. That is fixable. If your kind of stress and anxiety is, yes, still coming on Sunday night, but it's about people. and those Sunday scaries get a little bit worse Monday morning because you go, oh God, I have to run into this person and deal with this person.

37:04That's usually a sign the organization that you're working at isn't incredible. Now, I know you're at a private practice, so it might vary how many people you do or don't work with. But if you're getting those scaries that amplify heading into Monday morning, usually a good sign it's partly the environment around us. And sometimes it's a combination of both. The good news is both of those are fixable. If it feels like that's where the pain is coming from. That's workload management. That's adjusting how we work. Maybe we take more remote patients. There's fixes for that. The third thing is, do you feel the most drained in the 10 minutes between patients or the 10 minutes between meetings?

37:41If you sit there and you go, God, I have to do this again, that's usually a sign it is in fact the work. And you can sit there and kind of journal through and write through how you're feeling, but those are really good spot checks. It sounds like you might be in that third bucket, but always good to pressure test to make sure that's where it's coming from. To be clear, you are not stuck. It's going to feel like you're stuck because right now, every time you open up your phone, there's constant loops of bad news about the job market. And, you know, it's hard to move from here to there, but let's focus on the reality.

38:10The reality is you've just invested in transferable skills that so few people have. Do you know how many organizations will want someone with a psychology background, a deep psychology background, who are mental health tech startups, who are large technology companies who study the behavior of their customers as part of their user experience teams, who are people looking to hire you on as a consultant to build up their own private practices. You are not stuck. So what I would encourage is sit down and think about the stuff that energizes you about work. What are the little moments where you're like, okay, I can handle this.

38:45Is it the feeling of helping a patient? Maybe you'll be getting to consulting to bring other people's practices to scale. Maybe you get into education. Maybe that feels really good. Is it the other elements of this that you love? Is it building out the development plans for someone? What about adult learning? Organizations hire learning and development all the time. One of the core requirements, adult psychology and adult learning. So you are not stuck. Let's just have a little bit of fun with what your options are. And you've got lots of opportunity here to play. So don't feel like you're pigeonholed.

39:17You are not. But give yourself a chance to breathe and grieve because all the feelings you're feeling are going to make things feel a lot more gray than they are. You've got a lot of really exciting stuff ahead of you. We just need to breathe through it. Emily Durham, you are so fucking good at your job. Thank you. I love what I do. That was 10 out of 10. Magnificent. Thank you. Well, Sarah's just got so much fabulous in her. Like, can you imagine? Think of the world ahead of you with all of this, and there's nothing worse than the feeling of, oh God, this is my life forever. But once you're on the other side, think of the story you get to tell people.

39:49Two things I really loved, just breaking up your experience of work into these more micro moments and getting more reliable data to figure out what is it. Because these feelings are so big, and I really feel Sarah's pain. These are really big feelings, and the conclusions are really big. And I think the moment that I really am curious about for her is that moment when she's in front of patients, and she's doing the work that she came to do, which is really playing this catalytic role in another human's evolution. But as you said, there's so many other places that she can use the muscles that she has built in preparing to do this work.

40:28And it's never wasted. It's going to feel like it is, but it never is. In the moment, it's going to feel wasted. And then, you know, you hear about the careers of some of the most interesting and successful people on the planet, and they've had four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten different careers, right? So this isn't a failing. The investment you've made in your education has just given you the most unique skills toolbox in the world. And now we get to figure out how you get to be the coolest candidate in the universe with those unique skills to take you to that next place. You are not stuck, friend.

40:58You're almost never stuck. You're so good at this. Oh, thank you. This next one is from Kaylee, who our producing team talked to following her graduation at NYU. Congratulations, Kaylee. Congrats. I would say just in general, as a new grad, how can we express our mission and values first at the forefront of an interview and so that we know like right out the gate that we're starting out together in alignment. When's a good time to start having those talks and that conversation? Yeah, when do we break it to our employers that we are looking for some psychic income as well here? How and when should we tell them?

41:37I love this. I think this is another one where we can take this to be slightly lower stakes. First of all, congratulations on your graduation, you icon. Love this for you. I would definitely say this doesn't need to be a sit down conversation. This doesn't need to be like, oh, we're going steady style chat. This doesn't have to be a my values are this. How does that work for you? The best way to do this is let's optimize your LinkedIn profile. So this is already obvious. So in your about me section on your LinkedIn, include one sentence that is I'm passionate about and insert three things that are values driven.

42:12It might be human connection, corporate social responsibility, whatever it might be. Then when you get into interviews, when they say, tell me about yourself, because we know Lord knows they will, you're going to end up including this in your answer. So the best formula for that, tell me about yourself is one to two sentences for, you know, who you are and what you do, what you're looking for and why you're interested in this job. At any point in those, you can include one sentence that says, I was really interested in this role because I saw that your company is deeply passionate about developing and investing women in tech, that's something that's always been really important to me.

42:47All it takes is one sentence to call out your values, and that's it, right? The other things you can do is less about telling them, more about what you tell them by asking. What do you do in terms of? Insert the thing you're passionate about. How does the company navigate? Insert some of the things that matter. What do employee resource groups look like? You can often tell a lot about a company's values by how they answer these questions, but I'm going to give a little tough love. A recruiter's job is to sell, right? You know, they're never going to tell you, oh, we don't care about that. Oh, honey, the animals, we don't, oh, if all the koalas drop tomorrow, we wouldn't lose sleep.

43:23Like, so you're never going to get 100 % honesty. But if you pitch yourself to say, these are my values, they can quietly pull back if needed. But if you're really wanting to make sure this company is a good fit for you, let's go to Glassdoor. Let's go to Fishbowl. Let's see what the real tea is with what people are saying. Because you can take a lot of what a recruiter says honestly and a little bit with a grain of salt. And I'm not saying recruiters are liars. I am one. But the reality is if you were coming to buy a pair of shoes, I wouldn't tell you how uncomfortable the shoes are because I would be bad at my job.

43:55So we just need to do a little bit of supplemental research. Yeah. Including with other people who work at the company who may not be part of this sales process. A hundred percent. There's nothing wrong with asking to speak to someone who's currently in role, even asking questions about like attrition and creeping on LinkedIn, how long people have been there. Usually if a company has decent values, people stick around, right? And if that's not the case, it is something to pay attention to. Yeah, great. I love that. All right, Emily, some final questions. It is a rough job market out there, as you've referenced throughout this conversation.

44:29Lots of unknowns, lots of fear, lots of caution from employers, AI freaking everybody out. Give our listeners an Emily the Recruiter pep talk on how to navigate this moment. So the most powerful thing about knowing that this job market is a dumpster fire is giving yourself permission to realize it's not you. It's probably not your resume. It's probably not the fact that you're an imperfect interviewer, whatever that means. Give yourself permission to realize this is how you and thousands, hundreds of thousands really, of other candidates are operating in the system. So this is not a reflection of you.

45:07That relieves a lot of anxiety and a lot of guilt. Here's what I will say. Nothing is forever. Things will eventually correct. Are they going to correct in the next couple of years? Probably not. Nope. But what we can do is adjust our job search strategy so that we are not playing a different game with the same rules that we did a few years ago. And I think that's where I've seen the most transformation with people is let's adjust our strategy for the market around us. Let's remember that this isn't a reflection of us and let's over-index on community. If you're struggling to find work, now's a great time to reach out to people you went to school with.

45:43There's no shame in asking for that help, having those conversations. But my big underlining pep talk is it's going to feel long and painful and it's not going to be fun and none of it is your fault. We get to accept that it sucks. And we get to do our best to try to mitigate getting that job as quickly as possible, but not a reflection of you. And wow, what a horrible, horrible chapter in history our kids are going to have to study one day. And you get to say you were a part of it. You know, maybe that's a silver lining. I love your advice to tell a skillful and productive story about your experience.

46:17It is, I can tell you from the other side, the muscle that is going to be most important to you as you navigate your career. Because our default is going to put us at the center and it's all our fault and we screwed this up in some way. And it's not helpful and it's not accurate. And so if we can really push on those dimensions and give our own selves a productive framework for how we're experiencing this moment, the dividend is not just about getting through this, but it is also about managing setbacks for the rest of your life. 100%. And like the little tip I would give is think about your career like a business, not like a career.

46:56So if you're really struggling to find that perfect nine to five job, it's totally fine to take on, you know, two part time jobs that equal one full time job. Like remember that there are no rules left to play. There are no rules on what your career has to look like. There are no rules on what success does or doesn't look like. All that matters is that you are happy with your life and the lights are on. That is the only thing that matters. You don't need to have the swanky consulting job to be a highly successful, meaningful person. Yeah, I love that. Just a quick PSA, nobody knows what's going to happen.

47:29And the human animal does not like this. So we're all trying to replace this experience of uncertainty with certainty, including every single journalist writing every single headline and every single person talking about what's going to happen to jobs and to our children's jobs. And we actually don't know how this is going to play out. And so I really want to push back on the narrative that is out there that all of our hopes and dreams are going to be destroyed by this technological disruption. We actually don't know. And the thing is, you know, you see a lot of folks compare this to like the dot-com boom and all of these things.

48:07That same sense of uncertainty existed at that time, but we didn't have TikTok to talk about it all day. So if this is feeling heavy, It's allowed to. It's scary. It's disruptive. You're also allowed to log off and take some space because if your for you page is anything like mine, every other video is, here's how the world's on fire today. And that can feel really heavy in a period that already kind of sucks. Yeah, yeah, exactly. What's one thing our listeners can do this week to find more purpose at work? Oh, I would actually say, write down in a full sentence the moment in work this week that makes you feel the most alive and just figure out how you can double it.

48:45And it might've been talking a little crap with your coworker about that TV show you're both watching. Maybe you book a team lunch. It's allowed to be that too. So just figure out the stuff that makes you feel 5 % more alive. Figure out how we can do that twice next week too. Love it. Finally, a question we ask all our guests, What are you currently fixated on outside of work? Two things. I've already mentioned it, but one thing about me, I'm unwinding with reality TV. I am obsessed with the new franchise, The Real Housewives of Rhode Island. It is cinematic masterpiece. These women are wild. Specifically, I would say the second thing I'm obsessed with is one of the women in the show is very averse to driving.

49:26And she has a quote that I have now been carrying with me throughout my days. And she goes, with her like thick, gorgeous Rhode Island accent, she goes, I'm a really bad driver. She goes, driving's really hard for me. I have to eat a cracker at every stoplight because one time I ran over a woman. And the scene kept going. And just like that, our lives can keep going too. You want to talk about resilience? Let's talk about Alicia from The Real Housewives of Rhode Island. She's going to be our mascot in these trying times. She's fabulous. I love it. Emily, you are awesome. How can our listeners get even more of you after hearing this episode?

50:02Thank you so much. You can find me everywhere online at Emily the Recruiter. So that's Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. You can listen to my podcast Clock In wherever you get your shows. And most recently, you can pick up my debut career advice book Clock In. No BS advice for getting ahead in your career without losing your mind. Listeners, a fixable do all of those things. Run, don't walk. Thank you, Emily. Thank you.

50:28If you're enjoying this show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

50:40Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris. And me, Frances Frye. This episode was produced by Trina Menino. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloresso, and Roxanne Heilash. Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard.

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