184. How to Build a Premium Brand (without luck) ft. Ross Mackay

43:42Five day shipping, kind of expensive. You need to order 12 as a minimum. You're now going to go to Target. So I'm going to bring an incremental customer into the store. If I can multiply that scale, it's going to add like unit dollars per store per week to the set. And Margaret in Minneapolis is going to be pretty happy with me. She's going to expand my distribution, add in a new flavor. Boom. Next. The other thing is, is brand. So you have to be able to have the right and it's kind of a chicken and egg because with distribution comes awareness right because everyone you know an end cap in in target like the end situation where you see these brand displays get us about 40 to 70 million people walk past it a quarter find me a shopper tactical hacker guy on twitter that can get me 40 to 70 million organic views a month that's crazy max was telling Max Ching was telling us all about the, when he got into Target, they're like, Max, I'd really like you to be at the end cap.

44:38He goes, super excited about that. And they're like, it's going to be an extra 50 ,000 per store. He's like, more, more, more. A fit out for an end cap, if it's done right, it could be 500 bucks. We're doing 4 ,000 end caps in July. Wow. It's like$3 million of fit out fees. Wow. Wow. Fit out fees. And that's just kind of the price of rice. Yeah. Just play the game. the game but it's like i'll fatter into like okay when you when you look at the opportunity in a store i don't know how tactical want to go into it but i'm basically saying okay buyer margaret what is my competition selling every single week and she'll give you that data so i know that this can if i forecast it will sell eight units a week per store multiplied by 4 000 stores i have four skews it'll be some cannibalization because people are not going to buy all four they're going to buy you know opt in to buy one or two maybe and then i'm going to build a business case for that business.

45:27So how much am I going to potentially achieve from a base case and an upside case? If this goes really well and freaking Joe Rogan starts to talk about it, I'm going to have a higher base case. But I build my marketing spend and what I can afford to do based on my base. And I'll do that over, let's say, a 12-month period. So I know the business is going to bring me in$3 million of gross sales based on my wholesale price into distribution. And I'm going to probably spend around 20 % trade. I'm going to take that$3 million, spend 20 % of that$600 to grand on building the awareness. So all the influencers going into Target and like, come with me as I buy my first hydration brand at Target.

46:03And we're going to 5 ,000 of those. And then we're going to do all sorts of shit. So when you go into, you mentioned a lot of different stores, there's CVS, there's HEB, right? Is there a chance that one of them doesn't do what you think it could do? Right. And then what happens with that? Do you lose that relationship if it doesn't sell very well? Do they put you to the bottom? And then slowly you're like, fuck, we didn't make it in this store. We didn't do what we were supposed to do. And now we got to focus on this other one. Like, what is that like? Yeah, a hundred percent. It definitely has happened to us before.

46:32I've lost one account in my last business. We weren't performing right. Looking back at it, my consumer wasn't there. We took the opportunity, but you know, we didn't invest into it and my customer wasn't there. As I think about cadence, you know, we're probably taking on a lot of costs. You can probably take on one to two retailers a year. I don't know what the number is. There'll be someone who's smarter than me will tell us um whereas i'm also i'm a i'm a believer that this category is expanding so quickly i mean you turn on your phone today there's hydration hydration hydration hydration creating creating creating hydration hydration and like i have an early mover advantage with a great liquid great relationships and well-funded business where i can kind of feel that i can just go at it and fix it as i build you know and that's different if i'm entering the coconut water market, like chances are, it's a little bit harder for me right now.

47:22There's brands that are doing tens of millions of dollars a week in categories, Ezekiel, et cetera, Cult. And, you know, you probably have to be more methodical because you're not going to displace a brand that's doing well. There's not really that many hydration carbonated beverages that taste like your favorite soda right now. So we kind of doing something unique and we have the ability to basically take that business, build a team around it and make sure we execute. But the point is, yes, it's nervous. It's definitely nervous. So that's where it comes in to building the brand and the marketing.

47:55Does your pitch change as you go to different retailers or is it relatively the same? You know, within reason, eight out of 10 is the same spiel. You know, most retailers want to know a little bit about how you're going to add incrementality to their category. They've got Gatorade willing to pay them. To not have you in. Yeah, honestly. um wow he's getting nervous yeah we call yourself a midgie biter uh-huh you know you take a little bit off that you know like like like we're not a shark right we're a midgie bite mosquito was that what you call it yeah yeah yeah you know you're in the room and there's like you know that's what we are you know um and those are obviously browns that have become sharks like ollie pop and the guys at poppy and they've started to become a threat so they get acquired We're definitely not a threat to anyone right now.

48:42But, you know, yeah, we have to build a strong presentation for a retailer. The number one thing that you can do for a retailer to get them excited to bring your product in is data. So if you launch at the local shop, you say, well, we are outselling this brand that you already have in my local shop. Oh, okay, that's pretty cool. And you magnify that now where I turn around and say, hey, in vitamin shop, I'm performing better than most of the major brands in those fridges. The brands that are owned by the big guys, Celsius, et cetera. So I turned around to the retailers and I say, my melon berry in GNC is the third best selling out of 40 brands.

49:29My citrus and cola in the vitamin shop is top 10 out of 50 brands. So then I'm taking that data and I'm turning around to buyer X, Margaret, and I'm saying, you don't have this. And in those stores, they're making all this money. You want some of that too? Okay, we'll bring you in. She doesn't compete with Vitamin Shoppe. It's not like you're sitting there and you're like, am I going to go to Ralph's or Vitamin Shoppe? They're completely different consumers and they're completely different decisions. So you try and add value. And then also the last thing I'll say is you try and give retailers different opportunities, case sizes, flavors, something you don't have that they don't have, et cetera.

50:07It was very conscious too. I mean, I can't really think of many melonberry things I've ever had, honestly. I can't really think of many things. That's because we're like gelato, not ice cream. Talk to them now. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Luxury. Luxury. We're$2 luxury. I like that, man. Yeah, that's how conscious was that? It's kind of like a tagline. We are$2.50. We're$2.50 luxury. this can feels premium as fuck the branding's on point I feel expensive right now I'm going to walk to the airport on Thursday people are going to be asking where'd you get that? I might sneak this through TSA they might not even know it's meme culture right?

50:49You know the white monster memes? you see a guy in a white monster you know what he is I used to drink that shit in college I'll crush a white monster I got nothing to go with whenever the UK white style it's different they don't have other stuff But like, I'm obsessed with the consumer. I'm obsessed. I know what that guy pays for rent. I know what he had for dinner. Like, it says so much about you, what you drink. You know, like the guy that drinks the 42 on ice. Or the guy that's drinking the grill of mine. I'm like, whoa, man. But it's true, right? Holy shit, dude. Yeah, the big energy. I'm like, brother, hey, keep it chill, man.

51:24Be nice to the guy that's drinking the bang, dude. But like, jokingly, you know where he trains. You know what his split is. you just know when you see a guy or girl because we have a really strong female audience which i think is part of the strategy here and you know very no this is unisex 100 you see those other drink cans and you don't want to be carrying it we get like 200 to 250 tag pictures a day on social we're a year old dude y 'all are like road man was it bumped up with the with new york oh new york was crazy i had i didn't go actually because first question you asked about what I'm focused on I just don't induce distraction I'm not going to go because it's too busy it's too much noise and I'm not the guy like I got my team like they're going to be I'm not I don't need to be at all that and razzmatazz and the run clubs and I like we do it but like I got Cam I got Alex I got Herc I got the squad there Will will show up handsome motherfucker like you know like I'm in the P &L I'm like figuring this can printing issue out so I didn't go because it's like a bit of a distraction.

52:30It was one of the busiest weeks for us as a company. You bring up data though, and how important that is when you're pitching retailers. Is there something that is almost harder to track, but makes you feel or believe that you're on the right track? For example, getting tagged in an Instagram post or like seeing your product on a flat lay for the marathon as opposed to some like another company? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had the mission. I used X a lot and I said like a year ago that I wasn't reposting anyone who used our first product can because I could see too many other brands on the flatly fast forward New York it was just like dude the roads were covered in cadence Jeff like covered I got people messaging me like what the hell happened and flat lays all over being like gel bar sachet bottle can it was kind of sick um you know am I gonna go around saying like we were 250 tags this day, like buy our business, you know, like, but anyone who's smart enough where you're, who you're selling that to is primarily probably an investor.

53:33Sure. And you're like, we're building this community. We're building a cult. You know, we got like 40, 50 people with the daily discipline tattoo. Daily discipline is our tagline. Wow. It's kind of our version of like another brand down in Austin to have their tagline. It's tattooed on my arm here. And I think we put a tweet being like anyone who has it, I'll fuel them for a year. And we got like 60, 60, 65 people who I had to tattoo. So like early indicators that you're creating a movement and a lifestyle brand that people want to be associated to. That is so, so interesting. Yeah. That's, that's like, um, that's the hardest thing to do is like, yeah, the cult, like you're building a movement.

54:11You can't fake it. No. I just like, you know, I just, we don't like, you know, we don't know each other that well, but like we really like George and like me and there's nothing fake about it. you know like you don't we don't have to try that hard we really do it like he he called me and like bro i'm running at like 350 this morning i'm like bro that's too real like i'm gonna go at 450 so like this concept of like on a mission daily discipline guys now i think the modern influencer you know is um inspiring through different means whereas before it was like who's partying the hardest and like who's popping the biggest bottles at the club and 11 in miami and now when you think about who you're influenced by like i'm influenced by the dad who's got a couple hundred mil in the bank and he's got some shredded abs and a hot wife like those are the and some drip and some drip i'm sorry to sound like that guy but when i like turn like times have changed i think people are influenced by different things so when i think about how we built the community it's because we you know i think a fundamental there's times have shifted between what the young man or woman want in their life and it is fitness and it's hydration and it's performance and its aspiration being fit is also i think a sign that someone is it's disciplined someone that someone that cares they give a fuck there's like it is not easy to be fit there's a requirement there yes you when you when you see someone that is fit that's someone you want to do business with that's someone you want your corner you're like i know that this person goes the extra mile with like little details the dues have been paid 100 yeah it's a fair sport in the world your body other than people who have health issues yes totally eradicate that from the conversation i don't want to get canceled yeah um but like factually speaking how you look is economic circumstances i understand that but like totally me and you same everything like we have the same opportunities i can go for one you can go for one we can eat chicken and rice whatever you want to eat in your life count your calories like it's a pretty fair it's not opinion based sport business is an opinion based sport you like that you don't you're a decision maker okay, you're not, I go up, I go down.

56:16Whereas like how you look generally is a pretty even keel. It's a pretty even sport. And I like those odds where you can control things. When you think about your marketing though, I want to get into like, because we've talked about the branding of the actual can. The branding of cadence itself and the marketing, your guys' campaigns are fucking next level. The actual content is second to none. How do you think about that from, I know you said you're like not crazy in the weeds of it, but like when it comes to doing new campaigns, launching new products, like the content that you guys are putting out on social media, your website, how do you think about that to allow you to create a cult like audience and a culture around your brand?

57:01Yeah, I would say I definitely spend more time than I should on it. I love it. It's like my favorite part of the business. And I work closely with Alex, who I have to give most of the credit for. Alex Lopez, who's our creative director and has a great pulse on where we want to take the vision of the brand. I think what's also important is I work so closely with him so he can soak up where my vision is for the brand. And I think any people who have a pair like that, you have to work simultaneously because you have to work in tandem. We do a lot of storytelling. I think in a world of maximalism and consumerism where everyone's trying to sell you everything on an ad, on a discount, on AI generated like best in the world, we've kind of taken a different approach.

57:45And we think that inspiration, aspiration comes from storytelling. For us, it was through athletes, individuals running the fastest marathons in the world, individuals running across the country. And what's the brand who did that the best? Red Bull. There's no pictures of their can. Everyone talks about that on their social media. They have people jumping out of planes or off buildings or BMX is doing 500 flips, you know, whatever. And we took a lot of inspiration from that and say, OK, let's step away from the product. Let's look at who we want to appeal to and what they're interested in. My consumer wants to watch Will Gooch run across Australia.

58:15And then he fuels with cadence. So naturally we integrate product, but through storytelling. And that's always been kind of how we wanted to position the brand front and forward that we really don't have a lot of pictures of our can on Instagram. Not specifically because we won't do it, just because we want to differentiate yourself in a crowded category of people who are just constantly selling you what they have to offer you. In addition, I'm surrounded with people who just have a creative pulse. George and the guys there and Caesar and Alex and kind of live in the world of fashion and luxury.

58:47So something that has always been important. And I go back to the fact that it's all you've really got in the end is your brand. So, yeah, if you become a me too, just become, you know, a race to the bottom on price. What were some of these bottlenecks that popped in as the brand has scaled that were really important that we had to fix to keep growing and keep excelling? That would save a founder from a lot of headache? I mean, the hardest thing in a business when you're scaling from zero to 10 or one to 10 million, I think, is demand planning. So I'm going to go and make my minimum of these and they're going to last me till here.

59:27And then I'm going to probably use that cash in order again, you know, here. The issue is, if you sell out here, you didn't demand plan right. So we didn't forecast how many cans. and consistently for about the last 365 days, we've not been in stock for 200 days on our website because we continuously sell out. I think that's a glorified thing. I don't think people should necessarily be proud of selling out because we sell a subscription offering where people should drink it every day. So if they can't drink it every day, it goes against my mission of fueling the athlete. So with all that being said, the hardest thing to do is how much do I need to have to buy what I think I can support for a period of let's say 12 weeks.

1:00:07problem is if that sells out in four weeks you're kind of screwed because your manufacturer doesn't have time to produce for you you gotta book it over here buddy join the wait list and if it lasts you too long you can't you don't have the cash generation to do the fun stuff and the cool campaigns and the sponsoring of x and y so it's just this like constant threading of the needle of like inventory and cash and then it's called demand planning and it's one of the hardest things to do as a business because you go from selling 100 grand a month to a million a month to 10 million a month and like what i always say is companies we're going to grow 500 this year first year second year yeah and do you know anyone that grew 500 i'm you know grow one percent this guy right here man no but like i know no yeah no not at all like it just doesn't happen yeah i hope i get this question later on this week from somebody else like no i actually do man let me shoot him a text yeah that's what like people and companies don't grow at the same pace that's insane yeah it's just not i feel like you'd be happy if you grew 100 yeah you'd be stoked man there's a lot of brands right now they're down 70 on the year yeah big brands that are down a lot dude you know sweet green and kava down fucking crazy i know i know i saw that yesterday man as a as a overrated salad bowl yeah i like sweet bro i eat sweet sweet green nick jam is a very good friend i'm a bowl guy man i i love the bowl situation i love this i love the brand i think it's one of the best consumer brands i think sweet green have a great product and i love the team there i'm biased nick's a very good friend of mine uh his wife his whole family are amazing i think naturally speaking you know same as us like their gatorade is like chipotle and mcdonald's you know like it's hard to sell people at 20 my salad sweet green by the way is like 30 i don't know what i put in it but it's not cheap yes and that's hard to break mass america so go back to that question like the gatorade for them like you just rock up to burger king and get like $40 meal deal.

1:01:59Even Chipotle has gotten more expensive than my Chipotle order the other day. I hadn't been to Chipotle in a really long time and I was in a pinch. I'm like, I'll go get a little double check. I know you like Chipotle. I really prefer now to cook at home. I cook at home most of my meal. Have you been to that hill? I cook at home as well. Have you been to the one Tala Organic? No, the Chipotle Killer. I need to try it. There's a spot over in Santa Monica that I really like that's a beef Tala burger and fries. It's called silly ass name horrible name i can't remember it so bad palms and patties fire though actually a really good burger it's super i think it's just yeah it's interesting though because the health conscious person going forward man i feel like uh a like a they used to be positioned in a place where it's like 13 14 maybe 15 dollars the cost of risen And like now you're talking about something that's costing like$22 to$26.

1:02:57You're like, this is getting kind of expensive. And if we're feeling like that in LA where you're in a bubble where you can go to fucking Air One and spend$35 on a hot plate and be like, if I get Air One under$30, you're like, I won. But now you talk about like middle America, you're like, they're looking at a$22 smoothie or a$22. It's a lot. It's absurd. I don't even know how that little earth bar place survives, man. It's a$20 smoothie if you go. People buy it. It's aspirations. It's brand. People want it. It's content. You know. Yeah. It's very, very interesting. You also brought up in a YouTube video that you had a great conversation with a partner in the Middle East.

1:03:39And you said that distributing abroad is like difficult. And it can, if you're partnered with the wrong person, it can hinder the brand because it's like, that's your baby. and distributing abroad is tough. So what about the deal with the partner in the Middle East like works and what are you looking for in a partner when you go to distribute abroad? Yeah, I also said that like, I hate international business because I believe that until you've achieved a certain scale, like why would you take your resource allocation? So if all you have is speed and you're never going to win on resource or capital, then why are you taking your resource in your capital, the two things that you can't beat other people on.

1:04:22And deprioritizing the core strategy of the business, i.e. US retail, and having them going over here and deal with a very small rounding error, because you're not just going to hire more people to deal with like a couple POs a year. So I generally hate it. And I don't think many businesses should do it until they reach, let's say,$100 million. When it's the right time to do it, probably comes down to a couple things one is like operational complexity and lift for us when we went to australia way way too early probably we had to change our artwork in our can our moqs are so high so i had to get regulatory in have an australian business set up an australian lawyer reprint the can ship them off to australia tie up our cash send it off and like it's been an okay business it will grow we're launching 7-eleven there 750 stores a couple of other big gas stations petrol stations but you get excited by like oh international australia is so sick but like nothing else matters other than this four walls of america like celsius however many billion dollars here monster ghost look at all these brands they just focus on this market and um that's what i'm trying to instill in my team but what do i look for i look for brand alignment in terms of um are they going to represent the brand well because you don't lose control of the brand but chances are you're not going to be signing off on every mom and pop shop they put it into and thankfully for us they're okay kind of being in a lot of places um but you know if i see a cadence run club out in the middle east and it's like i'm like i'm pulling the plug on that thing like that's just jeopardizing my core business because people are going to get confused if i start seeing athletes who are fueled by cadence and they're not so there's certain rules and regulations we put in place contractually they can't do x and they can't do y this individual hamdan happens to be a very good friend of mine a very successful entrepreneur and has full alignment on who the brand is and where we want to be and then the last thing i'll say is like it's a very easy supply chain he's buying the same can as we make today no artwork changes no labeling changes and he picks it up at our factory in a truck like i don't have to do anything so you know for me it's like you know it's a nice i mean the the ahmed from whoop went over there created a great business he's always over there raising capital.

1:06:38They're becoming a very health conscious state. We're launching Emirates Airlines, things like that. So there is some big revenue opportunities for us. You guys are partnering with Emirates? Yeah. So you'll be on the plane? You know, touch your weight and say, wow, that's so cool. Pretty dehydrated on a flight. Damn, that's true. That is so true. And Emirates is top. That's tip top of the line. There's a big food culture there. You don't drink a lot of alcohol, clearly. emirates local culture and obviously there's brits abroad um who drink enough for everyone but um it's a big food culture people eat a lot drink a lot of coffee a lot of coffee shops great chains so it's it's an okay market it will be generally you know one to two percent of the business but we can still do a couple million dollars there for sure yeah and that's really solid so wait wait i gotta stick on emirates for a sec you talk about having leverage and being able to like do these deals on your own term are you working into an emirates deal first class flights me personally yeah i need an agent or something i'd rather just take the money okay yeah yeah have you flown emirates first class i've never flown emirates first class that's the goal yeah i actually didn't i'm going over to dubai in december uh we're launching in november so like now uh i know george is going out and then will's out um to activate and um i just can't make it work because i'm traveling too much i'm going to london next week to do some cool stuff and then i was like let me take my wife who's been through the ringer with me and my daughter go for a holiday i wouldn't opt choose dubai naturally um got other places in the world because we're launching i looked at first class flights and i was like i need to sell a few more cans first you know like or i'm like i'll do some influencer stuff come with me on my first class fight to her i was like i've been vlogging on youtube that's probably one of the things i like would do it for but um that's no no i've been business class i've been fortunate enough to do that but also like a few years ago when flights weren't as expensive it's like crazy i'm going to new york tomorrow i'm like taking a red eye which is like the worst flight and i'm like how much yeah crazy god yeah those new york flights are expensive hong kong man we bought a little early we got a good deal we gotta get where i want to go i want to run hong kong in march oh we were talking so i i ran one marathon in may i haven't ran once sense.

1:08:58When did you run? I ran the, uh, the one in orange County. Oh, nice. It was fun. Uh, it wasn't really fun. Anyways, I have a love hate relationship with running cause I wrestled in high school. So we'd run a lot late at night, every single day, like all of high school. So I was trying to cut weight. Yeah. A lot of trauma with running, you know, it's like not my love, but we're talking to our buddy, uh, Johnny Hawk Stetler, Jay Hawk. And he's like, we should run New York. And I've been seeing the stories. I'm very like, that looks like a fun time. And all our friends that live in New York are like, this is the marathon to do.

1:09:27Orange County didn't feel any vibe from there's no vibe in the city in orange county man we were running through like a local high school there was no one there for like hour and like two hours of the run it's just me and this one dude who we kept going back and forth with passing that's all you're really running with there's no like city kind of i'd see my mom and my girlfriend and my aunt like be like oh and that was it you know so like we kind of want some vibe like oh major merit like the vibe i ran london i ran new york last year and i was meant to run this year had a meeting i had to cancel whatever but i deferred and my promise is i'm always going to run you up that's my city that's where i met my wife like to me that's really home and uh the energy in that city especially like mile one to 12 coming through brooklyn like there's something you got people shut you know one of the tactics i'll say is print your name on your jersey so it's like ross ross i'm like yeah but i wouldn't you know like let's go but it's like a million people or something yeah you know and obviously now like you know it's become this big you know you know influencer infused activity or being in the city for the week and it's an energy that actually will carry you through 26 miles you can't muscle through 26 miles but in new york you can because they just lift you up and i think um the only thing i'll say is i'll never try and like race new york because a lot of stimuli going on yeah no it's just also it's a well first of all it's a very tough course if you're gonna like try and PR like I wouldn't pick New York I've got friends who are PR'd in New York and like fair play to them they got to be really strong on the hills and the bridges but like you go see your buddies if you drink you crack a beer if not you crack a cadence and then you have a slice of pizza on my 12 at the dirty bird pop-up and it's just like an energy where you just I don't I want to be out here for five hours honestly I don't want to be I don't want to be done in two and a half I want to be out here for five so um my buddy this year did a reverse do you see that no Hercules he went to the start he went to the finish line at one he had ran to the start line and then ran the marathon holy shit he ran 40 some he ran he ran 80 he ran 84 85k yeah yeah math isn't really braiding strong i'm not good at math so yeah do that help me out with that guys he ran two marathons yeah yeah like actually ran two marathons 52 miles yeah yeah didn't just didn't just jog it he's like he's i mean he he can run a he's a very fast marathoner he just ran across montenegro last month he's done 150 miles in a day he's like a he works with us he has a brand in the uk for us he also happens to be like a top top runner um but he ran with his fiancee but you know he does a lot of content and it was kind of like went kind of viral online he got a lot of hate for it which is part of the i mean running's a funny sport you know yeah right there's an interesting group that runs man interesting group that's funny you need to just chill out a little bit yeah people need to relax I saw Crack a cadence Yeah yeah Bob cadence and chill dude Come on man I On the topic of running And it being kind of a weird sport I saw something It must have been on TikTok Or somebody was telling me that They were posting on Strava And this like really Like really successful Like fast runner Was like commenting Hateful shit Oh yeah I saw this I saw this Oh cute run or something Yeah yeah I saw this What are you doing You saw the guys that like Ran in college Yeah yeah yeah Now you've got like guys Getting bagged for like running a slow marathon you know it's a pretty like my thesis and my stance on is like like if you're moving more than less like generally it's a good thing now do i believe that all the flow of money is going towards influencers instead of like professional runners yes but as a as a brand that has sponsored the number two american marathon runner top 10 finishing the olympics and paid him six figures and i have paid influencers 500 bucks this guy then there's no return on investment other than like brand equity value and these guys can pump for me.

1:13:18So I understand why a lot of the capital from the larger brands is going into the influencers because they're actually adding a lot of incrementality to the sport. So I understand why these guys are annoyed and if I'm these guys, I'm like, I'm cashing in. I'm cashing in because it's my job. On the topic of content, you've been posting some awesome vlogs on YouTube. I want to know why. as a founder, what is the point or what is the benefit of being forward-facing on YouTube? You don't have to. You could build cadence without being a well-known founder. We see you doing it. We see George doing it.

1:13:56Why be forward-facing and create content and put your face out there? Is it to have more of an impact? Why do it if you don't have to? honestly um i found it very hard in the beginning um when my last company i pretty much didn't showed nothing and we did some crazy like crazy stuff peter teal wrote my series c term sheet on a private plane wow gave me 42 million dollars on a flight from l.a. to san francisco like peter teal like gates drake was an investor we threw the coachella party justin bb like we i could have a bazillion youtube like if i had documented that there was a level of regret to that by the way none of that created great business so i was like that doesn't mean we were like like fundamentally that's not impressive however i've always been inspired personally as a consumer of founders that have documented their journey george is a huge inspiration to me and i'll tell him as my best buddy like he inspired me through his content starting cadence i understood the value it could create on a company through founder-led content um so i wanted to take it on and I built a small team around me to help me do that because fundamentally when I wake up in the morning and I don't think about, let me like think through the list of content.

1:15:12Like I'll message tire. I need you to be my brain on this because I'm focused on X and Y. Like we've just talked about like operational sales strategies like that gets me off. The other thing is, is I actually just feel hugely inspired by the fact that when I am 40, 50 years old, 60 years old, my daughter will watch this and be like wow my dad was a savage imagine your dad built red bill and you could watch that um so i got to watch my father he was a super big inspiration to me um firsthand but i think um i'm inspired that my daughter who's now nearly two years old when she's old enough to watch will watch her dad build what will be the one of the biggest drinks companies in the world it's amazing you um you said a quote too you said uh my family gives me meaning, but purpose gives me direction.

1:16:02Can you tell us a little bit about what that quote means to you? Yeah, it kind of came off the back that I think, um, huh, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a good, it's a good one. That was an interesting quote. I think, um, you know, um, I think it's over glorified to think that, um, balance and being like, quote unquote, I guess, happy all the time is really going to be existence. I have everything going for me. I have a great business that I'm in love with. I have a wife and a daughter, but it does feel selfish that when I wake up in the morning, I think primarily about my work. You know, honestly, there's other, there's two other living beings in my life that I am fundamentally responsible for to some extent.

1:16:50My wife is a huge factor for my child, my daughter, because she cares for her and she's a full-time mother. But, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I'm straight into the office. I'm working all day. I come home at night. I have my non-negotiables. I take her to the park at 3.30. Non-negotiable. Don't call me. Phone is off. And I bath her at night. That is the two moments in time. But work is just such a big part of my life. And it is fundamentally, again, the most important thing for the mission of the family. So I think that it's hard to find the balance and I'm not balanced but this is my version of balance you know like 99 % work 1 % here half percent here whatever the math's not mathing but to go back to that it came back from the fact that like maybe this is okay like you know maybe this is normal and I think a lot of people comment and be like oh you've got such a good balance but like they don't see behind the curtain I'm not necessarily this perfect guy who's like spending all their time with their family or I'm in the gym enough or whatever.

1:17:52So yeah, I think that came from the fact that like, it is hard to prioritize other things that could be prioritized when you're so focused on building such a great business. I want to stay on this for just a sec because, so I just got engaged a few months ago. Thank you. And I've always struggled with like, I know I want a family. I know I want kids for sure having a kid or having multiple changes things a lot and as someone who you know we're building the podcast i have me and brayden both have like big goals for ourselves and and maybe things change like once you do have a kid and and your priorities change and everything but like i admire you because you are such a like from what i've seen an amazing family man but also like a fucking killer entrepreneur.

1:18:43And I think what I worry about is like once you do have a kid, it gets harder to do the business shit. Focus on, yeah, 100%. You're a selfish guy and that's okay. Like I am too. You know, I always wanted kids. I wanted kids. I grew up with two sisters and I've always been inspired by like big families. I didn't have like a lot of like big family cousins and like all that around me. But like I've always wanted that. And I always told myself the same story. yeah like you're telling yourself the story like i can't have this if i have this but like or like i i can't have a kid until like so and so is set up but then like when you get so and so other problems and other goals exist like it does never ending it's unstoppable right it's that big it's like the unstoppable when i win my first when i sell my first company i'm just gonna no you're not bro yeah i was in the hostel my wife was five centimeters dilated i certain i signed the term sheet to sell my business wow i was in the laptop in the corner i'm like when it comes out when she comes out yeah i got i got you but until then like i'm cranking that's the truth and that's who i am but also my wife understood that's who i am we didn't just like have a baby after a meeting for a week you know we're like not in the nba so but anyway all that being said is there's truth to it and I think it's okay honestly you can't do it all and that's the inconvenient truth I think anyone who comes on here and maybe people disagree and says no you can do it all you cannot be the best father in the world you can be the best father you can be given your circumstances and for me the best father in my agreement with my wife and I think it's important to have agreements because I fucking hate expectations like expectations are the worst thing you could have come on here and be like I thought he would be great but we had a call before and we briefed and we understood where the relationship was going to be my ex my relationship with my wife is that like i'm going to do this you're going to do this and we are signing up for that it's a joint business plan all for the importance of my daughter what did my daughter need she needs certain things we got to pay for you know we got to pay for shit you know that's the truth and i think anyone who's like no it's perfect balance and all this stuff it shouldn't be 50 50 my version of 50 50 is different i don't do half the child care and she does half the child care because i do i don't do 50 of work and she does 50 of the work that's the agreement I have with my wife and she's okay with that and I'm okay with that so I think to go back to it when you do decide to have a kid it's obviously with a partner that you've had a discussion with where you want to be in life or she wants to be in life and I do think the inconvenient truth as a podcast Stephen did with this amazing doctor and psychologist and she talked about like the reality is is like generally speaking the father is less important to the newborn between the ages of one to three your job the baby doesn't need two months that's the truth so I've allowed my wife has allowed for us and me to focus on certain things that are going to have longer term value for the family and I know that come three four years old I'll be in a position where yes I can take 12 o 'clock off because I've got a team of 200 and it's okay I just got to get there just got to build that and keep going with that what what have you noticed from having Stephen as an investor that's someone that I admire a lot someone that I think we've watched I've watched him grow i've modeled certain things that we've done after him what have you noticed from working around him and we were up at his house the other day and i think the one thing that steven has is an obsession around uh source of truth so when he is he's one of the best interferes in the world other than you guys obviously um we're second but he will we're coming i mean watching the lab he will read books about people he'll read books about people who think about like he is so obsessed around the source of truth so when i have spent time with him you know understanding how deep he goes into the individual that he is um interviewing and not only that the level of depth he goes into about what other people are saying or the creator economy around the tags and the likes and the comments so for example there's a subject on electrolytes he's going to find out who the thought leader is on that you know he's so data obsessed this guy is not opinion based at all he's so he's so data obsessed and just being able to see how his mind thinks about um the obsession over that source is is amazing and the level of depth he goes into the work he does and the team he has around him and you go up to his house there's teams of armies on working on many projects and sprints it's like it's it's really impressive he's a super impressive guy and the other thing i'll say is he gives you his time he'll sit there and his phone i mean i see it his phone is going people's names i'm like you should barely pick that up that guy was in the white house not too long ago and he's got you he's locked in no problem if you if you've got his time you've got his time and i find that extremely respectful because he's not like oh yeah no bro that sounds really great and um and that's something that i i'm like wow if he can do that and i've seen what you know people mr b's calling and back obama's calling him it's crazy and he's like locked in and i find that like honestly that's pretty that's pretty sick wow that's crazy that's awesome is there something is there somebody else maybe similar to steven who you've been fortunate enough to spend some time around that you've learned quite a bit from or that you admire that you're like i want to bring this into my life um yeah i through the last company raised from some great investors you know um raised from like founder of starbucks um we raised from obviously peter teal and raised from dan sunheim which is one of the best hedge fund managers probably to ever live so just being able to spend time around them whether it's in board meetings or whether it's just on off sites um just two three hours can be life-changing the way they think the way they operate um i think um you know without sounding cliche i'm hugely inspired by my father he's taught me a lot you know modest business growing up never you know changed the world or anything but i had a lot of aspiration when i grew up i got to see him build a company from one person to five people to ten people and a very different industry but like used to take the bus after school and sit in his office and like his office was like half this size and then it got a little bit bigger and then it became the size of this home and I was like wow like that's pretty cool and like always on like always in his team used to sit right in the middle of the office no corner office bullshit and uh that definitely ingrained a lot in me and how he deals with people and um how he likes to think about like success it's always been super inspirational so I think like just the amount of time I've spent with him has been probably the biggest impact on my life was he always like working with his team did you notice that he was always like in the weeds with them yeah he was in recruitment so it's a very like sales personal um you know very hands-on business um but it was from you really went from a small town in a small country i'm from glasgow in scotland which isn't like the average income is 21 700 that's the average so it's not like no one's making six figures a year that doesn't exist so everything in relative terms if your business does a million a year that was like you're wow you know he dropped off in a volvo to school if someone turns up at a bmw it's like what the hell so that's just i want to just share that light but what didn't change is like um how he handled people and how he um what he looked for when he was hiring and the level it's just like that's instilled in me for sure i also played sports so like coaches that i've had in my life have definitely shaped my shape my opinion on like you know um working hard and all that stuff but huge huge amount of passion recognition this game honestly um and i think just surrounding yourself with the right people is definitely the best thing to do have you gamified business do you feel like you look at it as a game what are some of those key things that you've noticed like what are some of those patterns that you can instill to someone listening to this depends on the business honestly um within within my category there's definitely there's definitely patterns and they were evolving over time as like consumers habits change for sure so i might not be able to give like key specific points um but i have gamified it everything i'm playing the game like i'm fully aware of it and i'll play the game as long as i need to play the game until i don't need to play the game um do you think you would be able to do that like do you think not play the game yeah with your brain you feel like you'd be able to not play the game and just get out and be like no yeah you don't think so i don't think i could either no definitely not i mean i would like to uh not be a ceo forever yeah to be honest with you um i mean i enjoy the brand side like chief brand officer would be amazing um right now that's we're just not there yet you know and um i take a lot even george for example we've talked about him a lot but like ceo founder for 15 years or 14 years and then he builds a team and now he's you know creative director because that's what he does he's like in the fabrics and design photography and art direction and creative direction like does he want to build the p &l no um so like i love i think a great founder knows what rooms they don't need to pick what tables they don't need to be in all the time and then they put a person in that position who can execute on that and i think for me i would love to continue to be building businesses in consumer space i don't think there's anything more inspirational when you see someone use your product or there's a feedback that is positive on your product like it hits every time i could land a massive store today doesn't really get me hard when i see a customer being like this helped me with my marathon bro i'm bugging because i know it's just like i don't know it just like it's different for me but running the day-to-day business honestly i think this is my last time it's funny we we say that about the pod like we'll get messages online and it's fucking awesome anytime you get a message if you get someone you know who's like yo that was a sick episode i'm actually listening hits different you see them in person if you meet someone like i love your bottom like holy shit you're real man yeah it's not this isn't just like a comment online and it's kind of it's kind of hard to it's like you see the numbers online and it's cool because like they're going up and maybe hit different milestones and stuff but it can be hard to like internalize it of like well that's kind of a lot of people watching every episode or every week every month but yeah sometimes it can hit different if it's in person or if it's like a close makes my whole fucking day if i meet someone in person it's a crazy thing i'm sure seeing it out in public you're like yeah it's crazy i was like in brooklyn a couple weeks ago with my wife and we're like pushing and my daughter for whatever reason she like now like because we have like the fridges in the house and the cadence fridges she's like cadence she's only nearly two you didn't really speak it's her first words bro i swear to god there's a guy with a water bottle like in the line for coffee and she's like cadence and i was like no way that's crazy it was like a really cool moment like right outside like did you go up to him did she no Oh, she was like in my arms.

1:29:42Oh, okay. She goes and taps him. That's kind of cool. So I don't know how, I mean, it must be like the white, the logo, like the white space. I mean, it was also like this far away, but. That's so cool. And then, yeah, we just see it all the time, like upstate New York. There's a, like my friend will send me a picture of like, you know, you're upstate New York, three hours in Hudson, and the barista has a cadence water bottle. And I'm like, wow, that's like, that's kind of crazy to me, you know? But we do have a mission. And I think the goal for the company is to be as ubiquitous as a Red Bull can.

1:30:12You know, I want that. If you were able to talk to a founder or if a founder is listening to this and, you know, they're doing a million, maybe a few million dollars a year. What are like those mindset shifts a founder needs to have to be able to scale 10 million plus? mindset i think that to go back to the very first question i think it's really important to identify to identify the three to six things that are company changing you don't need to get every decision right heck if you get 50 you're probably on your you know it's probably a good odds three to six things that are going to fundamentally change the outcome of the business from a size of the prize perspective and that's all you should hone in on because like one to 10 million is kind of this gray zone of like you've really not made it out yet even 10 million you've really not made out yet you know but like the things that you deal with every day as a founder because your team at like one to two million dollars is probably one to three people it's probably not more than that i don't imagine so you're doing everything and you can't really get out the weed you're dealing with the lawyers on the ip contract manufacturing agreement you're dealing with the co-man and you're not an expert on product or liquid but you're doing that too and you're probably in the social media and you've heard about this paid ad thing so you got to do that too and you can't afford to hire the agency that everyone's talking about you're like oh shit and i should be on amazon too we buy an amazon agency so you're doing all this stuff but like my advice is like create measurable outcomes for all these things if i do this right it's going to be worth this it's going to take up this much time and it can be done in this amount of time and identify those three things probably channel strategy product etc and take away the bottom 70 70%.

1:31:49And you'd be like, we'll do that because they're not going to be as impactful to the company and focus on those one, two, three things, get those right. And you'll get to the next stage. And at the next stage, you can hire people, you can raise money and you'll get those other 70 % of things that are rounding errors to the business. If you get the one, two, three, right, I'm massively, I think that's the biggest thing a founder can do. Last one. What were those top three for cadence? What were the top three in your opinion? in um it's for us it's distribution stores which ones we're focused on which ones we're not uh and innovation so we've kind of halted innovation as a company because we've got quite horizontally ambitious about the portfolio ready to drink ready to mix and other and we have the balance sheet to launch 50 new flavors honestly we could launch 20 new flavors we could do it and i know they'd be successful but we said okay stop what's the most important thing for the company.

1:32:40Let's get each one of these SKUs to 100 million until we launch another player. And until we get there, we haven't unlocked the ability to do X. And we probably will before, but as a general purpose, I'm saying that needs to be in, I need two to 5 % of America to have tried that can before I launch Orange Soda. You know, that's basically my thesis. I love it. This has been such a fun episode. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been episode 183 with Ross McKay. If you're still here, please hit the subscribe button, drop us a comment, leave us a like, and we'll see you guys all next week. Peace. PPD.

1:33:08Some people say they just come for this part. That's what a lot of people are saying. So speed. Got to be fast. Got to be fast. Got to be fast. 3-8-40. That's quick. Yeah, that's what Ross is running at. Yeah, I mean, he's making five decisions in the car before we hit record. He made it through decisions sitting on the couch right there. He's like, we're going to pause the pod. Yeah. Got to make this call. He didn't do that, but he could have. Could have if he wanted to. I would have respected it. I would have been like, okay, game is game. What are we making a decision on? Can we help make a decision?

1:33:38What do you need help with? Yeah. Where can we take this? You know what? Actually, we had some thoughts, Ross. After talking to you, we had some thoughts about Cadence. I will say, and I feel like I say this after a ton of our episodes, but this truly was one of my favorites. It was great. It was a masterclass in building a very successful CPG brand. I mean, he's exited before from Daring. So it was so interesting to hear what he's taking into this new venture. this is something that him and george heaton co-founded yeah and just to see all of the decisions that go into sipping the liquid that was on the table and it was really good very good very good i loved the flavor that i spilled a little of myself yeah it was fantastic a lot of spillage this episode we had a lot of spillage going on low scores in the corner ross thought it was gonna be easy yeah you know what's also interesting is he made it seem like he kind of got lucky with daring foods in a way like with the right time right like covid hit it was frozen food it just so happened that it took off but i don't think he gives himself enough credit like he's smart dude so he's so smart he's so dialed on just the details that go into this stuff it's not just like oh is a liquid good it's yeah it's like the world it's the world that he's building it's the youtube channel and i i want to say too this is really interesting i just found him through like cadence through youtube that's how i got exposed to the brand and i think it shows the importance of founder-led content how important youtube is and it's why after our trip to hong kong like we are starting we started a second youtube channel yeah specifically for the case that if you just come to the show and hang out with us here you only get dude you only get the ppd to really get to know us i know you only get the ppd i mean i don't want to take away from this time i want to add more to this time yeah and it's so funny because um after the episode i was my wheels were turning wheels were turning and i'm like i gotta make i gotta make something i need it i want an exit gotta build you know gotta build something so we've been we've been we've been blind dude but just know dude whether it's whether it's the thing that me and brayden are going to do together that we're super excited about.

1:35:55We're not ready to talk about it yet, but I also have some ideas. I know you want to get into beverage. I kind of came up with an idea for a beverage myself, but after hearing Christian Guzman and him talk about how hard it is and how much time and effort you actually have to put into a beverage brand life. It's got to be a thing. That has got to be the thing. What I also thought was really interesting that Ross talked about was it's like you're solving a problem that you have yes like a lot of these the start of an entrepreneur's journey is looking at your life and thinking about like what are the super annoying problems you want to solve right whether looking at the lights are in this room i'm assuming the founders of these lights were like i think we can make a better light that does x y and z i think that i can make a better beverage that is tastes better yeah is more functional has better ingredients in it whatever more caffeine whatever the heck the thing may be so many of you listening to this right now, you probably have an idea that bothers you.

1:36:53There's something out there in your life, whether it be a shoe on your feet, pants, shirt, you know, a software that you think can make your life easier. Lean into those things. And I bet you, you might, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world might be listening to this right now. I mean, you think about all the most successful, biggest brands, they all solve a problem. And I think like, we all dream about making this like massive company. And you're like, okay, what's the fucking idea? And it doesn't come from you sitting down and being like, I'm going to right now think of a billion dollar brand idea.

1:37:27It's going to come one day and be like, this doesn't exist out there. He said the hydration beverage for or the performance, like cadence didn't, it didn't exist and he needed it. It was like he was trying to find it and he was trying to fuel himself after these workouts. it didn't exist. So we went out to go make it like with low with no sugar. Yeah, it doesn't that doesn't happen if he's just like, hmm, like if if he's not in the culture of working out and running, like he doesn't come up with the idea for cadence without a doubt. I thought something that was also really interesting. He talked about getting outside of his bubble and like making a product that's not just for Los Angeles or New York City.

1:38:09Ross is not just thinking about a product that would land here. It's like, what could the entire U.S. consume and what would they enjoy and what's a price point that could stick it's not going to be probably like that four dollar price point that we're so used to seeing in these convenience stores out here which is ridiculous we went we got to make them two bucks again everything should be two bucks every drink you go to the alfred's that we live right down the street from seven dollars for a medium iced coffee six dollars if you don't choose to do the cold foam and i've almost just kind of gotten used to that.

1:38:40And what's messed up about that is now I'm like, man,$5 for an iced coffee sounds pretty good. But like I specifically remember, bro, a time when Starbucks was$2.75 for a medium cold or grande cold brew, ice cold brew. And then I remember the day I went and it went up to$3.25 and I remember that because I was like, oh my God, it's no longer two, it's in the threes. I'm like man things are getting expensive and then something happened with minimum wage and then Starbucks I went again and it was like five dollars for an iced coffee and I'm like dude what are we doing so expensive you've lived through so many moments in history I know dude I'm so old dude it's crazy you're like a dinosaur but things are getting expensive um and and you kind of get kind of used to it because you live in LA and it just kind of becomes the norm and like you think about that that is just so not the case it's outrageous is what it is and i think uh something interesting too if you looked at like all of the cans if you looked at take out something interesting if you look at all the cans on a wall and you stick his beverage on it's beautiful yeah feels good in the hand it's pretty it's a pretty can very photogenic yeah it stands out and it's a marketing tool itself.

1:40:01You see it, like we talked about it on the flat lays of people going to do their marathons. It's like, that's now part, it's the watch, the shoes, the socks, and then boom, it's the gels and the drink. Oh, I loved this. We even put this in the PPD. Talking about the price point of the can and being able to have more products in your ecosystem, because you have these different, like you, okay, you have like Target or something is not just buying that can. you're also getting the gels or the the salt um you know i'm talking about those little pouches things you're able to make more on those than you are on the beverage because the weight and all that stuff so it's interesting to have like different product skews in your arsenal to where when you're going to those stores you can in theory you can make less on your actual can you're making it back on the revenue that you're getting from like the pouches or from the gels because it's so much cheaper to make those and like he was telling us about that so that's a really interesting strategy where a lot of brands are just like oh it's just the canned beverage they're not going into these other different items and so you know you can afford to potentially make a little bit less on the price of said can because you're going to get it back on another product that's going to be in the same vicinity or in that same ecosystem for your brand but the but the can is the main thing for sure yes around the brand definitely yeah that's what that's what that's what people know it as and you start with one and then you build out because he probably when he was thinking about uh you know cadence as a brand he was probably having all these ideas of like oh we could make this and this and this but he's like let's just start with the can and then as we get the liquid down and we start having traction we can introduce other things and other flavors as well you think ross goes to bed at like 8 p.m he's going he's gonna be like 4 30 man respect i thought what he said was very interesting he's like if i want to train and go on a four hour run he's like it has to be on my time he's like i'm not impact i'm not going to impact like i want to spend time with my daughter i want to be present and there's things that i need to do for my business and also for my family that if i want to be selfish and have me time i'm just gonna have to wake up a little bit earlier and i honestly respect it and it just kind of scares me because i'm like oh you think i'm not a 4 a.m kind of guy like do i have to become that when we eventually start having kids.

1:42:21Oh my God. It's not kind of scary. The thought of 4 a.m. makes me want to bash my head against a wall. Getting up at 4 a.m. It's the only time my dad gets up, dude. I don't even know what you guys - Dude, same. What do you do at 4 a.m.? What's up with our dads getting up at 4 a.m.? Dude, my dad doesn't even wake up with an alarm. It's just like they levitate at 4 a.m., bro. Anyone over the age of 60, these dads just suck. Uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They just come to life at 4 a.m. It's like Dracula. They just pop up, pop up out of bed. It's a crazy shit. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe you become a dad and you're like, okay, you know, you're already getting trained for it.

1:42:51You have no sleep for that first little period of time. Yeah. Just lock in. Back to the can and how it looks. There's a detergent that we started buying. Oh. And it looks completely different. I forget the freaking name of it. We're not plugging them for free. No, no, no. Not definitely not. But then I was thinking about. So like their whole marketing thing is that it's not toxic. yeah whatever yeah but it looks real sexy and it looks like something that i would take a photo of and post it on my story it's like an aluminum can solid matte color it looks really sexy and that's like another example of these there's so many brands out there and so many industries that just haven't been disrupted and they all look the exact same oh yeah if you like healthify it and then you make it look fancy and sexy.

1:43:44I feel like both of those are just, it's like a recipe for success, which is exactly what Ross did with Cadence. What is the brand, this is what I'm trying to look up, of the hand sanitizer? ASAP? No, no, no, no. It's like Touch Free or something. Touchland. Okay. How much did Touchland sell for? Okay. On the topic of what you were just saying, this hand sanitizer brand is always Purell. like since i was like a young kid right it was like purell and the maybe bath and body works had some like hand sanitizers but really it was purell right you looked at all the different sanitizers the same couple brands touch touchline came out with like oh this is like kind of a cuter little little thing and it's like the it looks a little bit more premium you know what i'm talking about i literally have it in my bag you have a photo of it yeah it's you just pulled it up i do i do just pulled it up it's that those ones oh yes yeah okay they they sold for 880 million this year.

1:44:42It's just hand sanitizer. There's really nothing different. They changed the packaging of it. They changed the look and feel of it. That's another thing that from everyone that we've talked to on the show, it's a very successful entrepreneur. Many of them really, like Ross's, Ross reinvented what he wanted out of like the beverage space, but it's still a drink. It's not like, it's, you know what I'm saying? It's still a drink, right? It's a beverage. many of the really massive companies that we see aren't like magical ideas that no one's ever thought of before it's like a little twist on something that already exists and making it more either for them like that's a that's a cooler looking hand sanitizer it's still hand sanitizer still does the same thing that all the other brands are still doing maybe it smells a little bit different and like you don't have to reinvent the wheel to go make something great is where i was going with that 100 and he talked about he's kind of going after gatorade right or like red bull yeah like he wants to make something that big and right now you look at cadence and they're doing very well but it's like a drop in the bucket in comparison to what the goliath of gatorade is doing i have no doubt in my mind that he will get to that like billion dollar plus uh marker but But I think there's like so much opportunity out there and so much of like a little part of that pot is still so much money.

1:46:12And so just because one person is doing it or there's one brand out there doesn't mean that you can't go out there and do something similar, change things up, change up the branding and your positioning slightly and like still have major success. 2026 I think or 2025 has shown especially in like the women's fashion the huge players the Lulus the Allos you had all the littler brands taking market share those littler brands were coming in taking 10 million here 10 million here 50 million dollars here 100 million dollars here we see them on our street bro they pop up those lagging brands they pop up they can compete it's no longer just like you're having to have oh if it's not the biggest and the best thing like yeah consumers are spreading out it's not it's no longer like oh i only buy said brand and i also think i think what do you think what's your thoughts on that do you only buy like what like are you loyal to any direct brand i dude i literally bought for example i i drink yerba mate every day i could totally be persuaded to buy a different drink because of a healthier provision and i got the new liquid death drink it's like it's just to try it out just to just to see if it's legit, if it tastes good.

1:47:26I'll tell you guys if I think it's trash or not. I think that we're seeing a major shift in like obviously creator-led businesses are becoming and like forward-facing founders. It's becoming like a real thing. I think that like the opportunity didn't really exist 20 years ago. Like social media has made it to where anyone can build a brand and create a story around a product and really market it and like actually go up against these like major brands. I bet you, for example, his co-founder George Heaton made 247 athletic wear. I'm more tempted to go by running shorts and a top from 247 because I resonate with that more so than like this giant Nike thing.

1:48:19It almost, I'm like, I resonate more with George Heaton and Ross McKay than I do with LeBron. You know what I'm saying? So like, I would rather go, like, no, seriously. No, no, I know, I know. I know, I just was expecting you to say LeBron. I thought you were going to say like Phil Knight at first. No, okay, sure. You just dropped LeBron. LeBron, like they're acting. No, I know, I know, I know, I know. I feel like, you know, I kind of like do have some resignation, you know. Yeah, okay. We work for the same company. Yeah, I get it. I get it. We're co-workers. You guys did completely different things.

1:48:54We both impacted the court in the bottom line. So different. So different, dude. Stakeholder value, man. We were bringing that to the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Him a little bit more than you. What I'm saying, though, is I don't think that happened before. No, because of social media, that's a thing. Like I don't know if Ross could have built Cadence 20 years ago because like the distribution of content, distribution of like getting the drink in stores is one thing. But like getting the message and building the brand and like creating a movement, it really – it's not possible like it is today. Without the – yeah, without the inner hand.

1:49:42And so that's why I think that like you are going to see a lot more of these brands start popping up and taking real market share from these big companies. Because I think the big companies still are thinking like, ah, these are just like these little brands. Like we've been crushing it for the past couple of decades. I think if anything, the end of this year and the reports from the publicly traded brands that have come out has shown that they need to be weary of what the littler brands are doing. Would you agree, though? Would you say that you're. Dude, I literally went and brought Represent for the first time ever because I enjoy his vlogs.

1:50:21Yeah. Not because of any other reason. I didn't see it. I personally really haven't seen many people buy Represent. You're the first person, honestly, that I ever saw wear it. Yeah, because I, you know. You put me on. You're in front of culture. I'm in front of culture. I was thinking about the only thing you might have been in front of me on, and it might have just been that. I set trends. You did also. I'm a trendsetter. You also put me on a kith. Oh. Yeah, I just. Okay, keep going. What else? I think those are the only two things. Oh, dude, but those are life-changing things. Those two. You know?

1:50:53Think about how different your life is since I came into it. You told me my hat's a little dirty, so I'm going to have to get it. I'll have to retire this hat. You guys seen Fig's brown hat? It used to be black. But yeah, man. You know, it's very interesting, though. It's so crazy because I have one Represent hoodie, and I want another one. And it's this sick cobalt blue color, and I was wearing it earlier today. And I realized that when I had it on, it's so silly. But I'm like, I put it on, and I'm like, kind of feeling like George D. You know? seriously i'm like dude am i ripped you know am i ripped am i swaggy like i'm in my jeep but it's looking like a range rover no it could be that's what i was gonna say you know you just transform that's so funny different than when i'm wearing my my uh blank heather gray abercrombie hoodie it's a little different yeah a little different dude it's not as sick it's a power of uh power founder-led content dude come on come on dude come on hope you guys have really been enjoying can you figure that out?

1:51:57Brother, it's on Do Not Disturb. It's obviously not. My fiance just comes through regardless. Oh, I see. Okay, okay. The PBDs have been so fun and want to shout all of you out who have been commenting on all of the pods because it's so, oh my God, it makes our day. Makes our day to see the comments. You guys are so kind with just supporting us and sharing this with your buddies. Just know that none of it's possible without you guys helping us out and doing this whole thing with us. If you're a Spotify-only listener, know we like you a little bit less, but we'd really appreciate a review. We don't make a cent off Spotify.

1:52:35Just know that we love you a little bit less, and it's all good. We love you. Still love you. Just a little bit less than the YouTube squad, but really appreciate a review. How is our Hong Kong vlog coming? Oh, my God. It's so sick. Are you past just the intro at all? Yeah. So I didn't actually go in and cut it. I've went through, it's a little bit of an interesting process. I've went into all the clips and just like chopped the heads and the tails off. So it's like, okay, that's what I'm going to use. And like going in, I'm probably like a quarter of the way through like all of those clips. It's a lot of footage, but it's so fun.

1:53:07You guys, the first 15 seconds, it's going to get you fired up. Oh, dude. God, it's going to get you fired up. I got really fired up. Did you get goosebumps when you saw where you're like, this is it? Was that kind of like in your head what was going on? I was kind of like, we're hemmy. we're there yeah we're there the first vlog ever is how long i've wanted to be like a youtuber i know this is our big break this is our big break the first vlog ever is is going with daniel dalen to china to visit factories and it was such a fun such a fun experience and that's gonna be our first vlog and the second one we think will be like just the overall hong kong trip as a whole each of those vlogs though are not going to be just like oh hey look how look we're doing we're We're going to try to make them very value packed.

1:53:51So like every week we'll have a theme, potentially, you know, maybe call some rocks in on the show to help us, you know, with answering questions and whatnot. You should send me a one handed crack. That's not embarrassing on Instagram that I can rate. Oh, I like that. At the very end. It's going to go in every single vlog. I feel like it should go kind of like at the beginning. OK. There's somewhere in the middle. Oh, you want to go at the end? No, you're shaking. We can go at the end. It's just fine. Oh, also, thank you very much to everybody that bought. Oh, the personal brand. The profitable personal brand playbook.

1:54:22I forgot the name of it. Profitable personal brand playbook. Try saying that 10 times fast. We appreciate you guys. That was epic. That directly goes and helps us like go travel and whatnot. So if you're thinking about copping, it's down in the description. If you DM me and you're from YouTube, only not the Spotify group, I will happily, I'll give you 10 bucks off. Oh, hell yeah. If you DM, you got to be subscribed on YouTube. It's not doing that. Send a screenshot of the subscribe and then say, I think I'd like$10 off. Not for the Spotify folks. No, no, no, no. Can't do it. I just can't do it.

1:54:50That's where I draw the line. Yeah, this has been so fun. What else is going on? Is there anything else we have to update them on? Holidays are coming. Holidays are coming. Trying to stay consistent with the pod as we go into the holidays because we got a lot of travel coming up. But we have some very exciting stuff that we will talk about in a few episodes because Because 2026 is going to be epic and we have some really fun things coming. And I'm stoked. Let's go. Let's keep it rolling. Oh, okay. Also, if anyone's an audio engineer in the group. Okay, we got to tell you guys about this is actually insane.

1:55:25So this is our beautiful set, right? We finished the set. Looks amazing. The other day we come here to record. Put the headphones on. Sounds horrible. Literally horrendous. Like a little baby squirrel. Don't do it anymore. That's what it sounded like. That's what it sounded like. It was horrendous. We couldn't record. We're like, what the heck is going on? we move the mic close to the wall and then we're like it gets worse close to the wall we walk outside of course the breaker to the whole entire home is on the back of this wall which is so epic for us that we come back today nothing changed nothing in the home changed like ac wasn't on like that wasn't on and now it sounds perfectly fine why is that a thing i don't know we think we might have to order this special paint called emf we bought we bought no we bought it's like $300.

1:56:09So we did buy it and we're thinking we're going to have to take down all of that. We're going to have to take down these wood panels, paint the wall, and then use a grounding kit, whatever the F that is. Get an electrician. Ground it. Ground it. Send all that frequency down to the ground. And then put the boards back up. But yeah, it was, we just got very lucky that it didn't happen when we had a guest. But when I tell you that we were over here for, I think, six and a half hours trying to record something. And it was one of the most miserable, frustrating days of my entire life because we were like, I just want to record.

1:56:43We don't understand what's wrong. And then we figured out that it was wrong. And then when we, and then we recorded and it sounded terrible in our headphones, but it didn't sound nearly as bad on the actual recording. It was so confusing. Yeah. Let us know though, if you're a, if you're a podcast rock and you can to help us help us out with that i have no idea super fun episode that ross mckay ladies and gentlemen please hit the subscribe button drop us a comment go to 505 studios and be the 67th subscriber and we'll see you guys all next week peace