Martinelli and Leo The Heroes of Arsenal’s Win in Bilbao

25:38Clive Palmer:So in the front four, we have two people want to sprint off and two people want to stand still and receive. And so for the balance of the team, he's critical. Do you see what I mean? And so I think any team, we all need an exit. We all need a go-to guy and we all go into him. regularly because we wanted to push them back and get up the pitch which is a form of progression isn't it progressing the ball up the pitch right whether whether it goes through the thirds and it's in the expected threat charts etc i'm not sure but i'm looking at a pitch i'm thinking mate i need you to go here because they're getting close they're getting close they're coming to trap us you need to spin in behind and boom he spins in behind exactly what we need and they're thinking oh geez we've got to catch him now so we've got to catch him geez i can't believe it and then the fullback says to his left finger mate you better come back and help me here because he's running me to death and so while he's doing that he's not pressing our right back who comes out the game was almost man of the match right so these are the things you have to do to get people off you in an away game in Europe you've got to threaten their back line I've called for this for a long time you know I don't think we ran in behind enough I think we all came to the ball now we've got people that want to go away and show you your shorts so that's exactly what I want to see now I know he's got side 12 feet and i think he doesn't hold hold his ankles properly and he doesn't get enough firm contacts and i can't tell you where his contacts gonna go i generally can't tell you what foot he's gonna use but step one he is the threat and every team is starting to see it now even between the forest and the bill barrel game you could see the respect level went up and they really had to work on him while they're working on him we're getting space elsewhere so performance wasn't perfect but his threat two big games in three days i thought was really really three four days i thought he's really really good really good yeah it's funny because

27:30Paul Williams:a single moment going slightly differently can change all of the analysis um in the 20th minute nani beats his man beautifully from great build-up from eze so eze gets the ball he cuts it inside He builds it beautifully, gets past a man. Timber winds up doing a beautiful ball recovery when the move breaks down, gets it to Nani, and Nani cuts it back for Eze standing in the middle of the box. And the defender does a sensational job taking it right off Eze's foot. And if that defender doesn't make that fantastic intervention, I think it's a goal. And then you have Eze with good buildup, Nani with a perfect ball to just the right guy, Eze standing in the perfect place and finishing.

28:09Paul Williams:And the whole, I think, analysis of those two performances, Nani and Eze in particular, is transformed by that. And that's an example of where a great defensive intervention kind of takes that away from us. And now we're looking at maybe a less effective as a performance than we wanted. And Nani's end product wasn't quite what we wanted. And it all pivots around a moment like that. So, you know, that is that's just something that happens. And so I want to talk a little bit about the Joker's performance. And the funny thing is, I don't even see it as a huge talking point, except that Thierry Henry talks.

28:42Paul Williams:and when Thierry Henry talks, things become a talking point. There's just no way of getting around it. He's our best ever player. So we'll talk, Jokras, a bit. But before we do that, Paul, I'd rather stand something just a little more positive. Just super quick, maybe two minutes or less. We've now seen him against lower-end Premier League opposition. We've seen him against the best Premier League opposition. And now we've seen him away in Europe at 21 years old, deputizing in a role that's really important for us, and that's Christian Mascara, as we already touched on, let us in passing ball progression outside of David Raya.

29:13Paul Williams:Again, I don't think he puts a foot wrong. I keep waiting for him to have that little slip back because I feel like young players who come into a team start out brightly and then, you know, they ebb a little bit, right? Because that's just the natural rhythm of development. But there's no ebb so far. Another really assured performance from a player who's saying, all right, William Saliba, I know you're William Saliba, but I want this shirt, man, you know? yeah oh my word um i think that the the depth strength we have in our defense you know there's no slip you lose califiori you'll have miles louis kelly it's timber or white it's mascara or saliva it's in capier or gabrielle who's an absolute rock and you know props to gabrielle as a partner to whoever comes in.

30:08And the platform, look what Mascara walks into, right? He's got Raya behind him. He's got Timber White or Gabrielle around him. He's got Zubimendi, a master of cool and control, ahead of him with Declan Rice. So that's one part of it. The other part of it is he's totally stepped in, looked the part. You wouldn't know, right? If you put your hand over the label, you wouldn't know. you just think this guy has been there for several years he's at the level um there's no blip there's no step down um well the only thing you miss is there's like one or two of those crazy saliva moments in a game where he's he's got two guys on him he spins around steps through them and then it kind of progresses the ball up the pitch or does something very salibish but like outside of that occasional Saliba moment, you don't notice it's not Saliba.

31:04And I think it's what a signing. We're so good in general, I think, lately in our signings. I don't really have any doubt. We've got very, very good at our signings. Premier League signings, we tend to pay the money and they tend to match the money and then overperform. and we've just got very, you know, he's big, he's an athlete. That's what we're going for, very athletic players. That's the game now. He's fantastic and tremendous props to him. He's got quite a bit of experience for a younger player as a number of people have, he's 21, but he's played quite a bit. And as I think we've talked about, he came into the team, never went out of it.

31:54and maybe, you know, the only thing that would stop him coming into our team and never going out of it is the fact we have William Saliba because he's at that level so far. And like you say, he may drop a bit, but his previous record at his club, I think he might have that behind him now.

32:12Paul Williams:It's going to be a fascinating thing to see what Mikel does. Do you bring Saliba in out cold having not played against the best center forward in football or do you keep the guy in who's hot? But, I mean, for me, you bring Saliba in. It's not a conversation. But we're going to have that conversation later this pod. Clive, so look. And it is just a testament, again. Incappier got on in this game late. But no Kai, no Odegaard, no Saliba, no White. No stress. Yeah, no stress. Well, some stress, but not much stress. Leo and Martinelli not starting. And you just look. You go away to a tough place and you wind up winning 2-0.

32:50Paul Williams:before we get to the Martinelli and the Leo thing which will be a big chunk of the conversation let's just quickly do the Jokeres conversation I'm not going to sit here and pretend this was a brilliant performance but he does have four shots in what was it 64 minutes something like that let me just get that exactly right yeah 64 minutes, four shots he has a diving header that I thought was really encouraging because we all heard about the heading and I thought he did a good job to show urgency to get there the moment that obviously stands out is when he's played in behind and he has one, I think, sort of poor touch where he can't get it far enough out of his feet to run onto it.

33:22Paul Williams:And it takes him wide and he winds up with a weaker shot than he'd like on his left foot. Thierry Henry did some analysis of it where he got pretty stuck in about why it's poor and why he should have gotten out in front of his defender and cut across him. And like, look, Thierry Henry is the best to ever do it. And sometimes I think when you're the best to ever do it, you're like, just do what I would have done. There is also the problem of being like every single event should be analyzed through the lens of the perfect thing to have done in that event. Let's make it clear. Football is mostly about chances that go begging.

33:53Paul Williams:It's mostly about moves that don't result in goals, even for the absolute best players. So that's that, you know, I always bring it up, but I think it's important. You know, Mohamed Salah always leads the league or Holland, one of the two of them in big chances missed because you get a lot of chances when you're good, but you miss more than you make it. It's just how it works in football. Clive, I am not going to be someone who sticks the boot in on our best ever player i don't think the analysis was too sharp like i don't think it was cruel i just think it was over analyzing a single moment in the game but you want to just generally make some observations about jokeres and maybe the that particular analysis that's doing the rounds yeah you just gotta score if you don't score then

34:35Clive Palmer:you're open to analysis right so martinelli's first touch on his goal wasn't great but he

34:41Paul Williams:His finish isn't good at all. I mean, that's the funny thing. The keeper makes it worry.

34:45Clive Palmer:His first touch wasn't good. Didn't get out in front of him enough from the header. But he then, the player thought he was going to nick it, and he drags it away and goes through. And no one cares about his other touches. You know why? Because the ball's in the back of the net. Right? And it's as simple as that. On Jokeres' touches, I thought they were fine. I thought they were his touches. So we're getting to know him now. He doesn't always look smooth in his touches, but it's all about where he wants to get to. and I don't think he's if that was Madiweke running through I think Madiweke chops him front because he's going to have the speed to create that distance to chop him front Jokeres is not as quick as Madiweke he's not as quick as Thierry Henry and so the picture's different for that player he's trying to bring it to the area and what he's really focused on mate if I'm honest with you is the touch before the finish and I always look at his last touch before the shot when we talk about ball striking his ability to put that ball where he wants it to to get the strike is what i'm looking for with him because that's the repeatable thing right so and that's what he did which i was really encouraged by i didn't get he didn't get the goal but it didn't bother me his last touch creates the angle for his left foot to go across the goalkeeper so when i see that i see you know you know what you're doing son it didn't work out this time you're not looking quite as sharp as you when we saw him in this but earlier not looking quite as quick but that will come some people say to me in my comments and said clive when's he gonna get fit but you still make excuses for him oh mate i've seen him run quicker so i'm presuming he's not fit well i've seen him in my own eyes right so um and he's playing a lot of minutes and major recognized that that's why he took him off he knows he needs him again you know so we've only got one player so we've got to work with him probably not over train him because kai's not here you know what i mean and before you know we're going to have other players midfielders playing up there which is where you were last season and so i was not worried about it it's just classic it's mine i read this but i totally agree i would have said the same thing it's why glenn hoddall struggled as a coach because he was too good i mean there's a there's a scene of him showing dave beckham had to take three kicks he goes you do it like this he's stuck it top corner crushed they didn't quite crush dave beckham's confidence because he knows how to strike a ball but it's that scenario when you have god-given ability you know you're literally terry has been the best player in the world you can't help but see things through what how you would do it you know your careers terry would not have gone for that diving header on the back post i'm telling you he had the ability to but that's not his chosen finish his chosen finish is that finish that's where he made reputation left hand side running in behind open body out slot the reason he can open his body out because he's there 15 minutes before anybody else is do you see what i mean because he's a quicker athlete jokeres isn't terry running on the right hand side he's not at home the same way do you see what i mean and there are certain positions on the pitch that's just not your optimum position to finish so yeah so i thought it's just analysis and that we we as arsehole people have got to try i struggle with this i'm gonna say these words knowing i could be hypocritical try to be less sensitive about these things you know it's very difficult right when you see people particularly from the northwest of england driving him to these discussions you have to be less sensitive we have to just we i was really encouraged by his performance it was different to what i'm used to doesn't fit my eye naturally but he's a threat and every time i looked at the screen he had two people around him.

38:20Clive Palmer:If he's not a threat, he has one person around him. That threat is very important for space. We just haven't got people all on the pitch yet to take advantage of what he actually offers. Yeah.

38:30Paul Williams:The funny thing is I could very easily look at it and say, you know what I like? I like the run. I like he's leaning at the halfway line. I like he stays on side. I like that we found the run. These are growing pains, but it's a good sign, right? We found the run of the guy in behind. That's what we want to do. I do want to be clear too. I've like important TV, but there's production meetings. You strategize what you're going to talk about. These guys get in there. Hey, we're going to re-review that Yoko Ress missed goal opportunity. That's going to be one of the segments we do guys. So be prepared to talk about that.

38:58Paul Williams:And they're teed up to talk about it and they make it a thing. And so then they know like, all right, we've got to, we got to get stuck in on this moment. And that's, that's kind of how these shows work. You know, otherwise they just sit there bantering like we do. And we got that. I've got to object there. I think you've done yourself a disservice. I think you've done a lot of important TV. I got a very nice deal on a camera that I don't think I would have got anywhere else if you hadn't pitched it. Well, and that's because it can take pictures of horses that wind up looking like moths, which is a real skill.

39:29Paul Williams:Look it up on the internet. Yeah, we are very, very, very overdue to praise Martinelli to the rafters, to praise Leo, to praise Mikel for the subs. So we'll do that. I want to say one quick thing. I think the rice yellow card on seven minutes really impacted this game. That may seem like I'm being too much of a tactical or a hipster, but I don't think this was a good Rice game. And I think he's a player who has to be able to play with his Roy of the Rovers style and collide into people. And he was on his last thread with that referee by halftime. He was nearly there. Like if this was a Premier League referee, they would have been giggling with glee at sending him off, right?

40:03Paul Williams:So I just think we saw a Rice who had to manage the situation after that. And I don't think that that helped in particular. So one thing to note. Let's talk brands and then we'll talk finishers. Yes, they're called finishers. I know, it's an outrage. Okay, first thing we're going to tell you about is NordVPN. NordVPN is a really easy one to talk about because everybody asks me about it and everybody uses it at this point. If you click on a video and it says not available in your location, what if you could just click a button on your phone or your computer or your tablet and then that video is immediately available in your location?

40:36Paul Williams:Whether that video is just some social media video you want to watch or the match reviews of the day show or a streaming service or a streaming show that's not available in your area or a streaming service that costs less somewhere else than it does where you are. You can use it. It's easy. It has really high speed. It's really high rated. And we have a really good value on it. Works on every device. Just do it. And by the way, it does threat protection too. So if you're on a dodgy stream, you're covered. It's nordvpn.com slash arsenal vision. You'll get four, a discount off the Nord regular price and four months on top, but it's 30 days risk-free.

41:07Paul Williams:So you can just try it and see what you think. nordvpn.com slash arsenal vision. nordvpn.com slash arsenalvision nordvpn.com slash arsenalvision do it now and also Indeed is the hiring platform to use. It's that simple. We are in a really weird hiring moment. A difficult hiring moment. Both for people who are trying to get hired and for organizations that are trying to hire. Because it's harder and harder to find real candidates who fit your needs and it's hard for those candidates to find the right jobs and that's because of all the AI and all the spam and all the filtering and all the nonsense and the fact that there's a million different websites.

41:38Paul Williams:With Indeed, you find the right candidates, which is a better mix because it's a better experience for the people applying and it's a better experience for the hirer, which just starts the relationship out better. But with sponsored job posts, you jump to the top of the page for your relevant candidates. And the difference it makes is massive. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45 % more applications than non-sponsored jobs. In the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. So there's no need to wait any longer.

42:07Paul Williams:Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. and listeners of this show get a$75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indy.com slash Arsenal Vision. Just go to Indy.com slash Arsenal Vision right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indy.com slash Arsenal Vision. Terms of Gets Supply Hiring Indy. Did I dump that?

42:22Clive Palmer:Indeed. Now that... Um... Clyde. May I read to you what Mikel Arteta said about subs? Okay.

42:35Paul Williams:On what he tells our subs, They are at least equally important or more important. We have discussed that the finishers are going to be more important this season, sometimes more than the starters. We can change the game there, especially with the intensity that we play, especially when the team starts to drop off. And I'm very pleased to see that. Piero comes in and plays six minutes, the first six minutes he's played, and Christian is the same. That's Norgard, Incapié and Norgard. That's the attitude I want from all of us. And then when being asked, did you call them finishers rather than substitutes?

43:07Paul Williams:Yes, I did. And I love it because I don't like other words to describe the players. I think if the game is developing, they're going to be more important in many minutes. So the quality of those minutes is going to dictate the quality of our season for sure. And it's funny how different sports can have totally different attitudes because people have been like finishers. Oh, why is he calling it that? That's dumb. I think it was who was it? It was some wannabe former striker who now plays in like the fourth division who got all mad about this. I can't remember who it was. Charlie Austin. Charlie Austin.

43:33Paul Williams:and that's it. No mark, nothing strike. Anyway, played a better level than I did. Let's put it that way. But baseball, because I get told stick to baseball all the time. So I'll bring up baseball, which is a sport I know almost nothing about. But in baseball, there's a pitcher called the closer. And some of the most famous pitchers in baseball history, Mariano Rivera, one of them, closer. They are the pitchers that come in and pitch one inning, the last inning, to shut the game down. And in baseball, they are celebrated for this role and sometimes extremely well compensated for this role as well to pitch one inning, sometimes two.

44:11Paul Williams:That's it at the most. In football, somehow, if you're on the subs bench, it's regarded as minimizing you. But here's the point. Yeah, if you're Butler or Yedige and you're Raheem Sterling, you're not a finisher. You're just trying to soak some minutes out of the legs of the starters. But if you're Leo Troussard and you're Gabriel Martinelli and you're Kai Havertz and you're Piero and Cappier and you're Christian Norgent, these are players that are finishers because they can start at an elite level and they have a specific role to win a game and they won the game. So before we come on to celebrating the individuals, Clive, if you're going to praise the squad, I think we've got this wrong.

44:44Paul Williams:It's not about rotation. It's about using players in the game to suit the game environment. And that does make them finishers. And if you want to get upset about language, be my guest. But I think this makes complete sense. Yeah.

44:58Clive Palmer:So where do we go with that question so i will say this is something that i have spoken about for many years here about my liking for rugby and how they use substitutes in that game right so that they have they have eight substitutes right so they normally have forwards and backs and south africa are the best this and they were the first ones to go like seven forwards one back and they called them the bomb squad and when they came on they changed the game and eddie jones i know i coached michael arteta spent many hours with um he called he was the first one to coin the phrase in my experience coin the phrase finishes and i brought this to the podcast because i thought when we went to the five sub rule i felt that this was a part of the game that we hadn't really analyzed yet and used properly yet and we didn't really have to squad to do it yet right so hence why i don't care about start 11s we can change five players what matters is your ability to see the the momentum's in the game and adapt have you got the tools in your toolbox to adapt to what the game is showing you and can you make those changes to impact the game from the very early days of years ago so i mentioned here before when alex ferguson had four forwards and when york and cole went off shayna masolskar came on and we had to beat them twice and it felt like it was really hard those things stay in you right so have the ability to make changes like this is so important and so i think renee slager is the women's manager i think she calls them game changers just another name for people to make sure and what happened in the champions league final two of the game changers come on go and assist won a trophy for second time in our history this is just sports this is sport mate in the non-league where I coached I wouldn't be calling them finishers they'd be subs right just the environment that you're in when you're in elite environment when you've got multi-millionaire sportsmen that could choose other clubs to be you need to keep them included so how do you keep them included by letting them know they're going to have a role to play again sometimes in some in some squads they're told like in tournament particularly Miss Serena Viggo in the summer she told everybody what they're going to be what their roles were you're going to be a star this players out you'll you'll be a you and if you're on the bench if this players out you're going to come on and for some of the bench players they knew the minute they were going to come on right so it's us who have to mature mate they're just subs just on the bench that's who they are if you don't want to mature you're thinking then you're not looking like how many games in the late latter stages of the of the games recently if their ability to change games add more speed add more development to affect teams when they're tired and so there was a debate about the fight sub rule when it was um coming in and i was all for it you know i was earlier but it favors the bigger clubs with the bigger squads well guess what we are now one of the bigger clubs with the bigger squads and we can make changes to to kill games i wish we had and people laugh but i wish we had christian nor guard fit and available for anfield because i don't think they slides first late in the game when we were tiring and we had to keep certain people on right so we have that ability and call them whatever you like the most important thing is we have we have dressing room harmony and those people feel included and connected and that is the message that's coming out of the group at the moment that may change towards the end of the season when you get into winning time and you've had two months sitting on your ass because we're trying to win something and you realize where you are in the hierarchy okay i had no i need to make a change because i don't think i'm going to convince him and then we have a new selling strategy that will change but right now inclusion being inclusive is the key because we are playing i'll say just for scott we are playing every three days from now till christmas so um so we're gonna need them three times a week three times a week so yeah scott just smashed his radio so um so yeah three times every three days from now till christmas and this is i'm all for this mate this is just high performance language that's all it is yeah pop look and the word sub or substitute comes from a time when you could make one change to a player who was injured and you were substituting that player and the game's totally different as as clive has outlined if you were picking a word today, it would not be substitute.

49:34I don't know what it would be. Maybe it wouldn't be finisher, but it wouldn't be substitute. You got five players. You got three chances. It's tactical. It's strategic. You're not going like for like. It's not a substitute. So you don't like his word. Okay. Come up with another word that embodies the fact that you're making a strategic change in the most important part of the game in important games. the last...

49:59Paul Williams:Yeah, Paul, you can change up to half of the outfield players. Yeah. In the most important part of the game, unless you're having an easy game, the last 20 to 25 minutes is literally the most important part of the game. You can be 1-0 up, 1-0 down, level. It don't matter. The most important 25 minutes of the game is about to happen. Everybody wants to start. There's no getting away from that. Everybody wants to be picked in the starting lineup. On the other hand, if you get pulled off the pitch at 60 minutes every game or 65 minutes every game, you're going to get pretty cheesed off too, because you're being told you're not one of the most important players to play in the most important part of the game.

50:40So it's not just about, oh, well, the subs don't like being subs. The starters don't like getting yanked because the fun's just getting started at that point. And in this game, the fun was just getting started and players got yanked off the pitch and they won't love that. And that's the nature of football because the most important part of the game was about to happen and we brought on the subs and hey presto.

51:06Paul Williams:Yeah. And this is the beautiful thing because Leo Trussard and Gabriel Martinelli have been two of the most important players of this era, but I think they are widely regarded as players who maybe were getting towards the end of their relevance to this year. Both were talked about as possible sale potentials this summer. And I know that there's huge affection for both these players, especially Gabriel Martinelli. And he was a player that I absolutely adored, but started to think maybe the level of the team is moving past him. But I think this is what's so beautiful about football. Sometimes you can find a role in a team that lets you really thrive and express the quality you have and rediscover your quality that is not go out there and play 90 minutes on the left wing for a team that needs to win the Premier League and the Champions League, and if you don't deliver every game, you're the villain, but is instead a chance to be a hero in critical moments where things like your pace and your relentless running and your defensive awareness can really be celebrated.

52:08Paul Williams:And I am so happy because whatever you think of these players, especially Gabriel Martinelli, he is so easy to like and root for. and Mikel was full of praise for him as he should be. First voice says, if the boss will get an assist for his Martinelli substitution, it's always very difficult emotionally to leave players out. I know how much they want to play this competition and what it means to them. By the way, that is, I'm sure, a message to other players like Miles Lewis-Skelly and Ethan Winery. Every time you give the lineup, you are disappointing a lot of players. But to have that experience, I looked on the bench, I looked at him and in his eyes, I could see that he was ready.

52:47Paul Williams:Leo as well. They play with the confidence and that connection between them as well. And it's really good. I think that's going to help us a lot for the season. And if Gabby had a point to prove, I was sure that Gabby was going to react like that. He raised the level to Gabby and he was going to do that. He's such a mentality. He's a player that is constantly willing to learn and improve himself. Very demanding with himself. That's the moment that hopefully is going to give him the confidence again to go because he's done a stunning play. I'm going to keep reading some Mikel quotes. I'm sorry, Clive, but they're so good on him.

53:18Paul Williams:Fully deserved it. I adore Gabby. His attitude, his commitment, his positivity, what he's willing to do for the team. Externally, we certainly value all the qualities that he has and brings to the team. And I'm so happy that today he was important in the two actions. He was also celebrated for his goal by the team. You could see how much it meant to them. And Mikel said, that's the spirit. That's why I really enjoy every single day working with them, being part of this team, because the way they look after each other is genuine and they really want the best for each other. They recognize someone that works every day in a manner that Gabby does.

53:48Paul Williams:And you can go through struggles or moments and recognizing that and having the capacity to connect with him, I think it would mean a lot to him. I just love that Mikkel was so open in his comments there and I think said more than maybe he's inclined to do, but it gives you the picture of - Fulsome in his comments. Isn't Fulsome the opposite? Fulsome is when it's not - That's what I'm thinking of, books. Books. I don't think that's it. Anyway, Clive, rescue us here. I think what he means to the group, what that goal means to him, and this role being one that he can really grab with both hands, I think it's potentially a very significant moment for him.

54:22Clive Palmer:Yeah, well, he's shown that he can impact on the bench, which he's done before. We just forgot, right? I can remember when we beat City 1-0. He came back from Hamstring early, and he came on at halftime, and that game changed by his presence. And he scored the winning goal with a deflection. So he has been that player in the past. there have been times when he's starting every single week that his performances have dipped and flattened out a little bit guess what we just bought a couple of players that can play in that position madweki and ese we better start running about does that mean and that's the truth he's called competition how to you know his goal was great we've seen it before we've seen it in seville we've seen it in madrid so we know he can do that but you know what i really loved the assist i really loved it because as he received that ball on the touchline what did he do did he wait or did he go he went mate he went for him and the guy was on his heels he took him on the outside and found the person in the box that's all it is be direct you're a runner run honestly it's that simple you may not have the skills of a sacker or an ese but you can run mate with anybody so run now be direct be that player i think maduweke has really shown and his game is just the same simple running and carrying but he does it with real aggression and speed and now now we have martin ellie as well so there will be a period whether he starts on sunday i'm not sure we'll probably get saturday in the podcast but he'll start a couple of games soon and and i hope he does because it's key that he feels connected the same rules i'm i think that one of the biggest issues that european football has is the amount of games that are played particularly by the elite players are also playing internationals and so the way you keep them happy is to make sure they're not overplayed and their careers don't get shortened you know because that's when other leagues in spain and saudi arabia can offer them more money for less work and that's what you don't want anyone can get more money for less work they may take it particularly if the competition my sporting side of things is is of a similar level and that's not the case today the highest there was in the Premier League but don't assume that everyone's going to stay and watch their careers get run out by injury we have to make sure we have alternatives we have to make sure as a club we want to reach the highest level of European football the highest level we are not going to do that by having the first 11 and having nicey-nicey players that are not being pushed to their absolute limits and Martinelli has responded exactly as the manager would hope he'd respond and I thought he

56:55Paul Williams:was eye-openingly good when he came on he was really good at both ends switched on his assist might be better than his goal because too often when he's on the left he doesn't find a way past his man he doesn't find the right move the the way he gets by his guy to the byline and doesn't just smash it but picks out leo was brilliant the funny thing with the goal it shows you why football is such a cruel sport because against psg i think he took his chance well and it's a good save. Hits it low, across the keeper, exactly what you're meant to do. There's a defender closing in on him. And Donnarumma gets down and makes a great save.

57:29Paul Williams:Donnarumma was great in that tie. And it's not a goal and people get on him about it. In this game, the keeper lets it get under him. But you know what? He deserves it for his endeavor and his touch and his running and what he did. And I'm so happy for him. And he just, he feels like a player that needed it to go for him, you know, because he's had other moments where I don't think he did much wrong and it didn't go for him. And Mikel talked about his confidence. And when the manager's talking about your confidence, you know it's not just things fans are seeing. It's real. Right? And this is great.

57:58Paul Williams:And then what does he do later in the game with that confidence? He beats his man dynamically to the byline, gets past him, sets up Leo. Leo controls, touch, score. Again, another thing. Last season, every time we kicked a ball and it deflected, it deflected wide of the post. You know what I mean? Every time the ball hit the chest of the opponent, it bounced into our goal. This season, against Forrest, the Chris Wood chest bounces Raya gets to it. Leo takes a shot. It deflects. It goes in. These are the little margins. The little differences. Martinelli takes a shot. It gets under the keeper instead of the keeper getting down brilliantly to stop it.

58:31Paul Williams:Sometimes in football, it's not the things you control. It's the things you don't control that make the difference because it's a low-scoring sport. So, Paul, a huge moment for Martinelli. I think a moment that will, first of all, hopefully keep him really energized and charged up for the role that he has in the team right now. But also, it's not like Eze was brilliant in this game. Martinelli is going to push, and this is the beautiful thing about a deep squad. Kaio Saka is going to come back. What's Nani's role going to be? They are going to push each other hard to be the one that gets to be out there from the start.

59:02Yeah. Look, I like his finish more than you do. I don't think it was a quality finish. I think he did the right thing. He got it low, hard enough.

59:11Paul Williams:It's not as wide as he probably wanted it to be of the keeper. Look, he goes in. Who cares? Well, I don't know. If you go wide, you better have precision. If you're playing the numbers, you play it just to the one side of the keeper so he can't get down to it. Okay, it doesn't look pretty. It's a bit flubbed. I think he did what, if you were coaching a player, an attacker, you'd say, put it low and hard near the keeper and don't go for accuracy. You're just on the pitch. It's his first touch. Like, I'm fine with it. I'm not saying it's brilliant. I don't want to be cast as the one saying it's bad.

59:43Paul Williams:So I am going to concede the point here because I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying he gets a little bit of the fortune that he hadn't been getting. You know what I'm saying?

59:50Clive Palmer:Paul's got a good point there. He went by the keeper's feet. It's the hardest place to get to. The keeper's got to collapse his body and try to hit the floor. whether he tried to do that or not i don't care but what i do like is he accelerated into that shot so he had he's accelerating into that touch rather than than falling away he heard me speak about when he falls away without the acceleration so he accelerated in bang then he fell away afterwards he got the power and the keeper couldn't react so that works for me mate it's in the net right works for me yep and i want to see more situations where we use martinelli in this mode Clive and I have chatted a little bit on previous pods that he's a very reasonable substitute for Jokeres at that particular moment of the game.

1:00:32And okay, he wasn't playing striker, but that was pretty close to a striker-ish running off the back into space. Oh, and by the way, have a look at Marino's pass to get us out of trouble on the right-hand side, across to Rice, to Martinelli for the assist. to Trossard. It's a fantastic sweeping ball. It's a big switch. It's a big switch. Yeah, really good, big, quick switch. He does a lot of that stuff. And it's not beautiful, constructed number 10 play. I will grant you. But he has three or four of those moments where he does actually put in a ball that opens up the game.

1:01:16Paul Williams:And that's how we got our goal. Well, and you know what, Paul? I think there's something here for Nani too, which is that I think you're right. Martinelli with his pace and his relentless running is such a good finisher, right? For the last 20 minutes of a game. You know who else has the attributes to be a great finisher is Nani, right? Because of that relentless carrying, driving, running, pushing, pushing, pushing. And so if Pakao Saka isn't a guy we want playing 90 minutes, and if Eze, from a physical profile, isn't going to challenge a defense for 90 minutes, you have two guys that really can.

1:01:48Paul Williams:But you also have the other... Can I say something on Maduaki? Like, I think you're right, but I think the issue with him is he'd have to make an interesting adjustment. Because if you look at his touch map, I'm absolutely hypnotized by it. This game, the last game, I'm going to look at a few more. All his touches are exactly where you picture they should be, within a five-yard strip of the touchline. It's beautiful. like billions of them all along the touchline and around kind of the corner flag towards the box and in the box. It's like this L shape. He doesn't come in field. So he'd have quite an adjustment.

1:02:27He'd have to change quite a bit of his game. Obviously he has attributes, but he has the most decided game. Like it meets the eye test. He's so clear about what he's on the pitch. He is a winger. Yeah. He has paint on his boots, Elliot. Can Saka move inside or can Eze play with?

1:02:46Paul Williams:Nani's a winger. And I will say, if we made Scott angry before with anything, we're going to make him angriest now with the billions of touches on the touchline. That's definitely not the statistic. He'll be stalking his podcast immediately. Immediately. The social post is being written as we speak. Clive, the Leo performance, I just feel like he is a player that confounds analysis sometimes, but you know what he does? He influences games. He comes on against Forrest, he gets an assist. He comes on here, he gets an assist and a goal. And it's just, you're never going to be in bad shape using a guy who seems to always find a way to give you end product.

1:03:22Paul Williams:And I do think attitude's an interesting thing, right? Because in Martinelli, you have a guy who always has a smile on his face, who always is so positive. And in Leo, you have a guy who seems angry all the time. And they both seem to find a way to have it motivate them to give what they need to.

1:03:35Clive Palmer:Yeah, I thought he looked happy in this game, I'll be honest with you. I thought he looked really good. I thought he looked really sharp and really good. and I'm really enjoying this team. I was talking to Tim this morning about the women's team, but also the men's team and the focus that they have at the moment in all of their actions. So everything doesn't come off right, but it's the reaction to something that's gone wrong. So there's a... Leo in this game looked just smooth across the pitch, really bright. When he starts moving like that, he's hard to find. He read the assist beautifully, helped it on and you look at him and you think oh mate you've got to start the next game but we've been manned that path haven't we when he starts the next game we don't see him for 45 minutes and then he gets hooked comes on next game angry and man a match you know this is the cycle that we're used to but this whole thing at the moment it could be interesting to see how Arteta manages these things because there was a really nice interview with Ali McCoy's pre-game where and Ali McCoy's For those who don't know, his next Rangers player works for TNT Sport.

1:04:44Clive Palmer:Mikel Arteta played for Rangers back in the day. So there's a kinship there. They weren't on the same team. There's a kinship there, right? And to see the interview where Mikel was relaxed, he was really opening up. You can find it on TNT Sports YouTube. And one of the things he said, he spoke about the PSG game. and he said, if I had Kai, Gabriel, Jesus and Saka, who was not injured, who knows? We could have won it last year. He knows he would have been really close. We were close anyway to getting past PSG. Interland, it was one game too many. That's how close the margins are. That word we spoke to last year earlier about condition, being in the right condition, not being on the pitch, but being on the pitch in the right condition.

1:05:30Clive Palmer:that's what we're trying to do we haven't done that yet we haven't done that last piece yet so leo martinelli mosquera all of them nor guard are all critical to us to be on the pitch in the right condition with our star players available to be there when it really really counts and that's it for me the focus on the details the focus on making sure we're there when it counts it seems massive i can't i can't stop looking at it there's a moment in this game when late in the game there was a corner big gabby was in the box he was the furthest man forward they broke forward within a second it felt like we had 10 people behind the ball in zone 14 competing for it that stuff tells you about our focus the reaction to adversity how quickly we get behind the ball i think anyone who's not buying in we'd know already seriously we would know we'd be clear because their focus is so high that someone would stand out at this moment in time everyone's on the

1:06:35Paul Williams:boat so far yeah uh as a reminder there was a nasty clash of heads in this game between jokras and gabriel according to michael they're both fine so that's good news there i think we put a bow on this game and shift gears to get a quick preview in for the manchester city game coming up on sunday but just as a note again this was 1.3 to 0.3 xg and since the united game we've conceded 0.2 xg to leads 0.5 xg at liverpool 0.2 xg to nottingham forest and 0.3 xg at atleti we've conceded uh zero goals to united zero goals to lead one to liverpool zero to forest zero to athletic club it's it's just really impressive and the extent to which it will be celebrated will depend on whether we get enough goals to achieve what we want, but this team has it when it comes to the way it controls that part of the pitch.

1:07:28Paul Williams:As of time of recording, Manchester City have not even played their Champions League tie yet. They play Napoli at home on Thursday and then play Arsenal away on Sunday, which I'm sure Pep won't mention. We won't hear anything about that, but this is a bit of a fortuitous scheduling scenario for us in this game, I would say. We don't have any update on Saka or Saliba, but Saliba was on the bench in Spain, so I would imagine he's fit to come in. So I'll start with you, Clive. You know, City have not looked convincing in their duels in midfield and in their defensive organization, but the attack does have the best XG in the Premier League, and Holland is in a little bit of frightening form.

1:08:14Paul Williams:How are you sending us out for this game?

1:08:19Clive Palmer:I mean, let's see if he's fit right. I would play Sleever. You know, we're talking about somebody who is the best defender in the world. So let's not pretend. Even looking at the squad photo, there's Sleever, he's like the biggest, strongest man. He's like, okay, why would you leave him on the bench? I still think Gabby would win that fight, but okay. Why would you leave him on the bench for any longer than he actually need to? You know what I mean? This is, again, back to the levels. This is Erling Haaland. the best centre forward in the world. What do Man City want? Right? So very simple, right?

1:08:55Clive Palmer:So if Sleever's fit, he plays. And as for the fullbacks, I think he'd be a similar back four. We have a game in midweek afterwards where we can rest people. So I think Jurentimba looks like an 80-minute player to me at the moment, but those 80 minutes are brilliant and the last 10 he cuts out. So we've got a player that can take that burden off him, but he's not around at the moment. But I do think Mosquera may end up ending the game. as a fullback if we are fatiguing in that area and we've got left side who's to die for I thought Incavi looks quite sharp doesn't he he looks like it could be a problem for the referee's notebook is what's the space there and the midfielder I think Oligard returns I do I think we go back to what our normal midfield will be or the is with Mendy and Rice and the front three I'm not sure where Saka is at the time of recording I'm not sure where he is I think he's due back this week the difference I find with him versus say Saliba is it's a sprinting position you know in a high intensity position so you might want to be a bit more cautious with that one because he's had a couple of hamstrings now though it's a different one but if he turns up in the training videos anytime now we'll all be picking him right because he's quality right so but again they can share the game so it's not a drama I don't know if you're going to talk about Eze but I thought I looked at Eze game versus the Forest game.

1:10:19Clive Palmer:I think he had 43 touches versus Forest. He had 40 touches versus Bilbao. Different game, different context. You reminded me quite astutely how many duels he won. We didn't buy Eze to win duels. And there's people wondering where he's standing. I think there are opportunities to develop him by how we pass to him. Do you remember the old Ben White to Saka pass inverted inside and Saka rolls inside and that pass we used to do? Saka wouldn't receive it standing still on the touch side and getting booted up his ass. We need to do similar things for Eze to allow him to flow inside and be more impactful because when he flows inside, he looks like a different player completely.

1:10:55Clive Palmer:He sees the pitch. He's got a range of paths. He can combine short one-twos and get it back again. When he gets it back in the crowd scene, he's got soft feet and he can progress from there. But we've got to give him the ball in a way that he can get momentum rather than giving it to him standing still. So what he'll do, manipulate it, protect it and drop it back. that's not what we really want to see all the time you know i understand control but can we get that angle path into him from california off the touchline into him so he can travel in and so these things we need to learn and get him going again don't listen to the narratives around him being a left winger if we've got a heat maps for both games which i did there's not much difference between the forest game and the build battle game you know so it's about us giving more opportunities to travel through the thirds really is and so so i would go with that i would go with that i'd go So the similar front three we've had, but maybe Saka off the bench if he's fit.

1:11:47Clive Palmer:And then we've got ability to speed up off the bench, haven't we? So I'll go that way.

1:11:54Paul Williams:It's tough. There's a part of me that just says, if Saka's fit, start him. Yeah. Who's Bakayo Saka. But we've seen Bakayo Saka when he's not fully powered up. And like a lot of amazing players, similar to Declan Rice, you just don't see the same Bakayo Saka. but if he said to me we're going to have one half chance to create a goal or score a goal I still back him to be the one that does it I mean you've always called this out Clive he's the guy that does the first big thing that gets us the goal to send us on our way I just want to say

1:12:22Clive Palmer:as we're recording we just haven't even seen a picture of him for a few days do you see what I mean we don't know where he is and that's by design I'm sure that could change in like an hour or two you know what I mean and we'll see a picture and we'll all be picking him right because he's the best player in our team right so

1:12:36Paul Williams:simple can we focus on one area in particular paul just quickly and then i want to talk a little bit about conservative approach versus aggressive approach the position i want to ask you about is left back this is the miles lewis skelly derby right the stay humble derby miles lewis skelly not getting a lot of minutes at the moment and cap is now here califiori has become the starter but califiori a player he did take a pretty brutal kick on his achilles by the way against athletic club. Not necessarily renowned for his defensive work, although I think it's been much better this season and not a huge source of an issue.

1:13:11Paul Williams:But what do you think about left back and where Miles is at the moment, if there's a chance he might come in for this game with everything in the background of this rivalry? How do you think about that position? It's an interesting one just looking at the left side because Eze and Calafiore are not what I would line up as the most robust defensive unit when we're pushed back in that side and i do think that's an area man city are going to target so the coach and but we should mention where they can be targeted to united had big joy down both wide spaces both touch lines i think city's defensive edges are very fragile yes so on the other hand there's just a big choice to make here and I think you've got to look at pairs of players.

1:14:03And yeah, look, Lewis Skelly seems to be a step down at the moment and Calafiore, you know, one point I wanted to make on this conservative lineup we had, air quotes on conservative and the same as with Liverpool, is I don't think the manager ever thinks it's that conservative a lineup if he's got Calafiore in the team with a license to roam into midfield. In either game was it the deciding factor by any means. but obviously that's his free man roaming into midfield which shakes things up and you've got a lot of movement with Marino, Rice and Zubimendi all kind of rotating with each other to some degree at least in pairs there's a lot of fluidity there and I think that's the manager does not see that as a conservative pick any time it's those three guys plus Calafiore the Maslow-Skelly one feels it's one of those you need a few more data points but it definitely feels like he's kind of put him a level down that when Califiori is fit at the moment it's Califiori and we do have to remember if we're true to our concept of finishers that this in particular this Man City game is going to be a big game for who starts who comes on at 70 minutes and on the left hand side look the manager could pick Martinelli after the goal and use that as the excuse and lean on his defensive nous to start.

1:15:31Or to your point, it's at home. We need to go at them. We need to take the initiative. We start with Eze. Martinelli comes on at 70 minutes. Calafiori could be in all sorts of trouble with yellow cards at that stage of the game if that's the area they're targeting. And Mazluis Skelly comes on there. And the one thing you would say about Mazluis Skelly is he might have a career for this next season of being the guy that comes on at 65, 70 minutes and plays really important minutes and, of course, has a number of starts. But it definitely feels like he's down the pecking order and I'm sure that'll be difficult for him because last year was a meteoric rise where he was never out of the team once he was in it and he played great.

1:16:18But Arteta, for all the conservative labels, likes Calafiore because the guy might do anything at any moment as a midfielder, as an attacker, as a winger, as a striker, and he wants him on the pitch. I think he wants his toys. Against Man City, he wants to bring his toys, and one of his toys is Calafiore. At this stage, another of them is Eze. And if he can get Odegaard on the pitch, he'll go with a very attacking lineup. I think Saka is an absolute candidate for a substitute role, or rather a finisher role coming on at 70 minutes.

1:16:54Paul Williams:Yeah. Clive, I, as you know, bristled against the claim of conservatism at Anfield for so many reasons. Firstly, we watched the game and I don't think it was a conservative approach. Secondly, I think just what was available to select. Thirdly, I think the actual fixture itself and what it demanded. This is a slightly different one because City look very vulnerable, but City are themselves very potent. and Mikel Arteta has not in his time at Arsenal ever demonstrated that he wants to get into basketball games and just go punch for punch with teams and certainly if you go punch for punch with Erling Holland you can wind up flat on your back we've had some success against them controlling games keeping it tight and trying to nick it you know here and there but people get frustrated with that approach I think they'll be looking to see if Odegaard is back and can play and if it's Ethan or are we going to go Rice, Marino and Zuby again and people are going to be looking to see that area of the pitch in particular, but also just whether we are aggressive in our attempts to take advantage of what's regarded as Manchester City's frailty.

1:17:56Paul Williams:Now, the irony, of course, is I regard one of their biggest frailties as their midfield weakness and inability to win duels and control games. I think that they can get physically boshed out of games with Reiners, who's not particularly strong in that area, whoever they want to play in the other midfield other than rodri i think we can have a big advantage here i i'm torn on this one how do you see it how do you see our ability to to not be seen as conservative but to actually address the strengths and

1:18:24Clive Palmer:weaknesses of manchester city yeah so the two home games that i've seen um we just we've looked really sharp and really progressive and really our intent to play has been really really positive like the forest game was i i couldn't find anything wrong with it you know maybe left a goal on the table that's it right so so i'm expecting us to play them he's gonna be interested to see what he does because he has a lot of respect for pep and his ability to see our weaknesses etc but i think he feels more confident with players than he has i look at city's team and i go straight to full backs area i got cousin off there right he is like um how can i say he's like romero playing right back he's he just chases after rabbits goes bang bang bang i think you need someone that understands had to manipulate the ball against him, got a bit of authority on him.

1:19:14Clive Palmer:I like the ASA matchup with him. You don't need a running race per se because Kudnoff is really, really quick, but he's someone who's got a brain because he hasn't got one. Right? So they played Nathan O 'Reilly. Nathan O 'Reilly, I think his name is. He's a tall player, plays number 10 for the youth teams. He's coming to the first team as a left back. He's very, very leggy. Well, they play Aiton O 'Reilly there. I'm not sure where he is at the moment. both of them look nice don't look robust don't look robust enough to handle us in our strongest area right so will they bring in nathan aki for this game he came back late last game he has a history of doing quite well at the emirants when they won the league um when they went to win the treble actually i think he came into their back four they went to that back four the center back back four and went from there and won the treble right so i think he may come in they're gonna want to be physical against us right so guardiol nathan aki diaz stones which one they're going to want to be physical with us and i would if i'm them don't rock up with rico lewis mate and and eight nori if you do that you could be in a bit of trouble because you don't dominate the ball like you used to you don't dominate areas like you used to this isn't five aside this is football we'll make the pitch big and we'll run all over them so the midfield three foden found himself in the 10 are they going to do that experiment again we'll watch tonight against napoli and see with Ryan Ders and Rodri and they can all play.

1:20:36Clive Palmer:When you close your eyes you can see everything they do but apart from Rodri when you close your eyes what do they do running backwards? And that's the thing. Can we get them running backwards? So the big boy up front he's on his game, right? It's clear to see. He's on his game. He's back to his charge. He's ready to go. And he's going to bring his A game versus us because we don't like him and we told him. And our centre-backs are ready for him. and they know they are the ones that can handle him. But even in the game when we handled him last year, he scored a beautiful header in the box. So yeah, we get to be on our game.

1:21:13Clive Palmer:But I'm hoping that we can show people, by the way, when we have got more of our players available, when we're at home, this is what we do. And I'm really hopeful for that. But in the end, it's not about appeasing the pundits. is about winning the marathon. That's what we've got to do. And because we dropped them points at Liverpool, we need to make sure we get the points against Manchester City and Newcastle. That's where my eyes are. It's a pair of games. If we do well in, we're set in a stretch of games to do really well. So a very important game in it.

1:21:48Paul Williams:And two of the most opposite games you could possibly hope to face because I think physically Manchester City will struggle to compete with us. I think with Newcastle, It's always about can you win the physical contest or at least stay competitive in the physical contest without Joel Linton hurting someone. Paul, just super quick, your key to success and key to failure. What's the one thing you regard as the thing we kind of must do to come out on top and the thing we mustn't do? The thing we, you'll win a lot of games with a strong defense. So that's got to pan out. We've got to have a level of a platform that allows us to attack at home with our crowd behind us.

1:22:35It'll be a great occasion, a great day. So the attacking is kind of a given. So with our defense, and that's why I just have a slight... My eye goes to the left-hand side and Calafiore. I think you're right that we're going to go Calafiore and Eze. but there will be the need for Gabriel to provide a little bit of additional cover there and that does stretch us a little bit out of the back but those are the choices you make so that's got to hold up. I think actually, you know, if I'm going to pick one thing it's the bench. This will be a game won by the team that has the stronger starting lineup but even more so.

1:23:20how does that last 20 minutes 25 minutes play out and i think our options could be great i think it could well be sack off the bench um martinelli off the bench um and you know marino playing a a tactical role if that's the nature of the game to kind of get in there and battle for the last 10-15 so i think it in the end it'll come down to i'd like imagine that going if we had to say some number of seasons from now we will see ourselves as stronger than manchester city like they're dangerous they can hurt you but that our bench might be the more impressive bench to go into this derby with i mean that that's amazing on the upside um yeah the worry you know the the The one vulnerability is getting that left-hand side right.

1:24:15I think we agree who should start, but I'm sure when they draw up the tactics board, it's going to have a lot to do with our left-hand corner of the pitch and stretching us with Haaland runs and clever players on the right to get in in that particular area.

1:24:35Paul Williams:They're not super well set up to attack it, ironically, because the player that I think I'd be scared about Calafiore facing would be a Doku, but Doku doesn't attack that side, right?

1:24:43Clive Palmer:I was going to say Savino, Elliot. I think they might play Savino on that side.

1:24:47Paul Williams:He hasn't been playing at all.

1:24:48Clive Palmer:He hasn't been playing, but if I'm them, he's the one that makes me think, because if I'm them, I'm thinking, I want that Califuri staying at home. I don't want him floating around the pitch flicking his barley at me. I need him staying at home. I don't want him to get confident and stride him through my refilled because I ain't got the bodies to manage him. So I need to pin him back. they played Bernardo Silva in the last game in that position against United where he would roll inside and overload Manchester United's two-man midfield job done right game over they're at home it's not a problem for them right so but against us I'm not sure they're going to play Bernardo on the right wing if they do Kofi was just going to munch him right so you need a sharper player a ball player sprinter so he's either Oscar Bob or it's or it's Savinho I would go Savinho only because he's had a good game against us in that 2-2 game.

1:25:38Clive Palmer:So I've got a memory of him, right? So I want our fullbacks back at home and I want our midfield to have their midfield and it's man for man, right? And we go man for man, but I need to keep their fullbacks off me, right? So that's what I would do, right? But Karefury doesn't care, right? He just goes. And we go man for man. We go Saliba on Harlan one-on-one or Gabriel on Harlan one-on-one or if it's Timber. So he hasn't got a dope to pick on back there, right? because they want it with him. Do you see what I mean? And so I do like the Califiori pick. He doesn't have to end the game, Paul. Do you know what I mean?

1:26:12Clive Palmer:He hasn't got to end it because I'll tell you now that Hinkapi, I think he's going to be the left backer. You see what I mean? And I think Califiori will spend a bit more time potentially at centre-back, you know, because we can't keep playing Gabriel every single game. You know, so that would be an interesting one for him to help keep him fit. That's just my shout anyway. Paul, quickly. I think they're going to try and get Bernardo Silva in that area of the pitch, the Calafiore area of the pitch, even if he's not right wing. You can just picture him trying to dribble into the penalty box in and around Calafiore, trying to make his legs look a little slow.

1:26:49If you want to look where my fears are, they're going to try and make stuff happen in that area of the pitch with a fast winger potentially and Bernardo Silva trying to cause havoc, twist us around, get him behind Calafiore, make his head swivel. You asked my dark thoughts. Those are my dark thoughts.

1:27:12Paul Williams:I think, look, this is really simple. They can't take the lead. Do not let them take the lead. If I noticed one thing in the United game, it was that they started to play off the ball and then they just slaughtered United on the counter. I mean, Holland's running in behind is relentless. And I think you want them feeling like they need to come on to you more and have the ball more because when they lose possession, I don't think they have the ability to control games. And I think they lose possession a little more than they used to in midfield. Reiners is technically excellent, but physically, I'm not sure he's at the level.

1:27:41Paul Williams:Who are they even going to play in midfield with him? Foden? Are they going to go Foden? Reiners? and if they go Foden, Reiners and Rodri against us in midfield, that feels like asking for trouble. I mean, that's tissue paper soft. So I don't know if they will do that. I would expect them to bring Bernardo Silva into midfield actually, which I think gives them a little more guile and control than Foden does. And maybe Foden drops out and they go with Bob or they go with Savino off one flank. and I don't know, Doku off the other. And it's not that Doku doesn't scare me, but Timber is the one guy I think, you know, can live with a tricky winger.

1:28:22Paul Williams:So we'll see. It's going to be really interesting. I mean, we know where the danger comes from with them and we know where the battle has to be won. So I feel pretty confident in our ability to do it. I think there's going to be a lot of narrative going into this about are we adventurous enough? But also if Odegaard's not fit, are we going to pick Ethan over Marino in this game? You know, I don't know. Will he go with Martinelli over Eze for his running at both ends? A lot of good choices he can make, and we will just have to see what happens. Let's leave it there. I'm going to throw to an interview I did with Boyce.

1:28:57Paul Williams:It's 10 minutes long about the KC Gooners. Kansas City is a football town and what to expect this weekend because we'd love to see you there. But we will have a pod for you on Patreon tomorrow and an instant reaction with a very drunk Clive, hopefully voice noting from the Emirates on Sunday and maybe even Paul and I physically together from Kansas City doing the IR that day. We'll see what to make of that. So thank you very much, Paul. Woo-hoo! Thanks a lot.

1:29:20Clive Palmer:Thank you very much.

1:29:21Paul Williams:My name is Elliott Smith. Here is me and boys. Okay, before we get out of here, I want to tell you about an event we have coming up. The Chicago event will be the weekend of the West Ham game, but coming up in just a couple of days, there's NBC Fan Fest in Kansas City in the Power and Light District. There's going to be a lot of great Arsenal fans there. There are going to be some not-so-great Arsenal fans there. myself and Paul included, but hopefully you will come see us and all the other things as well. And we're going to be doing an event there. And I thought a cool opportunity for us to say hello to one of the men behind the KC Gooners and to tell us more about the city, the football history there, the Arsenal background there, and the event that's coming up.

1:29:56Paul Williams:So we will do all that in 10 minutes or less with Boyce Richardson. Hello, Boyce. Hello, Elliot. How are you this evening? You know, I'm doing pretty well. The kids are mostly asleep, which is a miracle. But you know what, by the time I'm done recording this, I'm sure they will have woken up and given me something else to do, which is great. That way my evening won't be boring. But I, first of all, I appreciate you coming on. I'm really excited to see you, to spend some time in Kansas City, to talk Arsenal together, to share some what should be fun times, hopefully, with all the great gooners in Kansas City and from around the area and then watch us stomp Manchester City.

1:30:27Paul Williams:But before we get into the Arsenal of it, I think there's probably a sense when they announced that the FanFest was going to be in Kansas City of, well, why Kansas City? And the people who don't know, there's a really, really big football, red soccer tradition and history and support in Kansas City. So can you just tell us a little bit about Kansas City as a football town? Absolutely. Obviously, Sporting Kansas City, previously known as the Wiz, previously known as the Wizards, was one of the original founding members of MLS in 1996. we had an NWSL team KCFC for a long time the Wizards won in 2000 the Supporters' Shield which is something that's well-renowned around here supporting Kansas City last won the title in 2013 in the MLS Cup obviously FCKC have won multiple titles over the course of time and the current seem very well positioned to potentially win the NWSL title this year so the soccer capital of America moniker that we sort of self-imposed upon ourselves is well-earned at least it feels here.

1:31:29Paul Williams:Yeah, and it is a town that has passionate support for a number of different sports, obviously. A big, big sporting story taking place in Kansas City now with the tight end of the football team marrying Taylor Swift. So that is a big story, of course, as well. But setting that aside, what about the Arsenal tradition? Casey Gooners, a great group, huge support for Arsenal. I'm sure we're going to see that at FanFest, but can you give us a little bit of background on the Kansas City Gooners and the support for Arsenal there? Yeah, I started Casey Gunners in 2010. I had moved back from law school.

1:32:03Paul Williams:I was in North Carolina. I decided to start it. We started watching in my apartment in a complex called Western Auto here, which actually dominates the skyline in terms of the sign. You see downtown photos of Kansas City. the first big event that we ever had was at the A-10 zone for the 2011 League Cup final that we unfortunately lost to Obafemi Martins and Birmingham which is a really lovely start obviously you know things didn't really start in earnest until 2013 when NBC took over coverage but we started in 2011 and we would go to Johnny's which is where the American Outlaws watched and we kind of overtook that bar for the weekend whenever they would show matches on Fox sports or ESPN.

1:32:43Paul Williams:And then from 2013 on, we have been watching in earnest there for every match Champions League. Now that we're back in it, FA Cups, you know, 2014, 2015, 2017. And then we were ultimately, thanks to the living room that everyone is going to see on Saturday and Sunday of power and light. We were able to be one of the only groups that watched the FA Cup final in 2020 in person as a group, masked up and ready to go. But we were out there watching us beat Chelsea in that match. And it was extremely gratifying after all we had endured. I had a curiosity if you had to guess for this FanFest, because for people who don't know, NBC does one of these every year now.

1:33:22Paul Williams:It's a new tradition, but they pick a city. They bring the NBC crew out there. They have screens outside or set up viewing parties and all the different supporters groups are out. Is your expectation that Arsenal will be the most represented crew at the FanFest? What's the lay of the land there? I think if you look at any of our group photos, in Kansas City in comparison to some of the other incredible supporters groups that we have here. Spurs have a good presence. Chelsea, Liverpool, City attempt to keep up with us over the course of time. And I think you'll see on Sunday that they aren't able to match the numbers that we have.

1:33:54Paul Williams:I think that we've established an incredible group, a very diverse group, and a group that feels very much like a family that we've managed to maintain over the course of 15 years. Yeah, it's really special. I think for people who haven't had a chance to experience Arsenal support in the States, obviously, it's one big community of people that love Arsenal, but there are all these Arsenal supporter groups in different states and even different metro areas. And so it's really cool because within these larger communities of Arsenal supporters globally and then Arsenal supporters in America, you then have Arsenal supporters in certain state and in some instances, even in a certain metro.

1:34:29Paul Williams:And so a lot of friendships form that way. A lot of romantic relationships form that way. We've had a few. And sometimes end that way as well, depending on how it's going. We've had a few of those as well. Yeah. You know, there's always the occasional Matteo Guendouzi in the group, you know, who just throws a wrench in the things. But hey, since we're talking Kansas City, we can talk a little bit about the culture of the city. And it's a city that's known for a few things. I know it for Kansas City barbecue for people who haven't had it. Spare ribs slathered in a wonderful barbecue sauce. And there's a big schism in the barbecue community because you have dry rub and you have wet.

1:35:03Paul Williams:You have the Memphis barbecue, which I got to sample quite a bit when I lived in Nashville. Tell us a bit about the Kansas City barbecue and why it is superior. I mean, this is something that could go on for far longer than 10 minutes in isolation. I think even amongst denizens of the own city, I went to law school in North Carolina. So I have a little bit of the vinegar experience as well. It does not match, does not compare. Austin gets close. I'll give them that. But at the same time, as Anthony Bourdain said, as I think many people have repeated over the course of time, that a Z-Man at Oklahoma Joe's or just Joe's KC, as it is known now, is the quintessential seminal barbecue experience in America and in the world.

1:35:44Paul Williams:And I would argue with any person who would dare challenge that because it is the honest truth. I have to say, despite having lived in Tennessee briefly, where Memphis is renowned for its dry rub barbecue ribs approach, I prefer the Kansas City approach. And I presume and hope that I will have the chance to sample some of those while I'm in town. So we look forward to that. Let's just quickly talk about the event itself. And I'll give people some information who want it again. And we'll have this on all the socials. But Saturday, September 20th at Oak and Steel, which is on 120 West 17th Street.

1:36:20Paul Williams:Doors will open at 1. Our live show with Paul, Mike Feinberg and the Gooners pod, Nate Bacotti from KC Gooners and MLS, actually, will be there doing a panel, doing a show at Oak and Steel. So get there at 1. It'll start at 1.30 afterwards. We'll be hanging around for drinks. We'll be spending time together. There's lots of great football going on. And then on Sunday, we'll have a place to gather and watch Arsenal beat Man City with the watching world along with us for the ride. So first, let's talk about this panel event. You want to tell people about Oak and Steel and about this event and what you're expecting?

1:36:53Paul Williams:Yeah, so not only is it a panel event for FanFest weekend, it is actually Oak and Steel's, I believe, sixth anniversary. They opened shortly before the pandemic and then endured all of that. Then ultimately become sort of the seminal beer bar in Kansas City. Very excited to have people there. Kyle, the owner, is very excited to host people. We've scrambled together all the materials that we need in order to be able to get people there. It has a capacity of about 100 people plus an outdoor patio. So I think we'll be well covered for attendance-related purposes. And then every barrel-aged stout that you could ever possibly want in your entire life will be on tap thereafter, which could probably only end in disaster.

1:37:32Paul Williams:Look, I know there are a lot of fine British listeners who are saying American swill, not for me, mate, but I'm telling you, there is some good beer in this country. Although, admittedly, there's some great beer overseas as well. And then on Sunday, actually, for the FanFest itself and for the game, where should Gunners, who will be in the area, expect to gather? So our home pub is Johnny's. It's been that way since 2011. We share it with the American Outlaws as well. People will be there. I'll be there as early as 730 in the morning, although Johnny's will be open at five o 'clock on Sunday for FanFest on both Saturday and Sunday.

1:38:07Paul Williams:we will be gathering for the first half of the Arsenal women's match they actually play Manchester United at 8.50 in the morning with sort of a gathering time of about 9.45 to head out to the living room to be able to prepare for the pregame and the festivities against Manchester City at 10.30 so that's the general plan and then in the aftermath of that we have the upstairs reserved again in the interior of Johnny's and we can go back and continue on for hopefully our celebrations of another five, six, seven, maybe even 10 goal victory over Manchester City this year. Yeah, you never know. I mean, even United had some chances against City, so it doesn't bode well for them.

1:38:46Paul Williams:I will tell you that we will also be doing an instant reaction for patrons that day. And if possible, Paul and I might try to find an area where some people can cheer in the background as we do it and watch that live. So you can watch us record that live and then we'll have that out right away, presuming all the technological capabilities are there for us to get it done. But it's going to be, I think, a heck of a fun weekend. And, you know, I just cannot emphasize how wonderful it is to get out of our home locations, go to other places, meet complete strangers and immediately feel bonded to them, immediately enjoy the time together and feel connected to something.

1:39:17Paul Williams:And that's the power of being an Arsenal supporter. So whether that's in Singapore, like it was this summer, LA and Philadelphia the summer before, whether it's Chicago, where we'll be in October or Kansas City, where I can't wait to be this coming weekend. You know, whether that is in London or in Lisbon or in hopefully Belgium this winter where I'm going to try to be. It never gets old meeting people who love Arsenal and you immediately feel like you've known each other a lifetime because of that support. So, boys, I'm looking forward to spending time with you. I'm looking forward to spending time in Kansas City with everybody who's going to be there.

1:39:49Paul Williams:And just thank you for what you've done to help organize it, to help make it a success. I know it's going to be a great weekend and I look forward to having it be the first of many good events in Kansas City. So I really appreciate you telling us about it. thank you so much Elliot and a special thank you to Tim Stillman who from the moment I went over to England and London for the first time in 2013 has been just an incredible human being and one of the nicest resources I've ever had from an Arsenal perspective so cheers to Arsenal Vision and to you and to Tim Clive Paul everyone we're really thankful to have everybody here and it's a big deal for Kansas City and we're thankful to be moving forward with it and to have an incredible weekend hopefully the rain holds off and we'll just have an incredible time have an extra beer won't even notice and i have to say i've heard mixed things about tim but we'll take your uh your advice on that one okay enough nonsense uh there'll be a friday night clive episode coming for you tomorrow if you'd like to join us for that and just in time for me to hop on the plane and head to kansas city where we hope to see you thanks to boys thanks to everybody listening uh we look forward to hoping hopefully seeing you in person but if not at least seeing you in these fine digital spaces we love you and we will of course talk to you after our still 10 Did you know?