“Business Starts And Ends With Credibility” - The Apprentice’s Tim Campbell Gives His Candid Advice!

0:00I got investment from some very big corporate brands. The biggest one we got was Bank of America, gave us half a million pounds. It was an amazing thing. What's that moment like? I cried. It was because everybody told me not to do it. Well, hello there. I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. Thank you for being straightforward. And coming up on this week's take, something for everyone. We have reviews of the new live action Masters of the Universe. Scary Movie 6, or as it is also known, Scary Movie, and Savage House with our very special guest, who is the irrepressible and irreplaceable Richard E.

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1:47Welcome back to The Businessmen with me, Ben Shepard. And yes, it is just me again today. Joel is still off being a very dedicated new dad to his little baby Dutch. But the mission rolls on. We are knee deep in building our very own men's skincare brand. And trust me, there is plenty to crack on with. We've already had some brilliant guests join us sharing their wins, their wobbles and the lessons they've learned in business and in life. If you've missed any of those chats, do go back and have a listen wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're there, hit subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next.

2:16You can also watch the full episodes over on YouTube, so make sure you subscribe there too. Today's guest is someone who knows a thing or two about building a career with purpose. Tim Campbell became the very first winner of The Apprentice way back in 2005 before stepping into a major role at Amstrad as project director in the health and beauty division. Since then, he's carved out an impressive path as an entrepreneur, mentor, and champion for social mobility, co-founding the Bright Ideas Trust in 2007 and earning an MBE in 2012 for his work supporting young people into business. He's now returned to The Apprentice as one of Lord Sugar's trusted aides and continues to share his insight through his work, speaking and his podcast, Reworking.

2:59An incredible career and lots for us to learn. Let's get stuck in. Our body is slowly deteriorating, but not your skin, Tim. Your skin looks amazing, brother. I need some help. Well, you've come to the right place. All right. Now that's why I'm here. We will get on to Joel and my foreskin shortly because I know you're keen. But Tim, I want to start at the beginning because, of course, we all know you for what you've managed to achieve in the world of business. But what was life like for you growing up and how did that experience shape you and drive you to become the person you are today? Well, I suppose it's similar for lots of us.

3:33We've got an Oranges story, which is in the big scope of things. I've seen lots of things around the world, so I don't want to get any violins out. But the reality is that it wasn't easy for us. I grew up in a single parent household by a very strong Jamaican disciplinary mother who was determined that we were never going to be statistics because her sacrifices of coming into this country via the Windrush generation, wanting to make a better life for herself. She passed that responsibility down to her children that the sacrifices she'd made shouldn't be wasted on what we did. So that manifested itself in making sure that we went to church.

4:07So church was a big thing in our household. Values was an important thing. So having respect for your name and what our family name meant to us and ultimately not taking for granted the opportunities of free education in this country. She didn't get the opportunity to go to school. Amazingly clever woman who sits now on beaches and collects rent. Right. So she's she's very successful, but she didn't get the chance to go to school. So she was adamant her children were going to do the most out of the free education that we had. So coming into a home with a B was like, where's the A? Right. She was very early, was like, don't waste time, get the best that you possibly can.

4:45And now when I look on the things I'm doing today, I see lots of that work ethic, lots of that drive came from her and her discipline, her focus and steadfastness in what she believed was the way to help us get up the social mobility ladder. She never talked about it in those terms, but she was very clear that she wanted to leave us in a better position than she had. And I love her dearly for it. you're a dad now of course and very successful and we look back and I mean I certainly have done this on a number of occasions and kind of look back and think I get it now I get what my mum and dad were trying to do I'm not sure I got it when I was a teenager I'm not sure I made it that easy for myself or certainly for them yeah well I don't know if I still do get it the thing is because I look at my mum who was a single parent bringing up three children all by herself and I'm rubbish as a parent if that's the best because I come home sometimes and I'm tired.

5:39I don't know how to answer certain questions. And I second guess am I doing the right thing, particularly if I've got a boy and a girl. And I know for me as a male figure in my household, I want to be a good role model for the first ever male that my daughter will love, setting her up for what she goes out and experiences. And also the first ever male role model in my son's life and how I treat my wife and the females in my, in terms of showing him how I want things to do. So I feel a lot of pressure actually as a parent in terms of where we are today. And you can read infinite amount of books.

6:11You can watch other examples, but you never get it right, I don't think. I think you're always constantly learning. I do anyway. I take away the small wins and I think, thank goodness I didn't mess that one up. Thank goodness I didn't. And then the ones I do mess up, I have to relearn how it goes. A great example. I always had this thing where I'd be sitting on the rocking chair on the patio waiting for my daughter's boyfriend to come home, right? Because I'm that kind of dad. It's like, listen, cross my path. You have to be the right. What's your intention? Yes. Right. And I think lots of fathers will understand that.

6:41But for me, I had a conversation with my daughter when she was about 17, 18. And what I realised is that I was scaring her away. I was scaring her away from telling me the most important things, the deepest things to her, because she's worried that the instant reaction for me was to be the aggressive one and blah, blah. And it took me a huge amount of time to sit down and have really detailed conversations with her to say, actually, what do you need? What do you want in that situation? not what I perceived the masculine version of a father was going to be. I had to really humble myself and then open myself up and say, what do you need?

7:13Because what I found is that my wife was going to be the first person that she would get the information to rather than me. And okay, sometimes that's important in terms of going through a cycle, doing other bits. But I wanted to be involved in that, right? Because I think if you remember, the connections when your child is conceived is quite secondary. You feel the bumps, but you don't really have the connection. and in the first couple of months you're the great assistant you bring all the stuff and you have that connection and I think now as my daughter's older I really value the fact that I've got rid of that immature view of what a father should be and I have such a wonderful deep relationship and conversation with her which is one of the wins but I know I'm inevitably going to make a mistake down the line but c 'est la vie how old is she now?

7:58she's 24 now and how are you when suitors come round? well there is a suitor already in place. She's had a suitor for a couple of years. Okay, so... So I'm getting used to it. It's still hard. It's still hard. I'm not going to say I've cracked here. No. But I think it's the reality that I want her to be happy. Yeah, I mean, being a parent, I know being a father, being a husband and having a family and being a parent is your number one job. I know how seriously you take that and you talk about it so beautifully with your kids that are growing up now and your wife. But professionally and business-wise, your early career, what do you think were the key moments that have influenced you and pushed you particularly to entrepreneurship, which is, you know, where you found such an amazing bit of traction?

8:44Great question. I think the biggest thing for me was realising there was no clear, linear progress from effort and working for somebody else. Because I worked for the public sector. My first job out of university was working for the public sector. My nickname was electricity, not because I had a personality like so, but I took the easiest route to get to anywhere, right? I was a lazy kid. I was a lazy kid, right? For all the engineers, you'll understand that. But it was the automatic transition. I paid for my way to go to university. I was working part-time for the public sector and then eventually went on to the graduate recruitment program.

9:21And I had this, the belief that if you worked really hard, were diligent, kept your head down, turned up on time, the magic work fairy would come out of the EFA, I'll pick you up and put you in positions of promotion. And you learn very quickly that the workplace is quite transactional. And for somebody who was filled with just enthusiasm and not understanding the power dynamics within corporate structures, it was quite a bit of a shock to realise that you didn't just get promoted, get promoted by being a nice guy. It was actually, there was other unwritten rules of how you interacted in the workplace that were necessary for you to progress.

9:58And once I understood that a bit better, What were those rules, Tim? I think the way that it is politely talked about is that you have to be, you have to understand how networking works, right? And it's this dark art of being connected to the right people. And the way I like to think about it is, and I tell people, is like, understand what your boss's boss's problems are and make sure you're in line to solve those, right? Because if you're not aware of the bigger structure around your immediate deliverables in an organisation, you'll always be kept at one particular level. And once I understood the power of personal brand, the power of connecting to the right individuals and the power dynamics within an organization, it made it much easier to understand the transactional nature of what we were doing.

10:42So I knew I had to deliver, say, a project in a couple of weeks. Fine. But I also then realized if I did a bit more on this project that that manager was responsible for, his boss would recognize me and then say, oh, who's that? Who's responsible for that? And then you get known. So it's about how do you put yourself in a position through good stuff and being recognised by other people. Once I understood that. Is it playing the game a bit more? Work is a game. And that's the thing. And I think people think that's a dirty thing. But once you know it's a game, it's like any game. Chess, Scrabble.

11:16Once you understand the rules, you can play the game better. But if you go in blind and you don't understand the rules and you put the word on the wrong double score or you do the wrong move in chess, you'll be penalised. So I think what I'm now very, very passionate about is educating people on those rules. Because if everyone knows the rules, you've got a better chance of creating the meritocracy I think we want. It's a strategy, isn't it? It is. A strategy game. So what was the strategy when you decided you were going to go on to the TV and do The Apprentice? I would love to say there was a strategy.

11:49The strategy was this. I was in a one bedroom flat in East London with a two year old child. and I had little to lose. So there wasn't really a strategy. It was the opportunity. My wife sent me the opportunity for The Apprentice. I saw it. I'd sent it out to lots of people I'd recruited because I was the graduate recruitment manager at this company by them. And I said, they'll be brilliant for it. None of them did it. The day before the application form was due in, filled it out and I applied and the rest is history, as they say. So there wasn't a strategy, but what there was, was an understanding I wanted something more and I was willing to sacrifice what I had in order to be able to get it.

12:25None of us really knew what The Apprentice was at the time as well. It was the first series of it. Of course, it's a well-trodden path now. Yeah, it's created some interesting characters, hasn't it? Hasn't it, Jax? Look at the US. But anyway, we'll move to the audience. But of course, there was that, you know, that brilliant naivety about that moment that we all talk about the first reality TV series of lots of different shows. And it was gripping for that reason, because we hadn't seen anything like it. But you had to win it to get that money. Unknowingly, I've always had a metrics of things that I've applied to any decision I was going to make.

12:57I was quite methodical about the things I was going to do. So in that moment, I said, is it going to make me more money? Potential tick. Is it something that is going to make my mum happy? Potential tick. Is it something that's going to cause me to get divorced? No, that's fine. I can do that. Another tick. And I go through these things. Can I just say, I love the fact your mum's happy if you're above whether you get divorced. Just saying that right now. Every boy knows you've got to make your mum's happy, right? My wife will definitely understand this. But the fact is, I think I know for me, I've always had a certain list of things that I've had to tick off before I make any one decision.

13:30I'm not, although it might seem quite rash, there is a logic behind it in terms of the things I've gone and done. And I try to get as much data as I can in decisions. And it's not like I'm a nerd, but I am driven by data in those things. And in that data, that data point, six figures was lucrative enough to think, why not? Big news. I mean, it's slightly different the way it works now, but back then it was the money, right? 100%. It was an incredible... It's still the same. So the concept of the show hasn't really changed much. At the heart of it, it's our UK version of the American dream. Everyone talks about in the US, you can start anything, you can be from anywhere and get to the top, right?

14:07But I think we have that here and we don't talk about that enough here. It's like all of us have started from very different places and look where we are now. If we'd been those, snotty-nosed kids at kindergarten, we could never imagine we'd be doing amazing things that we get to do. And I'm so grateful for those opportunities. I grew up in a time I was ecstatically happy to get my national insurance number. Ecstatically happy. I still remember it now. It's one of the only numbers. JP, I won't say the rest because they might take it, but I remember it specifically. That envelope came through and that was my passport to go and earn some money.

14:36And I was really proud that once I had that permission, I could go and do anything. I had dreams. I had beliefs. And I think what we see, what I see now with lots of young people, they don't have as many dreams. They're quite limited in terms of what those dreams are, because unless it's a social media pathway or a crypto pathway or some quick hack to get to something, they don't believe anything for them. And I think what I want our leaders to do, our role models to do much more, is reignite that dream in people where we had no clue about what we were going to do, but we tried it anyway. And you know what?

15:09We gave it 100 % and good things happened as a result. And I think if we can spread a bit more of that, where we can get people to believe that there's a good social contract in this country, The Apprentice for me is that's what it still does.

15:26Well, hello there. I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. Thank you for being straightforward. And coming up on this week's take, something for everyone. We have reviews of the new live action Masters of the Universe, Scary Movie 6, or as it is also known, Scary Movie, and Savage House with our very special guest. Who is the irrepressible and irreplaceable Richard E. Grant. Yes, Richard Emergency Grant is our special guest talking Savage House. Don't miss a single second.

15:59What do you think, when you look back at the Tim Campbell that went on to The Apprentice all those years ago? who had that dream and the ambition and the idea that there's six figures at the end of this, what do you think he would say to Tim Campbell who's sitting here now? Because often we go the other way. What would you say to him? I wonder what he would say and make of where he's gone. I think he would say the younger Tim would have looked around and would have been more hopeful for a mentor to step in. Because several points in my journey, I think I've always had positive people who have been there to say, this is the turn you should take or this is the direction you should move to and without those wise words or wise people in my life i i know i wouldn't be where i am now and it started from teachers at school mr foley my young irish teacher amazing man now runs a college in ireland what did he teach you religious studies religious studies and he taught us actually how to think yeah okay he taught us like critical thinking i really respect him for what he did then so So teachers love teachers because the inspirational impact that they can have on people that they'll never really know about.

17:08Now why I sit on a board of a school now, because I think it's really important. My first ever manager who taught me how to navigate work environments and not get frustrated or wait for your boss to die or retire in order to get opportunities, because that's what most people do. You wait humbly, but he said, no, make it transactional. My first investor who taught me about how to put a proposition together to attract people, Tom Alube, an amazing man, now head of the King's Trust, one of the most inspirational people in my life. And he taught me the transactional nature of metrics and writing things down and making decisions based on fact.

17:47Love him for that. So I've always had people who have been better than me. and i'm i'm i'm now very okay with being the dumbest in the room i love the idea of what your religious study teacher taught you because he taught you to be curious to understand how i talk to my boys all the time and my god children and my friends kids it's like you know being interesting is one thing being interested is so much more powerful so true it's you know if you are somebody that is capable of asking questions and being intrigued by what somebody does and to find out who they are, you will never be lonely and you will always be attractive to other people.

18:24100%. What about Lord Sugar then? Yes. Because, I mean, he's quite an imposing figure. I mean, he's a super successful guy and he ended up being your boss when you joined Amstrad. What was that transition from winning the show to getting that role and being in that role for... Two years. Two years. Two years. You know, and then deciding to walk away. So I don't, I've never seen Lord Chagrezis now, Sir Alan as he was when I first met him, as intimidating. And it's got nothing to do with sports or dry football club. It was more so when you have a Jamaican parent, you're not scared of anybody. So it's like perspective for one.

19:04So one, the most important person in terms of decision making over my life was my mum. So that was fine. But getting past that, it was more, I liked the style of person he was. It worked for me. So it's like boxing matches, like styles make fights. And it's the same way when you work with people, whether it's in a personal relationship or a professional one. And for me, in that scenario, I found the perfect person for me. He was unambiguous. He was direct. He was fair. He was successful. He was from East London. He had all the parameters, all the requirements that I would respect immediately in somebody.

19:37because if somebody is wishy-washy, if somebody hasn't done it before, I'm not going to respect you. But immediately I respected this man. So whatever he was going to ask me to do, I was going to do 100%. And I knew if I worked with this man, I would be better as a result of it. I just knew, innately I knew. My mum, she bought me a Amstrad 464 computer with a red and funny colour butters and typing in code to play games forever. And then I had the opportunity to work for this person who had given me my first computer. I was like, I'm on this. And he was going to give me six figures to do it. 100%, let's do this.

20:10So working for him wasn't about fear. It was more so about letting him down. I didn't want to let him down. Similar to my mum, right? So I had that kind of respect. And in working for him, what you realised is that this man is a genius. He actually is a genius. He can spot holes in anything and then find solutions to fix those. And he surrounded himself with brilliant engineers, brilliant marketers, brilliant salespeople who built up his business. So what I learned from him directly in what I call my mini MBA working for him, right, is surround yourself with experts, people who are brilliant. Know your niches, understand a particular, his thing was electronics.

20:46He understood it inside out. He knew what a transistor is. He knew what an LED. He knows everything about it. And then also understand your numbers. Like never forget your numbers. This man was a number genius. Like his calculations in his head were, and I was just sitting all watching me in board meetings. It's like, how do you do that? But what it inspired me to do was do exactly the same thing. I wanted to emulate it. So this is why I truly believe in the power of role models. But for me, they have to match that criteria of things that I can respect. So the decision then to leave, was that a complicated one?

21:20Or was it like, I've got to this point and actually now my ambition is beyond this. My ambition is to do my own thing. It was exactly that. I think the concept of the show is in the name. It's you're an apprentice. You go and work for somebody. you get qualified and you go off and do your own stuff. So I got to the end of my first year tenure and it was only a one year contract. And he said, do you want to stay on? I said, a hundred percent. And that for me was people pleasing Tim being happy. So it's the same Tim who was coming home with his A-levels for his mum and then getting a big reward.

21:49It was the same in terms of engagement. So I've always been that mummy's boy, I wanted to please everybody, right? So getting the sense of achievement that he wanted me to stay on was a massive confidence boost to me. So I did another year. And at the end of that year, we came to a natural transition. He's like, Tim, what do you want to do next? I was like, I want to do what I've done for you, for myself. And he was like, really? I said, yeah. So I gave him the proposition of what I was going to do. And he said, OK, I'm going to support you. So his whole agenda around The Apprentice, back in the days when Gordon Brown was chancellor, was to spread entrepreneurship throughout the UK.

22:21That was his big passion. And The Apprentice was a platform that he was going to utilise to be able to do that. So him hearing me say that was a big buzz for him. And he offered me a percentage for the company. I said, no, I want to do it 100 % myself. He said, okay, so I'll guide you in different directions. And then I realised how hard business actually was. Listen, it was tough. My very first company fell catastrophic. What was your first one? It was another, it was a skincare business. It was a skincare business. What was it? What was it called? How did you do it? It was Campbell Esquire. So I arrogantly named it after myself.

22:52Nice, Campbell Esquire. No, it was stupid. It was stupid. But you learn lessons. Then I also, I had a manufacturer in Watford who put all the formulations together. Brilliant concept. We had jars that we were bringing in, importing over from Turkey. We had moulds of all the stuff made in China. The whole production line was all sorted. And then I realised margins that were going to be taken by big supermarkets and also competitors and how much money they spend on advertising. And once I understood the numbers, it became very clear that the business wasn't going to work. Because what I'd done working for Lord Sugar, I'd saved up all my money.

23:27because I didn't believe that this was possible. Like the amount of money I had was like, oh my gosh. But it scared me. I didn't want to waste it. So I saved all this money and then I invested most of it into this business. And what you really realise very quickly is that marketing and margins to supermarkets are big parts of your budget. And it failed within six months. We ran out of money. And I realised two things. I was too arrogant because I'd thought I could do it all by myself. And the big misconception about business is that you have to do it by yourself. So I love that you and Joel have done a partnership because it's so important to be able to share, not just skills, but a safe space to say, what the hell are we doing here?