“When You Don’t Come From Money, All You Think About Is Money” - Susie Ma On Making Millions HER Way

0:00This industry that we're in, I call it community commerce. It's a modern day version of like the old Tupperwares and Avons. But those kind of businesses allowed women to run their own business before they were allowed to vote. You know, how empowering is that? Welcome back to The Businessmen. I'm Ben Shepard. And as Joel is currently deep in negotiations with a newborn and a toddler, I'll be steering the businessmanship today. Meanwhile, our own adventure with Foreskin is full steam ahead. We're building the brand one step at a time and getting a crash course in what it really takes to bring a business to life.

0:34Some weeks we're feeling like seasoned entrepreneurs. Other weeks we're Googling things we probably should already know. But we're having a lot of fun along the way. And if you're enjoying the journey, make sure you follow the podcast wherever you listen. And if you'd like to see our guests in action, you can do that by watching us on YouTube. Every episode is in full. Now, today I'm joined by someone very special indeed. The incredible Susie Marr. founder of one of the UK's fastest growing beauty brands, Tropic Skincare. After she started her business at just 15 years old, selling natural skincare products at local markets, and since being named in the Sunday Times 40 Under 40 in 2024, Susie has built a business with purpose.

1:15It's a subject very close to her heart. This is an extraordinary conversation that I absolutely loved. Let's get into it. Here's Susie Marr.

1:25Susie, thank you so much for joining me in the Businessmen Studio. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real treat. It's a real, real treat to have you here. I can't wait to get into all things Tropic. I can't wait to get into all things you. It feels like you have been on this journey into business from a very early age. Yes, indeed. Yeah, very, very long time. I actually started out in business with my parents at the age of six. At the age of six? So yeah, helping them and their market stalls and everything. What sort of things were you selling on the market store? What sort of things were you doing?

1:54So my parents used to be actually street vendors in Sydney. So my dad emigrated over to Australia from China when I was very young. And he was a street vendor. He was a mechanic, like a mechanical engineer in China. But in Australia, because he couldn't speak the language, he could only work at markets and on streets selling various knickknacks, like little toys, glow sticks over New Year's, fireworks, you know, that kind of thing. I might well have been down there and seen him. Was it around, what sort of year was it? Early 90s? Oh, yes, it would have been early 90s. I was travelling in the early 90s.

2:28Yeah, yeah, yeah. But all that sort of, I was there over New Year. Maybe we sold to you. Did you buy a glow stick? I loved the glow sticks early 90s. Crikey, I was on my year off. I lived for glow sticks. Did you? Glow sticks were all the rage back then. Oh, my gosh. In Sydney? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, my God. I found me in the North Shore. We'll be there every New Year's. You know, you think that you wouldn't sell much, But sometimes we make, you know,$10 ,000 in one night. In a night. Selling glow sticks. Amazing. We believe that. Glow sticks, light up things. Everyone wanted to, you know, shine over New Year's.

2:56Some sort of celebration. So you got that sense that they were working really hard, but very much in the trade, very much in selling as well. Yes, exactly. So I kind of watched my parents being entrepreneurs growing up and helped them out where I could. And then you ended up selling your own stuff in a market stall, right? Yes. When you were around 15, was it a grandmother's body scrub? It was indeed. Yes, exactly right. Yeah. When I was 15, my mother and I, so when I was 13, my mother and I left Australia to move to the UK, very quickly found that we were struggling to make ends meet. And I just decided that I needed to earn some cash to help my mom pay the bills.

3:31And the only thing that made sense to me back then was this recipe that my grandmother used to make, which was this beautiful body scrub with sea salts and jojoba oils, macadamia oils, and it smelled of lemon myrtle and eucalyptus essential oils. And it just made your skin feel so soft. I mean, she used to get me to use it to help itch mosquito bites, but also help to ward off the mozzies in Australia. Because we lived, by that point, we were living in Cairns. Yes. In tropical North Queensland, there were loads of mosquitoes. Of course. And so I thought, why not recreate this beautiful product that I love, that reminds me of home in Oz, and let's see if people want it.

4:05And that's how we began. Isn't it amazing? Because obviously you run a massive skincare business now and you understand there's all sorts of rules and regulations about giving people things to put on their skin. Yes. At 15, you wouldn't have been worried about that. Nope. I was thinking this is just the same as making some cake and offering it to the members of the public, you know. I had not considered that. I mean, my scrubs were made in jam jars, my mum's kitchen at home, labels stuck on with Pritt stick. It was very, very basic. Very homemade, but I imagine really incredibly empowering as well.

4:36Yeah, yeah. I mean, the first day that I started selling, I took home at£980 in cash Wow Which was unbelievable Well and your mum struggling to pay the bills And suddenly you can walk through the door with that sort of cash It must have been extraordinary Yeah it was an amazing feeling And I think it was at the end of that first day that I realised We had a business and we could stay in the UK And we could make a living here How did that experience And also growing up with your dad who was vending back in Sydney in Australia how has that shaped who you are today do you think? I think it's just showing me that no matter what life throws at you there's always a way you can always start from scratch with a product in a jam jar and sell it at a market store it's given me a real sense of resilience and also independence you know I think often when people start businesses nowadays they think they have to get loads of funding they have to raise loads of money they have to get all this help and all these people and all these things set up in order to start a business.

5:34But actually watching my parents and what they went through and how I first started kind of taught me that you can start with basically nothing. You can be incredibly scrappy, have literally nothing. I started with 200 pounds. That was what, you know, I borrowed that from my mum to start my business. And you can build something big from it. It might take longer, but actually sometimes you've got to do things slowly to really learn how business works to make sure you're in profit and be scrappy. You've taken some big opportunities along the way as well, though, of course, 2011 into The Apprentice.

6:04I did, yeah. What made you want to do something like that? Do you remember what series it was? I think it was season eight. So there'd been a few by then. There had been a few, but the year that I applied was the first year they changed the process from a£100 ,000 job to a quarter of a million pound investment, 50 % share of your business to Alan Sugar. So at that point, I had just graduated from university. I was 21. I was working at Citigroup as an investment banker. I was trading FX and it was the job that I always wanted. It was a job that I started my business for. When I started my business, I was thinking I want to be really wealthy.

6:43When you don't come from money, all you think about is money. So I remember thinking I need to get into investment banking because I know that's where the big bucks are. So my degree, everything that I did was to lead up to that job and I got that job. And I remember sitting in that job and thinking, I hate what I'm doing. I absolutely hate what I'm doing. Why am I doing this? Because actually, by that point, I'd made enough money to buy my mom a house. I bought myself an investment property. We were financially good. Really early, really quickly. Yeah. And so I didn't need to do this job that I hated to earn this amazing amount of money.

7:16I remember telling one of my friends about it. Like, I don't, you know, I'm not doing Tropic anymore, which I loved. I'm doing this job, which I thought was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And I'm, you know, two months in and I hate it and I don't know what to do. And my friend posted on my Facebook group with a link to apply for The Apprentice. And she said, look, they've just changed the process. You might get an investment from Alan Sugar. He's famous. He can help you scale your business. Why don't you apply? And being 21 and just being really open to any opportunity, I just thought, okay, I'll apply.

7:46I'd actually never watched The Apprentice. I was going to say, so you didn't see the legacy of of the show, which has had some brilliant, wonderful successes, but also quite a lot of characters. A lot of characters. I actually genuinely had, I knew about the process of The Apprentice. I knew what it was about, but I never sat through an episode or a season. And I obviously, I hadn't known what it was going to be like applying for a show where you would, you know, where this format had completely changed. And so I thought, do you know what, what's the worst that can happen? I'll submit an application and just, and just go for it.

8:18And it was like a quick application online. And then, yeah, long story short, I think there were 78 ,000 candidates that applied internationally because that was the first time they changed the process and it attracted a lot of attention. It wasn't interested in the investment rather than the job. Exactly, exactly. And it was more money. It was 250 rather than 100K, right? And so, yeah, and then long story short, I got on the show and the rest is history. I mean, so you didn't quite win. So in theory, you didn't get the winning investment. No. But you did get the investment though. Lord Sugar did invest in you.

8:48I did. So I was in the final. I was fired in the final. I got that finger. I felt like my world had collapsed around me because I was only 21. Yeah, because, you know, when you're on the show, it is a studio set, right? So as you're fired, you go through this room, you open this door, you walk out this door, but you're actually just walking into a dead end. It's just a studio set. You're just in this closet, like contemplating live, like I'm just being fired on national television. but actually what was interesting was that and you'll know about this Ben you know people always say that sometimes when you get knocked back that's the bit like that's the best thing that could ever happen to you because after I left the show I thought you know what I love this business I've just spent six weeks filming for The Apprentice starting up a new business every few days and this is what I want to do I don't want to go back to my banking role I want to run my own business, do my own thing.

9:43So I restarted my business. I invested all the money that I had saved up from my banking job into restarting Tropic, did some shows, made a ton of money. So by the time the show aired on TV and Alan Sugar looked me up or his team looked me up, he saw that Tropic was making a sizable amount of money. And then he got in contact with me. He asked for his wife to try the products, which she did and she loved them. And then, yeah, He asked how much money I wanted for half of my business and having no idea how to value your business back then. And this is my advice to anyone who's looking or seeking for investment is know how much you're worth, know how much your business is worth.

10:21I ended up giving away half my business for£200 ,000, which was outrageous. When you look back at it now, how much, how seriously undervalued was that? Oh, massively. I mean, we were turning over hundreds of thousands. And I think every year we were probably making about 70 to 100 ,000 pounds in profit. Right. And so to value the business at like 4X is crazy. It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. And so I wish I sought some advice, but it was a very quick conversation. And you know what? Like amazing things came out on the back of it. So I can't complain. Did you ever have words with it? We'll cut to when you ended up buying it back off him.

11:03But did you ever have words at any point and go, you knew you were getting an incredible deal at that point. Your naivety led to him getting 50 % of this already profitable company for an absolute song. Yeah. I never had that conversation. Did you not? But I think he knew. Yeah, of course he did. I think he knew what he was getting into. And you know what? When I asked for the 200K, it was done so quickly that I was like, oh, fantastic. I was like, wow, this is great. This is really key. and I'm getting a great deal here. But you know, everything happens for a reason. You live and learn. I always say to founders now, like, you know, if you're raising money, if you're giving away equity, make sure you give it away at the right valuation because, you know, it always comes back.

11:42Yeah, the experience of that, the advice you get on that is absolutely crucial, isn't it? Yeah. So what was that moment like when you got the business to a point where you could buy back his shares? Oh, an incredible moment. That actually happened back in 23. and we had a payback scheme because I didn't want to borrow money and be in debt. I hate being in debt. I think it's childhood trauma, seeing my parents in debt and growing up with that. So we had this payment plan where I'd pay him X amount of money every six months out of the profits of the business. And I suppose - So it was always the plan to get that back at some point.

12:18I think eventually always, you know, Lord Sugar was, I mean, he's 75 now. I'm 37. He's more than double my age. And so he has very different ambitions and very different ideas of where he would want the business to go, you know, because simply we're at very different stages of our lives. And also he has his fingers in so many parts. He's invested in so many businesses. And so I think eventually for him, there always had to be some kind of exit. And I think for me, I just wanted to make sure that the exit was always to me and not to anyone else that I'd have to run a business with.

13:04What do you think, Susie, are some of the early decisions that you've made for your business that have shaped its success now? I think quite a few. For a start, we were going to go into retail and we were looking at various different places to go into retail with and learning about their credit terms. And, you know, a lot of them want to take all of your stock and not give you any money until they're sold or until two to three months later. That's very common. And that was just going to be such a strain on our cash. You know, when Lord Sugar invested, the 200 ,000, that was going to be it. And that's not a lot of money to run a business with.

13:48And if you're out of cash, you have no business. And so making sure that we We ran a business model that enabled us to keep our cash intact. Like that was a key decision that we made. So did that mean you stayed focusing on direct-to-consumer rather than going into retail? Direct-to-consumer. We started our community commerce model with our ambassadors where they would, you know, we would pay them commission and they would only buy the products after they've already sold them to customers. And so there was no credit term that we had to... Satisfy. Satisfy. and be strangled by. So that was one thing.

14:26The other decision that we made was actually to manufacture everything in-house. And that was a difficult decision and one that Lord Sugar and I used to disagree with because when I first started, everything was made in my mom's kitchen. And as we scaled, I just went from a small pot to a bigger pot, a small stove to a bigger stove and then bigger and bigger and bigger. And it definitely had challenges. manufacturing has this whole set of problems but i wanted to make sure that we continue manufacturing in-house because i wanted to maintain the very best quality and i also wanted to make sure that our recipes were secret and i wanted to make sure that our customers got the freshest products on their skin um and it also meant that because we're manufacturing everything ourselves we could be flexible so when we first started out if you went to a contract manufacturer, they have a minimum order quantity of a product that you'd, you know, and that has a skincare products have a shelf life, especially if you want to pump it full of really good quality ingredients and you don't want to be loading it full of preservatives.

15:26And so they'll say minimum order quantity would be like two tons of this product, which would be like 10 ,000 pieces or 10 ,000 units. And that sometimes is just too much when you're starting out. And again, you're tying up all your cash to one product that that manufacturer needs you to pay for. And you don't know if that's going to sell or not so we preferred to just manufacture in-house by ourselves and have a few more SKUs to test you know make a batch of 100 pieces see how that's doing if that's not working we've changed we alter the formulation and we and we move to the next one who was and so who was coming up with the ideas was that you and your team what did you have because that's that's the other thing though if you're going to create it yourselves you're going to have to whip up that recipe yourself as well.

16:10Yes. So, yes. So in the beginning, I trained myself in cosmetic science, had aromatherapy, went to a few different cosmetic formulation courses and started developing products myself and working with external freelance chemists as consultants. And then eventually we had, we built our own team. So now we have a huge, amazing team. Between them, they have almost 200 years of experience in formulations and scientific developments in beauty and skincare and we have our own lab and we develop everything in-house now but back then yeah I would come up with every single product and formulate it myself in our little lab.

16:45I mean you're still that little girl who's mixing a little pot somewhere and then taking it out to a stall to sell. I love it so much I love it. I see your eyes gleam when you talk about it what do you think Susie would be some of the the missteps or the setbacks along the way that maybe sort of, you know, shifted the path a little bit? I mean, so many mistakes that we had made in the beginning, you know, from hiring the wrong people. I think that's probably going to be the hardest thing about scaling any business is finding good people. And actually, sometimes you find the most amazing people in the most unlikely circumstances.

17:22You know, some of my best members of staff have no prior experience in anything that they do. So my MD Carlton he was um he was a performer he was singing dancing in the west end and I recruited him to do a part-time role manufacturing our products and doing customer service in between auditions and in between jobs that he had in the west end yeah and very quickly I realized that he just had you know you look for people with grit with determination with a creative flair um people who find a way to get things done. Because nothing is that hard. We're not doing rocket science here. You know, we're making and selling skincare products.

18:02And he started off at£7 an hour. And over the years, he's worked his way up through the business. And now he's my managing director. Amazing. From£7 an hour between auditions. And there's loads of people like him within the business that started off in the roles that they started off with no experience, simply because I couldn't afford anyone really good with loads of experience and then they prove themselves we've grown together with this scrappy mentality to make things happen um and i always go back to this um there's a lady called thea green who is the founder of nails inc and she gave me a piece of advice in my early days and she said my biggest thing in business is that i hire slow and fire fast if you know someone's not right in your gut you can give them a thousand chances they're not going to be right not to mean that they're not good but it could just be a cultural fit that might not be right for your business you can't teach a fish to climb a tree you know it might not be what's right for them either but when it comes to hiring you've got to take your time you know good people are worth waiting for and worth the extra interview time and one of the things that you you have built your business around is empowerment champions empowerment particularly for women yeah um i can see that in you can hear it in you why is that so important to you I I just love women you know I I grew up as an only child my mum was a single mother and she she raised me from you know with very very little my grandmother has been a huge inspiration to me on both sides actually and I just and I went to an all-girls school so I've been surrounded by this all these amazing women my whole life and I think you know to give you a little bit more of a background, my father was very violent domestically.

19:51And I think a lot of women in the UK and all over the world go through that domestic violence that is very much kept under wraps. You know, we keep it quiet because it's not something that you want to share. But for my mom, she was so strong and so determined that she moved us from Australia to the United Kingdom with basically no money. She could barely speak English, no qualifications in anything that she could actually really earn some good income from with just the hope and the thought that we needed to get out. We needed to start a new life. And I find that incredibly empowering. And I know that there's lots of women around today who need that level of support to get that financial independence, to take themselves out of a situation or even just to improve a situation that they're in.

20:42And if I can offer that to them and give them a platform for them to build a business that can help them with that financial independence, then that would just mean the world. Because I wish back then my mum had a business like Tropic to go into where she could, you know, for a very, very small starter kit price, where she could start up her own business and make some money out of it. Because this industry that we're in, I call it community commerce. It's a modern day version of like the old Tupperwares and Avons. But those kind of businesses allowed women to run their own business before they were allowed to vote.

21:16You know, how empowering is that? And so that's why I champion women. It's mainly for my mum and knowing what women go through silently and just wanting to support women wherever I can. She sounds extraordinary, your mum. Oh, she's an amazing woman. She absolutely is. And she's so humble. She'll never say I'm amazing. She just cracks on and is the most resilient, brave, kind, wonderful, giving woman you'll ever meet, but never asks for anything. I wonder how she feels when she looks at you and what you've achieved. I hope she feels proud. We just came back from a really big festival with our ambassadors and she just looks so happy.

22:01I bet. Yeah. She should be. Talking of ambassadors, at time of recording, it has just been announced, news just in, that Alison Hammond has been named as Tropic Skincare's first celebrity ambassador. Yes. The wonderful Ali Hammond, who's a good friend of mine, obviously. I absolutely adore. So I contacted Ali because I said I was interviewing you. Yeah. And I said, can you send me a little voice note I can share with Susie and everybody on the business minute? And she sent me this little voice note, which I think you will enjoy. Hey, Ben, how you doing? This is me, live from Paris. Thought I'd get away for a couple of days just before I do this morning on Friday.

22:43I love the fact that you're meeting Susie Ma. Oh, my gosh. She is an absolute inspiration. What she's built with Tropic is so much more than a skincare brand. she's created a community where people genuinely believe in themselves and each other and the actual the actual skincare do you know what i mean like it is incredible meeting the ambassadors at tropic fest and hearing their stories showed me just how many lives susie has actually touched you know their passion their confidence and their love for the brand is all because of the culture that Susie has kind of created. So listen, I am so proud to be the new face of Tropic and to be joining her on this incredible journey of discovery.

23:28So here's to inspiring more people like yourself, Ben. You're going to love her. You're going to absolutely love her. Oh, she's so sweet. She's smitten. And I think there is something that Ali gets clearly. You know, it's a little bit like what Joel and I are trying to create with Foreskin, but the idea that actually this isn't just about me and him. It's about creating a culture and a community. that informs how everybody feels about the way they look and what they're putting on their skin, but so much more about their life and their mental well-being. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I think especially for men, mental health is something that is just not spoken about.

24:03I think men, women tend to talk about their feelings, but men don't, right? And I think something like skincare, something like taking just two minutes of your day to wash your face, moisturize your skin. For a woman, it feels amazing. But for a man, once you get into it, you're going to love it. You're going to love it. So that's so good for your mental health. There are actually studies that show people who look after their skin, who take that time to massage a cream into their face, wash their face and feel the hydration in their skin afterwards. They genuinely feel happier. And so what you're doing isn't just creating a skincare line for men, but you're giving men a bit of a joyful mental health kick.

24:42A little boost. A little boost to their day, to the end of their day. Exactly. Start their morning off right. So look, Susie, let's talk a little bit about, because you've got a partner. Yes. How's his skincare routine? Not great. See, it's fascinating for me. So this is what trips him up. So he would normally do his skincare next to me. I give him all, and maybe I'm a bit excessive. I give him like, you know. Too many steps? Like an eight-step evening routine. No. Not going to go to 10 quite yet, but I try and get him to do like the double cleanse. I get him to do all the serums, the eye cream, the lip and everything.

25:14and when we first start doing it after a few days he's genuinely he looks in the mirror and he's like wow my skin looks amazing but then what happens is we go traveling or he goes away with his boys and i go away and then we're not doing our skincare routine in the evenings together anymore and he's like oh my gosh which serum did i use when and then he just gets overwhelmed and then that's it and then he just splashes his face with water and then he goes to bed then he's done he's like i put water on my face i'm done and i come home and i say to him i was like matt you've not done your skincare for a while.

25:45I can tell. So you can see it in the skin. I can tell. I can tell his skin looks more dull. I can tell. I can see the dryness. I can see that his wrinkles are more pronounced. And he will say, gosh, I look so tired. I'm like, actually, you're not sleeping any less than you were. You're just not doing your skincare. And you're letting the pollution that you're picking up throughout the day stay on your skin. You're not wearing SPF. And so your skin is, you know, drier than usual. It's got pigmentation. And he knows. he's like oh yeah I need to start that up again.