“Retinol Changes The Way Your Skin Behaves!” Beauty Journalist Reveals The Beauty Truths You NEED

0:00Oh, hello, yes, I am Simon Mayo. And hello, yes, I am Mark Kermode. The Odyssey is out in the UK on July the 17th. It's one of the most hotly anticipated releases of the year, and we spoke to the man behind this epic film, Sir Christopher Nolan. It's about stories within stories, flashbacks within flashbacks. If we're looking at Star Wars, you know Odysseus is Han Solo. He's not Luke Skywalker. He's not a simple hero. The cast of the film is fittingly epic and includes Matt Damon, of whom Sir Christopher is a huge fan. He certainly inspired in me a feeling of, yes, it's difficult, but it's supposed to be difficult.

0:35We're making the Odyssey. It's meant to be hard. Don't miss all this and more from Sir Christopher Nolan, only on The Take. He finally got her. Oh my God, he got her. For years, a deranged man in Wichita known as the poet stalked Ruth Finley. He sent her letters, gifts and poems. The Wichita police put everything they had into Ruth's case, but got nowhere. The poet was always two steps in front of us, and we just didn't know why. And the city was already living in fear under the watch of another monster who called himself BTK. And he also had a thing for poetry. Could we really have two different people?

1:17But no one could have guessed how this would end. That's one of those Hitchcock endings that we did not expect. From Sony Music Entertainment and Numetric Media, this is The Poet. I'm Rachel Brown. The Poet is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes all at once, ad-free. The retinol is the gold standard ingredient that will change the way your skin behaves, and it doesn't matter if you've got acne, or you're a man, or you're a woman, or what age you are. pretty much the retinol is the cheerleader of your skin.

1:54It's the one thing that regulates most of your skin's functions. Welcome back to The Bitterest Men. I'm Ben Shepard. Now, Joel Domit is very much enjoying being at home with his gorgeous newborn baby boy, Dutch. But don't worry, we're both still very much on the journey of building a men's skincare brand, brilliantly christened by all of you lovely lot, as Foreskin. If you're new and want to find out how it's all been unfolding, do hit subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. You can also, of course, catch up on YouTube. So head over there and subscribe as well. Along the way, we've been sitting down with some seriously interesting figures from the world of business, getting into the reality behind their successes and setbacks.

2:34And today, the conversation is no different. I'm joined by a great friend of mine, the brilliant Nadine Baggett, beauty journalist, broadcaster, one of the most trusted voices in the skincare world. With decades of experience in the industry, Nadine has built a loyal following through her honest, no-nonsense approach to beauty. From her early days in magazine journalism to becoming a leading digital creator and author, she's seen the beauty industry evolve firsthand and she really isn't afraid to call it out when needed. And boy, do I know that firsthand. Let's get into this chat with the wonderful Nadine Baggett.

3:09I am very, very excited to have Nadine Baggett in the studio. I finally got you here. I know. Thank you so much for being part of the business, Nadine. I understand. I was in the first one. That voice note I sent you. The very first one. When I started being incredibly rude and dismissive and then thought, I don't know Joel well enough. I better whip this around. You did start. Of course you can do it. But you started in your typical fashion, which is, you know, let's just be honest and straight talking, which has always been the way. And in fact, we just had a little conversation before we came in And you reminded me that even before any of the podcasts or anything was created, I sidled up to you and said...

3:48I think it was about a year ago, right? Yeah, it might even be more than that, Nadine. Might even be that, yeah. And you went, I'm going to do some skincare. We're going to do some skincare. And here we are, all this time later. So close to launch. So very close to launch now. Congratulations. Not least, you've got some products. I've been testing them. You've been testing. I thought you looked great. uh now then let's uh we just got nadine and i worked together on this morning can you just in case anybody hasn't heard your brilliant expertise when it comes to all things skincare can you talk a little bit about your journey who you are what you do so i've been a journalist since i left university i knew that i wanted to be a journalist and i knew at the time i wanted to work on very glamorous very glossy women's magazines very devil wears prada and actually when i got into magazines i was in features and news and i thought well this isn't as much fun as I thought it was going to be.

4:37And in those days, you had big open plan offices with sort of those sort of pinboards that weren't, I'm very tall, weren't quite head height. So I would look across and think what department is having more fun. And I thought fashion was a little bit cool and icy, but beauty, for me, I realised that not only was it fun, you got the chance to travel, which was a huge thing for a working class girl like me, and somebody else was paying the bills. But also, it was that perfect blend of art and science. And that to me was just everything I wanted to write about. So I moved into the beauty department and then 35 years later, I'm still creating content around it.

5:10Still there, 35 years later. Still loving it? Still loving it. I was in Paris yesterday for a brand that shall remain nameless, doing some brand consultancy for a product that's not going to launch till 2028. And I sometimes I can't believe I get paid to have that much fun. That must be really exciting. Know what's coming in two years time. Well, it's essentially like I would say to you in the early days, you know, I would recommend this or I would recommend that. I've got quite a unique perspective in that I'm quite, so my background is journalism. Then I became a content creator, became a television guest, host, presenter.

5:44Expert. In that time, expert, whatever you want to call it. I went back into newspapers after then moving into Instagram and YouTube, tested up my YouTube channel 10 years ago and all that sort of stuff. so I've got quite a unique perspective because people just speak to me the whole time about beauty like they literally slide into my dms and go I used to say back in the day somebody back in the early days I get a picture and it would be from a nameless faceless person I'd be like oh is this going to be something interesting now I never get those pictures I just get pixelated rashes things have changed solve this what's this can you help and I genuinely enjoy doing it yeah Yeah.

6:20Favourite part of the job, do you think, Nadine? Oh, this morning. Well, when you come on to our show. It's so much fun. Come on. It is. But specifically for you, Nadine will come on and talk us through the latest exciting skincare products, the things that we need for depending on what time of year it is. Your wealth of knowledge is just extraordinary. So you and I have a friend in common, a mutual friend in common, Joe Good, who obviously comes on and does fashion, who I also create content with. And I regularly do a phone-in late at night on the BBC for her and they never have to brief me and they just open the lines and I will answer anybody's questions.

7:00That's an extraordinary, I mean, you've been doing it for 35 years, but your wealth of information. It's a Rolodex, like an old school Rolodex. Yeah, exactly. Right. So let's start with the name and the logo. I loved it. You know, I loved it. I might've been one of the first people you ever told. When you first told me you were going to launch skincare, I thought, that's out of your wheelhouse, right? But then also the more I spoke to you about it, the more it made sense for you and Joel. And then when I was coming up with names, I'm just never that naughty. I was thinking association, word games, all that sort of stuff.

7:37Cause that's what I do for a living. I can do that for brand development and stuff like that. But when it came up for it, I just went, Oh my God, that's, I remember being really shocked. You might have obviously typical you, you might have told me in an ad break when I'm due to come back live. And I'm thinking Ben Shepard's Foreskin, Ben Shepard's Foreskin, can't get that out of my head. And then I walked away, came back to do the item and I just went, that's fucking genius. It's genius. It's so clever and so funny. And anybody who, and I can't, I can't believe it's never been used, which is how you always know it's a genius idea.

8:10it's that light bulb moment and then I also thought for anybody that's upset they're not your people they're not our people right I think that's a really interesting thing because it is disruptive and it is a bit puerile and funny and have they met you and Joel well no quite and I think that's a really interesting thing because I think there's a sort of a perception of of what we do on telly and we're very um professional and we do all those sorts of things we're very careful But actually, that part of who we are, that part of our humour, I think is really apparent in the name. But there was concern.

8:46Of course, there's going to be concern. So we gave the community three choices. Duo, because we are a duo, which ran it a close second, to be fair. Mug, which was a name that Joel really liked. And we do love the sort of irreverence of Mug because it's about face and all those things. But it's quite an ugly word, Mug, as well. I think there is something about that. And then there was Foreskin. And we all sat around the table and laughed about it and thought it's brilliant. No, we can't. Can we do it? Whatever. And actually, by letting our community that are following this journey choose, we sort of almost deflected blame.

9:20But we all wanted that to be the name. Now, we're going to talk about the products. So we're starting with moisturizer. We're starting with a cleanser. Yeah. Because I think we all understood that when we spoke to community, they were the products that most men engage with more regularly than any others. There are some that have - They're the two staples with a man's skincare routine, morning and night, right? And what are the key things do you think about a great cleanser and a great moisturizer? So a great cleanser should be pH balanced. It should be loaded with humectants, so lock water into the skin.

9:52So it cleanses without your skin feeling dry or tight. And ideally you want, I am a huge fan of gel-based cleansers. I use them in the shower every single morning. And even if I use them as a second cleanse after a balm cleanser, because I wear makeup and you don't, at night, I love a gel-based cleanser. And I think a really well-formulated one will always get a dermatology-approved stamp. So I get it. So I think I remember saying to you, make it pH balanced, load it with humectants so that it locks water into the skin. Make sure it cleanses everything away. So sweat, grime, SPF, whatever you want.

10:24And then at the end of the day, your skin doesn't feel dry or tight. Great. You also did that. You did all that, but you also made it smell really good. Oh, hold on. It smells really good. Did you hear that, Russell? Did you not notice that was the first thing Kat said, by the way? Yes, when she tested it as well. And even though I'm not somebody that thinks of skincare as being sensorial, so I'm not in it for the 12 steps and the ritual and all that sort of stuff. I'm in it for active ingredients that work. The first thought was this might actually be the nicest smelling cleanser I've ever used.

10:57And then my second question is why doesn't the moisturiser smell the same? so okay firstly let's can i just take a moment to enjoy that sit in that moment baguette approved so we're getting some really positives about the cleanser yeah maybe i should have finished with the cleanser because i feel like the moisturizer is a beautiful gel lightweight gel texture which is my favorite texture it's super lightweight my and i haven't used it consistently enough to notice any, but has got low level DHA. It has got low level DHA. Now we, what we ended up doing, so the DHA is the, um, it's dihydroxyacetone.

11:36It's the sugar that sends skin brown. It oxidizes on the surface of the skin because you've always been a lifelong, or probably the last 15 or 20 years via JJ, Justine Jenkins, your slow burn self-tanner because you spend your whole time in the studio and not seeing the sun and you want a bit of color so her thing is she needs to warm me up yeah and what i've and joel as well and he's been even more experimental with some of his um tinted moisturizers that he's used and he's created his own um i've seen the benefit of having some warmth to my my face because i have quite pale skin and you're inside a lot and it really helps her battle the lights in the studio so it's just much more flattering yeah unquestionably when we start the first iteration uh had five percent yeah dha and And we both loved it.

12:25It was... Because did you look like you'd been away to the Caribbean for a week, within a week? Really quickly felt healthy, felt great. But then also struggled a little bit because the amino acids mixed with amino acids in the hair and we started getting some discolouration of... So DHA works by oxidising the dead keratin in the skin and it'll do the same with your hair as well. It did. It did. So even though Joel and I love the warmth it gave our skin, particularly, what we don't want to do is we do not want men to use this product and then without realising go down the pub and their mates go oh what's going on with your hair hello ginge the luck because the last thing we want to do we want people to use the products and feel great using them but not to be embarrassed by at some point now i can wear that and actually think it's quite funny and enjoy that but we don't want that so what percentage dha is it now so we have come down we tried two percent which again we really liked and was warm enough but it was still doing it so we've dropped it down again so it's it's like 0.5 okay so it's really really small amount there is still an accumulative effect because if you use it morning and night it will come there and it will want and how long will it take you to build a color do you think uh our formulation willie wonka she thinks about three or four days that's not bad that's still pretty good not as long as we're using it morning and night yeah and and wash your hands wash your hands after this and don't do any of don't do grease is the word john travolta unless you want some nice ginger highlights maybe but actually the the percentage is now hopefully will work really nicely on the skin but won't affect the other parts as bad i think also you need to label it clearly you need to say we'll give a slow glow yes please wash your hands afterwards and try not to get in your head serving suggestions is something that i think is going to be really important understanding how much to use how many pumps what sort of dispensary it needs to be as well which i think we've got into the packaging in there because we put that to the team to the community i mean it should always be measured to an exact pump dose right okay so it should be two pumps for a cleanser two or three pumps for a moisturizer it's always the same it's sort of standard across the industry

14:41what what are the concerns do you think has it been humbling exceptionally yeah yeah has it been humiliating well along the way there has been moments of humiliation not least well particularly for joel he got his nipple pierced which i think he was quite humiliated by i was determined to get my followers to save you on that if they in any way saved you. That was it. I love your followers for that. My followers love you. You know that, don't you? You are the nation's sweetheart. They sleep under a collective Ben Shepard duvet at night. They really do, just like Lorraine. Well, they can sleep with my foreskin on their face now as well, which I'm sure they will engage with.

15:16I think, yeah, it has been really humbling because you realise it's a massive market that has tons and tons of different brands out there. It's majorly over-served. Yeah, totally. You know, Joel and I want to create a commercially viable business we want this to be a success we want to be able to share that with people and to see what the journey takes and it might not work nadine we might we might fail we might sort of stumble along the way because there's so many moments along the way that we're going to have to you know trying to find investment in it or trying to deal with retailers and all that sort of stuff so you're enjoying it and you're learning oh because you're so good at tv presenting sometimes it must be a bit like, oh, I've done this before.

15:56I need a new challenge. It's a bit like Tough Mudder, basically. It's the Tough Mudder of business, isn't it? It's definitely the Tough Mudder, the world's toughest mother. But I think there's something about my biggest fear, though. Gosh, this is shifting to therapy. I'm a good journalist. You are, aren't you? My biggest fear is complacency. It always has been. I'm absolutely terrified of getting complacent because I think as soon as complacency sits in, you start getting lazy. As soon as you start getting lazy, you start sort of taking things for granted and I would never ever ever take any opportunity I have been given for granted I understand the privileged position where I am the opportunity I've been given and I love it I do something I really really enjoy and I think that you know for skin as a brand and as a business doesn't just have to be about skincare do you know I mean there is you know potentially just in terms of who Joel and I are and where we're going with our life he's got two young boys i've got two older boys he's 10 years younger than me you know i think the community that we build we will be guided by them as well because we'll ask them the questions what else are you missing what else can we help no it's interesting as well also the name for skin even though i'm saying it with a straight face sort of carries so many more implications because you can then also talk about longevity yeah confidence the psychology of bad skin the psychology of good skin, how that deeply affects people on a personal basis.

17:17So it could be a brand that could be multi-hyphenate and multifunctional. Hopefully. But I, you know, I think for both Joel and I, the idea that we are creating something that potentially will help some people along the way is really exciting. And have fun doing it. And especially have fun. Especially have fun. It's an adventure. uh now i know that you've prepared something for me i have how much have you really learned about skincare so what i thought we'd do is we'd bust some myths right yeah okay you've got i made your team create a paddle i've got a paddle i get a tv moment right okay the table tennis paddles give me one okay so truth if you think it's an outstanding truth myth if you think it's a myth right okay okay and bearing in mind most science has nuance right okay i know so some of them can be myths and truths yeah absolutely right let's start with a new one okay do you need to drink more water to moisturize your skin to moisturize your skin i think that's a myth but i'm so relieved but can i tell you the amount of skincare experts that believe it's true they think you can moisturise your skin simply by drinking more water.

18:32And if they get dry skin, they go, I just need to have a Stanley cup of water. And so what does water do to your skin? So water is great for your body. Keeping your body hydrated is really important. But your skin is a barrier that is constantly leaking water. So the more you drink, it'll just come out that way. The only way to moisturise your skin is to put a moisturiser on it. Or if you're lucky, you have a sebum that is very efficient at moisturising your skin. And essentially what a moisturiser does, a clever moisturiser puts a little bit of moisture into the skin and then locks it in with a final sort of lightweight sort of emollient, which is essentially what your sebum does.

19:13So what a moisturiser is, is a better version of sebum. There you go. Yeah, I knew that. I love that you know that. I knew that. Is your skin alkalinic or is it acidic? So is your skin acidic? Is your skin acidic? Is your skin acidic? So I know that some of the stuff that we were talking about, salicylic acid that goes onto your skin. Glycolic acid? Yes. Hypochlorous acid? Hyaluronic acid? Hyaluronic acid. All of those acids, you wouldn't put an acid on an acid skin. So I would say is your skin acid true yeah your skin is acidic i would have said that because because all of those products have acids in so ph neutral is a seven yes right the reason that hard water is bad for your skin is because it's alkalinic we talked about that the other day when i was on this morning i was listening on this uh so yeah of course you were um so your skin is very slightly acidic.

20:13But very interestingly, the enzymes in your skin have the ability to rebalance your skin. So even if you're in a hard water area, after half an hour, your skin will come back to the perfect level of just mild acidity. And when you go stronger with an acid, say an exfoliating glycolic or salicylic, it will utilise that acid and then bring it back to the perfect acid. Your skin's incredibly clever, but a healthy skin is an acidic skin. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Is natural skincare better for you and better for the environment? Is natural skincare. So like. So if somebody said to you, oh, it's a plant, it's better for your skin.

20:51Would you believe that? No. Good on you. It's called the appeal to nature fallacy. And it's a very strange one in beauty. And it's similar in food, but it sort of makes sense in food because we've been talking about how many plants you should eat and things like that. But for some reason, there's an appeal to nature fallacy in skincare that if it's natural, it must be better for your skin. And all things that are natural are great for your skin. Poison ivy? Don't be ridiculous. Not great for you at all. And in fact, natural skincare products are not necessarily better for the environment as well.

21:22Is that right? Yes, because the land it takes to grow all of the active ingredients you need, say, for example, willow bark to make salicylic acid, we'll be better off actually being left as a natural field. And if you can take an ingredient, perfect case in point, there's an oil you can take that comes from corn. And if you can take that corn, feed it to a bacteria, and then get the bacteria in a lab to produce a smaller version of that hemisqualine oil, you do it in a lab, and then you can actually give the corn to the people that need it that can live off the land. Hemisqualine oil. Hemisqualine oil.

21:59squalene is a really really common oil used in skin and hair products and it's basically quite similar to sebum right and hemisqualene is cut in two it's half the size so it's better for the skin and better for the hair wow and there are labs in brazil that do it so rather than felling the brazilian rainforest they have one small area of corn that they grow and then they feed it to bacteria and then it becomes and that's what biofermenting skincare is and it's very clever that and it's very high tech and it's very scientific and it will save the environment splashing cold water on your face will close your pores splashing cold water on your face will close your pores um it's a myth your pores don't open and close no they don't uh your pores can become enlarged as you age when your collagen starts to get older and gets slightly less sort of you know flexible yeah uh but pores don't open and close they just don't they stay there there are certain things you can do to minimise the appearance of your pores.

22:58Salicylic acid is the perfect case in point because it's an acid that deep dives into oil in your pores and can clean them out. But the size of your pores is determined by your hormones and your genetics. What happens if your pores get filled with blackheads and things like that? Salicylic acid. Right. Yeah. So basically salicylic acid is an oil loving exfoliant that deep dives into pores and cleanses them out. Cleanses it out. Nice. Yeah, absolutely. Do you need SPF 365 days of the year? Oh, come on. We've done too many of these. What do you want your SPF to do? Protect you from the sun. Okay.

23:34For what reason though? Do you not want to age or do you not want to burn and get skin cancer? I don't want to burn and get skin cancer and I don't want to age either. Well, then in which case you do need it 365 days of the year. But most dermatologists, when you really pin them down, will actually say in the UK to protect you from sunburn and sun damage, which causes skin cancer, then you probably only need it between April and October. Purists will say if you don't want any sun to touch your skin because you do not want lines and wrinkles and pigmentation, then you do. But you see, that's what I mean about nuance.

24:13It's not necessarily one or the other. Yeah, exactly. Um, do you need a multi-step routine to have great skin? That is a myth. That is such a myth. How many steps do you actually think you need though? If you could have three steps in the morning and three steps at night, what would they be? Let's really put you on the spot. Um, gosh, that, that would be a lot for me anyway. Would it really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I've already got two steps. Yeah. What's your third step? Probably a serum for my eyes. No, no, no. What's your third step? What have I just asked you, Ben Shepard?

24:48What about SPF? Yeah, okay. So it has to be three to begin with. Well, unless you're SPF in the moisturiser. We haven't got SPF in your moisturiser. No, because we're not allowed to put it in the moisturiser yet, actually, Nadine, because it takes too long to develop. It will be there eventually. Okay. SPF in the moisturiser. No, SPF, trust me, buckle up when you start to... Oh, yeah, because it has to... Yeah, that's tough. It's hard work. Yeah, absolutely. To formulate an SPF. So technically, three steps should be an antioxidant serum to protect you from pollution, plus an SPF. add a push, but I would probably put a moisturizer under your SPF.

25:21Yes. That's it. That's your three steps. What are your three steps at night or two steps at night? Three steps at night would be a cleanser. Yeah. Because you've got to take it all off. A moisturizer again. And then nighttime SPF. What would be the third? A retinol. Oh, a retinol, of course. Yeah. Absolutely. The retinol is the gold standard ingredient that will change the way your skin behaves. And it doesn't matter if you've got acne or you're a man or you're a woman or what age you are, pretty much the retinol is the cheerleader of your skin. It's the one thing that regulates most of your skin's functions.

25:59Right. And it's essential. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you will have to do a retinol. Yeah, at some point. Yeah, you will, absolutely.

26:16uh the more you pay for a product the better it is you know this i've taught you well right have you thought about pricing we have thought about pricing because we went to the community uh mastige so mass prestige who are you going after um clinic l 'oreal paris la roche posay we so i'll tell you i'll tell you how much we're thinking i think i'm right in saying about between 18 and 25 pounds perfect uh will be sort of the benchmark um so it makes it affordable for 95 % of the population. And I love that. And that's where I would target all products. If I have my own brand and I've been asked many a time, that's where I'd pitch it.

26:53Mastige is where it's at. It's also outstripping and outgrowing high-end skincare massively. Any high-end brand that tells you that they're doing well at the moment is lying just a little bit. The more you use any product, the more your skin gets used to it and therefore it becomes immune to it. I'd say that's a myth. Yeah, it is a myth. Absolutely. I don't know where it comes from. You also, another good myth is you do not need to use all products from one single brand. And a lot of brands will try and sell you that. So I think brands are selling you that. I also think it's a myth that some skin specialists like to think that, you know, basically your skin's if you've got a great skincare routine and it works for your skin, keep using it.

27:33You might not see the same improvements because as you said with your friend that runs P &Is, if you've never used a skincare product and suddenly you use a skincare product, your skin will suddenly look better. And then it will start to tail off, but it will never go back down again. It will keep improving. Yeah. Okay. Oily skin doesn't need moisturiser. That's a myth. Yeah, it is a myth. You've been trained well. I've been trained well. I feel like Yoda.