Expert Product Developer: What Do They Do?

0:00In relation to our mission statement, we've got Charlie on Patreon saying, stop secretly using your wife's nighttime repair serum and proudly embrace your own. Is that Charlie or Hannah on Patreon? I think it bites me. Both of my wives secretly getting it. That's the only way we can talk now through my Patreon. Yeah, yeah. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How to Fail here. My next guest is the award-winning investigative journalist and best-selling author acclaimed for his deep dives into subjects like the Troubles in Say Nothing and corporate power in Empire of Pain. Yes, it's Patrick Radden Keefe.

0:37We talk about families. We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and how to write them. And then there's this. The legal threats don't scare me. I will say I get a lot of those. The people, the gangsters never threaten me in a kind of outright way. Listen to How to Fail wherever you get your podcasts.

0:58Hello and welcome to The Businessman. With me, Joel Domit. And can I say your name? Go on. Ben Shepard. How did that feel? It felt good, man. It felt powerful. How's the mouthfeel of Ben Shepard? Well, Ben Shepard. Ben Shepard. A lot of people spell your name wrong, don't they? They do. And it has been infuriating over the years. I was once in a school play. You know how we like to take a little sidebar at school. My sister was in it. My brother was in it. My mum did the makeup and I'm in it. Can I just stop you, please? literally the funniest thing how literally 30 seconds ago our producer says hey so we're just going to stick to it we're just going to go we're just going to make the start of this episode really quick just dish dish dish we're going to get into what they're we're going to bullet points about the episode 30 seconds later Ben Sheffield goes I was at a school play

1:52but yeah carry on it's your fault I love you well all four of us We're in the play and our surname was spelt wrong four times. Oh my God. Four times. And in fact, we've still got the programme. It was Josephine's amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. My sister played Potiphar's wife. My brother was the narrator. I was, I was the king. I was wandering along by the banks of the river when seven fat cows came out of the north. Oh my God. And my mum did the make-up. They spelt our name wrong four times. It has haunted me my entire life. That is ridiculous. Names are important and there is a, That is why you brought it up, isn't it?

2:27That is, you know what, Ben? That's exactly why I brought it up. It really is. We're going to be talking about loads of really interesting things today on the podcast with as many tangents as you could possibly imagine. First of all, we're going to be discussing the name. Yes, we have a name update. Name update. We got very excited about our name in the last episode. I've got a name update for you. I don't know what that name update is, so I'm very excited to hear what that is. we're going to be speaking to a product developer who we've been speaking to sort of privately over the last sort of couple of weeks, so updating on that.

2:58Privately? I've been talking to you. I've been doing all of my calls topless. Isn't that weird? It's not unusual for you, no. The amazing Angela Ajay is going to be joining us. She's been involved in this, helping us develop all of that, so we're going to introduce you to Angela. We're also going to be hearing what everybody's been saying on our Patreon as well. Yes, very very important indeed. A busy show and probably one or two sidebars. Oh yeah, you can always, you can always appreciate a sidebar. You'll find out all of that after this. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How To Fail here. My next guest is the award-winning investigative journalist and best-selling author acclaimed for his deep dives into subjects like the Troubles in Say Nothing and Corporate Power in Empire of Pain.

3:42Yes, it's Patrick Radden Keefe. We talk about families, We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and how to write them. And then there's this. The legal threats don't scare me. I will say I get a lot of those. The people, the gangsters never threaten me in a kind of outright way. Listen to How to Fail wherever you get your podcasts. So, Ben, name update. What's going on? So, it is the big discussion topic on Patreon. We've been getting some ideas. last episode one of the ideas that we flirted with was Fit Face loved it which we both love because it represents a lot about who we are we like being fit and healthy of course there's the idea about your face being fit and ready for action feels a bit tongue in cheek as well it feels a bit like you know you're fit don't feel fit don't you know it feels good and you know it bad news oh no stop Fit Face is not possible why yeah it's been taken by another business.

4:45Oh, let's kill them. Can we kill them? Is that too far for the podcast? That's not necessarily the first choice. We could maybe... Episode eight, we're speaking to a hitman. You're going back on the dark web. Do you think BT have any sort of business, have any sort of cybersecurity advisors that can help us with that? No, so unfortunately, Fit Face is out. Oh no. And we were quite leaning towards that one when we did like it. So what was it? Do you know the details of it? Should we get into it? Like what's the... I just don't think there's any point. Another business had it. I mean, you can do...

5:20Occasionally when these things come up, you can go to them and you can negotiate to buy the rights to it, but we don't have any money. Right. And it's not the sort of thing that we want to do right now. Certainly not where we want to put our resource. I think we go back to the drawing board. We've still got another few options that we're toying with. We've been given a few options from everybody on the Patreon as well. And SJs as well. SJs were brilliant. of course and actually the process of choosing them has been fascinating my dad listened to SJ's episode my dad worked in business all his life and he found it absolutely fascinating that how she put together the ideas of the names for the brand but we are still searching for a name for our brand Joel yes we are but we will be I also want to sort of assure you as listeners we will be picking one I know we're on episode 7 now and we haven't yet picked one and it feels like we're really dragging this out but it's obviously a massively important part of this whole journey we want to get it right and so keep throwing names at us, it might be that one that we see and we go oh my god that's perfect hopefully now at 7 episodes deep you sort of know our vibe you know what we're after, we know what we want we are listening we promise so keep throwing them at us we are all ears we are desperate to find the right name and we want to get it right it's so difficult it is really and also the problem is the more names that you consider the harder it becomes at some point we're just going to have to go for something and then hope that no one else has it already it's absolutely so bad news about FitFace but the good news is our product developer Angelo is going to be joining us on the podcast to talk through some of the survey results we've had so far, which has been amazing.

7:05And also some ideas for products. She's been percolating ideas and coming up with thoughts because this is the world that she works in, skincare, product development. And she's going to be joining us to run us through some more positive, exciting things. Yes, she's joining us from her holiday as well, which is unbelievable. Are you going to join me from your holiday in Australia? No, yes, I might do actually. I know I'm going away for quite a long time. It's not a holiday, Ben. Ben, Ben, you try getting up at midnight and working all the way through. I did it for 10 years, 20 years. All right, that's true.

7:39He's the only person. So, yes. So Angela is joining us from her sunshine drenched holiday to fill us in on how we're getting on with the surveys. Wonderful stuff. I am so excited. Angela Ajay is joining us on the podcast. Thank you, Angela. And from Spain. Hi. Hi, Joel. Hi, Dan. How are you? Good. We're really good. Thank you for actually being on the podcast. We've been working with you for a couple of weeks now. If we take everybody back, I think it was episode four, was it? I think it was episode four, yeah. When Russ, who is one of the exec producers of the podcast, creative business developer for Joel and I on this adventure, mentioned your relationship with him and the other businesses that you've been working on.

8:25And he said, we must meet you, get you involved, which is exactly what we've done, isn't it, Joel? Yes, and you've been helping us over the last couple of weeks put together this survey that we have been talking about so much to our listeners over and over and over. So thank you so much for helping us with this. And yeah, this is just, it's been, already I feel like I've learned so much from you, Angela. You're so, you're just, you immediately, whenever I'm around you, I feel at ease. oh that's good i'm glad to hear that okay so so just in case anybody isn't aware you're a product developer can just explain a little bit about what your role in in in all of this but what you do outside of of working with us yeah well essentially i've come to help you guys from your concepts which we're still we're talking about but we're basically there to the sourcing to working with manufacturing to the formula to the packaging all the way to getting it into people's hands and loving it so they're going through that whole process together but essentially yeah i work with brands whether they're existing brand founders or aspiring brand founders through my consultancy and just helping them through every stage that i've mentioned so if you have a little glimmer of an idea or you have an idea already it's about just getting these processes refining different details and yeah making sure you get over the line and compliantly as well because as much as it's all fancy and lovely glue cast smooth the textures and all that kind of stuff We need to make sure it works well and it's great for our market as well.

9:59As soon as Russell put us in touch with you, you know, immediately I was like, this is the person that we need. You know, you know, we've talked so much on this podcast about making sure we have the right team around us. And it really does feel great to feel like we're starting to put together that team. And you are a huge part of this team, Angela. How did you start working with Russell in the first place? So we've actually been working together. I think it's coming on to two years now. So we've been working very closely together on Gemma Tonic. So that's Gemma Atkinson's new skincare brand. And again, from coming on board with Ross, having multiple conversations and, you know, meetings on the concept, what we want to do to make it quite different, how we want to capture the audience of women, crafting the surveys that we're doing, obviously that we've done right now, to building that story and getting the community involved, because this is essentially what we're trying to do with you guys, trying to get the community involved, trying to get their feedback in terms of crafting and designing this whole collection.

10:58So yeah, working really closely to go about to be able to shape and really build this brand from scratch. I think one of the things that you have done brilliantly, unquestionably with Gemma, and what Gemma has done brilliantly is creating that community and understanding what it is that the people that she's trying to serve with her wonderful brand, Gemma Tonic, delivers to them what they're after and taking the feedback and listening carefully to what they're saying, which is exactly what we want with this. With that in mind, Angela, how have the surveys been going? Going well. I mean, we spoke about this a bit earlier, that it's so surprising to see how many men have been eager to get involved and just share their opinions as well.

11:37And it's been interesting to see how men really get into it. Once you kind of start asking them questions, they're really willing to start talking about their grooming routine, their skincare habits, their body care routine. and I think going into this we were a bit maybe uncertain if men would be willing I guess it's going to take to answering these questions and being quite open about their skincare but I think for me and what I shared with you guys earlier is how men are so willing to just be quite um I guess flexible their skincare routine so they'll do something in the morning and they'll have a bit of a regime that they do at night as well which we going into this I guess maybe didn't expect so So again, things like this feed into what we might end up launching as a brand.

12:19So that's been super interesting. A lot of men wrote in the comments about how they use their partner skincare as well. I mean, I'm sure you guys did. Joel is very guilty of that. If Hannah says one thing, it's that he keeps stealing her gear. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hundreds of pounds of products that I use. And the thing that she gets most annoyed about is literally the other day. I'll take her cream. she'll be like yeah you know what you could use this it's a really good one and I'll be like amazing this is going to be the elixir that like works on my skin and then she gets so annoyed at me because I don't put the top back on top and she's like you have such disregard for the product it just loses it to me we definitely need to design products that mean that Joel can't leave the lid off self sealing or something even just something from the pump so you don't have to worry about closing it yes joel is as simple as a pump oh my god let me assure you pumping is what got me into this problem in the first place so we we know your credentials and you've been absolutely fantastic so far we still want more people to sign up to the surveys and get involved because their feedback is hugely important to this whole adventure what can they expect if they're going to take our survey and going to try and join up to our community um i think it's number one we wanted it to be a bit of a place for you to be able to share your um the brands that you use you know we go further in and you're going to see another survey releasing soon about kind of different price points and the brands that you're loyal to and what you actually want to see you know you're concerned with kind of grooming but let's go in a bit deeper than that what is that specifically to do with grooming is it maybe ingrown hairs is it to you know condition your bids if you do have a beard is that relevant to you are you bald you know let's let's really get into what is it that you guys need as men as a as a community and making it so it doesn't feel so kind of polarized so we want men to feel like they can use it um it doesn't need to feel almost like an industrial type of product we can use it when you're maybe just feeling a bit like you want a bit of comfort a bit of soothing men need a bit of self-care as well so we wanted to make sure that whatever types of ingredients that we're looking at men have even in my surveys they've noticed some um products here which surprised me as well that you know they are using i guess what you wouldn't traditionally class as a male skincare brand they are using like joel touched upon female i guess female steering brands and yeah i think it's been interesting for us and like you said we were discussing it earlier i'm just looking at this just talking about using things sequentially so making sure they have a bit of a regime which i haven't considered like some of the men that have filled in this ad, they have been very clear to say, you know, they want to make sure that they trap their skin.

15:01They're very much green. They have a specific cream that they use, but they're willing to explore more to do more. So I think that also feeds into what we can go on to launch. So I think figuring out what that routine is for, trying to get it right for as many men as possible, I think is key here, right? Yeah, exactly. And that's really interesting. that's really interesting textures you know that massively is a focus because you know you want things that absorb quite quickly similar to women we don't have time to just wait for however many routine however many steps in the routine we want something that's quickly absorbing into the skin you know that works on base the face the top half of your face and also the bottom half which may or may not have um hair beard hair but um yeah i think it's just even looking here just dual use products not as far as a five in one because you know that's a bit too much but maybe things that have multiple uses that can multitask as well okay so we i mean i talk a lot about tinted moisturizers that the sort of thing you mean so a moisturizer that's great for your skin but also gives you a bit of color at the same time yeah something that like something exactly like that then so something that you could um use in i guess a multiple way so like you said it's coverage for one hydration for another and also um you know just actually giving you a bit of a i wouldn't say glow but just giving you a bit of a sheen or just looking like you're well rested i suppose yeah this is genuinely something i was thinking about this morning because every morning now I put on a tinted moisturizer mixed with an SPF moisturizer right and I was like why can these things not be combined and I don't think there's any I mean I don't know I haven't seen any other products specifically especially for men where you have a tinted moisturizer that's combined with an SPF and why can't we do that I mean why can't we yeah I mean I don't know it just feels interesting yeah for sure definitely an SPF I mean I'll always be an advocate for SPF I guess something you should be using daily but you wouldn't want to use an spf use your moisturizer and maybe something on top for example you might want to use um something that's more like a serum base so normally it would be serum maybe an eye cream moisturizer and stf rather than using four products is there a way we can incorporate it to just use one yeah love that efficiency less faff yeah and and you know make it make sure that it works um i'm sure that you as somebody who is a product developer when we started talking about you know would you come and be involved in this immediately started percolating ideas of products that you think might work is there any sort of little gems that you can share with us or thoughts i know that i know that we're going to be guided by the survey but from your vast expertise i would definitely say this kind of like hybrid or dual kind of use and it's almost like it just feeds in so well the fact that you're doing it together you're a duo if we can find some sort of unique duo of ingredients that work really well together that even almost I guess take on board some of your personalities that would be amazing for me as someone that develops products would love to would love to do and you know maybe if you could work in a way that we do one product for you know I don't know a shave product and then straight after you shave it you kind of look a shave you use another product so it's almost like okay this is your set that you need to use one and two that is quite interesting because everyone looks if you know traditionally it's always been the three-step program people add to that three steps but for some reason it's always like cleanse to moisturize you know or like uh now it's sort of like cleanse to moisturize but now it's sort of changed into maybe cleanse serum moisturize uh you know and it did all of that stuff be really interesting an idea of putting it down instead of expanding it and making it five steps bring it down and bring those three down to two steps it's quite an interesting angle i suppose yeah i don't know is there any other sort of uh the gems of knowledge that you can give to us just in a business sense for us uh before we uh carry on this mad journey of ours i would say be patient with it it takes time as much as i know you guys are quick you know you're very quick for things you're eager to go yes come on be patient with it and I know I just know when it comes to samples we're gonna you're gonna try multiple probably one of you is gonna love it one of you is gonna hate it it's about finding that middle ground and being patient with each other and just understanding what would work for the masses as well so be gentle with me yes be gentle and patient Angela look honestly I've said it already but you you make me feel like this is the right decision to be in this room do you know what I mean like and I trust Ben implicitly i genuinely do i've said it on this podcast before but uh she completes us you complete us to coin a phrase you really do complete us and your wealth of knowledge is uh is just brilliant and it's um it makes me feel a lot more comfortable thank you for being on the journey can i just say as well that you know like we've got to be patient with each other can i ask that you're quite patient with us i think that might be more of a challenge i've learned definitely we are we are slow on the uptake but keen to learn and have boundless enthusiasm for as much that you can share with us as possible so thank you is there anything else that you feel like we should share regarding these surveys and the community we're trying to build before we let you go back to enjoying your holiday I would just say keep going I think the men so far have been just so open with what they use and what they want to see as well so just keep being as open as possible because we are reading everything we are seeing all the comments we are taking on board and like um you guys have already said it's the community that are really going to shape the output so from the product from the packaging so you know the different types of formulas you guys the community are going to shape that so just keep being open with us keep sharing keep being enthusiastic as well so it's great to read the comment and the third that's amazing thank you so much for your time get back to your holiday right see you guys soon Angela just make sure make sure when you are on your holiday lots of SPF okay SPF someone very important to them love Angela she's amazing she's great and knows her onions I mean literally if she could put onions on someone's face she would and she would do it perfectly I'm sure it would be actually a great product so first things first great responses clearly from everybody that's taken the survey already thank you for joining up to the survey and being so on guard and open about what it is that you want from your skincare.

21:31I think that's really encouraging, isn't it? Yeah. And also, you know, maybe I'm overplaying this, but hopefully it's quite interesting for you guys to get involved. And then, you know, something that you might want might become available. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. It's quite interesting. You could guide us down the route for something you've been desperately looking for for a very long time, and we could well create that for you. And then you would have that to put on your face. Yeah. And that's, you know, a lot of people keep saying to us, it feels like there's quite a sort of, there's a gap in the market there.

22:07And this is, this is, I mean, your chance to be heard, essentially. You know, I don't want to oversell it, but I just, I do feel it's quite interesting. It's pretty interesting for my, I know it's my podcast, but it's quite interesting. I love the idea. No, no, no, you're absolutely right. But you could have Joel and Ben all over your face.

22:27Which, which could be a name because we still haven't got a name, Joel. Oh, for God's sake. How are we in this episode? We still haven't got a name. Would you like some Patreon comments? Because we've had one or two suggestions. Thank you for all your Patreon comments. You can go to the boardroom, which is on our Patreon. Also, the link is in both of our Instagram bios if you want to sign up to do more surveys as well. This has come from KH on Patreon. KH has offered gents. I'll offer up the name Fool with a PH. PH00, not 00, PHOOL. Do you remember SJ was saying there's a thing about 00? Google, Zoom, all that malarkey.

23:00There is a PH in Cream. In Ben's surname, there is a Chepard. Fool is what Joel does for a living. This is a very good point. This is good. There is the double O like Google, Yahoo, Zoom. We're all trying to fool time with our skincare. Mate, I'm telling you, KH, that's good. You're a fool not to use it, etc, etc. All the best for the journey ahead. Ahead. Now there's another one. Welcome to our lives at the moment, KH. every time someone says something oh could that work it's like it's really hard to live your life it's really debilitating yeah um that's really interesting okay in relation to our mission statement we got charlie on patreon saying stop secretly using your wife's night time repair serum and proudly embrace your own is that charlie or hannah on patreon i think that bites me both of my wife secretly getting that's the only way we can talk now through my patreon Yeah, yeah.

23:56Suddenly she's found a route to communicate. Kate B on Patreon, making skincare affordable and accessible depends what demographic you're going after, though. Male skincare products aren't at the price point that most men would think, oh, I'll give it a go. I wonder if Kate B's thinking that it's too expensive and actually they'll go, because men tend to be a little bit more cautious about the idea of spending money on something like their face. And, you know, we've talked about that sort of statistic of something like 70 % of women buy products for their partners. Yeah, male skincare is bought by 70, 80 % of women.

24:30And, you know, women don't want to be buying something for their husband or boyfriend or whatever. If it's stupidly expensive, they're not going to use it. Too right. This is quite, I'm not going to go into a mad story. Trust me. Okay. But this is really interesting. So once I went to, went for a facial, right? Stop it. Stop it. stop it this is another one everyone stop was this on another one it was in Soho okay so we were so we were proficient and all nice all the peels all that stuff right interesting and afterwards she was like you could do this an eye cream and I was like oh great and I'm literally I I'd love to be told what to do yes we like direction we like being produced that's what we're finding out on this journey people love to especially men and skincare love to be told where to do what to do you know and she said you could do with an eye cream and i was like great okay great um this was quite a posh facial as well it was quite like an expensive one it's one that hannah goes to and um uh at the end of the till sort of tilled everything up and she gave me a bit of a discount for the facial so i was like thank you so much it's very lovely and i went oh you know what i'll get that eye cream let's have the eye cream she put the eye cream on and she went well which one do you want you want this one or do you want this one uh this one's really really good is you know i obviously was upsold when for the expensive one she put it through when i when i say that eye cream it was the tiny it was the tiniest little thing i'm nervous already i'm gonna say how big how big's that bed i'm saying like 20 mils yeah Yeah.

26:17So yeah. Like a file of it. So it's about that much, right? Little squeezy thing. It was£120 for an eye cream, right? And this is, again, what we need to figure out, right? Price point is really important because... We need to be guided with that, don't we? We need to be guided with that. And obviously what we say in our brains, if something's expensive, then we think it works. But that might not necessarily be the case. But also what's very interesting for me in using the eye cream, Did you use it? I used it, but I'm so tight. I used it so incrementally over a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was using the tiniest bit amount.

26:55Even if it did work, I wasn't putting enough on my face for it to do anything. But you would take, you would, it would be like elixir, like you described earlier. When it's that precious, you think, well, I don't need much. Surely I don't need much. Tiniest amount. Tiniest amount. And 120 pounds. I never bought any more. I think Kate makes a really good point. Thank you, Kate. A really, really good point. Nick Dewar on Patreon Nick thank you for getting in touch I really like this from Nick actually Personally I would look towards a skincare brand That creates clean high performance skincare essentials That help men look and feel their best Without the jargon, fuss or false promises Something that provides me with confidence Helps me feel calm and in control So it's one less thing I need to worry about I love that That's really interesting I think essentially when we really boil it down This is what we're wanting to create.

27:46Something that gives people confidence and makes people worry less. Like it's, you know, essentially we all want to try and look and feel our best. And I feel like a lot of people I speak to feel quite confused by it. Myself included. We've talked about this. As you pointed out, worrying is aging, right? In the mission statement, worrying is aging. if we take the worrying out of it, then we're going to help ourselves not age so quickly, so severely. Amazing stuff. Thank you for all your comments. Please do sign up to the Patreon. All the details as ever, you can click on Patreon and you can go to the boardroom and take the survey.

28:27We want to hear from everybody, don't we? As many of the people as we can. We really do get involved. Thank you so much. And hopefully you can all be a part of the biggest male skincare survey of all time in the UK. Yeah. Thank you for listening or watching if you are indeed watching on the YouTube. What? People are watching? They are. That's what these cameras do. Oh, no. The link is in the Patreon for the surveys. Yes, it's also in our Instagram bios. So click on that and you'll find everything you need in terms of links to the podcast and also links to the survey. Links to anything else? Links to my OnlyFans.

29:00Links to other people's OnlyFans. I think I've got too many links on there. It's just a link to YouTube. Not my YouTube, just YouTube. Someone's. Google on there and you know what there is also a link to BT Cybersecurity because cybersecurity is ever security cheers

29:24this is a Sony Music Entertainment production, the hosts are Joel Domit and Ben Shepard, the producers are Robbie Williams and Grace Laker, the studio manager is Mateus Torres and the production manager is Jen Mistry The executive producers are Alex Lawless, Chris Skinner, Ross Schaller and Ash Saddle.