How young Sara Davies took on Helix (the one's who make your school protractors!)

18:26Sara Davies:I think he did say that to Debra as well, by the way, when she was on the cast. Oh, I'm petrified. He's so easily swayed. And you are far less scary than Debra as well. Oh, yes.

18:35Joel:I think everybody's a little bit less scary than Debra.

18:38Sara Davies:Look, thank you so much for coming along. You have such a busy life. You have so many balls that you're juggling at all times. To have you on the Businessman Podcast is a real thrill for both of us. It really is.

18:47Joel:Yes, but I worry about you guys. You're businessmen now. You need all the help you can get. Not being funny, but business is tough.

18:55Sara Davies:It is.

18:56Joel:So when you asked me to come along and give you a bit of advice, I was like, yeah, get me in there because they need all the help you can get.

19:02Sara Davies:Because I mentioned it to you really briefly in the summer because it's really funny when I think about it. We were at Wimbledon together. We both took our parents. You did, our mums. Our parents got on like a bloody house on fire, didn't they? and then it was just weird we had a lovely day it was really nice we sort of saw each other in the crowds no that's not true

19:22Joel:I was walking along and I just did Sarah! Sarah! Sarah! What about you? You were at Wimbledon you're not supposed to be

19:29Sara Davies:a night at Wimbledon I know it was across the court whilst Djokovic was playing you need Sarah you need Sarah and then I said I said well you know what me and Ben are thinking about setting up this this skincare company you're like oh you're like tell me about it or tell me about it.

19:46Joel:That is the dodgiest Johnny accent ever. Wait, you don't want to hear his Scouse accent either, by the way.

19:51Sara Davies:Because we have problems with that too. She is not Spanish. She's from the Northeast, man. It went rogue halfway through, I will be honest. There was only three words.

20:01Joel:But I did get very excited to hear, oh, tell us all about it, tell us all about it.

20:04Sara Davies:And you were like, you were like, tell me. And I were like, yeah, we're finding investors and we're going to do this, we're going to do this. You were like, oh, who's going to invest in it? I was like, I don't know. Every question that you ask me, that a legitimate business person would ask. You asked me and I had none of the answers. None of them. None at all. None of them. And I think I remember you saying these words, I'm a bit worried about you, John.

20:25Joel:Hence, when you said, could I come in and give you a bit of advice? I was like, I was waiting for this call.

20:33Sara Davies:That phone went. Yes. Well, look, we are thrilled you're here. Thank you. Hopefully, we've got a few more answers for you, Sarah. I would hope so. They are very bona fide questions that you asked. And we will come on to a little bit about what we're doing and how we're going to do it. But for our listeners and our viewers that are watching on YouTube, it's always really fantastic to sort of be able to go back and talk to you about your world experience of getting into business, if we may. And a little bit of your history, because what you've managed to achieve and the journey you've been on is just extraordinary.

21:00Sara Davies:Unbelievable. Really. I mean, you're smiling now, which I think is great. because when we've looked at what it is that you've managed to do, it's just extraordinary. Can you tell us how your career began? Take us back to the beginning, sir.

21:14Joel:I can indeed. So I always get asked that question, do you think entrepreneurs are born or made? I guess we're going to find out with you two, aren't we? And honestly, I don't know because both of my parents ran their own business. If I was at school and the other kid said to us, what do your mum and dad do? I'd never say, oh, they're entrepreneurs because that's a big fancy word from a young lass from a pit village in the northeast of England. So I used to say, oh yeah, they've got the shop in the village or they run their own business. But I think because I grew up seeing them run their own business, I didn't know any other life.

21:47Joel:Like they've got the wallpaper and paint shop in our village and we'd have decorators knock on our door at 10 o 'clock at night and me man would just get up, put a dressing gown on, open the shop and mix them a tin of paint if they were off on a six o 'clock start the next morning. Is that right? Like we just, when you run your own business, you don't say no. You just, you do everything to make your customers happy. And because I'd grown up seeing that life and I knew that that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to run my own business. I just had no idea what I would do that in. So the backup plan was always, I'd take over the family business and I'd take over from them, which ironically, my sister now took over because I didn't do it and I'd started my own business.

22:24Joel:She took over it about 10 years ago. So, but that was always the backup plan but then I went off to university to do management with a view of I'm going to learn how business is run in the 21st century and I'm going to come back and teach me

22:36Sara Davies:father because he needed to oh really he's so old school and he's thinking me dad I was like I'm

22:42Joel:going to teach him how things are done now and you know I look back now at what I learned at university and 95 98 percent of what I do in my life has come from experience not from what I learned from the text not the classroom yeah but but but my mom and dad really wanted me to go and have that to go and learn. They wanted me to go and have the university experience. So I went off and I learned all about cashflow and business models and marketing plans and all of this sort of stuff. And I went, I did one of those degrees where you do a couple of years studying, then you go and work for a year and then you go back to university and put all what you've learned to practice.

23:15Joel:And so I worked for this tiny little craft company in my year's placement. And honestly, I had no idea that so many people made handmade cards and that it was a multi-billion pound industry.

23:26Sara Davies:So that wasn't your, it wasn't something you had done. You weren't particularly crafty before then.

23:30Joel:I mean, don't get me wrong. Me mum always did crafts with me and my sister. Yeah, sure. Not like I would have thought, oh, that's my hobby and I'm going to make it into a business. So I ended up falling into this little tiny business. You know, she had half a dozen staff. She was an artist and she'd built the business up from there. And I fell in love with the customers. Oh my God, the people who craft, it's not a hobby for them. It's a passion. They love what they do. They want to share it with other people makes them feel good and I looked at them and I was like I just want to do a business in that industry yeah and so and I mean this was like 22 23 years ago so I had to go and take night classes I did a city and guilds craft course because I wanted to learn how to craft and like this is before YouTube was big and anything because I'm so old now um so I went and took night classes in crafting so I learned how to craft and and I had I knew how to run a business i'd watch my mom and dad do it for years and i remember i had all these business ideas and i would take me business ideas that i'd got from listening to the customers that is your number one rule you should be making notes on all these and i've forgotten a pen listen to your customers you haven't got all the ideas they've got all the ideas though right so i used to listen to the crafters and they would tell me what it is they wanted what product ideas what you know where the gaps in the market were would come from essentially customer research so i tried to take all of the business ideas that I've been given and take it to the woman who owned the business.

24:54Joel:You know, I was just the management student helping out for the year. I was taking her all these ideas from the customers. She looked at us like I had three heads. She's like, well, I've got loads of ideas. I know what I'm doing. You know, I don't need all this.

25:05Sara Davies:So she was happy doing it her way. She did it her way.

25:07Joel:And she wasn't listening to the customers. And so there was all these ideas and I'm going, this is going to be big. This is going to be big. No, no, not interested. and so I felt like I was bubbling over with ideas and I came home and I chatted to my dad about it and I was like dad I've got all these ideas for a craft business and he was like well we'll start a craft business then pet and so I ended up going back to university for my final year and starting this as a side hustle from my university bedroom so I started crafters companion with my little bit of craft knowledge that I'd got from my night classes from your city and guilds with what I'd learned from doing me a couple of years of management, you know, business.

25:43Joel:And I started it literally from the university bedroom in that last year with a view to, well, I've got nothing to lose. So I didn't borrow any money. I didn't owe anybody anything. You know, I used me five grand for the savings from the year. That's what I started the business with. And I thought, well, if it all goes belly up, I'm just going to come and take over the family business next summer. And then by the time I graduated nine months later, Crafter's Companion was turning over half a million quid and making more money than my mom and dad's business that had been going 25 years so I was like I guess I'm in crafting and that that's that's how I got started it's so

26:17Sara Davies:interesting it's like like that sort of crafting mixed with the business acumen and those two together it's like people usually would have one or the other but those two things together

26:28Joel:you know what it is though craft just happened to be my vehicle you know I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to run my own business. I wanted to be master my own destiny. I just didn't know whether I was going to be selling wallpaper and paint like my mom and dad had, or something completely different. I fell into the craft, but I loved it. The trick is you've got to love it. You know, my dad said to us, if you do something you love, kid, you'll never work a day in your life. And I can tell you, I've had 20 years of bloody hard graft, but I feel like it's not felt like work because I love it.

26:59Sara Davies:You must have had some big risks that you've taken since then? What would you say is the biggest risk that you've taken in your career?

27:04Joel:Do you know what's really funny? Because I have a very unhealthy relationship with risk. Like, I don't see it as risk. To me, if that's a challenge, I'm just going to have to work harder to make sure it works. Well, I married an accountant.

27:20Sara Davies:They are very risk averse.

27:22Joel:He's not just on a different page to me. We're in different libraries, me and Simon. right so um so i think that often balanced my risk but i think the the biggest risk i ever took and and i wandered into it without it's not that i didn't realize it's when i'm learned my biggest lesson in business as well and somebody knocked off my envelope maker somebody saw that and thought oh it's a good tool she's only a little two-bit businesswoman you know she's never going to take us on and they were a big they were a big company and we'll just copy her envelope maker they knew i had a patent. They were so cheeky, actually.

27:57Joel:They rang me. It was Helix, you know, make Patrakowski. So the head of Helix invited me down to their offices to tell them all about my envelope maker under the guise of they could manufacture it en masse for me and distribute it in 62 countries. So I mean, to me, 21 year old, I was so excited. I skipped off down to their offices, told them all about it. They were really interested in my patent. So I told them all about my patent I'd applied for and never heard from them again. And then And six months later, here they are launching the Helix envelope phone board. No. And I thought, you little.

28:29Joel:Sarah. Yeah. And so, and I was like, it was like a David and Goliath moment. Of course. And I'm like, well, obviously, if you look at my envelope maker and you look at theirs, it's pretty obvious they've copied us. And so in my head, that's what the patent law is there to do. Protect the little people. Well, it's not quite as clean cut as that. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about who's got the best lawyers, who's got the deepest pockets, and how well is your patent written and how deep are you prepared to go to defend it? Sure. And I can remember, I just went, and this is when my advice was coming from my dad, who's even more emotive than I am.

29:04Joel:And in my dad's eyes, it's like Mr. Helix had taken on little Sazzy. Yeah. He was a little daughter. His daughter, yeah. And he was like, we're having none of this. You tell them, kid, they can't do this. We'll see them in court. It's all right saying that. Yeah. But, you know, a couple of months later, when I'm sitting in court and I'm into this for neck end a quarter of a million quid at this point. Stop it. Defending this patent, yeah? And if I lose this case, then that's it. I could lose the whole business. But the problem is I started off that path of, well, they're wrong and I'm right, so I'm going to defend it.

29:36Joel:But as soon as you make the first, as soon as I send them that legal letter, then they reply, then I'm under obligation. And then you can't just say, oh, I've changed my mind now, I don't want to sue you. Like you're into it and the fees are racking up And so that was probably the biggest risk I took without realising I'd taken it. I just, I wanted. Now, I've successfully defended that same patent six times. Have you really? But every time, soon as somebody's infringed the patent, now we put a business case together, we look at, right, what's it potentially going to cost us to defend it? What's the risk profile?

30:09Joel:What's the likelihood that we'll lose there? What's it going to cost us commercially? Instead of looking at how do I feel about this?

30:16Sara Davies:It's the injustice of it.

30:18Joel:commercially is this right to do that. And then I make a business decision.

30:22Sara Davies:In your face, Helix. Yes, exactly. Back to making protractors, you dickheads. You licked Helix. Yes. So Crafters Companion, so you launch it at sort of your last year at university. Very early on, you go through this really difficult, painful, traumatic, ultimately successful lawsuit. Just explain a little bit about what it went on to achieve because you sold it first time and then got back into it, or you...

30:48Joel:Oh, I've been on quite the journey. It was our 20th anniversary this October. Right. Just gone 20 years in business. So I built that business up. We built it from the ground up to a 35, 38 million turnover business, about 250 staff globally.

31:04Sara Davies:Isn't that unbelievable?

31:07Joel:Yeah.

31:07Sara Davies:That is unbelievable.

31:10Joel:But do you know what? It's what you're saying about not being frightened to be the stupidest person in the room or surrounding yourself with people who are better than you, right? I am brilliant at some things. Like, you want to pitch? I'm your woman, right? Doesn't matter who we're pitching, I'm going to do that pitch, right? Whether it's the corner shop selling crafts down the road, or whether it's Michael's with 1 ,200 stores in America, or whether we're going on TV shopping telly, I'm your pitch woman, right? You want finances doing? I have a better understanding of finances than most non-financial people around a board table.

31:41Joel:I'm not an accountant. Simon, my husband, is. So we had complementary skills. You know, I wasn't frightened. There were a lot of people in the business who got paid more money than I did. Right. Because they had skills that I needed. And I was never frightened to bring people in who know more than me and create an environment where they will challenge me on my thinking. Because the problem is when you're the big, big boss, it's so easy to surround yourself with yes people. You know, it's really scary for somebody to stand up to me and go, do you know what, Sarah? I know you think that's a great marketing idea, but I'm the marketing expert and you're not.

32:14Joel:And this is why it's not right. Because eventually what I'm going to do is I'm going to be like, no, but my idea is great because of this, this, that and the other. Most people at some point think, I value my job. I'm just going to go along with what she says. Yes, easy to agree. And actually, that's not helping. I need people who know that their job's not on the line. I've hired them and I trust that they know more than me. But you've got to convince me that you're right so that eventually I'm never frightened to admit I'm wrong. And I go, actually, I see your way of thinking. Yes, I agree with that now.

32:43Sara Davies:I love that you and your husband are like the perfect match. I love the idea that at your wedding, you would have sold your vows so beautifully and it all would have come in under budget.

32:54Joel:You will love this. So I had a spreadsheet, right? So he wrote a spreadsheet for our wedding. We've been married 18 years now, so it's been quite a while. I've been together since I was 15, but I had the spreadsheet. So I had to agree a budget line for everything on there. And he plugged in the budget. And then if I went ahead, so for example, my wedding dress. Yes. He's like, what do you think it's going to cost you for a wedding dress? I was like, oh, 500 quid. So it's 500 quid in the spreadsheet, right? So if I get a wedding dress at 500 or below, I just type in the amount of the spreadsheet.

33:24Joel:The cell comes up green. I can proceed without authorisation. This is so good. This is so good. If it's over that amount, I need to seek authorisation. From your fiancé. I don't tell you what I spent on the wedding dress, but let's just say in the spreadsheet, he thinks it was£495. And do you know what I did when I was in the changing rooms trying on the several thousand pound dress that I felt amazing in? I was calculating how many envelopes I had to sell. I was making a pound profit on each one. I was like, how am I going to sell another two and a half thousand envelopes to pay for the wedding dress?

34:02Sara Davies:Get you sit down the post box and chuck a load more in the post. That is so good.

34:07Ben:I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart. And I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handel's Story. I created it about a man named Jake, who I met, who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising. and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story.

34:45Ben:It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen and subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com.

35:13Sara Davies:I want to shift it forward a bit because we need to talk a little bit about where we are and what we're doing, but also our listeners and the people that watch the podcast have small business of their own and they would love to understand what it is you need to hear from someone when it comes to investing in a business. What do you look out for in a business if you're thinking this is something I like?

35:32Joel:Okay, so easy thing is it's not about the business. It's not about the product. It's about the person, right? Right. I can tell, when I sit in that chair in the den and them lift doors open, I know within the first three minutes if I want to make them an offer. That quick. I know straight away because it's the person. And I just think, like I said to you earlier, I'm a business person. I'm an entrepreneur. My vehicle just happened to be craft. I'd like to believe that you could have dropped me into any industry and I would have built a successful business. It just happens to be that I landed in this industry and I fell in love.

36:05Joel:And yes, there was a gap in the market, but I just researched until I spotted the gap in the market. A great entrepreneur can do all of that. And I sometimes see there'll be someone comes in and they've got an unbelievable idea. You're a brilliant business. But I look at them and I think, I just don't think you've got what it takes. I just don't think you've got the gut for this. I don't think you've got the passion, the vision and the drive. That's what I'm really looking for. Passion, vision, drive. And then as an investor, and granted, I approach investing different to a lot of investors. and I think one thing that a lot of people don't think about is you imagine I'm an investor whether it's in the dead or anywhere in life right I have so many options of where I can put my money the person I trust to make money more than anybody else is me so if I have half a million quid spare I can either invest it in my own business where I know I can turn that half a million into a million or I can come and I can split it across 10 other businesses known fine well the statistics say seven of them will fail right why would you ever invest in anything other than your own business So it's really hard when you think of investors, especially entrepreneurial investors, like the dragons that you see in the den.

37:12Joel:We are choosing to spend our money on other people, which is more risky than spending it on ourselves. Why would you do that, right? And it's because I can't fill my own cup up anymore investing in myself anymore. Like I've achieved everything I want to achieve in that regard. Investing in somebody else's business, being a part of their journey, oh my God, that takes me to a new level. some of those businesses I've invested in the den you know some of them are second and third generation family businesses people who started businesses from a passion people who were genuinely trying to make a difference in the world and I know that they are more likely to succeed because I'm on board supporting them and actually the fact that I might make a couple of quid along the way it's just a bit of a Brucie bonus I know that actually I'll get so much pleasure and enjoyment from seeing them on that journey watching them flourish so so my I look at them and I think are you going to succeed?

38:04Joel:Because I'm certainly not missing my money if you're not, right? Are you going to piss my money up the wall? Because, you know, but if they genuinely because they want that help and support and I like that person, I know they're going to hang on my every word. They're going to take my advice. They're going to sit, you know, people who get 15, 20 minutes with me, actually, they take everything I've got and then they go and implement everything I've told them. I can work with people like that and I'll give them my time any day of the week. Whereas the ones who come in thinking they know it all, you know, and you're lucky to get to invest in my business.

38:32Joel:they're not the ones for me.

38:33Sara Davies:Sarah has lots more pitching and investor insights over on our Patreon. So all you need to do is join for free at patreon.com forward slash the businessman. If you're starting a business or you're fascinated by what she's been telling and you want to hear more about how it works, then we urge you to head over there and check it out. Sarah, now, what should you prioritize when building a new business? Say, a men's skincare business. What would you say would be the priorities? Good example, Ben. Good example. Very specific. Right.

39:03Joel:I want you, I love how he's got his pen straight. Oh, it's very good. Yeah, it's very good. Right. Don't be a magpie. Right. It's really easy to go and stick with the stuff that you're good at, the stuff that's really attractive to you. So, for example, Brandon and Mark, and that's dead sexy, and the social media, right? And I see people starting a business and they spend hours and hours and hours on social media, right? They haven't actually at any point looked at the commercial return on investment they are getting for time spent on social media, commercially what it's driving in the business, right?

39:39Joel:And they're doing that at the expense of maybe being in the detail on the logistics or the finances because they're not as good at that stuff. They're really good over here at marketing. So they'll do the stuff that makes them feel excited. And I say, and I've had it with businesses I've invested in in the den, they will spend hours and hours and hours on social media for example because they just they think that's how that's driving their business but they're not actually measuring it right right you need to measure and you first of all you need a business plan right to fail to plan is to plan to fail yeah right you must put a plan together and you put a plan together with all of the the elements that you need to be able to run the business all of the facets all of the i guess departments, although you are the head of every department because it's only you in the business when you're starting out, right?

40:27Joel:And you need to make sure that you are fulfilling all of those requirements and you are spending adequate time on the things that are really driving your return. Now, my problem was, I am a magpie. I want to do the fun shit, right? Because I had Simon, even before he joined the business, you know, he was like my accountability angel.

40:47Sara Davies:I love the fact you recruited him at 15. That was very smart.

40:51Joel:It's like I knew he's very smart. Putting your business together. So, yeah, but because he's a financial person, very, very different to me, he would look at all of the things that I would want to do. And the problem with me is I want to do everything, right? I never have a lack of ideas. So I'll have five ideas of things I'm wanting to run off and do and he'll rein me in and he'll go, right, with each of them five ideas, I want a one-pager on it. I want to know what the idea is. actually what's the resource that it's going to take what's the bandwidth of yours that it's going to take what's it going to cost, what might it return and all of a sudden when I look at the five ideas laid out in front of me where I've measured all those things independently, I would have a very different view on which one I should work on first versus which one am I just more excited about.

41:39Sara Davies:Yeah, which ones feel sexier. Yeah. That's true. I think I'm a magpie. Yeah, you're definitely You definitely strike me as somebody who'd be a magpie. 100 % a magpie, man. What's been fascinating i think for both of us is actually how difficult it is to convert men to take the survey online women love sharing they do we what we've ended up doing we've done we've gone through various iterations of it we now have a lot of women that can do it for the men in their lives partners husbands boyfriends brothers sons uncles wherever that person might be and that's been fascinating i think there is a statistic something crazy i'm not sure you may be able to put me right on this but 80 % of male skincare is bought by women that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest so huge so we understand that that market is actually really important for us as well but it's trying to get people to commit to the survey has been I think the first real challenge that we've sort of gone I don't understand this is like everybody starts reading it they sort of really engage with the idea of it but they won't finish a six minute survey

42:38Joel:so the big thing that you've said to me that rang alarm bells for me is when you said that the data that we have suggests that 80 % of male skincare is bought by women, yet you're still fixated on finding out what the men want, but they're not going to be the ones buying it. Now, yes, I do agree that you'll have a really strong marketing message to say to the women, this is what the men, our survey said, this is what men want, so this is why you should buy it that's great but how many if 80 percent has been bought by the women you need to not lose a psyche of we need to ask her yes what she thinks she wants because there's one thing you can't tell us we're right you're wrong okay we're women well we know our shit right yeah so so i there's no way if i mean my husband won't use any skincare he's still on the soap and water thing right you know I don't think I could convince him.

43:34Joel:But if I was able to do that, I would believe that I would have a better knowledge of skincare than what he would. Therefore, if I was buying him skincare, I would still go and buy what I think is right for him as opposed to him going, oh, yeah, Jordan Bennett doing this skincare. That might be nice because I would trust my own research.

43:55Sara Davies:Right, so you would want to understand what's in it.

43:57Joel:I think you want to know from the women. As well. As well. More so. because potentially 80 % of your income is going to come from them.

44:06Sara Davies:Yeah.

44:07Joel:Don't lose sight of that.

44:08Sara Davies:I think one of the reasons that we adapted the survey was to sort of pivot along that way. We have pivoted. We have pivoted. But it's a really good point. We've had some questions from our boardroom. Oh, you've got a boardroom. We've got a boardroom. Oh, I'm impressed. It's very exciting, isn't it? It is. Our Patreon. So if you join our Patreon for free, you can put questions on the boardroom. We've got some lovely questions, haven't we? Some really nice ones. It's a really, really nice way of you guys getting involved and ask people what you want to know. We've had a great one from, I'm going to go from Mo, says, has becoming a celebrity been a help or a hindrance for your business career?

44:47Joel:So interestingly, the more my profile is raised, it didn't do anything for Crafters Companion. Because we sell specialist products to a certain niche within the market. And my celebrity profile growing didn't have enough of an impact in that niche to move the dial on sales. However, what it did do is allow me to build a personal brand more. And the more, like you said to me, you just feel an energy around me. You feel like you trust me. That will translate to then customers eventually feeling that same way about me. So there's definitely been an intrinsic link of, I think, the more people have got to know me personally through my celebrity profile, the more that has helped me in terms of building a business audience.

45:35Sara Davies:One of the things I love, Sarah, is the diversity of what you are doing now, because, of course, we've seen you on The Den. You had that fabulous crafting show before Christmas when you came on this morning and you helped to do all sorts of things. And you're now hosting a quiz as well, Time is Money, on ITV, which I'm absolutely – have you watched it yet? No, I'm so excited. Oh, you'll love it, Joel. It's a properly gripping quiz. And, by the way, you have a really tough job on it because you have to ask a lot of questions and it's properly really under a lot of stress. Is there any part of you that worries slightly that that detracts from business, Sarah?

46:10Joel:Yes. I mean, when they asked me, do you want to be a quiz show host? It couldn't be further away from the world of business. I guess the lucky thing for me is I've got to a point in my life where I've made enough money. The business is successful. It runs along. I can do the things that are going to fill my cup up. make me happy. And what I've learned is I get more growth being outside of my comfort zone and challenging myself. So when they asked me, do you want to do a quiz show? That is so far removed from anything I've ever done in my life. It was this huge, enormous challenge. A little bit like when Comic Relief rang and said, do you want to trek 50 kilometers across the Arctic Circle?

46:48Joel:I was like, I don't know if I can physically do that. So yes. And I think growth only ever comes outside your comfort zone. And I find that skills are transferable. So I learned so much about myself, about my drive, about my tunnel vision, about connecting, projecting everything from doing the quiz, which I then take into the business world. So it might not be direct. Do you know what I learned so much about business? When I did Strictly. You would think, what can you possibly learn about business from dancing? But you wouldn't believe some of the lessons I learned and took away from Strictly that helped me become a better entrepreneur.

47:29Joel:And I think it is that outside your comfort zone is where you get the growth.

47:33Sara Davies:Sarah, thank you so much for coming in. Honestly, it's valuable advice that we absolutely need. It's fantastic.

47:41Joel:I've got plenty of it. So when you get around to the next stage and you need to prepare your investor pitches or whatever, just you give me a ring. I'll be here.

47:48Sara Davies:Time is money is your quiz. Three o 'clock, ITV1 weekdays. And on ITVX, if you've missed any, it's a really gripping exciting fun quiz I think you've done an amazing job it's lovely to see you I know how busy you are really really appreciate you can I show you visually what the name of our brand is going to be uh and see how you react to it and then you can go because we haven't got time to talk about it and this is fantastic this is for your train journey home okay here we go wow

48:18Joel:okay

48:20Sara Davies:thank you so much for coming on The Businessmen sponsored by BT Business

48:29Sara Davies:that was fantastic, I hope you guys got as much out of it as we did it was amazing, really enjoyed each other she's great isn't she Sarah it's very easy to talk to really lovely and generous with her knowledge and warmth and energy. I just, you can see why she's been so successful. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's so much to learn from her as well for, for our journey. That's all we have time for this week. Remember to subscribe on YouTube and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Please head to our Patreon. We'd love you to join the Patreon, patreon.com slash the businessmen. There's more tips from Sarah there.

49:05Sara Davies:She's put loads of really brilliant business sites in business insights on the Patreon, as well as all of our guests that have been on the businessmen. Yeah, Absolutely. And join us next week when we consult with our designer and you guys vote for the Foreskin logo. Come on. This feels exciting, doesn't it? It feels real. Oh, no. See you next week.