James Welsh on Korean skincare, breaking myths and why 'Natural Isn't Always Better’

0:00I really hate the myth that natural is better. Okay. It's kind of, there's been so much innovation done in science in the skincare world, to then think I'm just going to rub an avocado on my face for a day, pisses me off because it's like, your skin's so good at not letting stuff in. Welcome everybody to The Businessman, with me Joel Domit and Sherrington, the legend that is. What a guy. Thank you so much for joining us. This is the podcast that follows our incredible journey to creating a wonderful skincare brand. Right, Ben Shepard? Right, Joel. Peter Domit. No, it wasn't Peter, was it? I thought you said Peter then.

0:40I thought that would be an awful middle name. I'm a bit embarrassed about my middle name, to be honest. Joel Peter Domit. It was a terrible choice. It's the gift it just keeps giving. Yeah, it was Patrick. Patrick, sorry. I knew it was a P of some sort. Yeah. My grandfather was called Patrick. Oh, that's nice. So you feel like it's like a family name? And he's dead now, actually, Ben. So thank you for bringing it up. But he's always with us. I dare you. If Patrick's here, he's always with us. If you want to catch up on this and more of what we've been going through, and it kind of has meandered like this, do go back to wherever they get your podcasts.

1:13And of course, you can subscribe and watch us on the YouTube. But we have got a guest coming in today, Joel. Oh, yeah. Tell our listeners and viewers who's joining us. I absolutely cannot wait for this. He is what is known as, I would say, a skinfluencer. A skin influencer slash skinfluencer Absolutely His name is James Welsh And I am really excited to sort of Pick his ear, is that a phrase? Pick his ear? Is that a phrase? Pick his nose? No, what's the phrase where you go like Pick his brain? Pick his brain Can you tell I'm tired? I'm really excited to pick his ear I wonder if he's got good ears People lend their ear They lend their ears and pick their brain Don't lend the brain and pick the ear I just go straight, I pick the ears immediately and he knows everything you need to know about skincare for men, for women and he has a massive YouTube channel that reviews loads of brands and he's fantastic.

2:08He's exactly the sort of person we need on side. 100%. And especially before we start doing product development, stuff like that. I think he's a really interesting guy to talk to. He's a skincare expert, content creator, best known. He's sort of a very straight-talking YouTube review channel. He's a very prominent voice in the rise of the Korean skincare stuff, which is huge now, especially on TikTok shop and stuff like that. It's going to be really, really good. Should we get him in? Let's get him in. Let's have a chat. Oh, hello. I'm Simon Mayo. Oh, hello. I'm Mark Kermode. And coming up in this week's rather fabulous Take.

2:50Reviews of The Devil Wears Prada 2, the horror movie Hocum, and Surviving Earth, a film in which Harmonica features very importantly. Plus our special guest is Steve Coogan, who's one of the stars of the new Netflix series Legends. You can hear from Steve and all the other glorious content on this week's take. Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s. You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy.

3:30Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And, of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly and her tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty of is being Shaw-mazing. Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous. James, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. National treasure? how could I not come on this podcast stop it well you can come again thank you already next week I'm ready no one's been this nice about us oh really we started five seconds ago this is when Caroline Hyman sat down she said right what are you idiots going to talk to me about she means business all the time purely business she knows us very well she does thank you James I can tell already that that after this is the first time we've ever met but I can tell we're going to be friends I just can feel it You know Because I I feel like I'm very much At the beginning Of my obsession With skincare And having someone To be able to Share that with And throw products Back and forth And ideas And stuff like that I don't Like me and Ben Obviously do it But I just I feel like we Are going to be Messaging it to the other A lot You're a professional I'm just obsessed I'm professionally obsessed Yes And have been for so so long Where did the professional obsession start and how?

5:15I think with like every kind of skincare influence, it's having terrible, terrible skin. What's considered bad skin, right? I think when we're 13, 14, we all kind of have acne. Back in those days in the 90s, you put on some terrible, terrible like medication for it that just dries you the f*** out. And that's all that, as long as it's gone, you're fine. But they don't tell you how to deal with everything after. So dark spots, really, really dry skin. So my obsession with skincare kind of happened just because I wanted to find out what could work for my skin. You know, what else, what other ingredient is going to be that miracle ingredient that was going to heal my skin and make it more even, make it less oily, et cetera, et cetera.

5:52And then from there, it was just. It's really interesting. That's exactly what Trini said, isn't it? Bad skin as a teenager, got obsessed with it. Nick Taylor, of course, 47 Skin, someone who grew up with bad skin. and it was a sort of a product that his grandmother sent him and it just transformed it in terms of it's what you're living with as a teenager that gets you into it. Joel and I are sort of slightly different or certainly my story just in terms of working in an industry where my skin was suddenly really important to the job just in terms of it sort of being under lights, being under heat and looking after it.

6:24And you suddenly realise, you know, with a few small steps, it makes such a difference. It's really rewarding. I think that's part of the obsession as well, is once you see the differences that skincare and a bit of makeup as well can make, it's like, oh, what can I do? What else? Like, what else can I do? What's the other new ingredient that's going to change this or do that? So, yeah, you do really get into it. You kind of want to educate yourself a lot more as well. So you review a lot of products. Yes. What do you, when you're reviewing a product, what are the sort of things you're going through?

6:56What's your red flags? What do you hate? What do you love? I think first, I think the reviewing process is so tough, first of all, because your skin has a cycle system that you kind of have to keep up with. So it's going to take time before you see results from certain products, right? So any actives really, cleansers, cleanse, toners will tone. But there's things like serums, treatment stages, chemical exfoliants. So I kind of had to work around, you know, trying to use one product at a time, which is why my content has kind of shifted more towards commentary on the industry. So I can't test these other products and give them a fair amount of time.

7:28But really it's knowing that I have rosacea. I have combination, maturing combination skin now. Now I'm going towards my 40s. I kind of have to know, I've spent a lot of time testing products so I know what works and what doesn't. So if there's anything that I don't recognize, anything that is maybe too new and a little bit gimmicky, I kind of let it slide. I kind of see what other people are thinking about at first. I don't rush into reviewing stuff anymore. I'm not in my 20s anymore. My skin doesn't recover like anymore. used to yeah um so i think nowadays especially as i go into my 40s i'm looking for reliable reliable products i don't care about the gimmicky ingredients anymore as fun as they are and as fun as they make content i want something that's reliable and has kind of stood the test of time yeah and how long do you give something when you do review it do you give it enough because enough time or do you know immediately whether something's going to work for your skin or whether it's awful or bad it's such a difficult thing to review skincare It is really difficult.

8:26I'm finding myself working a lot with the same brands nowadays. I've used their products. I've been using them for like five years. I know they work. With newer products, it's either a first impression or I have given it, depending on what it is, up to two months to see if it works for me. It takes a long time. It is worth it. And it's worth building that trust of your audience as well. It's such an important factor, the trust bit, isn't it? But also the market that we're looking at sort of want to make their decisions much quicker than two months. they ain't as patient as you. That's something that we're wrestling with.

8:57Well, I think just generally, the men's skincare market is, we're realizing more and more how different it is to the women's skincare market. And what men want is very different to women, but also a lot of men's skincare is bought by women for their husbands, for their boyfriends. And so it's trying to appeal to a lot of different people in this journey, I think. What's your take on the men's skincare range world it's really tough because i feel like there is a gap in the market i really feel there is are amazing brands like bulldog who do such a good job such a good job um but the amount of men's skincare that we see and even makeup for men i don't know a lot about makeup but i feel like everything's dumbed down for men and it really surprised me because we were literally talking about running before we started recording i don't run i don't do exercise but it baffles me because i feel like men like this kind of like optimization in their life i like um counting macros and weights or whatever happens yeah there's this kind of like um you know there's this whole quantitative drivers yeah and i don't know why that doesn't reflect in skincare whether it's because they can't track it like tracking their progress i think might be a great thing for them but i i mean it goes back to like advertising really you know always being directed to women but it just baffles me because i'm like why would you not want to like optimize your face.

10:17You know, you're doing it with your body. So important. So much time and effort into making yourself look great with the shirt off. Why are you not doing the head up? Why are you not doing the bicep curls for the cheekbone? Do you know what I mean? Is it because, is it because though, we're not talking about people that track macros, that go to the gym, really sort of put time and effort in, they will be looking after their face. Whereas the majority of men that aren't will still play football. They'll still want to run. They'll still be healthy. they'll play golf but that's not considered vain we had this conversation a lot vanity is this this this unfortunately it's become this thing that we certainly sorry i grew up with in the 80s 90s which is a real it was considered really bad you can't look after yourself you couldn't talk about your hair couldn't talk about your clothes all you make is endlessly take the mick out of you if you did because oh you're you know you're too fussy you're too vain whereas now we understand actually you're just looking after your health and well-being so if you look great in the morning you feel great you can go about your day and do the best job you could possibly do you can be the best dad you can be the best partner you can be the best at work because you've got a confidence about it yeah maybe there's the sort of so it's okay to play football to play rugby to play golf to run around and get hot sweat with your mates without having to sort of really drill down into the minutiae of it yeah i think like what you're saying about the instant results i feel like i think people automatically link instant results to makeup i think with the kind of innovation we've seen in skincare that's not so much the case anymore there are so many products that give kind of like this instant effect to your skin whilst working in the background to give you that effect long term is it too late to get out product

11:57i'm not sponsored by these brands i just this is lovely though this would be absolutely fine if you were i'm gonna show you this this is korean yes see this is what i want to talk to you about okay okay i'm so obsessed with korean skincare we do a lot with the amazing nadine bagger and she We cannot speak highly enough about the skincare coming out of, we love the bucket. It's so insane what's happening there. Yes, it's crazy. I mean, especially now, sorry, before I get this out, K-Beauty kind of used to be like this underground little secret, right? Like, what's Asia doing? They'd be like, oh, you know, Asia's secret to like good skin.

12:28And now because of TikTok, it has blown up. And that's kind of taken a weird turn. It used to be very much about like innovation and results driven. And now because of TikTok shop, it's very much like, what does this look like? Yes. What can we do to visually impress people before showing them the results? So it's all about textures now. Yeah. A few gimmicks here and there like this product here, which is an eye cream. Eye cream with the most possible patching to open. Yeah, yeah. Here we go. So. Oh, wow. Oh, hold on. It's like a syringe. It's made to look like a syringe. It's got nothing to do with injectables whatsoever.

12:59But this is an eye cream. And what I love about this one, we're talking about those instant results. And I know you've been talking about like a tinted under eye cream. Yeah, tinted eye, skincare, moisturizer or something. The thing is with those, because I don't know much about makeup at all, is I can either find it too orange or I can find it a little bit too pale. I can never seem to get the right kind of thing. This has ceramides in which are reflective. So when you put it on, you kind of get this immediate payoff of like a, it's almost like light reflects off the under eyes. So there's no colour in it whatsoever.

13:27Feel free to like pump it out and squeeze it. I love this. So you get this immediate payoff. Put it straight on your eye? I would put it on your finger first because it's quite rich and heavy. So only like a little bit. Might take a few pumps at first. Is it locked? It looks expensive, but it's K-Beauty, so it's affordable. That's great. Which is one of the reasons K-Beauty came so much. Totally. I mean, what's not to love about that? They've actually just changed the packaging now because everyone was like, a syringe, so they have changed it. That's fun. This is so cool. But you'll see like immediate lighting effects.

13:55That might be a bit much. Oh, dear. You might be alright. Is it lit up? It's a lot. Yeah, yeah. I have a mirror. Oh, that's good. This is great. Here we go. Oh, God, it's so grubby. i'm like fully in i'm i'm loving using retinols right now oh amazing so this is a tiny amount that's like safer under the eyes and the nad stuff is really big right now it is but it's kind of more like a gimmicky that's what i was gonna say does it work no not on top of the skin what is nad oh god i don't i don't know what it sounds like pdrn nad they're all kind of injectable treatments that are yeah that now brands are trying to say you get the same effect but it's not it's basically all plumping so you've got like a kind of like lighter kind of under eye yeah it does it's really like it's i need lighter under eye as well james i mean i'm struggling it's like joe likes to point out the only part of me is failing as my eyes it looks like almost you put concealer in the corner but you haven't without it being a color so yes i can see that it took my glasses now i can see it yeah so then you don't have to go into like color complexion which is a whole other like yeah that's really category in its own but That is, they've changed the packaging, but it's a fun sort of gimmicky, bigger packaging.

15:08I would say it also helps with dosaging as well, though, because you do one little squeeze and it comes out, which is often a problem with eye creams, retinols, any kind of product. It's nice to have packaging that is maybe a little bit fun, but also serves the purpose of like one squeeze is how much I need. For men, what would be the basics that you would recommend skincare-wise? So if you're going to do anything, it has to be a sunscreen. Nothing's worth it if you're not doing a sunscreen. You could have your whole routine put together. You could be using all the best scientifically proven stuff.

15:35But then if you start stepping out in the sun, pollution, anything like that, you're not using a sunscreen. It's just not worth it. There's no point. Especially after the age of like 25 up, I guess you can say where elastin collagen just isn't doing what it used to do. It's not producing as much as it used to and going out and it's just destroying it even further. So sunscreen for sure. Most sunscreens are like moisturizers nowadays. So you don't need the moisturizer. So, I have a really controversial one that a lot of experts don't like, and that is a toner. So, we're not talking exfoliating toners.

16:06We're talking about just... You're with me, here we go, same brand. Hydrating toners. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so this is... Because toners usually completely dry you out. Yes. So, we're used to growing up with astringent toners. Yes. So, they're like clean and clear. Clinique, you're a three-step system. And they are so alcohol heavy, and alcohol isn't always bad in skincare. But in those products they were, they were drying, they were packed full of chemical exfoliants without us even really knowing what they were at the time. And we were told to use them daily, which is insane, like absolutely insane.

16:36So the K-Beauty philosophy is kind of built around being gentle and hydrating your skin. So toners and essences, same brand, same kind of ceramide shiny technology just all over your face. But hydration can give such a nice immediate and long-term effect of temporary plumping out the skin for as long as you are using that toner. So fine lines, you're not going to see a huge difference, but fine lines can plump out. And your skin functions well when it's hydrated. And so what I struggle with with toners is where do I put that in my routine? Right after cleansing on dry skin. So it's almost like skincare prep for your skin.

17:13Right, right, right. So where I would classically use an exfoliant. Yes. I've just dribbled a little bit on the back of my hand and it does feel hydrating soft right yeah it's really soft yeah so then you get that all over your skin it helps soften your skin it helps give it that like dewy glow and shine that like k beauty is known for but a lot of people are after nowadays and it's just just well hydrated skin makes such a huge difference would you do because i obviously don't exfoliate every day uh i would do that like three days a week or something like that would you do this on the days off of the exfoliant every day i would do after exfoliant so if you're using chemical I will let that dry down.

17:51It's nice. It's nice. It feels like you're about to do a magic trick with two. Which hand is it? This one. Oh my God. Do you know what's really interesting actually? There's a K-Beauty technique called the seven skin method, but I do a four skin method, which... Well, it's perfect for us. I was going to send my mum this podcast. I might not. It sounds a bit... So that's four layers of toner, just very gently patted into the skin, just to extra boost the hydration in your skin. And there's another kind of trend at the moment called skin flooding, which is flooding your skin with hydration and the effects that people are having which is plumping out that skin reversing signs of aging because you're doing that is so good it's not a retinol but as long as you're using it it can really help with that hydration level of your skin and again we uh we had a fantastic guest on who was talking about um skincare and he was saying basically the only thing that definitely works for skin is a retinol and would that's something you would you 100 % yeah.

18:48So there are a lot of things that can help reduce the appearance of, which is what everything else does. Retinol is like scientifically proven. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thing is though, I can't use retinol because of my rosacea. Like it sends my skin off like off the charts. It goes so bad. So I rely on these kind of like temporary fixes almost to kind of like help give that appearance that I've been doing the most to my skin that I've been using like a retinoid for a long time um i did try tretinoa and it's just too much too much for my skin yeah so it's not for everyone but a lot of people use it very successfully again it's like you know it's just trying different stuff and then trying to figure it out and see whether it you know what works what doesn't it's everyone is very different very different so it's difficult to go like this is the best thing ever when it might not be the best thing ever because what we want we want to make the the brand accessible to people of all different skincare types yeah or skin types and interest in skin as well.

19:43I mean, I say you're very safe with your cleanse, moisturize, eye cream even, sunscreen, but I know it takes so long. Long time for sunscreen. Yeah, yeah. Most brands don't launch with a sunscreen unless they have that big conglomerate backing behind them. But yeah, with the basics, you're good. You're good to launch with that. Then everyone's kind of covered, I feel. What do you think then, James? Because there seems to be quite a lot of myths about skincare. What do you think are the most important myths to bust for people? I really hate the myth that natural is better. Okay. It's kind of, there's been so much innovation done in science in the skincare world to then think I'm just going to rub an avocado on my face for a day pisses me off because it's like your skin's so good at not letting stuff in.

20:26There's another myth that our skin absorbs 60 % of whatever we put on it, whatever. That's not true. We'd be a sponge, right? We wouldn't be able to shower. But there's this like appeal to nature fallacy, I believe it's called, where people presume because it's nature. It's bad. Your skin doesn't know. Your skin doesn't know if it's hyaluronic acid from a natural source or hyaluronic acid made in a lab. It's all going to work the same. But that's because the industry kind of lent towards this like clean beauty, kind of like, especially in the early 2000s where it was basically brands scaring you into thinking parabens were going to kill you.

20:57Sunscreen is going to kill your kids. You better use like a normal, you know, unhealthier version of a sunscreen. And I feel it does more damage than good, especially when we are talking about children. I think that's when And the sunscreen one bothers me so much because, as you probably know from making a brand, sunscreen is so heavily regulated. You can't just whip anything out and call it a day. So seeing these people using cow fat on their kids as an alternative to sunscreen is terrifying. So the natural is better terrifies me. I genuinely think it's dangerous. Oh, hello, I'm Simon Mayo. Oh, hello, I'm Mark Kermode.

21:31And coming up in this week's rather fabulous take. Reviews of The Devil Wears Prada 2, the horror movie Hocum and Surviving Earth, a film in which Harmonica features very importantly. Plus, our special guest is Steve Coogan, who's one of the stars of the new Netflix series Legends. You can hear from Steve and all the other glorious content on this week's take. Fabio Sementilli. Big heart, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche. He was like a wizard behind the chair. But killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out. There was rampant speculation about everything.

22:14But every wild theory was wrong. Because the truth was even more unbelievable. What? Is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing is a form of agony. From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, This is Cut, Color, Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut, Color, Kill is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad-free.

22:53Well, look, James, we need influencers. Yes. Yes, we do. These influencers, especially because if we're going to sell through TikTok shop, which has become such a massive marketplace for skincare. So how do we get makeup influencers, not just makeup influencers, but influencers full stop that review products to pick up our products, give it a go, and then sort of sell it to their followers and their following? There's so many routes you can go down. So I'll start with one that's probably not the easiest, but probably the most accessible is UGC Creators. UGC. Yes, they kind of just create an advert for you.

23:29So they're not necessarily an influencer known for their personality. People don't have that emotional attachment to them, but you can send them your product. They'll make you an advert. They don't have to pretend they've used it. They'll just introduce it, explain the texture, for example, say what the claims are. They'll send you an advert that you could basically use as you like, as you wish kind of thing. A lot of them do have their own terms and conditions, like you have a year's usage, that kind of stuff. But you're essentially paying for a more affordable influencer. Some of them are very good.

23:57Some are very good, I might charge a little bit more. Or you can then gift influencer stuff, which I think is something you'll have to do as a brand. Every brand is gifting nowadays and sit back and hope that someone picks up and reviews the product. What I would say massively helps with that is if a brand sends me a product and they've written me not so much a note, it doesn't mean like hand and written, but on a bit of paper saying, we know your videos. We know this is your take on like the skincare world. This is why we think you might like our products. I love just products in a padded envelope through the door with a little note, you know, not these huge PR kits.

24:32It's too much. It's too much. Something where you know it's been said, we were speaking to Will Best about this. He's got a drinks company. And something that feels a bit more personal, that I mean, you know, we get sent a bit of stuff all the time, bits and bobs. And so I really like to know, I think I know the difference between something that's been sent by a PR company or something that's been sent personally, and it really makes a difference. That little personal note that goes like, I really have not picked many people to sort of do that, but I really love you guys. And it just makes them feel accountable to post it also.

25:06Exactly. And it makes you think, oh, actually, this product might genuinely be beneficial for you, rather than it just being one of hundreds of products that comes through a week. Or you can pay influencers. Okay. And depending on who you pay, it can get very, very expensive. But I think nowadays, especially with TikTok and the way the TikTok algorithm works, they don't have to be the biggest, most followed influencer in order for that video to pick up traction. So you can, you get an influencer who's like 5 ,000 followers up to 1 million. And you could have more success with a person like 5 ,000 followers.

25:37It just depends their opening hook. Fourskin is a great opening hook, first of all. Well, that's why we've used it in the first place, right? Exactly. So it works marketing wise. It makes sense, right? It can get very expensive. And then, I hate to say this because I am an influencer, but there is that instant distrust with influencers too. Because I think people now know the influencer industry has become, especially on TikTok, because they don't have the ad sense that YouTube does. Yeah, so you can't just post and make money no matter what you say. On TikTok, they don't really have that. So you have to rely on sponsorship.

26:13So people are, I figured out in my comments, It's less willing to believe advertisements in TikTok than they are on YouTube. But it's part of everyday life now. People scroll through. If you have a following that really like you and really trust your opinion, yeah, it doesn't matter if it's sponsored. They're going to trust your opinion, which is the kind of influencer you want to go for. Okay. So that sort of influencer. And what about if Joel and I make a video, a TikTok video ourselves, which I'm sure we will do. I don't know if you saw the advert that Joel put together. So you're going to sense the tone of what it's going to be like.

26:48I get it. I like it. It's going to go good, I think. Yeah. What is the secret of making a great hooky TikTok advert or video that people clip that people are going to really engage in and share and sort of... The first thing you need is that hook. You need that kind of like, what the fuck moment? Like, what is that? And I think that's why a lot of brands are going for these textual shots now. You see a lot of people put product and they're like doing that as like slimy, which I personally hate because it has become more about how it looks rather than actual performance but you need that kind of like what the fuck is going on moment straight out i caught clickbait to educate so you kind of like draw them in clickbait a little bit with something a little bit misleading but then tell them what that was about and what the product is but it has to be quick and to the point because it's tiktok people are scrolling they really like smooth past immediately like the it's so insane the drop off compared to instagram for instance oh it's like three seconds isn't it or something it's crazy it's insane it's like I've got a friend who's a really incredible influencer he's so brilliant he's massive on Instagram he's actually got a load of followers on TikTok as well but he has to re-edit his videos for TikTok because the the attention span is so much so much quicker so he has to he gets really frustrated because he loves to like draw out the story and then have a really great big punchline but on TikTok what he does is he puts the punchline at the top and then so like he puts the punchline to understand yeah Yeah, so you have to put your joke first.

28:14I think it's really fascinating. This is really interesting. I think this is why I like, hopefully, what we've always wanted to sort of create is this great brand that really works and really makes sure that we get it right in terms of formulation and the products. But I just think we're approaching it with a bit of fun. And that is something that I think is really missing from the skincare industry. There's nothing that I really look at that like pokes a bit of fun at it all. And I can put up those adverts that I think is really interesting and funny and stupid and silly. But hopefully at some point or also tell them, I promise you this works.