Pop Idol's Nicki Chapman: How Her PR Genius MADE the Spice Girls

0:00When you come to something like the Spice Girls, the manager, I went out for dinner with the manager and he said, so tell me what you want. And I was like, what do you mean? What you really, really want. What do you want to work? Tell me what you want to work. What does the industry need? And I said, well, I've got this amazing boy band called Take That. We all know them. They're having huge success. I want a girl group that is the real deal. As exciting as Take That, but taking it to the next step. because there's some amazing girl groups around, but I want personalities, I want characters, as well as girls that can really deliver.

0:30And we had this whole conversation over dinner, and then he rings me six weeks later, Simon Fuller's his name, and he rings me and he says, I found them. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How To Fail here. My next guest is the award-winning investigative journalist and best-selling author acclaimed for his deep dives into subjects like The Troubles in Say Nothing and corporate power in Empire of Pain. Yes, it's Patrick Radden Keefe. We talk about families. We talk about the stories we tell ourselves and how to write them. And then there's this. The legal threats don't scare me. I will say I get a lot of those.

1:06The gangsters never threaten me in a kind of outright way. Listen to How to Fail wherever you get your podcasts. Hello there, Ben Shepard here. Still a lone wolf as my partner in crime. is sunning himself. Joel Domer is still over there dodging snakes in the Australian jungle. Nothing stops though when it comes to business. There's still tons to do and learn now. Before we go any further, just a bit of housekeeping at the top of the show. Do follow us wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe on YouTube. In today's episode, I'm very excited because we have the amazing Nikki Chapman coming in.

1:41She is a powerhouse in the world of public relations. Shape the careers of the lives of the Spice Girls. Take that Kylie Minogue, Amy Winehouse, to name a few. She's an expert in making brands successful. She's going to do everything she can to help us make our business fly. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How to Fail here. My next guest is the award-winning investigative journalist and best-selling author acclaimed for his deep dives into subjects like the troubles in Say Nothing and corporate power in Empire of Pain. Yes, it's Patrick Radden Keefe. We talk about families, we talk about the stories we tell ourselves and how to write them and then there's this the legal threats don't scare me i will say i get a lot of those the people the gangsters never threaten me in a in a kind of outright way listen to how to fail wherever you get your podcasts nikki thank you so much for joining me on the businessmen you're welcome it's an absolute thrill to have you here in the studio um we've known each other for many years we have in various disguises, all from when you were basically on telly rather than your previous life when you were certainly behind the scenes but pulling strings in the world of PR and particularly PR in the music industry in the 90s.

2:58I loved it. I absolutely loved it. It was such an exciting time. It wasn't something I knew I was going to do and I just sort of fell into the job and I took the most glamorous job in promotion. Which was? In promotion. Yes. So a record company, if you like, is made up of many parts, like a giant jigsaw, A &R that signs it, marketing, sales, but promotion is the final piece of the jigsaw. And if you don't get that right, the rest falls apart. So highly pressurised, but also great fun. Because you're the ones that are front and centre at trying to sell the products that's been worked on really, really hard.

3:36Exactly that. So how would you, So you start off in promotions. What were your first sort of forays in that world? So I started off as the secretary, the assistant in the promotion department. So you had press and you had promotion. And promotion was made up of TV and radio. And so I supported the people there. And they were called pluggers. Yes. Still called pluggers? I think so, yeah. I think they're still called pluggers. I mean, if you want to be posh, should we go publicist? Okay. But I was a plugger. Old school plugger. Always a plugger. And I sort of gravitated towards TV. So my job when I got promoted from being the assistant was to get my acts on television, to get them the right amount of exposure.

4:14Because if you're an established artist, you need everybody to know that your new album is out. And if you're a brand new artist, you need to be broken. And that's where I found my forte, breaking new artists. So who were some of the artists that you were breaking in the 90s? So the younger artists coming through would have been, oh my God, it makes it sound like I'm just name dropping now, doesn't it? It's your job. You're allowed. Okay. All right. Spice Girls. You're breaking the Spice Girls. Yeah. Take that. Charlotte Church, S Club, M People. I work Kylie, but she was already established. So lots of new artists coming through.

4:51And then I also work the more established and heritage acts. I worked David Bowie and Prince and Phil Collins, Van Morrison, Annie Lennox. It was an exciting time. And I love breaking new artists. I bet. When you come to something like the Spice Girls, the manager, I went out for dinner with the manager. And he said, so tell me what you want. And I was like, what do you mean? What you really, really want. What do you want to work? Tell me what you want to work. What does the industry need? And I said, well, I've got this amazing boy band called Take That. We all know them. They're having huge success.

5:21I want a girl group that is the real deal. as exciting as take that but taking it to the next step because there's some amazing girl groups around but I want personalities I want characters as well as girls that can really deliver and we had this whole conversation over dinner and then he rings me six weeks later Simon Fuller's his name and he rings me and he says I found them and I go who and he goes the girl group and I was like what girl group anyway when we had the dinner oh my god yeah and that was the difference he went off and did it i didn't he went off but not only did he do it i mean he smashed it amongst what was achieved by the spice girls yeah did you know when you first met them nikki that there was something special this what did they did they tap into that thing that you had spoken to simon about that dinner what happened was um they'd already been put together by somebody else yeah and they'd left him they'd walked out and they went to simon or simon found them and they came into the record label and I was like this and I had take that I had such a great roster at the time and I'm like all right come on then you know impress me I'm not gonna lie I was a little bit cynical were you they came in on rollerblades took over the whole room got up on the you know table you know one was doing backflips they were incredible and they sang to me and that was the difference was it it wasn't just the visual it wasn't just this huge power that came through the room they actually had the talent.

6:49And Jerry said to me, you know, we're not going to do this. If we work with you, we're not going to get up early. We're not going to be doing the big breakfast at whatever time in the morning. We don't want to do this. And I turned around and I said to her, you do what you're good at. I'll do what I'm good at. And we're always going to get along. And she went, we like you. Anyway, they left the record label and they went outside and they were talking to Simon and they said, we don't want to sign to RCA, but we really want to work with Nikki. and Simon said well you're lucky because Nikki's leaving RCA and she's going independent so she can work an act from any label that's how it works yeah she can work you so when I left the record label with my boss Nick and we had this company called Brilliant the first three acts we had were Take That, Annie Lennox and an unknown act called The Spice Girls.

7:34If you were to describe in one word PR in the 90s from the music perspective could you do it what would the word be? Oh what a great question and now I can't um I would say exciting but equally it was a necessity yeah because you didn't have social media when I went back and day-to-day managed the girls when they did their last tour together as a five piece I had to register the Spice Girls name because we didn't have it the first time around it's hard to believe now but you know the Spice Girls were having hit 25 years ago, Spice Girls, or Spice, was a porn site. We didn't even have the name.

8:13I had to go back years later and register it because it wasn't social media. Did you have to negotiate with the owners of Spice, the porn site, for... We changed the girl's name. It was Spice. They were originally called Spice? They were originally called Spice. They had to change it to Spice Girls because there was a rapper. And then when I actually registered the name, I had to register the Spice Girls. Because of this porn site? I don't know if it's still going. Someone's got to look it up, aren't they? They will be looking up right now. Yes, they are, yeah. It's amazing the nuances of that.

8:42One of the things we're going through with our business, and I'll come on to a bit, is the name. And we've had a couple of names that we've been kicking out and we really like. And then you go to see it and it's already something. It's already established somewhere else. And the advent of the internet has allowed us to look at those things really quickly now and actually rule things out. But back then, that wasn't the case, was it? No. Early 90s. No. So let's draw this back then to PR. in its purest sense, its most basic sense, how would you describe it? PR is the opportunity to get as much of the right exposure for your product as you can.

9:19And when I say product, that sounds really clinical, but it could be a person, it could be a TV show, it could be a radio show, it could be a moisturiser. So it's getting the right exposure. The right exposure to the right audience and expanding that as well. And how crucial is PR then if you are building a brand and ideally building a successful brand? Start with the brand first and then the PR will follow. Right. Okay. So the bit that you start, you have to get that bit right. Got to get that right. You're leading it. You're absolutely leading it. So, you know, obviously I specialize, I used to do West End shows and events and the Brits I did the PR for.

9:58So lots of different things, but you start off with the product and the product sounds awful. isn't it? Can't think of another word though. As a phrase for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I get what you're saying. It's the product. That's what it is. And then you build the PR around it, but it has to dictate it. You know, yes, there's going to be bands years ago where the PR came first and the talent came second. It's not going to live very well. No, they get found out. Yeah. I mean, you remember that from, you know, your past areas. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And you would, you'd have big PR about somebody rather than they'd come in there'd be the next big next big thing and they'd have a one album but it was the first of a five album deal and then it'd be gone be gone within within a few weeks i was lucky i was really really lucky and what happens is when you work in pr and you have success it breeds success so people then come to you yeah what what so how would you describe the difference between pr and marketing marketing is marketing the product looking at the artwork what goes into it the label copy, the legalities, all of that.

11:02I didn't do any of that. I was given the finished product and that's the difference with PR. But, you know, back in the day, if you worked at a record company, the marketing would be the video, the artwork. That's what marketing was for the music industry. It's probably changed a lot now, but probably the core values are the same. And then you would give me the finished product. So you would work with your marketing director, creative director coming up with a whole visual plan. You might be making an advert. That wouldn't come under me. Right. So everything would come under marketing. In that respect, I would take the finished products.

11:35And of course, I still like that brilliant thing that you said to Gerry in that first meeting with the Spice Girls. You do what you're brilliant at. Let me do what I do and we'll always get on. And look at the success that you were able to make of it. And can I just say they were a joy. I mean, there was a girl, you're talking about not making it. There was another girl who was in the band. There was a sixth member. There was five members and she left. I think she went to university. And so she was replaced by Emma Bunton. That's right. So can you imagine being that lady or that girl at the time who walked away?

12:02It's like the Beatles have the, yeah. And there was a lad in the year below us at school who was in a band at university. He went to Leeds and they tried and tried and tried for years and years and years and eventually went, lads, I'm going to have to leave because I've got to go and get a job. Went off and started doing a job. The next six months or so, they got a record contract. That band's called the Kaiser Chiefs. Ooh! I mean, you don't want to live with regrets. But there are those sliding door moments as well, Nicky, aren't there? So there will have been, and one of the things that's become really apparent, the really fantastic business people or PR people that we'd be meeting, talking about the mistakes that you make and actually how important those mistakes are for successes.

12:46Absolutely. What were some of the campaigns? Were there campaigns that you worked on that didn't work and you see now why they didn't work? A lot of it is luck. Right. Hitting stuff at the right time. And obviously things can go wrong. You can put out a single. For example, the Kylie album was called The Impossible Princess. And if my memory serves me right, it was released around the time Princess Diana was killed. So, you know, you can't foresee that. I mean, it's such a tragedy anyway. Of course. But all the media are going to be super sensitive about releasing anything with an album like that.

13:20They're not going to want to promote or talk about an album with a name like that. No, of course. So there are factors that are beyond your control. Totally. Which you can't necessarily see happening. And you have to be agile and nimble to those things. Yeah, it happens. Take that was knocked off number one by Mr. Blobby. I mean, you know, there we go. And there's going to be loads of people listening going, what's Mr. Blobby? But at the time it was devastating. There was a lot of us at the time saying, what is Mr. Blobby? And then also, you know, you've got to think of your conduct. You could be gearing up to release something and then something happens.

13:54Like you fall over in the press. That's the least of your worries. But do you know what I mean? Like artists can be unpredictable. Yes. And then that can be, and we see that in today's world. And I'm not going to give examples, but we all know, you know, there'll be massive shows. Could be Strictly, could be something else. And a media story breaks and everything gets a bit shaky. Do you think... So behave yourself. Joel. Joel, yeah. Joel's not here. He's in the jungle. Do you think there is a phrase, isn't there? And I don't know. I'm putting this to you sort of in a devil's advocate type way because of your experience.

14:30But there was always this phrase that there's no such thing as bad PR. I totally disagree with that. I've always struggled with it. But there are people that would turn around and go, look, at the moment in the world we live in, attention and focus is everything. That's key. That's actually all you want. I think, God bless Louis Walsh, and he'll have a view on this, but I think Louis likes that term. There's no such thing as bad publicity. For me, there is. And at the end of the day, it's the welfare. Again, I'm going to go back to music because that was what I did and West End shows and stuff like that.

15:02But you've got the welfare of the person. So, you know, if you make the front cover of, if you go back in the day, the news of the world or something, the front cover of the news of the world is brilliant if you've just won X Factor or Pop Idol, which was a show that I was a judge on. Let's take Pop Idol as an example. amazing if they're raking up your family's history your parents your brother your sister that isn't great it's not great for anybody nobody wins apart from perhaps they sell a few more papers and i like to think that the world has changed but that is awful and that publicity i do not agree with and people nowadays also overshare you know and if you overshare it's going to come back to bite you.

15:44Do you remember a campaign or a bit of PR that managed to spiral in a really positive way and was much bigger than you'd ever expected it to be? Was there a moment with any of your artists that kind of went, we never thought, that was serendipitously land in a really positive way? I mean, I'm going to go back to the Spice Girls and I worked so many different artists, but because of what they represented and what they believed in, and that message which was genuine that wasn't you know a load of people in a record company in a boardroom going okay what's the key message here guys okay that's brilliant girl power we'll do it it wasn't like that at all it was totally organic and it came from them i think if you want a message it'd be that because we're still talking about it yeah and it really resonates and it was groundbreaking at the time and there's a whole generation of young girls and young boys and you know be who you want to be be kind you know look after each other be transparent and girl power and girl power really goes for it it's all about equality isn't it being out there and doing what you want to do and not being judged and I think actually you've just sprung that question on but I would say out of all my artists because I looked after so many that probably is lasting it still resonates doesn't you're absolutely right because if that came about in the mid to late 90s you know those girls got together and then were launched, that is still quoted regularly in the media to this day by new young artists, by young actresses, by young people anywhere.

17:14I worked in the music industry. I started in the late 80s through the 90s. I saw it firsthand. So what I want to do is I want to talk you through a little bit through mine and Joel's business idea. Teach it to me. Well, we're pitching it to you and to get your sense about it and also to get some advice, because advice is what we're all about. And what I've come to understand and what Joel and I have talked about a lot is the value of a great skincare routine doesn't have to be super complicated. It doesn't have to be really faffy. We don't like fuss. We don't like tons of potions. We don't like all the really complicated bits and pieces.

17:46We just want something that's quick, that's simple, that's efficient, and that's effective. That means that when we sort ourselves out in the morning or in the evening, when we get up the next day, we're ready to go and we can go about our business and we go about our jobs, being the best person we can at work, being the best person we can at home, being the best dads that we can be as well. I mean, what does your, what does Dave do? What's his routine, your partner? My husband, he's really good actually with his skin and he does use SPF. I was about to say SPF, SPF, because I didn't use SPF. You didn't?

18:18Until recently, not in my moisturizers. This year, it's my first year. I always put suntan lotion on, but I didn't have it in my moisturizer. But he's always used SPF. He's always been, has he got? He's always had it in the products that he used actually, yeah. I don't think he's been so conscious of that, but it is in the product that he uses. And he's been using moisturiser for, I would say, quite a few years. Yeah. He looks after Iron Maiden. I mean, that's a hardcore heavy metal rock band. Yeah. Do we think the lads from Iron Maiden have good skincare routines? I think they do. They all look after themselves.

18:53I mean, Bruce is an amazing chef. If I looked at their wash bags, I reckon they do use moisturiser, you know. Well, I tell you what, the first thing we'll do once we get the range up and running we will make sure the Iron Maiden boys have a complete set. They can be sponsored by Joel and I. We'll be on the tour plane with them. I love that. Just go look after Eddie as well. Maybe his skin's gone. Eddie might need something else. If you don't know who Eddie is compared to Iron Maiden, do look him up because he is their mascot. Yeah. He's like the face of Iron Maiden, isn't he? And he's been with them.

19:28Very clever. You're talking about marketing. Very clever because Eddie hasn't aged. and there's different sort of forms of Eddie. But you've mentioned a band who have hero products around Iron Maiden. So Iron Maiden are super successful and have sold so many millions of albums over the years and even more touring and stuff. They're huge touring every single year. But what they have done is they have some hero products around Iron Maiden, and they have a beer called Trooper. Right, which is one of their big singles, right? One of the most famous, yeah. So if you go and buy an Iron Maiden beer, it doesn't say Iron Maiden.

20:04It says Trooper and it's got Eddie on the front. It doesn't actually have their image on the front. It's designed by Iron Maiden and it's brewed by one of the best breweries in the country, Robinson's. So it has that pedigree. But Trooper beer, since it's been launched, has sold something like 46 million bottles. Wow. Now, years ago, they were approached to say, you know, can we put out a wine? Can we put out a beer? Put your face on it. And the band were like, absolutely not. And Bruce is fanatical. If he's going to do anything, the rest of the band... There's Bruce Dickinson in the lead team.

20:33Bruce Dickinson. But all the band are like this. But Bruce in particular, he met the master brewer at Robinson's and said, okay, if we're going to do a beer, it's got to be right. And Robinson said, equally, if we do a beer, we don't just want Iron Maiden fans buying it. We want it sort of much broader than that. And when he sat down, Bruce had to audition. So he didn't audition to be an Iron Maiden, but he had to audition in front of the master brewer about a beer that they had this idea on. And at the end of the day, the master brewer said, my goodness, you really know your stuff. Because he was doing blind tasting, saying, no, that's a this and that's a that and that.

21:08Amazing. So it has to be the best possible product. And I'm using this as an example for the two of you. Yes, of course. It has to have authenticity. It's got to be transparent. You have to totally believe in it. But you have to buy into it because it's yours. So with Maiden, they have this troupe of beer and they've now got different beers. You know, they've got seven different varieties around the rest of the world. It's stocked in over 40 countries around the world. You know, they had a campaign going where Iron Maiden fans could say if it was in their local supermarket or not. You know, really bought into it.

21:42So the Iron Maiden community bought into it. But it has to stand up for them. But it's also got to stand up to anybody else who likes Trooper Beer. And that's what you've got to do. you've got like one and a half million Instagram followers between something like that. I don't have it on Facebook, but that's a lot. But you don't just want that to be your core market. You want to broaden it much wider. That's a really good point, isn't it? Because the product and the brand that we want to create, we don't just want to be for people that follow us necessarily. We want it to be people who are looking for a really fantastic skincare product and this is the one that they go for.

22:19They might not even know that Joel and I helped create it. Yeah, I mean, you're a good start. You're not bad looking, either of you. You know, you could work on that a little bit more. But yet you want the product like Maiden did with Trooper and being a hero product. You want that. It's so important and you have to be authentic. And that beer now exists away from the band. There'll be people, I'm sure. Don't even know it's part of Iron Maid. But just love the taste of this troupe of beer. Exactly. Millions and millions of bottles. 46 million. Because it tastes great. But it is what it is. It's a bottle of beer.

22:51It's nothing more. The price point reflects that. Yeah. It's a great bottle of beer. Maybe me and Joel need to do beer at all. We'll come on to the beer. Okay, we'll try that. So look, let's talk PR then, and the PR with our new business. what would be could that community that you've talked about with iron maiden that's been so fundamental to the launch and the success of trooper beer is exactly what we're looking to do with the podcast with the skincare brand we want to create a community of men and boys and and young men who are interested in coming on this journey with us we want them to help guide us as to what sort of products it is they're looking for what are the stuff that they think they're not being served, what's the price point going to be?

23:33What are the important factors that are going to lead them to the shops to go, yes, that's exactly what I'm interested in using. And we want that community to build. So then you have advocates for the business when eventually we come to market. So what would be your PR suggestions in terms of us building that community and building the awareness of what we're doing with the businessmen and what we're going to do with this skincare brand? I think it'd be good to have PR, independent PR, as well as social media. Social media will be so important for you. I mean, that's certainly where we are at the minute.

24:05Yeah, because you're doing a survey, aren't you? Asking people, which is a great way because also there's ownership there. It is a great way. But what we're struggling with though, Nikki, is getting men to actually commit to doing the survey. We actually thought, oh, they'd love to. You suddenly realised actually men can be quite reticent to click online and do surveys. Give them an incentive. give them an incentive. Say, we're going to pick 50 people who are going to, you know, if you do the survey, we're going to pick 50 people and we're going to send you a goodie bag to say thank you. In that goodie bag are going to be some of our competitors.

24:40So as a sideline, we want you to rate what you like and you don't like on the packaging, on the product. I mean, you can't do it over a week because anyone dealing with skincare, I don't know what it is, but it's probably going to be, I don't know, 12 weeks before you see any results. So it depends on your timeline, but you could do something like that. But make it exciting because everybody's busy. And why should they help you? You guys have got successful businesses. You're on TV, can't get you off TV. Give some of us a chance. Make people feel like they are part of that journey. And it's a great way of doing it.

25:15Don't get me wrong. I think it's a brilliant way of doing it, but you've got to get people engaged. And also, people will look at you too and go, they don't need it. Look at them. They're gorgeous. You're not going to say yes, but you are. And so is Joel. Less so, Joel. Sorry, Joel. No, say that again. You know, you're gorgeous. So, you know, you want people to want to try a product, not buy into it, because that's too much of a gimmick. They're going to want to improve the way they live their life without being preachy. What are your top three don'ts when it comes to PR, Nikki? the way you conduct yourself is huge.

25:56So although I'm not going to say don't, I'm going to turn it into a do. Right, okay. Because make sure that you represent your product, the way you live your life and everything, because that's what you're putting up there. You're asking people to pay money. Turning on the TV is easy. Actually asking someone to go into a supermarket and buy your product is something else. Don't put something out there that you're not proud of. Don't put something out there that you haven't tried. And if you've got to try it, you've got to try it for weeks and weeks and weeks. Oh, we live it, yeah. You have to.