Skincare Expert Caroline Hirons: Not Everyone Is A Fan Of You

11:51Joel Dommett:I think we both knew that.

11:53Ben Shephard:Yeah.

11:53Joel Dommett:I certainly did.

11:55Ben Shephard:I don't know why I've given to this whole experience. I really want Joel to win, Ben, because he hasn't won one challenge yet. How many did I get? One. I think you got a good chance.

12:07Joel Dommett:Well, what do you mean you think he's got a good chance? Don't you even rig this already? What do you mean you got a good chance? Honestly, I knew nothing about this whole thing

12:14Ben Shephard:before I got into this studio. It was pretty good. Okay, are we ready? Go on. Go. Oh, my God.

12:22Joel Dommett:Oh, he's passed the first one, which was...

12:25Ben Shephard:Functional. I'll pass that one as well. Oh, no, you can only pass two. And he's passed Reliable.

12:30Joel Dommett:okay let's see where he is now he still hasn't drawn anything still not drawing anything uh still struggling to draw he's rubbing his eye and i feel like he's giving up he got one but he's looking stronger

12:45Joel Dommett:oh joe should i help no way of how don't just just try absolutely no way of drawing this one that's a hang on hang on is it space is it space no it's not fun i'm just trying to guess now

12:59Ben Shephard:Pound sign, pound sign, pound sign, pound sign Money Affordable Expense, premium Yes, premium Go, go, go, go, go, go

13:08Joel Dommett:Oh, here's another one So you want a pound sign with an arrow There's a box with a man in it Lift, elevator

13:15Ben Shephard:Elevate Elevated I think you get that He said elevator So one each See, that's good I think you should get that I mean, thank you for your help on the premium You were struggling. I would have just stood there for a minute. I'm there for you, buddy. So, ladies and gentlemen, we are now in a round of Sudden Death, which, shock, is the same round as before. Usually, Sudden Death has some sort of different format. Not this one. Not this one. Not this one. It's exactly the same. Here we go. One card been picked out by an incredible producer. Ben, are we ready? He's ready. Good.

13:54Joel Dommett:Go. Oh, we're good. Right, OK. woman

13:59Ben Shephard:he's been drawn a lady with maybe hair is that a witch eyes he's drawn glasses he's drawn shoes maybe clogs of some sort fashion he's drawn arms fashion fashionista catwalk model charades which is an entirely different game dress clothes he's drawn the title premium premium he's got it he's now gone luxury back to luxurious elegant he's got it he's got it he's got it

14:35Joel Dommett:I'm starting to sweat

14:36Ben Shephard:wow that's again you're actually good at this though but that's a ridiculously difficult word to get and you know what helps the whole experience my dance degree that was got and 40 seconds 40 seconds

14:54Joel Dommett:good luck Dominic Remember to start when you hear the clock.

14:58Ben Shephard:Yes.

15:00Joel Dommett:Okay, he's drawing a big circle.

15:02Ben Shephard:Oh, it's a face. It's a face.

15:04Joel Dommett:Spots. Arrows pointing at his cheekbones. Cheekbone. The side of the face. He's got two very small eyes. Chiseled. A round head. How have you drawn it so round? He's got a big smiley face. So, hang on. Cheek. He's now lying under the... Cheeks. Cheeky.

15:21Ben Shephard:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes! 20 seconds. 20 seconds. Well done. Well done. I feel like... Both of us, it really helped when we did some sort of... Mime.

15:34Joel Dommett:Yeah, you'll see the interpretation of Cheeky as the... Cheeky's up! This guy. This guy as he weebles from side to side with his hands up. That's a cheeky guy. That's cheeky.

15:48Ben Shephard:Sabrina. Corinne. I have been listening to a new show from The Binge called Fatal Fantasy. I am obsessed. Wait, I need to know more. Tell me. Tell me everything. I will. It's very shocking. It's this like ultra weird crime story of a murder for hire plot that, wait for it, leveraged the dynamics of the underworld and underworld being a medieval fantasy game. Wait, so it's live action role playing gone wrong? Horribly wrong. And you can binge all episodes now. Oh my god, that sounds so good. I know what I'm doing on my drive home today. Search for Fatal Fantasy and subscribe to the Binge Podcast channel on Apple Podcasts or at getthebinge.com.

16:29Ben Shephard:And then once you're done, you can listen to one of the over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts a part of the channel while you wait for the next month's drop. I really need to know what happens. Selfishly, you do so that we can talk about it. So whenever you listen, search for Fatal Fantasy and hit subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes all at once ad free.

16:51Joel Dommett:That puts now an extra 50 surveys. That puts me on 2008 and you on 2013. Oh, my God.

16:59Ben Shephard:It's just so fun, isn't it? Life. Like, you know, like life when you just you don't you never know the way it's going to go. And something I never foresaw for myself was being in a windowless room playing Pictionary with Ben Shepard. Are you ready for our guest then? I'm very ready for our guest. Caroline. Yes, sir. Thank you so much for being here. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I feel like your expertise, not just in business, but in skincare is going to be invaluable to us.

17:32Caroline Hirons:I don't know if you might see it that way, but we'll see. We'll soon find out.

17:35Joel Dommett:can you explain to anybody who might be listening Caroline a little bit about your journey into the world of skincare because I've seen you described as the queen of skincare like amongst other things but just in terms of the credibility and your respect within the industry is you know off the

17:57Caroline Hirons:scale but it didn't start there obviously well I started in the beauty industry just under 30 years ago um i started on the shop floor in harvey nichols worked my way up went to space nk worked for lots of brands and then started long story short started consulting mid-2000s ish and started the blog in 2010 and then the blog was the trajectory that kind of put me here but i'm i'm in the industry i've worked in the industry my most of my whole adult life um i'm a fully qualified facialist you know insured i can go around the world and touch people and if they suddenly every reaction I don't get sued so that's nice it's a relief um and yeah so now I'm at the point where I'm on the lots of boards I'm and I'm an ambassador for the British Beauty Council and the aesthetics arm um on the board of CW which is Cosmetic Executive Women so I'm very much entrenched in the industry it's my entire life is the industry my family and my industry which

18:54Ben Shephard:I don't even see as work it's just what I do and you must have seen the skincare industry change hugely over that time I assume it feels like it's so massive now like the fact you know you talk about Space NK the fact they've got a new space that's like two doors down from Oxford Circus you know Sephora's just popping up all over the place um boots are getting bigger and bigger it's crazy like what do you think is the sort of main thing that's changed over that time science social

19:21Caroline Hirons:media lockdown COVID helped a lot with skincare awareness because people skincare sales boomed in lockdown because people are at home on zoom looking at their faces yeah that's interesting and so skincare sales boomed 20 20 21 22 and then makeup sales kind of you know were still there but for the first time skincare started overtaking which it had never done before well it's interesting

19:42Ben Shephard:because it feels like the world is now going through what we've gone through in our entire careers because we've essentially you know being on this morning is like constantly being on a massive zoom that goes out to a million people every day so it's like yeah we have a level of insecurity, I think. I'm speaking for myself, not necessarily. No, no, no, I'd agree. But maybe other people don't have. And I think this sort of feeds into why we want to start this business in the first place. We sort of had to care for ourselves in a way that maybe other men haven't had to think about. No, they don't think about it.

20:13Ben Shephard:Let's be honest. Yeah. I'm really interested to get your take on it.

20:17Caroline Hirons:The majority, obviously it's a sweeping

20:18Ben Shephard:generalisation, but the majority of straight men don't really think about their skincare. And do you think that's changing? Not really. Do you not?

20:27Caroline Hirons:Maybe. The gays help you a lot.

20:30Ben Shephard:Yeah.

20:30Caroline Hirons:The gays always come through.

20:32Ben Shephard:Absolutely.

20:33Caroline Hirons:I think it's just, I still speak predominantly to women who are buying for partners. Gym culture helps.

20:39Ben Shephard:Yes.

20:39Caroline Hirons:Gym culture has helped because obviously gym culture has only really become a thing in recent years, like in the recent decade. I'm new to probably in the gym all day, every day. You look like you are. I hate you. But gym culture has helped because you have to shower. You see other men taking care of their skin and that kind of has a knock-on effect. So that helps.

20:55Ben Shephard:Yeah, for sure.

20:56Caroline Hirons:It's not just about a shower gel in the shower and that's the only one product you need, which it was forever. Yeah, exactly.

21:01Ben Shephard:Exactly. Caroline, you started Skin Rocks in 2022. Is that right?

21:06Caroline Hirons:Well, we launched the app in the summer of 2022 and the product in November of 2022.

21:11Joel Dommett:Great, great. So it's taken you... It's huge. I mean, amazingly, with your vast experience, your decades of experience, it's taken you all that long to actually want to launch your own range.

21:21Caroline Hirons:That and also financially. Okay. Because I didn't want to get investors when we first started. I just wanted to do it myself. And I funded it myself through the kit. So I have two businesses. I have CH, which is me, which is me, my books, my pods. You know, just me, as I'm sure you have. You sell your likeness. And the kits. So I make skincare kits. And we've done those for six years now. Seven years, I think we're coming in too. And so the kits funded Skin Rocks. And we only got investment last Easter. Wow. Yeah, I'd funded the whole thing. That's unbelievable.

21:53Ben Shephard:but you're benefiting from it now we were talking about she doesn't look tired she's got great skin care incredible skin you also don't look like you've got children that are 34 years old it's blown my mind whatever you're doing Caroline it is working it rocks it rocks we'll have that

22:08Caroline Hirons:we'll have that

22:10Ben Shephard:it's fascinating I spoke to my wife that we were speaking to you and my wife is loves skin care so much again it's sort of filtered into why we're here in the first place, really. I just loved using her products and everything. And I just felt like there was nothing really for me. And so I sort of got more into it and started enjoying the routines more and more. And I love your app. I think it's really great. I think it sets it out in a way that is needed because it can feel like an absolute minefield out there, even for women, but for men, it's just an absolute, just having that list of things of like, this is what you need to do in the AM, this is what you do in the PM, this, this, this, cleanser, tick off.

22:57Ben Shephard:This is what you need, this is what you don't need. Yes.

22:58Caroline Hirons:Ignore this trend. Well, ignore all trends really, but.

23:01Ben Shephard:Absolutely.

23:02Joel Dommett:What led you to setting up your skincare range then?

23:06Caroline Hirons:I just got to the point where I was consulting for brands and making, between the blog and my social media and Instagram and consulting for brands, I was making brands a lot of money using my business acumen. And I was just like, well, you've got your own family to pay for. What about your kids' education and your grandkids' education? And, you know, what about your own family? So it really was a bit of a business decision. And it just seemed like a logical next step. Because, you know, it's almost like piss will get off the pot. You know, it's all good and mild talking about it. But if you're not in it, you're going to be talking about it.

23:37Joel Dommett:Had you had opportunities previously to sort of set something up?

23:40Caroline Hirons:But it was always with other people and like minority shareholding. And I was just like, nah, I'm not going to give you my name because I know what you're going to make. No chance.

23:47Ben Shephard:that's so interesting so it's a real sort of um it was a real sort of step off the cliff really for you in a way that like you're like okay this is this is in for a penny yeah you you're going

23:58Caroline Hirons:in and it has to work essentially and you know the brief was always i knew exactly what i wanted to do everything was clinically trialed everything is the highest quality you can get um everything is devised with facialists in mind because i am one so if i wouldn't use it on someone else's skin in a facial, I won't release it. If it's not something that I would reach for, you know, because I've obviously had a vast array of products over the years and products I love. But if I would rather reach for that than this product, I'm not going to release this product. If I can only reuse my product, then I'm fine.

24:27Caroline Hirons:I still use everything. I still help promote all my friends' brands. I love the industry. I live and breathe the industry. But I have to, you know, look in the mirror and look at my viewers and readers and customers and say, this is the best you can buy that I make and I believe in it.

24:42Ben Shephard:I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago and you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handel's Story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use, but there is a A lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story.

25:20Ben Shephard:It's very unique. And you did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen. And subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad-free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. And what was the thing that you saw as sort of a gap in the market for you? And this is the right time for me and your brand.

25:56Ben Shephard:It was just time.

25:57Caroline Hirons:It was just time. I could afford it. My profile grew a lot during lockdown because I'd go live at five every night on Instagram and it became a thing. And, you know, my most viewed Instagram was like 10 ,000 people when we put the kits on sale and the website crashed. So I had to go on Instagram and be like, guys, you've broken me. We'll come back at six. This is like in the morning. I was like, we'll come back at 6 p.m. We're going to fix the site. We'll do what we can. And then we sold out in like three minutes. It was insane. You know, so I just, you just have to start. We just got to the point where we're like, right, we need to start hiring people.

26:27Caroline Hirons:And that was like nearly 60 people ago.

26:29Ben Shephard:Was there a particular product in the range that sort of suddenly went for it? Was it the kits that still do well?

26:36Caroline Hirons:The kits still do well, but in terms of us, we've had a couple of, we've got no duds. There's nothing we're deleting from the range. You know, everything we've released has done well. The best launch we've had is the hyperpigmentation serum because we had brilliant before and afters.

26:50Joel Dommett:Yeah.

26:51Caroline Hirons:The before and afters were insane.

26:52Joel Dommett:We love a before and after, don't we?

26:53Caroline Hirons:Yeah, they were insane. Like it's the kind of thing that if you put it on this morning, we would sell out. It's that kind of thing. You know, people just see the picture because it's proof, right? I can say anything, but most people would be like, yeah but she owns a brand she's going to say that but if you do third party clinical trials clinical study clinical testing for months and they come back with this result you're just like

27:12Ben Shephard:like mental so you have to make things work and they have to work product yeah you know the public

27:17Caroline Hirons:will i'm interested i could interview you guys i could turn it around and do my pod and just start interviewing you because i'm interested to to see because you'll have you'll have your launch because people know who you are but the they don't give a shit at the end of the day if it doesn't work they're not coming back for round two so it has to work if it doesn't work you're not going to be taken seriously by our industry and we can we can smell you miles away like brad pitt had no chance yeah you know brad pitt releasing his fucking archon even no his hundreds of pounds serum and during the first interview like get some media training don't be so arrogant he sits down and they're like so what do you use anyway well you know i hardly even shower done you're done like killed his own brand with his first interview I think it's a real sort of we shower a lot

28:01Ben Shephard:just so you know

28:02Caroline Hirons:you look like you're showering boys it's all good don't worry

28:05Joel Dommett:sometimes together sometimes together keep it fresh one of our products could well be a a shower performing shower gel of some sort 100 % yeah 100 % it's we'd say

28:17Ben Shephard:we'll get to the name

28:18Joel Dommett:in a minute okay great I think one of the things that I think is really really compelling about listening to you talk is you clearly don't suffer fools, Karen. You know your onions and you're happy to share it and say it. And I think in the world of beauty, in the world of everyone looking after each other, that's pretty refreshing and unusual. Is myth-busting fair or that sort of straight talking has become an important part of who you are and your brand as well? I think it's expected.

28:44Caroline Hirons:I think it's, oh yeah, I think it's expected. People know that I'll never do any marketing bullshit. There'll never be any marketing nonsense. I'm never going to call things, you know, we have the eye cream, the moisturizer, the rich moisturizer, the light moisturizer, the antioxidant, the hyperpigmentation serum. Like it's, it is what it is. I'm not doing like a blue wave intensity, you know, it's just, I can't, if I don't have the patience for it, why would I expect the people who follow me to have the patience for it? It has to just do what it says.

29:07Joel Dommett:That's key. It can be simple and work, essentially. The Ronseal test is what Pete was talking about, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ultimately. What do you think has been the biggest setback, Caroline? um not running a tight ship with a p &l p &l profit loss i thought it was a cruise yeah p &o

29:27Caroline Hirons:not saving taxes and thinking oh i can have that money for the taxes when we launch this so for now i'm going to put more money into doing this just being a bit free and easy when i if i'd have been tighter if i'd run a tighter ship i may not have even needed investment but i don't care because it's not how much money can you make how much money can you spend you know as long as i'm okay my kids are okay I'm happy I'm not here to make like an 800 million dollar sale or whatever it is what it is you know and that's never been the end goal for us when we were looking for investment all of the people we met with 90 % of which we hated people say things to you when you're a woman that they would never say to a man do you want to fly over the table and take them apart like at one point that's a mortal combat I just vividly remember going would you ask me that question if I had a penis and they looked really shocked and I'm like who the fuck do you think you're talking to is what you want to say do you realise what we've done with brands over the years.

30:14Caroline Hirons:You don't even know my business. You're just someone who made money. So you're good at making money. Well done you, but you don't know anything about this industry. It was just, it was utterly bizarre. The whole process was bizarre.

30:24Joel Dommett:So finding the investors that got you and understood what you were doing was really important.

30:30Caroline Hirons:Yeah, the brief was we don't want to kill them. And anything above that was okay.

30:36Joel Dommett:Can we, can I ask how much money you were, I mean, I don't know whether it's on public record, but can I ask how much you were looking for investment? We raised five. Okay. And has 5 million been enough?

30:45Caroline Hirons:No, we should have gone more, I think.

30:47Joel Dommett:Right.

30:48Caroline Hirons:But it is what it is. They all sort of like get into this flurry of, because all they're thinking is the end goal. I'm thinking about now. And that's why I started to say, so when we would go to these meetings, they're going, who would you want to sell to? Have you thought about who you want to sell to? And we'd never had that conversation. We'd never had that conversation of like, and down the road, we'll sell or we'll do this. You know, now we joke and go, well, when we own an island, but we don't even think of it in real terms because we're very much, we're so embedded in what we're doing day to day with our team that it's never occurred to us you know we talked about briefly but do you think

31:18Ben Shephard:the men's skincare side of things is a growing industry you said maybe not but do you think it's it's worth spending time on would you sort of go that way and start something that's a more sort of

31:32Caroline Hirons:male focused well my product is all unisex yeah and that's why it's bright colors that's why i is the cleanser and I did that tactically because pink is the best-selling colour in beauty and cleanser is the first inroad it's the first product people go because it's the cheapest so I made the cheapest product pink get them in hook them in and so that's why that's pink but the other colours you would say aren't you know but it's also quite it's bright it's quite a it's quite a male pink can I say that yeah yeah it's a good thing it's not it's not girly pink it's not

32:04Ben Shephard:like a soft pink it's pink yeah I like your um it's pink it's fuck you pink yeah it is it's a Pinking, rocking pink. It does feel like that way.

32:16Caroline Hirons:I think you've got a market for it if you keep it simple and remember that ultimately at their core, and again, I'm generalising talking about straight men, straight white men in particular are my forte. I gave birth to three of them. Are lazy.

32:30Ben Shephard:Yeah.

32:31Caroline Hirons:At their core, it's unusual if a man wants to take really good care of his skin and he really cares. Like, you know, I don't see anyone I know dating anyone, wanting to date anyone who takes longer to get ready than they do. It's just the way it is. And men are lazy. The whole thing about, if you think about shoe shops, how they used to be, until people used to consider the pram brigade, which are the people with the money who are going out shopping with their kids in a pram, all shoe shops had men's shoes on the ground floor because men won't walk, men won't go up or down the stairs. They're too lazy.

32:57Caroline Hirons:So all men's shoe shops are the longest period. And sometimes even now, men's shoes are on the ground floor to get the men in.

33:02Joel Dommett:So the men come in and the women will go up and down.

33:04Caroline Hirons:Women will go anywhere, but they can't do it with a buggy. So if you haven't got a lift now, you have to have women's and kids It's more, you know, equidistant.

33:12Joel Dommett:Well, some of the interesting, some of the information that we've gleaned already from the nearly 5 ,000 people who've done the survey, which has been amazing, is exactly like you say, men, I won't use the phrase lazy, but we like things to be efficient. And quick. So we want products that do more than one thing and work hard and are easy to use. It's got to be simple, it's got to be high performing, and it's got to be efficient. Almost everyone tells us that they just want to be told what to use.

33:38Caroline Hirons:That's what everyone tells me.

33:40Ben Shephard:That's all people want. Tell them what to do. Yeah. And they just want a list and like, okay, cool. And also, like you say, they want something that works. Proof of purchase. And looks nice.

33:50Caroline Hirons:People do want something that looks nice. But it's not the first thing they think about. But they're not going to buy something that isn't boy colors. And that's just the sad reality. You've got to think about your laziest customer. And will it be easy for them? And if you can take care of them, you're done.

34:06Joel Dommett:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. they still care about looking looking good and looking sharp but they don't want to have to sort of make a load of fuss about it just like you said do you know what I tried Joel and Ben's it's actually quite good

34:19Ben Shephard:that's what we need repeat customers everything because we all know as well skincare doesn't work overnight it needs time but people do make

34:29Caroline Hirons:generally I find most people especially men will make a decision on the first use

34:34Ben Shephard:so So what do you think factors into that decision?

34:39Caroline Hirons:Texture.

34:40Ben Shephard:Texture is, do you think that's the biggest thing?

34:42Caroline Hirons:Can't be sticky, has to absorb really easily so they don't have to make too much effort. Because if you watch men applying for products, so if you watch women, they'll go dum-dum-dum and then they'll prepare it.

34:50Ben Shephard:Yeah.

34:51Caroline Hirons:And then they'll, you know, men go.

34:55Ben Shephard:Yeah.

34:55Caroline Hirons:Or a little bit of a rub if you're lucky. Like I watched some even male skincare influencers and I'm like, oh, stop.

35:03Ben Shephard:Yeah, too vigorous.

35:05Caroline Hirons:But men want ease and they expect what they're putting on their face to just disappear. So, you know, it needs to be light. Are you going to do fragrance or fragrance-free?

35:13Joel Dommett:At the minute, I think it's fragrance-free. It's fragrance-free. I think it's for men. Definitely safer. Especially if you shave.

35:18Caroline Hirons:You've got shavers.

35:20Joel Dommett:A couple of the products that we're looking at that have come back from the survey, sort of a tinted moisturizer of some sort. Again, the really important things that have come back, the texture, lightweight cream, no visible color. no glitter

35:36Caroline Hirons:no shimmer you'd be surprised if you asked for a tinted moisturiser you'll get it back and you'll be like Jesus we're not in a circus totally

35:41Joel Dommett:so it's got to be sort of a natural skin finish so it's not matte or shine it's just got to look like you're sitting on your skin

35:51Joel Dommett:reduces redness and reduces some of those issues that we all have improves your skin tone but also gives you a little bit of warmth because this is something that I've massively I have a very pale skin and under lights in a studio you can go even more pale and I've got a fabulous makeup artist Justin Jenkins and you may know JJ and she's always said to me she used to work with Ronnie Barker and he'd finished years ago and he'd finished doing makeup and then he'd go now then JJ make me look expensive and she'd put the bronzer on him and she said there's a thing that's really important is you understand that a little bit of warmth makes a massive difference so that's one of the products and again it's a moisturizer but it also brings a little bit tint in it with a little bit of moisture and giving them the confidence

36:31Ben Shephard:to use that product I think that's the key with it too, because I was so scared to use a tinted moisturizer for so long. Because you're worried it might make you go orange or whatever. I just feel like there's never been one factor towards me. There's never been one aimed at me.

36:45Caroline Hirons:Men certainly would prefer something more mattifying than women do, for sure. You probably want something that adapts to the person's skin, because once you go down the tinted moisturizer road, you're looking at all these different colors. So unless it's a universal color that has a bit of tint that can go with anyone, because it's always going to cost you a fortune. Then you're into the color market, which is ridiculous. So you probably need something that's more adaptive. So when you put it on, it sort of breaks down and then it turns into the color of your skin, but it gives you a bit of a kick.

37:12Caroline Hirons:So you just look a bit healthier.

37:14Joel Dommett:Okay, that's interesting. I think one of the creams, and Joel introduced me to an eye cream, amazing eye cream, that actually I've now passed on to so many people. But I think, you know, I wear my tiredness and my age, particularly around my eyes. It's something that I'm very, very conscious now. So finding an eye cream that reduces lines, that tightens skin, I think it's the thing that has been most compelling that I've given to other men that they've gone, oh my goodness me, that is incredible. I'd love to give you mine.

37:43Caroline Hirons:Yeah, yeah, I'd love to try it.

37:44Ben Shephard:I'd love to try it. Are you ready for this, Caroline? Well, it's going to be fantastic. We've got Joel and Ben for Skin, so we're going to have our skin regime, and then we're going to have our eye cream, which is going to be called Joel and Ben for Eyes. And then we've just talked about this morning, the fact that we're going to release a candle range for fun called, and this could be Four Candles. We're just having a bit of fun, Caroline.

38:05Joel Dommett:And the post-workout body wash is Joel and Ben for play.

38:11Ben Shephard:So we started with the name and then we've gone from there. That's essentially what's happened. Four Candles.

38:17Caroline Hirons:Exactly, exactly. You get it. Of course. You get it. I don't know if the younger Gen Zs will get it, but... It doesn't matter. Anyone else at our age will get it.

38:24Joel Dommett:But you get the point is, I think, you know, the Gen Zs necessarily, we aren't looking at them for skin. Which is good. I wouldn't. I think they will come to us eventually. I'd do millennial and above. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So eye cream sits well under SPF or alone. Which, of course, because at the minute, as you've already described, trying to get an SPF of any sort is really complicated because of the restrictions.

38:47Caroline Hirons:Trying to make one, isn't it? Yes.

38:48Ben Shephard:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, I found that a lot of men use SPF 30 instead of 50, which is obviously quicker to make. But that's not the point. It's like I do. And I don't know. We had a real big discussion the other day about why do we use 30? Why do we use 30? Why do you use 30?

39:04Caroline Hirons:I don't know. Because you're slightly ginge, aren't you? There's a bit of ginge in there. Stop it, Caroline. How dare you? You are. Revealing my biggest secrets. So you are. Yeah, I've got something in there.

39:13Ben Shephard:Yeah, you're a bit ginge. So you should be on a 50, babe. My beard used to be so thick and ginch. Was it? It was so ginch. It's crazy. Yeah, you need to be using it. It's a little black. It's gone. It then went a bit grey. Now I dye it a bit. How's Wild getting on? Because he's... He was really ginch when he was 30. Oh, was he? Yeah, he's really blonde now, though, isn't he? Because your wife's blonde, isn't she? My wife's blonde, yeah. Naturally blonde. Sort of mousy brown. Yeah, don't say that. No, don't say that. She's so blonde. Naturally blonde. It's fantastic. Hannah, we all know you're blonde.

39:44Yeah.

39:45Ben Shephard:she went to the hairdresser and she still takes her four and a half hours i don't know what they do that it takes don't question it i will not for her natural hair color yes i don't know what

39:54Joel Dommett:she's doing yes she comes back with fantastic um do you think that so so from what we've described to you just to sort of the idea and the the motivation behind what we're trying to do with joel and ben for skin and and and beyond that do you feel like there's an opportunity are we being unbelievably naive or do you think if we go about this the right way and get the right support and experience and expertise which is something we've been trying to do every step that there is an opportunity there there's certainly an opportunity i think there's some

40:29Caroline Hirons:naivety there but you need that to have a healthy brand yeah there has to be an element of naivety you know if i if i went into making a brand knowing everything i know i might have had second thoughts i might have been like oh sod that you know but the element of naivete is what keeps you going you know lets you make the decisions that maybe other people wouldn't make so yeah for sure i think you're the drawback will be if you come across as not serious skincare in it for the laughs rather than for the skin so i think yeah and you know because really the skincare industry is very welcoming the beauty industry is very welcoming to people who respect it and take it seriously if you don't we get rid of you so quickly yeah i agree we get rid we don't fuck about like we're literally like everyone just like no they're jokers get rid you know and people have tried famous people have tried for the longest time so the barrier you're going to have is actually your platform the barrier you'll have is people not taking you seriously because because of your platform yeah yeah yeah that's what that's the barrier so although it will bring you great awareness you know if you two are on guerrilla marketing and you're on bus stops and all of that you'll have the awareness and people might recognize it but if you're for example if you're only going to do d2c and you're not going into stores you've got to get them to your d2c yes yeah that's the thing whereas if you're in stores they're going to go oh that's that bloke from this morning that's that's the mentality you're looking at you know i just signed up to do a

41:57Ben Shephard:Facial and Beauty course You did not Genuinely did

42:00Caroline Hirons:Level 2

42:01Ben Shephard:Very excited It's entry level It's entry level You can tell me afterwards

42:05Caroline Hirons:I'll have a look

42:05Ben Shephard:I'll tell you which one If you've got a better idea I'll cancel it And I'll happily go With someone better

42:10Caroline Hirons:I also need to know The eye cream There's lots of questions I've got for you afterwards Oh we will

42:13Ben Shephard:We can share all of those This is fantastic I'm excited to get my insurance

42:19Joel Dommett:Well you weren't planning On getting insurance But now that Caroline said that

42:22Ben Shephard:You realise you need insurance I need to get insurance I need to get insurance this is really good I think this is the perfect chat that we needed at this perfect juncture in our little adventure adventure that we're going on

42:39Caroline Hirons:there's definitely a gap that you could fill

42:41Ben Shephard:yeah

42:42Caroline Hirons:how long you could sustain it for is dependent on you and the product

42:46Ben Shephard:yeah yeah at the end of the day

42:48Caroline Hirons:if the product's great then you'll have people going this product's great even people who don't like you which you're gonna have you've got your big tele personality so you've got a different beast of an audience. Joel, you mean?

42:57Joel Dommett:You don't mean me. Of course not.

42:59Caroline Hirons:TV's been chef. Just get, you know, TV's Richard Arnold. Get Richard on here, you'll be fine. So, you know, as long as you can, if you can sell to the people who hate your face, then you're done. You're fine.

43:13Ben Shephard:That is great. That is, we're going to cut that up. Yeah. And we're going to use that forever. That's going to be it.

43:18Joel Dommett:How do we sell to the people who hate my face? And there is plenty of those. now we've got some questions from our boardroom on Patreon can we ask you some of those questions these are some of the people that have joined our Patreon that are really loving this journey and have all sorts of interesting businesses and ideas

43:37Ben Shephard:first of all if I only do one thing for my skin every day what should it be

43:46Caroline Hirons:well people would expect me to say wear SPF what I would actually say is wash it wash your face

43:52Ben Shephard:Wash your face, people. Wash your face. Wash your face.

43:55Caroline Hirons:Don't sleep in your makeup if you wear it. Wash your face.

43:57Ben Shephard:The other day I left the house without washing my face. I felt mental. That's disgusting. Did you? Do you know what I mean? At what point of the day was this? I think I just forgot. Yeah, how did this happen? And somebody's starting a skincare brand. But I just, there was something that happened having a two and a half year old. It just, you get, and then things escalate. I ended up just leaving the house. And I was like, Had you forgotten to dress as well? Oh my God, I feel insane. You were naked and you hadn't washed. Yeah, I also forgot that I was completely naked from the waist down. Are we back with the dustbin men again?

44:26Ben Shephard:Yeah.

44:27Joel Dommett:Chasing the dustbin men down the road in your pants.

44:28Ben Shephard:The other day, Caroline, I chased the dustbin men in only my boxer shorts, and it was very fun. That's a nice view for everybody. Yes.

44:35Caroline Hirons:So, yeah, I mean, the basics, cleanse, moisturise, SPF. And if you can do moisturise and SPF together, which you don't have time to do in your release sort of period, then you're killing two birds with one stone for sure.

44:45Joel Dommett:But we will get there, hopefully, at some point. If we are still around and we have developed that product long enough, then a moisturiser with SPF in feels like a bit like the Holy Grail.

44:55Ben Shephard:Yeah, for sure. Okay. We've had a question from Antonia who said, is it truly possible to reverse signs of ageing?

45:02Caroline Hirons:Yes. As long as you know what is possible and what isn't. People will, you know, philosophy still and years ago made a product called Hope in a Jar. And that's what they were selling. It was Hope in a Jar. But you can reverse signs of ageing in terms of pigmentation. I mean, our clinicals prove that. Fine lines, deep, heavy set wrinkles. You need a Botox. You need a needle. But yes, signs of aging. If you are taking care of your skin from like your boy's age, for example, if you take care of your skin at that age, when you get to my age, you'll have far less traffic to deal with. You know, you won't be looking at your neck and going, Christ, look at that sun damage, you know, hide it under the necklaces.

45:41Caroline Hirons:No one will see. You know, so the earlier you take care of your skin, the better.

45:45Joel Dommett:Ellen says, what age should people be starting to think about skincare? Yeah. When is too early or late?

45:51Caroline Hirons:Hormones. It's all related to your hormones. So if you've got a 9, 10, 11, 12 year old and male or female and they start to get smelly, they start to grow hair anywhere, they start to sleep more, they start to be moody. In the case of boys, they suddenly discover the shower and they spend a long time in it. You know, like hormones. If your daughter hasn't got her period, then you're kind of okay in just keeping them basically clean when hormones come into it that can disrupt the skin and then you just want to introduce sort of the basics yeah they don't need to overwhelm them like i say just you know when you show them

46:28Ben Shephard:moisturize when you show them deodorant show them moisturizer or an spf for ease you know but then

46:32Caroline Hirons:if they're not washing their face every night that could make them break out and so it's just the educational side and there's no it's never too late no it's never too late uh dom has asked

46:41Ben Shephard:is men's skincare that's different from women's uh does our skin need treating differently

46:48Caroline Hirons:Only in so much as you tend to do more disruptive things to it like shave. So if you're shaving daily, if you're a heavyset beard and you shave daily, every day you're stripping your skin of that sort of outer layer. So you do need and then also if you have a black skin, you're more prone to ingrown hairs. So then you're going to need to use an acid to make sure that the ingrown hairs don't become problematic. so there are certain things that you don't use on a woman's face that you would use on a men's but in general most skin care can be shared across across all

47:21Ben Shephard:I was thinking it's like we need to be getting facials half price man if you come in with a beard I had a facial the other day I'm still getting charged the same as my wife

47:34Caroline Hirons:still takes the same amount of time she doesn't have a beard

47:37Ben Shephard:she doesn't have a beard currently because she's good at her upkeep. But it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. Anyway, it's just part of the things that I like to complain about. Interesting. That's very interesting indeed. Listen, Caroline, I've enjoyed this chat so much. I think this has been absolutely fascinating for us. And hopefully you've enjoyed yourself too.

48:03Caroline Hirons:No, no, I have. I look forward to coming back when you launch. Please do.

48:08Ben Shephard:what words of wisdom might you leave us with please just give us a nugget of advice

48:14Caroline Hirons:don't take us for fools don't take us for fools don't take the beauty industry customers for fools people are generally goodwill they want you to do well but don't insult them with a substandard product please

48:28Joel Dommett:I completely agree good valuable advice one last question just asking for a friend do you ever invest in skincare I feel like just you know the off chance I might know people

48:41Caroline Hirons:who can help you yes please it's all I needed

48:45Ben Shephard:I can't wait I can't wait to have a meeting and be like oh my god there are some

48:49Caroline Hirons:that will happen trust me that will happen

48:53Joel Dommett:Caroline thank you so much for giving us your time pleasure it's been an absolute privilege as Joel says we love what it is that you've done and you are doing it's amazing and it's really inspiring as well and we will take on board all the wisdom that you've shared with us and we'll make sure we plough it into our foreskin. A hundred percent. Okay.

49:13Caroline Hirons:Fucking hell.

49:15Ben Shephard:That's the ending we need. Just you going, oh, fucking hell.

49:19Caroline Hirons:Fucking hell. Foreskin.

49:23Ben Shephard:The Businessmen, sponsored by BT Business.

49:28Joel Dommett:I don't know about you, Joel, but that was really sobering from Caroline. Yeah. Just in terms of just not, I love the fact that she feels like there's an opportunity, definitely, if we get it right, but we can't mess it up.

49:44Ben Shephard:The sort of legitimacy side of things, you know, that's what she was sort of hammering home. The fact that like, you need to be able to sell things to people that hate your face, not the people that like it. My wife might be a good place to start. but oh god it doesn't get any easier does it?

50:04Joel Dommett:it doesn't so that's all we've got time for this week thank you for listening or watching wherever you are doing just that remember you can subscribe on YouTube and follow us wherever you get your podcasts and join us next week

50:15Ben Shephard:for Joel vs Ben the final the piercing that was a good voice get filling out those surveys because one of us will be getting pierced if we reach 5000 there's five surveys between us right now This is mad. This is almost like we produced it, but we genuinely haven't. We really haven't. No, do you think anyone's produced this? No. No, that's harsh. That's harsh. That's harsh. Have you seen Pictionary? I mean, draw some... Drawing words.

50:42Joel Dommett:Words with... Oh, what was it called? Whatever it was, it was very memorable. We'll see you next week, people. And one of us will be committing their nipples for your pleasure.