Stop saying 'I'M GOING TO FAIL! YOU WILL FAIL' - Paul Boross on the Psychology of a great pitch

0:00If you're telling yourself, I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail, guess what? You're going to fail. And it becomes your reality.

0:11The Businessmen, sponsored by BT Business. Welcome to The Businessmen, everybody. Great to have you with us. This is the podcast tracking our journey to create a very own male skincare brand. Look, we've got a name. We've got a logo that is underway. And we've got some amazing guests. To catch up on everything that's happened so far, listen wherever you get your podcasts and do remember to subscribe. Absolument. In French. You can also watch us on YouTube if you fancy it. Le YouTube. Le YouTube. Subscribe there too, please.

0:51I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart and I cannot believe it already came out a year ago and you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handel's Story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met, who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story.

1:29It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen. And subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or head to getthebinge.com.

2:01We've got a really exciting call to make. We have competition winner Rob Walker, who filled out our survey and has won the prize of chatting to us. Hello, Rob. Hello. How are you, my friend? I'm very good, thank you. How are you? Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on. We are so excited. This is, Rob, thank you so much. Thanks, man. We keep asking or kept asking people to fill out the survey. At times, it felt like we were speaking to avoid. But no, because, Rob, you filled out the survey for us. Tell us about your skincare. Are you a man who takes his skincare seriously? So I'm a little bit late to the show.

2:39So I started my skincare in my 30s and decided I didn't want to kind of age. Yeah. In my 20s, I was a little bit lax. I think we all were. Yeah. What age are you at now? You sound sort of mid-30s to me now Yeah, 34 I've got a great ear for age I've got a good ear for age That is a game show that needs to be hosted by Ear for Age with Ben Shepard So you came to your skincare routine in your early 30s You're just barely out of your early 30s right now What does it involve? What sort of things do you do to your face? So I obviously clean twice a day exfoliate a couple of times a week and then i'll use like a serum and a moisturizer i also have a like an led mask yes i love the led for my birthday yes have you noticed a difference uh i'm kind of only like six to eight weeks into it so i'm nice man yeah i think i i think you really will start to see the difference and i'd like i'm just i feel like i'm only just really starting to see the difference to being sort of full on with my reading over the last year or so um so i was the same i was quite sort of late to the party as well rob um but in fact my my wife said to me in bed last night i have my my led mask on every night when i come into bed so sexy it's so sexy although she is a month away from giving birth so she's very close to giving birth she looked at me in bed with my led mask on she's pregnant so she's not allowed to use an led mask my wife looked at me and she was like i can't wait till i give birth and most people will say like oh so I can have sushi or champagne she went I can't wait to use my LED mask next to you in bed the things you miss things you miss and you're in a relationship Rob?

4:23yep married married congratulations how long have you been married to and who have you married? I got married when I was 25 so you're coming up for your 10 year anniversary yeah nearly so yeah to Charlotte lovely Charlotte and up until now has Charlotte been trying to get you to adopt a bit of a skincare routine? Did you used to, like Joel, did you used to nick her potions and notions before you started getting your own? Yeah, there was a few kind of nudges and, you know, do this, do that. But she, yeah, I bought the LED mask and she steals it occasionally off me. Yes. See, now this is the world we live in now, right?

5:00Now, now the women are starting to steal our shit. They're turning. What's happened? Can I just check as well, Rob, did you vote for my nipple or Joel's nipple? I voted for Joel's nipple. Yes, Rob. You're one of us. You're part of the problem, Rob. You are one of us. But I'm disappointed to see that it no longer exists. I know. Me too. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Luckily, I didn't put any caveat on the longevity. It is still sitting on his bathroom shelf, though. It looks at him every morning, winking. Lawnly. So look, honestly, Rob, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, for listening to the podcast.

5:36No worries. Thanks for having me. Oh, we're made up. It's nice to have listeners. Genuinely, it's really lovely to talk to you, man. This is really great. We need to do more. Which we do, actually. So get in touch if you want to talk to us. Fill out the survey. Fill out the survey. What prize out of the prize of the selection, the smorgasbord, as Ben said, which one would you like to pick? I think I picked your show, Joel. Oh, thanks, man. Is that because you've got a big wedding anniversary, 10th wedding anniversary, and you're going to spoil Charlotte with a couple of tickets to the play, see Joel Domit.

6:13Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to pretend that I bought them. I so would have. I so would have. You're a better man than me. That's because he's still in the fresh flush of love. Did you like Foreskin as the name as well? Did you vote for those things? I mean, I think it's a great name. Yes. But yeah, no, I have voted. And yeah, I think you guys are onto something big here. oh man that's so cool appreciate that that's really lovely thank you so much Rob for joining us today on the podcast and happy anniversary I'll be at the Palladium as well if I can persuade Joel to give me a ticket you're going to be there too yes yeah you might have to pay because I know you've got the dollar hopefully maybe I'll be lucky enough to see you guys oh of course man thank you so much for taking part no worries thanks buddy what's up man he was a good guy I think Rob could be the future for Foreskin yeah I think he could be the face of Foreskin to be fair we haven't seen his face yet so look what have we got coming up on today's show, Joel Dummett?

7:09Well, you know how we're going to be pitching to investors very soon, Ben. We have someone here to tell us what the hell we need to do. This is good. We need guidance. Yeah, we really, really do. It's very interesting. We've got a guest called Paul Barros, who is a business psychologist and communication expert known globally as the Pitch Doctor. He is honestly unbelievable. He works with leaders from sort major organizations, including Google, Amazon and the BBC. And it just sort of helps them sort of sharpen their persuasion skills and deliver pitches that sort of really deliver. I cannot wait one second longer to speak to him.

7:50Let's get him on. This is Paul. Paul, thank you so much for being here. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you. We've got loads to cover we really do before we get into the the meat of the sandwich um you added is it true a short but memorable stint as a pop star is this yes i try to keep it quiet as a psychologist now but you know what it keeps rearing its ugly head is it ugly well you know when you're young and you dream of being on top of the pops for uh for the older listeners uh and I thought I was going to be David Bowie, and it turns out that I was going to pencil on a moustache and be Britain's answer to the Beastie Boys.

8:39My band, Morris Minor and the Majors, we had a big hit with Stutter Rap. And basically, it was an original song, but we did it in a Beastie Boys style. This was before the Beastie Boys ever existed, though. No, no, it wasn't. It was actually at the same time as the Beastie Boys. You know the way the Beastie Boys used to go in and wreck hotel rooms? Well, we would come in afterwards and tidy things.

9:06It's not just the short-lived and exciting pop career that you had, but the journey to get to where you are now as a psychologist and somebody who is known as the pitch doctor, which we're going to come on to, which is exactly why we've got you here. That journey is a really interesting one, Paul. Can you just sort of give us a potted history of how you've ended up being known as the pitch doctor? Okay. Well, potted history, studied psychology, then went away and joined the circus, Morris Minor and Majors. And I did a double act with my best friend Ainsley Harriot, who you both know, called the Calypso Twins.

9:40We do know Ainsley and adore Ainsley. Just explain your relationship. Were you at school together? We were at school together. And then we went traveling together. And then I was doing, Morris Minor and Majors was signed to Virgin. and the first gig that the Calypso Twins ever did together was on a 747 plane bound for Miami where we played on the plane to get free tickets to be able to go on holiday. Who were you doing it for Virgin? For Virgin, Virgin Atlantic. So Richard Branson said, if you want some tickets, do a gig on the plane. Yeah, absolutely. Richard loved that kind of thing. Anything was publicity.

10:14Yeah, of course. Richard loved publicity. And so we did so well on the plane that we got back and said, shall we give this a go? And one thing led to another and end up doing years at the Comedy Store and all the other gigs. This kind of fits in with what we're talking about, about how you get to a place. But one of the best trainings you can do, whether that's for being a chef on television or a psychologist on television, is to actually stand on the stage at the Comedy Store. Because if you've got to do the late show, which for your listeners doesn't go up till midnight. Yeah. And sometimes you'll be going on last and it's like 10 past two in the morning and they've been out drinking since six o 'clock.

10:56You really have to know how to get people's attention quickly. So part of the journey, if you like to call it, was understanding that actually there's a lot of psychology in performance. And I could marry the psychology I learned as a performer with the psychology that I learned initially, but then I actually carried on learning to become the pitch doctor. And basically, I was being employed by big advertising agencies and banks when they had big pitches. and sort of suddenly the moniker stuck. You know, we've got a big pitch coming up. Who are we going to call? Let's call that pitch bloke, you know.

11:37And suddenly that became it. I became fascinated by the whole world of the psychology I hadn't learned, the fast ways of changing things. You know, I mean, traditional psychology is, you know, very much lie down on the sofa and tell me about your childhood type stuff. And really, if you've got a pitch or you've got somebody who needs to get on stage, you need to do it quicker. So actually, I went and trained doctors for two and a half years and the weirdest thing happened. I didn't want to do any more telly or performance really because I'd had enough. I was lecturing and doing that. And then the BBC came calling and they said, we're looking for a psychologist for a BBC Two show at 8 o 'clock called Speed Up, Slow Down, which was a series, which I didn't want to do.

12:26And then they just kept on coming. And they gave me and the partner I was doing it with at the time a series. So suddenly the BBC branded me as an expert psychologist. So that's really the full story. Wow. And you now do a podcast, the Humourology podcast. Tell us a little bit about that before we get into the pitch stuff. Well, I started it because my two big passions in life are humour and psychology. And humourology is basically the study of what humour can teach you in business and in life. And how far it can take you. And we've had extraordinary guests on the show from... Alistair Campbell's done it twice.

13:07We've had Joe Brands, who you know. We've even had William Hague. Well, he's on the front. He is. He's got a good quote. Important, insightful reading for anyone. But it is because I think people forget how important humor and humor doesn't just mean, you know, telling acts. Humor is good humor. It's humanity. It's humility. How do you connect with people? How important that is for life and as we're going to talk about business. Every comedian, when you get to a room, you go, what is it that they want? What do they want from me? and when you then apply that to general life and to pitching and things like that it's it's actually really beneficial i think it's it's helped me immeasurably but without me understanding that it is actually helping yeah well you've just said one of the most important things about pitching is well done i'm gonna write this down Hold on.

14:08Remember this. Remember this. Joel has said something important. Listening. Because what you're actually doing, and everybody assumes listening is with the ears, but actually listening with the eyes because you're looking at the audience, aren't you? You're looking for a reaction. You're looking for a connection. And you're trying to work out, you just said it, what do they want? Yeah. And a pitch is not about what I want to give you. A pitch is about what do you want and how can I satisfy that need?

14:45Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s. You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities. Like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And, of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin.

15:24I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly. and her tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty of is being shamazing. Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous.

15:48Lots of our listeners have small businesses and they're trying constantly to go out and find ways of getting more investment and we're going to get onto pitching a little bit later on. Does that all start, do you think, Paul, it all starts with confidence? And how do you help somebody who doesn't necessarily feel confident standing up in front of people or taking that responsibility? Well, I think everything starts with confidence. And if you can blag your way into confidence, that makes it even better. From a psychological perspective, there are two types of people in the world. There are those who get nervous and there are liars.

16:27So good. But that's basically it. All you guys and hopefully me and all the people we know who are good at stuff, whether that's leaders in business, leaders in sport, leaders in small business, all they've discovered is that way to actually flick the switch, if you like, so that they can become or seem confident at that moment. If you've been backstage at the comedy store, which you both have, and you've seen it, so many people look like that. But what happens when they set the foot on the stage, and in psychology we call that an anchor, you anchor yourself into a good state. And so as a psychologist, people are always asking me, can you make anybody confident?

17:14And the truth is, yes, you can. Because everybody and your listeners think about something that you are confident of doing. It could be that you can ride a bike really well. It could be that you can bake a cake really well. It doesn't matter. But now we know that actually you can map that confidence from one thing to another. Well, sometimes it's about talking yourself into the right state. Yeah, I agree with that. There's a saying in psychology, which I love, which is whatever you say to yourself becomes your reality. And one of the things that people make a mistake of is constantly saying, oh, I hate pitching.

17:59I always get really nervous whenever I go in front of anybody and I'm fine and I get great ideas, but I get really nervous. Now, what they're doing is they are self-hypnotizing. and what you have to learn and what you guys have learned whether you have learned it unconsciously or consciously yeah yeah is you've learned to give yourself good messages but you know when computers started they used to say you put shit in you get shit out but we're we're just the same as a computer if you're telling yourself i'm gonna fail i'm gonna fail i'm gonna fail guess what you're gonna fail and it becomes your reality it always blows my mind how much confidence is a part of of success especially in business and um this i know this is sort of a blanket sort of idea of it all but i'm always amazed that when i'll do like a corporate gig or something like that when you meet the ceo and the ceo goes on and does a speech in front of a thousand people before that's my job so i don't really mind me doing that that sort of feels like But that's not necessarily their job to go in front of 1 ,500 employees and speech and do autocue and all of that.

19:11Every single big company I do them for, the CEO or managing director or whatever, they have an innate confidence about themselves, which, like you say, might be natural. It might have been something they've learned over time or subconsciously or consciously have learned how to do it. But it's so important. I think it's crucial to do that, to communicate. If you can't communicate, how are you going to get people to follow you? How are you going to get people, how are you going to move people? We're talking about the same thing. We're still talking about pitching, but there's so many things that relate to performance.

19:51If you want anyone to go into any state, you have to go into that state first. That's what the human nature is about. And our job, if you're pitching or if you're running a company, a small company, a big company, or even you're going for a promotion, is to project what you want them to be like before they're doing it. So you want them to be relaxed? Guess what? You do it. So that's a skill, but it's the same skill in pitching. Yeah. Pitching is not from one person to another giving information, not chucking information. I used to work with Google for many years. An American came over and said some people just want to show up and throw up, which is kind of like just give them all the information.

20:46It's a dialogue. A good pitch is a dialogue. you should be able to actually look into the eyes of the person and they will give you a piece of information about whether you're on track for them. I listened to your fabulous interview with Trini. She's compelling, isn't she? She's compelling. But what I was thinking all the way through was you can see why she got investment. Oh, 100%. And so the interesting thing from a psychological standpoint is everybody thinks, oh, that's Trini. She's just really fantastic at that. Or Sarah Davis. They're really fantastic at that. But actually, the good thing to know psychologically is if you're meeting these people, you can steal their skills.

21:42One of the things that people don't tell you about pitching is actually you can steal skills. You can make this happen in a different way. So what do you think would be, okay, so we'll start talking in a moment about the things you need to do to pitch. What are the biggest mistakes people make when they're trying to pitch? One of the biggest mistakes is not looking at the person you're pitching to. A lot of people get nervous, so they start looking over people's heads or they look at their computer. and you've got to be looking at the person because they're going to give you all the clues about are you on track?

22:18Do I like this? What am I doing? I work for big corporations all over the world. I was once brought in for a pitch for$1.6 billion. Oh, my God. And it was aviation and it was in finance and they were pitching for this. And I turned up and they said, well, we've already done our PowerPoint. Here's another big mistake. The PowerPoint, I couldn't read unless I was standing like eight inches in front of it. And they were expecting a group of six people who they were going to pitch to, to be able to read it. And I said, what's all that? This is all the information they need to know, Paul. You know, they really need to know this.

23:06That's a takeaway. Yes. You know, in the room, they're probably only going to remember three things. Yeah. And one of the things they're going to want to know, and this is, I think, the most important thing they're going to want to know is, can I work with these guys? Yeah. Can I... Actually, from a psychological point of view, it's even more stark than that. it's can I stand to be around these guys for the next year yeah but if you're going into business with somebody it's a trust thing right it's a you know can I trust these people yeah um that's what it comes down to I suppose yeah connection and all those things right connection yeah well do Well, there's a statistic I found out in America, which was that 70, 70.9 % of people will change supplier based on one criteria.

24:05And that criteria is, is the new supplier more fun? Wow. Really? That's an amazing statistic. But if you think about it, it makes sense. if you think about your own life, who do you want to be? Why did you start a business with this bloke? Why did you start a business with this bloke? Because you want to be around each other, first and foremost. Now, why would it be different for investors? With pitching, for me, you know, if I have a bad gig, I've got to just have a bad gig, it's fine. But also, a lot of, especially nowadays, I know how much I'm being paid for doing that amount of time anyway so it doesn't matter whether i have a bad gig or a good gig i would love to have a good one but that's i've already been paid yeah and often what'll happen paul is if the worse a gig i'm having the more i'll think about how much i'm being paid and uh but what's what's the complete opposite with pitching which i find mind-boggling which for me would make this a lot more difficult is not that i'm driven by money but it's that thing of like when you're pitching you are doing it and the pressure is if I do this well I then get paid do you know what I mean yes but so are you not therefore putting a barrier in in place by going oh yeah in fact that barrier doesn't exist if I said to you okay here's a piece of pitching advice rather than think okay I need to get that in order to get to the next stage and get the money what if I just said all you need to do is connect with the person in front of you or the people in front of you what happens is it becomes strangely different because you're just about connecting at that point you're not about if i don't do this and so what happens desperation when you were dating how well did you do when you were desperate for a date but you know what i mean yes so desperation doesn't sell and it's that's if it's in a pitch it's like people are going to smell the fear again desperation is such an interesting thing to touch on like it's fascinating for presenting for comedians for pitching i think it's all in that same bubble it's um when i did the first series of a of a show that i i still do now but it's like it's like the extra show of i'm a celebrity the first live show i've ever done you do 21 live shows back to back to back to back and the first year i did it i felt really i would always do really well in rehearsals and then then then the the live show just wouldn't really hit i was just like i'd get things wrong i'd do the uh and ultimately it's because i was putting too much pressure on myself myself but it was because i was so desperate to please and then slowly over time you learn to like get rid of that desperation and make it more of yourself but i was just so i would go on before the live telly and jump up and down and i'd be in this mad my heart rate would be like my shoulders would be up near my ears and then i'd go hey everybody welcome to mess up the old queue i had nowhere to go with my energy yeah because i was so desperate i was like please like me world and now i mean it's gone too far the other way i have to say don't give a shit Now you've given up.

27:26Now you've given up. But it's not about not giving a shit. It's about going, do you know what? This is a good brand. And belief is one of those things psychologically that you have to have. You know, and I know because I listen to the show that, you know, you're jokey about this thing. But as we get sort of to the denouement of this thing, we're going to have to believe in this. And here's the important thing for a pitch. know your outcome what do you want the clarity of the pitch is like what do you want from this you know do you want this brand to go all over the world do you you know are we now getting to the stage where we're starting to believe i yeah i would absolutely agree i think that's really really interesting isn't it if you chart back to when we started with this idea because we were launching the idea to everybody that we felt like we wanted to put a business together and it was a men's skincare business the more people we've met who have launched businesses and have been through the ups and downs of that the more skincare experts that we've met I think as we are getting down the line I would say it is that funnel is honing closer and closer to what we want it to look like what we believe it can look like and what the opportunity might be out there and there is a difference between being fun and messing about.

28:50And that's, I think, the pivot at the moment for you is like, actually, I can see this really working. But you're going to have to see it really working. And you're going to have to start to believe that this is going to happen. and in the sense of a pitch, I think your pitch starts properly now in the sense of like, we really believe this stuff and we're going to go around telling everybody, not just in the studio, but at home, friends and family on the golf course, the swimming pool, whatever. Yeah, no, we really believe it because then it will stand a char. Because the pitch doesn't start. When does the pitch start?

29:37Does it start the moment you walk into the room with the investors? I don't think it does. Psychologically, it starts when you start to really believe it. And it becomes a real thing for you. And it becomes a passion. I'm having a matrix moment. He's starting to believe. I'm starting to believe. Oh, God. Oh, God. I've got a blue pill. I can feel it. I can feel it. Is there anything, Paul, is there any time that you've ever been pitching with somebody that you thought, oh, God, this is not good. This is not going to work. This is a disaster. Yeah. Do you know why when it never works is when they're never listening.

30:17They're too inside their own heads. You know, do you know the difference between the conscious brain and the unconscious brain? Sort of. Explain it to us. Okay, the conscious brain can only hold between five and nine pieces of information at any one time. And what messes people up is they're in their conscious brain. Like, they're going, oh, I must remember to talk about that. And I've got to make sure that I remember the numbers I need to tell them. That's the conscious brain. And we'll know it in comedy. I've got to remember the punchline to that gag when it's a new gag and you're trying to do it.

30:55And what happens is people fall over because they're in the conscious brain. When people are really good, you turn up and you just connect with the person and you start talking. What are we doing now? We're not, we're just having a conversation. And I think the best pitch is actually when you know your stuff. Obviously, you've got to know your stuff. But you're not going, sticking to the script and going, I need to do the thing. we believe in this. It's got passion. It's got belief. But you know your stuff. But really good pitches and really good communicators turn up, look in the eyes of the people, know their stuff and then just deliver.

31:40Deliver. Know that you know. That's what I say to myself before I do things. Yes. Just let go. Well, it's lovely. Know that you know. By the way, psychologically, it's such a good phrase. And you know this stuff. Now just deliver it. And that's what it's about.