‘What You ACTUALLY Need To Know About Skincare’ - Sarah Jossel Get’s To The Truth Of The Beauty Industry

0:00For the first time in my life, I'm looking in the mirror and I'm swishing. And I'm like, I quite like this. And I'm standing tall and I'm feeling confident. And I'm realizing that it's so not just about how you look, but it's also about how you feel.

0:19Fabio Sementilli. Big heart, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche. He was like a wizard behind the chair.

0:30But killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out. There was rampant speculation about everything. But every wild theory was wrong. Because the truth was even more unbelievable. What? Is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing is a form of agony. From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Cut, Color, Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad-free.

1:17Welcome back to The Businessmen. I'm Ben Shepard, and I'm riding solo for this episode while Joel is busy with his baby, and I'm not talking about his six-pack. The mission continues, though, and there's plenty to crack on with. We've already had some fantastic guests join us to share their stories, their challenges, and of course the lessons that they've picked up along the way, both in business and life in general. So if you've missed any of those conversations, please do go and catch up wherever you get your podcast. Make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next. You can also watch the full episodes over on YouTube, so subscribe there too.

1:50Now today's guest is someone I've been really looking forward to speaking with. She's one of the most trusted voices in beauty and skincare. the beauty director at the Sunday Times Style, and the woman millions turn to when they want to know what actually works. You'll have seen her many times on This Morning, where I've been lucky enough to work with her, read her columns, watched her product tests, and probably bought something she's recommended. She's built a career on honesty, expertise, and cutting through the noise in an industry that can feel completely overwhelming. And given that Joel and I are trying to build a men's skincare brand from the ground up, this is a conversation that I can't wait to get into.

2:29Absolutely thrilled to have the wonderful Sarah Jostle in the Businessmen's studio. Lovely to see you, Sarah. Thank you for having me. You know all about what we're trying to do because I've been picking your brains for months now. But I wonder when it was that for you, you fell in love with the world of beauty and that was sort of felt like your journalistic calling. For sure. So I am a beauty columnist at Sunday Times Style and it's been a very long road to where I am now. So I think a lot of different beauty editors go into this world for different reasons. It might be that they love makeup and are obsessed with makeup artists and that's their route they go.

3:07Or their passion is hair. Or loads of them will be like, have beautiful fragrance stories and then they actually become fragrance experts. And they can talk about fragrance like it's another language. And for me, it's always been skin. So it's funny, from listening to your podcast, so many people sit in front of you and say, I started with terrible skin and that's how I got into the industry. And it generally is that road. When you realize you have problem solved your way through something that has really been a knock to your confidence your whole life, you feel that absolute urge to want to tell everyone how to do it.

3:43And that has been me. So I was this young girl who was so embarrassed of her skin. To this day, I can't believe I became a beauty editor because I had, I was riddled with acne. I had the frizziest hair and I just hated what I saw in the mirror every day. And as a result, I used to always say, let's go out in the evening so people could see less of me. And I, it was something that just was a struggle. And when I did an internship, it was not in beauty. It was, it was, I did fashion and I did features. I did politics at university. Like beauty was not something that I grew up thinking one day. And I did this internship because I was always told, get your foot in the door.

4:22Your first job does not need to be your dream job. So I just gave it a go. And it was what I thought. I wasn't overexcited about the red lipstick or the fragrance. But then I tried a cleanser. And then I learned about phrases like non-comedogenic, which means it was not going to block my pores. And after decades of guessing what to use, I was finally told how to save my skin. and that is when I fell madly in love with the beauty industry. And how old were you then? I was 27. Wow. Yeah. So it took all the way through to you actually falling into this world for you to discover a process that really helped your skin.

5:02Yeah. And then it was my hair. So it was sort of like this domino effect where I honestly used to spend hours trying to do my hair and then I wouldn't go out because I was embarrassed of it anyways. Like, I'll show you pictures. It was the most impossible hair you could ever imagine. My mum has these memories and it's all in the book of trying to go over my hair with an actual iron on an actual ironing board. And I remember this beauty director. That sounds like something from the 60s or the 70s. I'm that old. That's why I'm a beauty editor, you see. No, it was the 90s and we just couldn't get my hair to do anything that we wanted it to do.

5:38And I did this internship at Harper's Bazaar and this beauty director said to me, you know I could help you with your hair which I thought was a bit rude because I didn't ask her yeah goodness me I tried really hard that day as well but I took her up on it and I had this process called a keratin blow dry which smooths out your hair it's very simple and for the first time in my life I'm looking in the mirror and I'm swishing and I'm like I quite like this and I'm standing tall and I'm feeling confident and I'm realizing that it's so not just about how you look but it's also about how you feel. And ever since then, I have literally had this dream of just helping the nation day in, day out.

6:19And now week in, week out with my column to feel amazing. You know, it's looking amazing, but it's really about feeling amazing. And the letters I get, firstly asking for advice and then giving me feedback. Thank you so much for telling me about this product my teenage son now goes to school happily and like that is not nonsense that is not frivolous that is not vain that is so important but yet it's always been in this box of not being important and so that is really what the book is it's not a guide book it's not a how to book it's a genuine desire for people to read this and be like how you look is so important to how you feel.

7:03Your book Diary of a Beauty Editor is out now. I mean, you have road tested everything. I mean, that's the really interesting thing. For me, I am the first to say thanks to Luke Hersherson, etc. I now have the knowledge. I have everyone's knowledge because that's what my little black book, that's very 90s because that's now just your phone or whatever. But you know, my contacts are just right there for whatever the issue is. I am your middleman. So there are all these brands telling you about tinctures and ingredients and why their brands are the best. And then there are all these people at home who have no idea which one to listen to and which to believe in.

7:40Because even you sitting here will probably be like, well, do I need this or do I need that? Because they both sound amazing. So that's my job. I'm in the middle to say, right, she said this. And yes, that is true. If your issue is this. And that is my absolute goal is to clear out the mess and the noise and the conflicting opinions and help that person at home. Because have you found that there are so many conflicting opinions? Tons and tons. Impossible. And it feels overwhelming and it feels complicated as well. So complicated. And really you want to simplify it down. I have told people the four steps to use every single morning for about 10 years.

8:19And it's still the question I get asked all the time. So what should I do in the morning? Okay. What are they? Cleanse. Treat. So your treat is you're treating your concerns. So that could be redness. It could be fine lines. It could be pigmentation. It could be dullness. That's your treat steps. There'll be a serum. Hydrate. Moisturizer. Protect. SPF. Like it just doesn't go in. And it's because I'll tell them that. But then they're also listening to Instagram and TikTok and magazines and television. And then they get lost. They forget because so many of us are telling them different things. And that is my greatest bugbear with the beauty industry.

8:57How do you think the beauty industry has changed the landscape since you first got into it to where you are now and writing this brilliant book? Right. So when I started, I was reporting very, very serious stuff from Glamour magazine. And I always say I was very good at rhyming, had a flush with blush. That was literally the job. Like you had to be great at rhyming. And it It was the most incredible time. You know, it was the Hay Day magazines. It was, we were traveling all over the world. I was the assistant though, as doing photo shoots. I always say that was the one way relationship, that era of magazines, because we were putting information out there, but we weren't getting anything back from anyone.

9:38It might be a letter in the post saying from someone who was 80, saying we spelt something wrong. You know, that was the kind of feedback we were getting. So that was a completely different time. So then social media came along and it did throw magazines because we were like, hello, like we are the authorities, but suddenly everyone was an authority. And the brilliant side of it was the inclusivity and how it democratized beauty. The not so good side was everyone became an expert, even if they weren't an expert. What for me, what I personally loved is the door opened. And now when I'm thinking, what should I write this week?

10:16I can ask on Instagram. So at the end of every chapter, there are real life letters in there from actual people who are saying, I am really struggling with my receding hairline, or this always happens to me when I do fake tan, or, you know, it's real problems and dilemmas, or just questions that they've never really understood from real people. And that's what magazines never used to be able to do. They never, ever had that constant dialogue. The immediacy response. Yeah. And it's what you're doing now with your brand, which I do think you are going to struggle because what you realise is everybody has a different opinion.

10:51When you ask for advice, you almost want to say, thank you, thank you, thank you. And now the door is shut. And now it's got to be you and Joel. Because no one is ever going to agree on the same thing. It's really interesting that you say that because, of course, we want to gather as much information and advice. But you're absolutely right. At some point, we can't be everything to everyone. No. I mean, you've got a reputation for being very honest, evidence-based advice, as you say, and also the response that you've had from people with regards to what you've suggested or advised or helped. But also we've got a lot of trends towards science-based ingredients and processes and products.

11:30How do you get that balance between sort of offering up things that people will get really quickly and really easily and the things that can make a difference but actually might take a little bit more intricate management? I think that is the hardest thing to do with skincare. So, you know, makeup, you can say, this is the best mascara. And people will try it. You can say this will separate or it will elongate. And then depending on what you want from your mascara, you will buy that. Skincare is trickier because the words are trickier. So I'm losing people quite quickly when I'm saying azelaic and tranexamic.

12:02And so in terms of how I talk about it, I always have someone at home who is the most out of the industry person I can imagine that I'm talking to. And I think, what would they want to know? So let's take azelaic acid. The first thing I'll always do, which I do in there in my glossary, is I tell people how to pronounce it. It's a bit like red wine. Like if you don't know how to pronounce it, you're embarrassed to order it. It's a language. It's learning a whole new language. So I will say as L-8 acid. So firstly, then they have the confidence to say it because that's the first step. Then I will say it's for you if, and I'll say redness, post-acne scars, sensitivity, uneven skin tone.

12:49So now we're talking to a bit more and I'll do this every week. Whatever it is I'm talking about, I will take it back to skincare for dummies, which I kind of hate that phrase because you're not a dummy, you're a beginner in that sense. So we're taking it all the way back. So now I'm saying if it's for you and then I'm telling people how to use it. And then I'm explaining things like price points. So that's a lot of steps before I finish talking to you about that one product, which is why sometimes it's like, yeah, we get it, Sarah, but I'd rather that than assuming you know. You've got to assume the person does not know.

13:21I totally agree.

13:32I mean, the book sort of definitely pulls back the layers on the beauty industry with regards to your experience and the years that you've been involved in it. What do you think are some of the surprises that people might not realise about what is going on in the world of beauty and the beauty industry that is sort of kept secret or kept away from the front line? So there's a lot of that in the book, because, again, you know, I think people don't fully get how the beauty industry, like how it's made up. So there's a whole section on labels you might see that you won't understand words like natural and which I know you've spoken to quite a lot of experts about on this podcast.

14:09But natural is a really dangerous one because it can be absolutely put on this pedestal that it's natural. But like the mud from your the founder's garden might not have gone through the rigorous testing that a La Roche-Posay product's been through. But La Roche-Posay is not natural, but it's definitely better for your skin. So I do a lot of label breaking down because I was picking up the paper, Sunday Times, of course, the other Sunday. And this woman came up to me and said, I'm throwing away all my fragrances because I've heard that fragrances, you know, when it goes on your skin, it can penetrate and it's giving people Alzheimer's.

14:41And I was like, where are you getting this? Like, what is happening to the world? And it's this whole clean beauty movement that we're, it is absolute fear mongering. so what I've tried to do in there is explain what's fear-mongering what's greenwashing what's been proven etc so there's a lot of that so if you feel confused about terminologies then that's all in there the other thing I've really tried to do is go behind the scenes so people understand what like when you hear phrases like celebrity beauty brands you know you can either quickly be like well they just want to make money and they go and actually celebrity beauty brands are now three quarters of my makeup bag because what celebrity beauty brands have is a lot of the time is access to the best experts in the beauty industry.

15:30So there's a lot of breaking down myths. There's a lot of explaining. When you see this, this is what you're really seeing. It's absolutely pulling back the curtain on an industry that I have seen every single side of. Yeah. If you could go back to 16-year-old Sarah, and then we will have young listeners to the podcast, we will have parents who have got teenage kids, boys and girls, who may well be struggling with their skin or be sort of starting on a beauty journey. What do you think you would say to her with regards to how to get through those years and the simple things that she can do that's going to allow her to feel the best she possibly can about how she's looking?

16:10If we're talking skin specifically, let's go skin specifically. I would say if you are struggling, there is this phrase of an appointment with a consultant dermatologist will be the last appointment you have. And by that, it means they will solve the problem that you won't need to go to a million other places. Now, the problem here is they're expensive. They're really expensive. So you can't just casually say, pop in, like they're expensive. But if you are spending a small fortune on lots of different products and nothing is working, then what you might need is an antibiotic or what you might need is a prescription strength of a product which is a tough piece of information to take in because what you want is just to go to a shop and just buy a product but that's not always the answer so I would say save up for a consultant dermatologist or find a subscription-based company like Clara spelt K-L-I-R-A who is headed up by a woman called Dr.

17:15Emma Wedgworth. And she's a consultant dermatologist who is one of the most knowledgeable skin heroes. There is nothing she hasn't seen. And you can do a consultation with her or one of her representatives and they will put you on a prescription strength-based skincare because that might be where you need to go. Other brands that do it, it's a brand called Skin In Me, if you've heard about them. So what you're doing is you're getting access to the top level of skin doctors before you're throwing your money at every other product. I would say if you're at a loss with what to do, that would be my best step.

17:52And by the way, I would say that if you now look on Boots and Superdrug, they are all trying to now set up consultant dermatologist one-to-ones, which is incredible. Yeah. Because we did not have that when I was growing up. So off the high street, some very accessible sort of price point that works for everybody. Totally. do you think that would have I mean how much of a difference would that have made to teenage Sarah do you think life changing I wasted so much time not feeling good in my own skin and not feeling confident and not going I missed going on like friends holidays I would look at the weather forecast and see that it was really hot so makeup wouldn't stay on my skin or they were all going to go to a boat party where you have to jump into the water I was like you know I missed out on so much because I didn't feel confident and now there is so much access for younger people to be more knowledgeable and more consistent.

18:44And that's the other key word I beg people is just be consistent. So if you are going to try something, don't give up and just move on to the next thing. Be consistent. Some things take 21 days, 28 days, three months to see a difference. Consistency is the biggest issue we have got in the beauty industry. Right. Let's talk about brand launches. You have seen thousands of brands launch. You've seen many work. You've probably seen more fail, of course. What do you think, Sarah, in your experience separates those ones that sort of genuinely earn a place in somebody's skincare routine and the ones that might show some sort of interest initially, but then drop off?

19:28There are so many different categories that I think about when a brand launches. So they'll come to me and they will have an incredible deck. And I will always be thinking, they haven't thought about this or they haven't thought about that. So I'll talk you through it. a good product is not enough that is definitely it so by that I mean if it's a great product but the pump is annoying if it's a great product but it's expensive and not worth it for what it does you know if you're going to create a cleanser and it's going to be really expensive it's a wash off step you use it you wash it off it's a really hard sell and I have seen people say but this cleanser has this but you're washing it off so don't you know it's things like that where there's the buts.

20:12How many buts are we saying with the launch? Then I would say the storytelling. So what is your story behind it? What are you asking people to feel when you tell them about your product? Then it's box ticking. And I always say I can spot a box ticking brand from a mile away. The amount of people that have come in and said, this is amazing because it is 100 % recyclable. we've made it out of bamboo. And then I say, but it's got a mirror in it and a mirror is not recyclable. And then they just stare. And I thought, that's greenwashing. You're trying to box tick. You're trying to win this sustainability award.

20:52And actually, that's not who you are. Talk more about your incredible formula. So you can't be everything. If your product is not 100 % recyclable, leave that conversation for a mighty green brand out there who's doing that brilliantly. You cannot be everything to everyone. If you want to be a, you know, I always talk about La Roche-Posay as they are not trying to be everything to everyone. That's the cleanser Annie has. There you go. She got for the boys. That's the cleanser. It does exactly what it says. And it doesn't, it didn't change its packaging to this, you know, we went through a phase where everything was white and by radio and all those very, very, very high end sort of design.

21:32It's almost like fashion brands, but for beauty. they've never strayed from who they are they are the dermatologist backed brand for sensitive skin and that is why they are still the absolute go-tos like everybody i know who is having a sensitive skin breakout eczema prone breakout any sort of issues anyone who knows skincare will say just go to la roche posay because they are so unapologetically who they are they didn't try I get on the Instagram bandwagon, the clean bandwagon, the green bandwagon. They've just stayed who they are. So that's what I think is when I know a brand is going to be brilliant because they are so clear who they are.

22:13Of all the brands that have come in, I think a lot about Beauty Pie. So Beauty Pie, the founder is a woman called Marcia Kilgore. And her PR, Krishna, and I sat down and they said, this is makeup without the markup. And I was like, that's a really clever line. Tell me more. And she said, well, I know where everybody gets everything made. And I've gone to a lab and said, can we make it? And then I'm not going to put any markup from my side. And I just thought, everyone's going to go mad for this. This is really smart. And I think it's been 10 years. Yeah. 10 years later, we launched it in Sunday Time Style.

22:47They came to me, they pitched it to me, and I just knew it. And I wrote this whole column saying you can have your favorite lipstick but we're not going to put any markup if you sign up to beauty par you just need to sign up it was too good to be true and that is actually its biggest hurdle is it sounds too good to be true they're always like what's the catch yeah what's the catch there is no catch she came up with a way to lift the curtain on the what all the brands are doing she just got it right so when people sit in front of me i can see when they're getting it right because they've either got an idea I haven't heard of they are staying so true to who they are or they have a bloody good product yeah and when I say that because I did say earlier you can't just have a good product what I mean by that is they thought of every step um what have you seen in your experience then Sarah that have been the shifts in men's approach to to grooming and wellness over the last few decades?

23:47When I started out, there was definitely minimal, minimal talk of men at all in the beauty industry. It just wasn't, if there was any talk of men, it would be a fragrance campaign with Brad Pitt and Dior. You know, that was kind of it. Johnny Depp or whoever. Yes, there you go. You know, it definitely wasn't talking to a man at home who is thinking about his own skin. It felt completely unrelatable. And then I'd say over the, it's been 16 years that I've worked in the beauty industry, I would say social media would have been a pivotal point where men's voices started to become a bit more known.

24:26And then I still think for a very long time, it was all secretive. It was all behind closed doors. So the spray tanner, James Harknett said that it used to be, I want to have a spray tan, but I don't want anyone to know. It was the biggest secret you could ever have. And now it's, I need to go back to work. So do the spray tan. I don't want anyone to know. But now his clientele, it's over half are men. So more men have spray tans than women, which is amazing. And when you ask facialists and you ask, so many more men are now having beauty treatments and not feeling that shame. But it is still definitely more of a secret.

25:08it feels more of like the secretive world than it is for women but and i think that that is still a world that we all need to work on it still feels a little bit of a taboo for a man to like prep and get ready and pamper you know it still feels girly and that's not the case