“You’ve Got To Play The Long Game In Skincare” - Wayne Goss On Why Consistency Beats Expensive Products

0:00A skin has a cycle, and we'll just say it's 28 days, 30 days, of the skin turning over, shedding the old skin. So when you start to use a new product, you're not going to see results for 60 days because the old skin has to shed first. Then you've got to put the new stuff on. That's got to start to have time to work as well. You're talking a minimum of two months to see any tangible results. And people are bored. They haven't even given it a month and they're on to something new. and just having a consistent routine over the years, that makes a massive difference to how you look. Welcome to Crime Scene, the new weekly show from The Binge, where we tell you the stories behind the world's most unforgettable crimes.

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1:46Wayne Goss:Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down Top Model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s. You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid. He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And, of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin.

2:25Wayne Goss:I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly and her tagline was, the only thing I'm guilty of is being shamazing. Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous. Welcome back to The Businessmen. That's that. We haven't got a jingle, have we? I know, I thought I should, I just thought that's it now, that's our jingle forever. Welcome back to the businessmen. Then some big, like, big dongs. Ba-choo, ba-choo, ba-choo, ba-choo, ba-choo, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong, dong. Welcome everyone. We aren't creating jingles for podcasts, we are creating something very different, aren't we, Joel?

3:13Yes, we are. Myself, Joel Donovan, and this guy, Ben Shepard, are creating a skincare brand together. Whoop, whoop. Make sure you go back and listen wherever you get your podcasts, your legends. Remember, please, please, for God's sake, subscribe. Oh, yeah, go on. For God's sake. And you can watch on YouTube as well, and you can subscribe there if you're a YouTubist. Yes, if you... Are you a YouTuber? I am very much a YouTuber. Or a YouTubist. I'm a YouTubist, actually, I would say. I'm more of a consumer. Yeah, I do love, you know, I should love linear telly being on it myself. But, God, I love a bit of YouTube.

3:48You love a little bit of the dark side of the internet as well, don't you? Oh, yeah. We are exploring the world of AI with Mr. Domet here. And it turns out he's pretty talented. I've been genuinely enjoying learning how to sort of fabricate videos, how to sort of get our likeness into like, we briefly talked about it, but I think Spencer Matthews was on this podcast and he said, I can imagine an advert with you black and white on a horse together, bareback on the beach. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to learn how to make that. And basically made this sort of essentially what would have cost, what, 15, 10 years ago, that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

4:31Millions. So Joel put together this incredible advert, and then he shared it with us. And we've been talking about putting it out for weeks, and then we finally did it. And the reaction has been extraordinary. It's been really interesting, hasn't it? I mean, everyone unanimously found it hilarious, but also like quite, like we keep saying, disruptive in a strange way. Yes. Because people are like, ha-ha, the name, da-da-da. The problem with it, which I think is always going to be the problem with us really, is that a lot of people are like, it's a joke. Is it real? But, oh, so you're not doing it, are you?

5:04You're like, yes. And actually I thought it was, I mean, people keep talking to me. I was on this morning, the next day I put it out. And everyone was like, oh my God, how did you make that? How did you do it? When you put it, when the day after we posted it, Richard Arnold did it in their showbiz slot on Good Morning Britain. And obviously they're my friends and stuff, but they actually played it in its entirety. Isn't that crazy? My mum thought it was real. Yeah. I mean, like mum. She hopes it was real. She just said, oh darling, when did you get to the beach? I didn't know you could ride a horse, let alone Joel.

5:38I didn't ride Joel mum, by the way. But I can get, I get it. Like that's mad. that like that is mad that we can create something that like and you know i think maybe younger people can kind of see that maybe something's real or not real but like people are believing stuff and it's the tone of it and the joy of it and the noise of it and the fun of it so if you haven't had a chance um it's it's on our businessmen socials and you can see it's on joel and my socials as well we'd love to get your feedback on it there's an implication for it as well of course because you know where is this going and how can you control it but the thing i think the really important thing with what joel managed to create with this is because we are both consented to being part of it and then you can enjoy the process of it and it's part of a bigger thing with our skincare launch and the brand that we're hoping to take to market at some point it lays more into the sense of tone and fun that we want to have with it as well right yeah which feels to me it's always felt this way like that is that is our skew you know no one else is doing that like something that's a bit fun tongue-in-cheek uh bareback that is our three buzzwords and uh i've since made another fun advert which unfortunately ben has told me is unable to be released that is strictly embargoed forever yes because it involves somebody else who hasn't consented to being involved that's true actually see that little mischievous look i know you're thinking you might release it and then then withdraw it you can't you cannot do that you can't you can't you I definitely can't because because of what you do for a living then you know no no no because of what you do for a living it's so funny you can't stupid you can't you can't do it you can't let's move on I tell you who I would love to get his thoughts on this though is our guest who's joining us today because he's somebody um who has certainly shaped the beauty world in a way that lots of people don't isn't he absolutely i'm really really excited to speak to him uh his name is wayne goss uh he's a globally respected makeup artist one of youtube's sort of original beauty educators and experts um the founder of a hugely successful successful wayne goss beauty line um i'm excited to talk to him about not just business about beauty about what we should be doing for our skin to sort of delve in further into this beauty knowledge.

8:04And I think he's a perfect person to speak to at this point in our journey. Yeah. When Wayne talks, we need to listen, Joel. Absolutely. Generally, I mean, my wife says, when everyone talks, I need to listen. So, you know, I need to not just listen to Wayne. I need to listen to everyone more. Listen to everybody. But right now, let's listen to Wayne. Absolutely. I'm listening, Wayne. Wayne, thank you so much for joining us. I'm really excited to speak to you. I really am because you are one of the most respected voices in, if you don't mind me saying, in beauty on YouTube and certainly one of the earliest as well.

8:43He's one of the most beautiful voices as well. He is definitely a man who looks after his skin. Thank you very much. And I'm really pleased to be here. Truly, Anne, thank you. It's take us through it. What's the moment that you realized this wasn't just a hobby for you and that you could do it as a vocation and as a job and make some money out of it? Um, probably about 16 years ago. I think I started YouTube just as AdSense was coming in. Um, so I remember my first paycheck from YouTube, it was 30 pounds for about six months work, which was just joyful. And I think perhaps I would say perhaps a year and a half in, I suddenly realized that I was earning about the same as I was in my job.

9:26And I just actually left my job. Um, and it was that moment that I realized, oh, this could actually become a way of making a living. which was just outrageously unheard of because how could you make a living from YouTube, right? I mean, it's still that boggles my mind that people can do that. It's ridiculous. That's absolutely crazy. Yeah. So what was your process there? So you started off, take us through your early career and how you made that transition from that to YouTube. Yeah. So I'd always had a fascination with skin and I guess makeup around about my 20s. I had really bad acne. It just suddenly literally appeared.

10:04and I wanted to try and figure out how to get rid of it and how to cover it while I was trying to get rid of it so that led me down the path of trying to navigate what what a foundation was how to use it and it you know looking back now it looked horrific probably worse than the acne did itself because I had no idea what I was doing but I just was incredibly self-conscious about what was happening to my skin and then once it had cleared and once I learned how to use it I was literally just obsessed with what it could do um skincare ingredients and also the makeup how it could just alter the way you saw yourself yeah you trained as a makeup artist didn't you which I'd imagine has really shaped how you consider and talk about products and and what you've worked and what you've released?

10:53Yeah, I did. I did a makeup course. I was never going to be this really talented makeup artist. So I was always very into the sort of natural makeup on people because it's what I could do. But I just found the process incredibly fascinating. And this was at a time, I think, when if you look at the timeframe, Kardashians were quite big and that heavy glam was starting to really enter the marketplace. And I was just having none of it. I didn't think it looked great. I like people to look like they look. I wanted them to look exactly like themselves. So I just sort of veered away from it. I think it's really fascinating, especially now with men.

11:35I know you've done it for a long time, but it's something that I look for certainly in my job and just my daily life. I want to look like I don't have anything on and I don't want anyone to look at me like, he's got makeup on, but I want people to look at me like, that guy looks great. I'm always looking for people that can achieve that because I think it's a fascinating chat because I think we're not the only men that want that. Yeah, I think with men and makeup in general, it's a difficult process because you inherently, most men do not want anybody to know it's on their skin. But we've also got things like beards where the makeup can catch in.

12:18we have difficulty wearing bronzers because if you put a bronzer on your face you have to put it on your neck because the two have to look like they live together and if you're wearing a collar then it gets on the collar then you're wearing makeup so it's a very complicated process harder for men than it is women to make it look genuinely like you woke up like this yeah well how has that changed though wayne over the years because when i first started in telly uh which was late 1990s and 2000s and I remember Andy Peters gave me my first job and he took me to see his makeup artist Mark and Mark talked me through the foundation I was going to need and the concealer I was going to need and it was it was quite exciting and I was I was quite thrilled and then I remember sort of the morning after going out on the night out and being given this tinted moisturizer and putting it on my face and not looking hungover and feeling really good and thinking how has this been kept a secret from men for so long why have we not been exploring the opportunity to have products on our face that make you feel great even though you might not be and that was 26 years ago 27 years ago how has that shifted for you since since your experience of becoming a really well-known voice on youtube being completely honest i don't think it has changed and you know the irony you have things like tower you have things at love island where you've got men who are outwardly wearing makeup they've got no shame in it the average man still i think feels some discomfort in buying it and applying it.

13:44And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. I remember the first men's makeup line from Jean-Paul Gaultier, and you're talking 20, 24 years ago, perhaps. And it just tanked and died because nobody was willing to embrace it. And even today, the men's makeup lines, they still struggle because inherently men are like, I don't want, I'm not wearing that. I don't want to put stuff on my face, even though it's going to benefit them and they're going to look a lot better. It's funny, I keep getting, again, the algorithm, isn't it? And as soon as you look at one thing, that it starts to sell to you over and over and over again.

14:21A lot of men's makeup stuff keeps getting sold to me on Instagram. And there's this one, and I actually did buy it, so it's actually worked because it kept going back on. I think it's called Obsidian, I think, or something like that. And it's getting very clever. It's making it men's makeup, but it's basically sort of a concealer that you put in a bit of your eye and it's a bit of a tinted moisturizer as well. And the sort of men's angle of it, I suppose, is that it says like, oh, if it looks like makeup, then you've put on too much. And also it's in like this gunmetal packaging, which is so male skewed.

15:04And I was like, I can't wait to feel this. Like it just, you know, that feeling where it's like knurled, like a barbell. I can't wait. The interesting thing, though, Wayne, that you're saying, because I assume you know a little bit about what Joel and I are trying to do, which is to launch a men's skincare brand. We're trying to create something that is no fuss, simple, straightforward and fun. The tone of it works for men. But you know better than anyone how complicated the men's market is when it comes to skincare, don't you? It is a complicated market. it. A lot of men tend to use just the skincare or whatever's around the bathroom.

15:46So they'll use their wife's products, cleansers, moisturizers, whatever it is. I mean, inherently men's skin and women's skin, they're very, very similar. It's skin at the end of the day. Men tend to have slightly more oily skin. I believe it's slightly thicker. And ironically, it does tend to age better. And I think that's actually to do with the exfoliation that we're doing on a daily basis with shaving, at least we used to before everybody had a beard, because that process of taking the skin away, that's a really good thing. It's very beneficial for the skin. It increases skin turnover. You look younger.

16:23That's my take on why there seems to be this men tend to get better with age nonsense. At least in this section of the face, I think that's probably why. Yeah.

16:38I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart. And I cannot believe it already came out a year ago. And you can all go listen to it ad-free by subscribing to the Binge Podcast channel. What podcast, Corinne? Tell us. Oh, it's called Blink Jake Handel's Story. I created it about a man named Jake who I met who is the only survivor of a terminal brain illness brought on by heroin use. But there is a lot of mystery and medical malpractice and true crime elements that are very shocking and surprising and even some supernatural elements. So this is definitely an amazing story.

17:16It's very unique. Did such an incredible job telling the story and sharing it with the world. So if you have not listened to it yet, my goodness, where have you been? Because Blink is so freaking good. Thank you. Search for Blink wherever you listen. And subscribers to The Binge will get the entire season ad free. Plus, you'll get exclusive access to the over 60 other true crime stories on The Binge podcast channel. Hit subscribe on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com. Susan Galbraith was a housewife in Mayfield, Kentucky. But after a murder in town, Susan took it upon herself to find witnesses who could point to a killer.

17:53She thought she's going to be a hero. But that's not what happened.

17:57Wayne Goss:The lies, a lot of lies. What were Susan's real motives? She wasn't in it to help them find the killer. Why then did the cops take her seriously? It was known that she was getting funds from them. Susan's son is wrestling with his mother's legacy to this day. I mean, my mom was, I use the word diabolical. And perhaps the biggest question of all is, did she help convict an innocent man? I do feel like that they got the wrong people. From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, this is My Mother's Lies. Available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today.

18:36Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes all at once, ad-free.

18:48But why, so if we're shaving, so we know we have to, so that's the exfoliating, exfoliation. And sometimes if you shave, you'll use a moisturizer or an aftershave balm. and then you'll spray some aftershave on as well because that's what we've always done. Why have men been so slow to think about the other parts of skincare though? I think it just goes back down to the masculinity thing again because men I think inherently have been told that, you know, it's a feminine thing to look after your skin and, you know, the Marlboro Man, that still lives on to this day, even on a new generation, less so of course.

19:27taking care of your skin is a beneficial thing it to me it isn't about whether or not you have wrinkles or any of that stuff it's about how good you can look today regardless i think once you start chasing a wrinkle that's when you go down a rabbit hole of ending up with you know a face like picasso that way when you've uh you've become known for sort of creating a very well respected makeup brand uh what made you decide sort of launch your own line in the first place so i thought i had always had a fascination with obviously with makeup and makeup brushes it seemed like a natural transition for me um because i like i said i was never this really talented makeup artist i wasn't artistic and brushes themselves made my life a lot easier so that was the first point and i was very keen on sort of japanese artist sound brushes because they're all handmade and they're literally like works of art and it just made life a lot simpler for me so it was a selfish reason um and it did very well thankfully because it was my own money that was backing it and you know now with a modicum of understanding of business perhaps i wouldn't have used my life savings interesting okay yeah one of the one of the bit one of the tips and feedback we've had from a lot of people that are starting their own businesses is if they'd known now, back then they might not have done it in the first place.

20:57Correct. Yeah. I didn't know what a limited company was. I didn't know what a chartered a campton was. I didn't know what corporation tax was. And I still didn't for a large part of that period. And it came back to bite me severely. So having a modicum of understanding of business is incredibly important. and of course not try not to use too much of your own money because things can go tits up real quickly yeah yeah that's really true yeah i mean you you've gone as such a sort of cult following into what you did why do you think you sort of connected so well with people like how do you how did you feel like what was your way of connecting i think also it was a slightly different time as well so you're talking 16 years ago so there was a sort of 30 year old uh 32 year old sort of on youtube talking about makeup that was male and wasn't a drag queen so it just connected very well at the time um and i just had a i think a quite an i was very easy at trying to explain things i could explain things well to people and i think that's what made it relatively popular at the time just that being able to break down something you've always had a really honest no-nonsense approach yeah i think i mean it wasn't flowery and sort of over the top yes sir um i've got no interest in talking too much about anything to do with my life um i literally wanted to get into a video and get out of the video in the shortest period time and i was also incredibly sort of ecumenical about abusing everybody i would abuse them equally a product maybe from one line and then bad the next week and i had no issue talking about that either well i think that's what youtube is so good for is that that level of honesty you know and you're uh certainly the the youtube people that i follow and i and i really love you just you know it's something that isn't necessarily present in the type of television that we me and ben do sometimes it feels like it doesn't have there's a layer of dishonesty to it however you might be saying that it certainly feels that way whereas youtube goes directly to the source people would be like i think this product is shit it's bad whereas that's something we would never do on television because that feels like you're not you're not allowed almost uh or radio too but there's that level of honesty that's what people obviously came to you for and then you became a trusted brand because of it yeah i hope so i mean you do your best and as you go along you kind of learn You absolutely learn from your mistakes.

23:39And, you know, it's never fun bashing a product because that company can certainly take, they can be quite unhappy with you and it can cause quite a headache without a doubt. Has that been something that's happened to you in the past? Oh, yeah. I've been summoned to many a head office in London from time to time being slapped around for saying things I shouldn't say or being honest. did it did that change your approach wayne as your profile grew and your influence grew did that change your approach as to how you you sort of review products and talked about them no but what did change is getting older if i'm being completely honest um the older i got the more mellow i became in my approach to things and the less i was talking about products i didn't like because I just, I didn't like them.

24:31I didn't feel the need to have to bash them anymore. I just refused to talk about them. I wouldn't promote them. You know, I want to talk about something that's amazing. And also sometimes that weirdly, I mean, we have this all the time now in politics and television and everything, but like sometimes negatively speaking about something, that means you're talking about them. And it's better just not to talk about them. It's the antithesis of what we're seeing from a lot of influencers at the moment though where everything has to be incendiary for them to get the likes and the hits and the follows in order for them to monetize their content i mean it's an interesting thing is that you started being able to do that sort of thing or or actually genuinely reviewing products like that and now you've skewed towards a much more sort of positive outlook on your on your on your content because you've established yourself as a very well trusted voice yeah thank you and also at the time as well perhaps sort of five or six years ago there was an absolute shit storm going on on youtube with beauty influencers just being incredibly vile to each other and it would cause this incredible uptake of views of course because people are being unpleasant but then what they didn't realize is it would cause them incredible harm and those people while still on YouTube now have a fraction of their audience because they've, they've done so much harm to themselves by trying to reach the top by being unpleasant.

25:59And it never works ever. You obviously know a lot, not just about makeup, about skincare. And this is what we're going into the world that we're starting in. What do you think, Wayne, is that men sort of consistently misunderstand about skincare i think that it's feminine that's that is a feminine trait to do it and that will somehow demasculize you and that's not the case what it's going to do is look after your skin and you're going to age far more effectively than those around you if you do just key products you're not you don't even have to have this ridiculous routine i use two products at night that's it and in the morning if it's really hot i'll use a sunscreen um taking cleanser out i'll use a prescription strength retinoid in the evening um because that's literally the only thing that genuinely has been proven to work in terms of reducing wrinkles and building collagen all that kind of stuff um yeah over the top of that i'll use a moisturizer in the day and you know each to their own if it's incredibly hot i'll put a sunscreen on sure if it isn't so it's really simple like the uk weather you know i you know i don't want to wear an spf 50 in winter i don't and i will accept the the rays of the sun harming me i'm all fine with it you can live with those consequences so what do you make of what joel and i are trying to do to to launch a skincare, a men's skincare brand?

27:28I think it's great. I mean, skincare, everyone needs to cleanse their skin. Everybody needs to exfoliate their skin. A lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people need to moisturize their skin. They need some protection, particularly when the weather's outrageous, which is rare here. And you need some form of retinal product because that absolutely works on the skin. It will make you look younger. It will make you look better. and those are the things that every human needs doesn't matter age or sex it's just those basics isn't it just getting that foundation down and that's that's what's a really difficult sell i think especially for men because we don't have that education around it it's sort of asking people to invest in your product almost because you go look you might not see a difference tomorrow but trust me in six months time you will start to see a difference and i think men lack that trust in things there certainly i don't show you know i'm trying to yeah i don't think it's just trust as well though but is it we want immediate results yes gratification yeah and the thing with skincare is skincare a skin has a cycle and we'll just say it's 28 days 30 days are the skin turning over shedding the old skin so when you start to use a new product you're not going to see results for 60 days because the old skin has to shed first then you've got to put the new stuff on that's got to start to have time to work as well you're talking a minimum of two months to see any tangible results and people are bored you know they're just like oh i'm not doing that there's something new out there they haven't even given it a month and they're onto something new and just having a consistent routine couple of products over the years that makes a massive difference to how you look

29:30that's so interesting that it's at least two months because there's a product that joel has introduced me to an eye cream that i've shared with everybody and it works within two minutes yeah do you know me and i feel it working i feel it tightening my eyes and i will put it on if i've got to go and do an event or going to do a show and then i will know i'll take it off because i can feel it it just feels but it's the immediacy of reaction and i can see it changing my eyes while i'm looking in the mirror but i but i also worry though wayne that gosh what on earth is in this thing that's making my eyes look better immediately i think it might be pva glow i really do think you know that gloopy glue that you used to get from primary school it could be you would apply with this little plastic it works it works it really does it's like it's going back to makeup again you get that if you know how to apply it you get that immediate benefit the dark circles are gone the skin looks better you look tanned whatever it is you're achieving you've got it instantly um and that's what everybody wants instant results the skincare is the long game You're in it for the long haul.

30:37What do you, Wayne, think are the ingredients or particular product types that are underrated in men's skincare? I think chemical exfoliants, which sounds like a horrifying thing, right? That's going to tear your face off. I agree. So most people use a scrub and the beanie kind of things that you kind of just rub on your face. but a chemical exfoliant a leave-on chemical exfoliant will exfoliate the entire surface of the skin and if you're using something like salicylic acid it will exfoliate the pore which is where all the problems start for those of us with oily skin and breakouts blackheads those things are really important because they can clear your skin they can get rid of sun damage you can't do that with a scrub you can't do that with a flannel it's those leave-on products over the time with consistent sunscreen that will have an amazing benefit the problem is that half of them out there on the market don't work they say they do the ph of them is too high this is an acid it has to have a low ph if you increase the ph it becomes nothing doesn't work i'm with you i like i've only sort of got again it's interesting with men because i think men like the physicality of like a scrub there's literally like it feels like it's doing something like sandpaper on your face they love that and i didn't really understand the idea that a chemical exfoliant was a thing i didn't really understand it and it's something that i've started using recently it's brilliant because it really you feel so clean after it and for me personally i feel like a um a physical exfoliant sort of drives me out way too much whereas a chemical one just feels right to then put your serum and your moisturizer on top.

32:28This is a very niche conversation. I'm really enjoying it, Wayne. Can you tell? So we've been talking to the people that are listening to the businessmen and following our community and helping us sort of shape the brand about potential products that they feel like they would really like for us to create. And one of them is a tinted moisturizer, something that I definitely use. I know Joel does as well. What's your thoughts on getting men to use a tinted moisturizer i think it's good and slim to none

32:58you've got why so you have multiple color options so you're going into color so you can't just have one yep and therefore there's a possibility again that you're going to end up with a wrong color or a face one color and a neck the other um you're going to end up with transfer because they all transfer everything transfers there's nothing out there that that i've seen that generally doesn't get on your clothes if you've got a collar and with most products in order to get a seamless application you have to bring it down slightly yeah and therefore you've got that rub um and again i just don't this is ridiculous because i am a makeup artist but yeah i've the the men i know None of them wear it.

33:44None of them. And it's really difficult to get it right. Trust me. I have absolutely scoured the market. You make your own in the end, don't you? Yeah. Put a bit of colour into something? I think this might actually be this sort of antidote to it. This is what I do. And I know a lot of women that do this, but I don't necessarily know many men that do it. But I mix in with my SPF. I then put a tinted moisturiser. It's a tint, but without the moisturiser in it. Tom Ford used to make one. They don't make it anymore and trying to find it's really difficult now. I got this one from Australia and I bought it in bulk because it's really great.

34:20And so I mix that. And so basically on a day where I feel like I'm on telly or something, I might put a little bit more tint into it. But there's also something I think innate that men would enjoy in that. It feels like they can. It's like you're mixing something together like you're like you're a plasterer. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like you put that SPF in and you go today I want that much. OK, I can see. and again it's that immediate i can see that i look better and i leave the house it could absolutely do you think that could work no they mean it absolutely respectfully um mainly because mixing uh customizing your own product seems really exciting until it isn't um until you're bored of doing it and you don't want to do it every morning and also i think with going back to the kind of picasso comment because tinted moisturizers can make you look better instantly there is a tendency for over application and it can happen really quickly because you look great and then oh a little bit more and i'll look a bit better and then you've got a full face of makeup on and it happens really insidiously because you're pleased with the original result but you want more it's happened to me a lot wayne uh honestly because i'm on camera most days really in a different form, whether it's a podcast or telly or whatever.