A Tribute to the Enduring Legacy of Mrs. B

0:03BoF Team: Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, May 8th. In fashion, the word legend is often used as a convenient shorthand for longevity. but Joan Burstein, affectionately known in the fashion world as Mrs. B, was a legend in the truest sense of the word. When she opened Browns on South Moulton Street in 1970, she didn't just open a boutique. She established a portal for the radical avant-garde fashion designers that would fundamentally shift our industry's tectonic plates. Mrs. B also possessed a legendary eye for talent. She was the one who plucked John Galliano's graduate collection out of obscurity, provided the first British home for Ray Kawakubo's Comme des Garcons, as well as Giorgio Armani, while also giving American designers like Ralph Lauren and Donna Karan an entry portal to the European market.

1:04BoF Team: Following the recent passing of Joan Burstein at the age of 100, we find ourselves at a moment of profound reflection for the industry and Mrs. B's immense legacy. Joining me this week to reflect on this special history is Mandy Leonard, who worked closely with Mrs. B as a buyer during the 1980s and 90s, London fashion's most fertile era. As the founder of her own creative consultancy, Mandy's Basement, Mandy has spent decades at the heart of London's fashion scene, applying the sharp, instinctive eyes she honed under Mrs. B's mentorship. But first, we asked some of the people who witnessed Joan Burstein's magic firsthand to share some of their favorite memories with us.

1:51John Galliano: Hello, this is Paul Smith. My favorite memory of Mrs. Burstein, or Mrs. B, is the fact that she was always the same. Every time or anywhere you saw her, she was always charming, polite, and full of energy. I suppose the impact that she had on me personally was the fact that she always had an open mind for new ideas and new designs. So always curious and always looking ahead. I'm Lisa Armstrong, Head of Fashion at The Telegraph. And I first met Mrs B in the late 80s when I was at Vogue. I imagine Liz Tilbaris, who was editing Vogue, then made the introduction. She was really good like that. And so was Mrs B.

2:32John Galliano: and my complete lack of experience was never mentioned by either of them. There are so many favourite memories. One that stands out is interviewing her and Sydney, her husband, in the early 90s when I was fashion editor at The Independent. They were celebrating Brown's 30th anniversary and to me, as to so many others, they were already legendary having introduced so many major talents to the UK and Europe. She was always generous with her time and unfailingly courteous. it's an old-fashioned word but it fits and amongst all the bad behavior in our industry she always remained dignified and gracious that said you never doubted who would win in a race to secure an exclusive with a new designer she was a phenomenal businesswoman and although she and Sydney had had a huge setback in the early 70s with a previous business which would have slayed many people they bounced back she kept an open mind and loved fashion right to the end full of opinions.

3:31John Galliano: She trained and supported tons of people who went on to become influential and powerful in the industry. What feels most inspiring to me is her curiosity and the way she shared her experience and knowledge with anyone who asked for it. My fondest memory though is from last summer, visiting her flat overlooking Hampstead Heath. I went with Mandy Leonard, who used to work at rounds years ago and we both weren't quite sure what to expect. She was 99 and her daughter Caroline had suggested we play it by ear. She was amazing, full of stories I hadn't heard the first time round and opinions on what was working in fashion now and what wasn't and all the while pressing cakes and sandwiches on us and asking us why we weren't eating more.

4:18John Galliano: A proper Jewish mother. This is a message from Susie Menkes. I was a fashion enthusiast for my 21st birthday. I knew Mrs. B from her earliest times in the fashion, when her breakfast enthusiasm went from the streamlined tailoring of Giorgio Armani to the sexual glamour of the unknown John Galliano. I loved seeing Mrs. B when she chased after her latest discovery, especially when it was Calvin Klein and I watched her race after him at a New York party. Naturally, she succeeded in getting his collection. But Mrs B was as kind as she was clever. My name is Robert Forrest. I started work at Browns in 1970.

5:08John Galliano: Years ago, in the early 80s or late 70s, Grace Connington and Liz Tilbury's English Vogue were wanting to photograph the Calvin Klein collection. So we wanted to go to New York and see the collection and look at it with a view to buying it for Browns because what we'd seen was interesting. It offered us something different to what we were buying in Europe. But every time we contacted Calvin Klein, we were told no, they weren't interested. We used to call a woman called Frances Stein, the late Frances Stein, And she would say, no, we're not interested. Well, one night in Studio 54, we're standing at the bar, and who should walk up next to Mrs.

5:50John Galliano: Beebe and Calvin Klein? So Mrs. Beebe turned to him and said, I'm Joan Bursinger-Browns, and I'd like to buy your collection, but we're having no luck calling your office. So he gave us his number, said, call me tomorrow at my office. From that, we went to view the collection, we went to see the show, and we bought the collection. It was very successful.

6:12BoF Team: And now, here's Mandy Leonard on the life, the I and the enduring legacy of Joan Burstein on the BOF podcast. Mandy Leonard, welcome to the BOF podcast.

6:26Joan Burstein: Thank you. Do you know you and I met 20 years ago? It's really weird having this conversation because we're going to be talking about even longer than that. And that actually feels like yesterday.

6:39BoF Team: I know that was 2006 and I was burrowing around London Fashion Week trying to figure out a way to break into this industry. But that's a whole other story.

6:50Joan Burstein: It was very organic.

6:52BoF Team: Organic indeed. I mean, I stumbled into this, but I'm loving it still 20 years in. But this conversation is going to be really a tribute to a legend in our industry. And I don't use that word legend lightly. It's sometimes overused in industries like fashion because people just want to call everything iconic or everything legendary. But Joan Burstein was a truly legendary woman. And I'm really pleased to have you here. Thank you. Given that you were so close to her, that you worked so closely with her, that you had the chance to benefit from her mentorship and guidance and wisdom and expertise.

7:32BoF Team: And we're going to get into all of that in a minute. But I think it's important to start with a bit of your story, Mandy.

7:40Joan Burstein: And I actually, I don't know much about you and how you ended up in London in the fashion industry.

7:48BoF Team: You grew up in Leeds. Yeah. During a time, I suspect, when there was a much bigger separation between the North and the South in this country. But tell us how you managed to make your way from Leeds to London.

8:07Joan Burstein: I think clubbing was such a big thing. And it's the same in London. They had their club scene, but we had a scene in the north. And the difference is that in the north, we had a service station scene after going out. So when you traveled, you had to travel to go to a nightclub, whereas in London, people just went and there were so many.

8:27BoF Team: What's a service station scene?

8:28Joan Burstein: it's it's um after you've been to a nightclub you travel back to your town or village in the north where i was my catchment area but you know anything for clubbing you'd work the next day but anything to go clubbing so we went to manchester nearly every night it was great fashion in manchester we had richard cream who actually sold com de garçon ray karakubo made bespoke comm for him because he was as tall as a as a streetlight very unusually tall and he had incredible pieces and then when I later worked at Comte de Garçon it was very funny because people from Manchester and Leeds would come to London to the comm store which Joan Burstein opened but they wanted what they didn't have in their local territory and were you always interested in fashion

9:19BoF Team: How did you first get the bug?

9:21Joan Burstein: I think I was just always bothered about fashion. It was a way of expressing yourself. And I think a lot of people do say this. They feel very ordinary growing up. It was a time when even adults didn't really talk to children. And I just felt like I was ticking a box and I wanted to be individual. So I had a Saturday job. I had a series of Saturday jobs. But when I went to work for Benetton, I met an incredible guy called Riccardo Barsatelli, who opened a lot of headquarters for Benetton in the north of England. And when I went for an interview for a Saturday job while I was at school, he offered me a full-time job.

9:58Joan Burstein: And I said, oh no, actually I'm looking for a Saturday job. And that led to working in the school holidays and doing the store windows. Because my mum was a mature art student, we came to London regularly to go to art exhibitions. and it was in London that I saw the Benetton store window so I'd try and replicate or emulate that where I lived so yes I just immersed myself in fashion and then this Riccardo got me a job on the Champs Elysees in Paris and I worked there for six months and I became fluent in the store in French which helped me when I became a buyer going to Paris Fashion Week of course and it was too easy to come back and just fall into Benetton.

10:41Joan Burstein: And I very quickly became a manager, an area manager. I ended up in London being a buyer and an area manager. And then the boss from Yorkshire invited me back. And then I came to London again. And it was very much about, you know, where do you want to work? And I only wanted to work at Brown's. And yeah, it was really exciting. Actually, it was just after the mid 80s. Okay. I moved to London. Okay.

11:09BoF Team: Yeah. And when you came to London then, London is obviously very different from Leeds. Like, what was your impression?

11:16Joan Burstein: Well, we always knew that Leeds was rubbish and London was great. So, you know, there was no higher expectation than that.

11:25BoF Team: And then at a certain point, you discovered Browns on South Moulton Street. Number 23, South Moulton Street?

11:32Joan Burstein: 23 to 27. Okay.

11:34BoF Team: What's your first memory of walking into Browns? We would get the National Express coach to London and we would head to Browns on South

11:46Joan Burstein: Moulton Street. And I think the thing about Browns was, yes, it was very intimidating, but we went in there. It was the pull of Catherine Hamner. They had the denim. So it was actually quite a democratic product to have in there because we could actually afford a basic pair of jeans.

12:02BoF Team: Is that why it was intimidating to you because everything was expensive or were there other things that made it feel intimidating?

12:08Joan Burstein: I think it was an imposing store. I wasn't from London and this was where it was all happening. You know, you go to the wagon on a Friday night and everyone would have a Wright and Teague rucksack with nothing in it. Everyone was wearing backpacks, but with nothing in it. You go to Freud in Covent Garden and everyone was wearing Gaultier. It was a real scene. And going into Browns, it was just this fashionable thing. It was almost like, oh my gosh, this is incredible. How did you get the job there? I just wrote a letter. And when I left, I stayed for A-levels at school, but I could do, you know, school, I was good, but I couldn't do the jump to A-level.

12:51Joan Burstein: I found it too difficult. So I kind of left chemistry, economics and French very, very quickly and went to do a secretarial course for a year. And it was very boring. It was quite a good course. It was a personal assistance diploma. Everyone in the class had A-levels and I didn't know how I got in it. And it was incredibly boring. So for the fun of it, I wanted to be the fastest at typing. I was. And that serves me very well now. You know how quickly I respond to an email. i mean and and then i remember one day we had to write our cvs and i realized oh i bet everyone in is going to say traveling and meeting people i'm not going to do that so i wrote modern rhythm interest devouring monthly magazines modern rhythmic dance all this crazy stuff and when the teacher went around the class and she looked at everyone's cv she might look mooch mooch but when she got to me she spent ages and i thought what's happening here and she said to me after a while you sound like Miss World and when I sent that CV to Brown's I remember I was in my parents kitchen in Leeds and a woman came on the phone and she said my name's Erica and you sound wonderful I want to meet you and I thought there you go that was you know Miss World it was good not to

14:04BoF Team: be ordinary right I didn't want to be ordinary I mean Mandy I knew you weren't ordinary from the

14:09Joan Burstein: moment I met you you're still not ordinary but we we know so many extraordinary people in this in this industry.

14:15BoF Team: Yeah. Well, that's what makes fashion amazing is there's all of these kind of crazy characters, you know? So you get this job at Browns. Do you remember the first time you met Mrs. B?

14:27Joan Burstein: Yes. She was in heels. Very, very elegant. Very soignet. Was very succinct. If she was going to say something, it wasn't chit chat. And she had an affection for all the staff actually they were her family i must i must say she very quickly knew your name i wasn't very popular when i started there because i was so happy to have the job that i got there early every day in hoovered and then to keep us all busy because you know new new staff what you do now what you do now they just said oh go through all the clothes and read the ingredient the composition and the ingredients but actually very quickly you could use you could weaponize that and it help you sell because you sounded like you knew your stuff and it was an incredible education the

15:12BoF Team: labels that they had were just mind-blowing what did they have they had the black american fashion

15:19Joan Burstein: designer patrick kelly who was just incredible he did bodycon and he had all these colorful buttons and it was all primary colors they had john paul goetier dolce and gabbana hervé leger was very early. You know, Mrs. Burstein really opened the gateway for so many designers. So when you see archive photos of her with some of the big famous fashion designers, there's a very close relationship there. And as much as I was intimidated going to Browns before I worked there, you know, these, even someone like Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein would have been very intimidated at the thought of selling outside America.

15:59Joan Burstein: And Mrs. Burstein gave them that portal. So once they were in Browns, they could then attack Europe. So she was the first stop, which was a very prestigious position to be in.

16:12BoF Team: So, you know, in our industry, we often talk about someone's eye. Someone has a good eye. Clearly, Mrs. B had a good eye.

16:24Joan Burstein: She was unapologetically in love with fashion. Even at her grand age of 99, when I spoke to her, she was still interested and engaged in fashion which I found incredible she had wonderful taste she had a she'd nurtured an incredible network of buyers friends press so if anything new was coming through her she would very quickly hear about things but I think one of the amazing things about her was that she would never jump on a bandwagon so if she heard something was great and she had to buy it. That wasn't a reason to buy it. She had a very open mind. There were some labels that I wanted to buy for Browns.

17:09Joan Burstein: You know, I might have just seen their show. And she would say to me, watch. Don't buy it this season, watch.

17:17BoF Team: What did she mean by that?

17:18Joan Burstein: She meant don't jump on the bandwagon. Browns were so powerful. It was a juggernaut. So if you're a young designer and Browns bought you, you know, you're going to ring up your whole family. It's life-changing. but if they drop you the next season that's shattering and you have a real responsibility as a buyer and i think you know also has the designer got what it takes so you know in a way it's this responsibility but you're nurturing fashion talent as well so to actually take somebody on you need to really know whether they can hack it um there were some very big famous fashion designers who you know all designers have a weak season and there was one big famous designer British who I was with Mrs Burstein and the buyer who had gone to buy it rang her up to say oh we we won't be able to sell it this season and I and she was saying to me make an order make an order you know there was that continuity loyalty it was a collaboration when she worked

18:21BoF Team: with designers it was it was a proper collaboration that relationship driven approach to fashion to retail it's something that's missing now like it sometimes it feels so transactional between stores and the young brands they want to support and they'll like toss them aside after a couple seasons they won't pay them you know on time like there's all of this

18:45Joan Burstein: dynamic she she completely recognized what you're saying and she recognized what's it what it's like now versus to then you know browns was radical she was radical she had her ear to the ground she was just as excited about hot new graduate talent as she was about beautiful quality jill sander you know you've got to remember that you go in the alterations department at browns and if you ask them who's your favorite designer they all say jill sander because you could actually wear those clothes inside out the quality was so staggering but mrs burstein wasn't getting on any bandwagon for anybody and i think that that served her really well you mentioned just a few minutes

19:31BoF Team: ago that you know brands like ralph lauren giorgio armani businesses that became global juggernauts you know how did she convince them that this store on south molten street in london was the right place for them to break into this market i don't think she had to i think you know

19:54Joan Burstein: she was a very chic elegant woman and very early on she had all the right labels so even though let's say there might have been lesser known profile names i think that they would recognize that this woman was serious. Also, just remember that those designers that you're talking about, Donna Cara and Ralph Lauren, Calvin Klein, they weren't really that well-known yet anyway. So it was very early on. And that's why it is a collaboration because Mrs. Burstein was as vital to their business as they were to her.

20:29BoF Team: Hmm. Did she ever back a designer that didn't turn out to be worth the investment or the time?

20:41Joan Burstein: I wouldn't say that. But, you know, it's a lot of relationship. And I think with relationships, you might have, you know, like Manolo Blanek. He worked at Brown's at the very, very beginning in the 70s. He worked at Brown's, okay. And he obviously wanted to do his shoes or what have you. I don't know the exact story. but because of that relationship of course you would support him with his shoes i mean i'm like that with my clients i don't need to see what they're creating once you meet the person you know whether you want to work with them you don't necessarily need to you can help them steer and just remember that you know sometimes when you take graduate talent they might not have a wonderful tutor that's guiding them or holding them by the hand some of these graduates they leave fashion school and they're suddenly on their own but there's a responsibility that comes with that and mrs burstein built a rapport very early on and she wasn't just taking the collection from them as they were presenting it she was helping them but in a non-patronizing just a you know a guiding way you know like um they were protégés as it were and you know in the 80s there was this explosion of British fashion all the world wanted British fashion it was just insane and there was an exhibition last year at the fashion and textile exhibition renegades and it was about 80s fashion and you know to set the scene MTV Europe only launched 86 I think and you know London Fashion we only started 84.

22:19Joan Burstein: So this was like the most fertile period in British fashion. It was just all exploding. John Galliano wasn't the only one that got a window at Browns. Dean Bright, he had a window. And just remember that Body Mat was selling in the stables in Camden to all the clubbers.

22:38BoF Team: And then there was eventually there was McQueen and there was

22:41Joan Burstein: her saint chaline yeah later her saint chaline was actually uh late 80s early 90s she had the

22:47BoF Team: ability to kind of identify and not even just like pluck out of obscurity but just be able to have that foresight about who was a designer that you know that real had real potential what did she look for do you think? What enabled her to make those kinds of picks?

23:11Joan Burstein: If you asked her that question, she would say instinct. And I love that about her because I don't like to analyze things. I hate to overanalyze. And I think it was just her gut feeling. But just remember, again, she had a wonderful team of people. She had a very longstanding buyer, Francoise Tessier. She had an amazing buyer for Donna Karamonique. And all these were very, very important people in her life and you know they wouldn't go to a buying appointment if they weren't with her quite often she was there but if they weren't with her if they were concerned about anything they would very readily go to her and discuss it so everything was a collaboration and she had such a respect for the for these buyers you know there was a a fabulous woman Marie who bought Sonia Ricchiel and Mrs.

24:01Joan Burstein: Burstein was delighted by fashion. It was her dream vocation and she was meant to do it and you know it's like delegating a team. It's like you here at Business of Fashion you know you're being fed the information by all these like foot soldiers who you've helped nurture and as well as her own taste. You know I've been to so many shows with her and she loves fashion she's up for it you know Reefat Osbeck was a very good friend of hers he was based around the corner Robert Forrest was involved in the business and we all had very close relationships I bought Osbeck Mrs. Burstein sometimes came with but I remember you know Osbeck couldn't sell fast enough and it you know it was it was quite expensive but you know we had the relationship where we could buy the sample collection and then we had pieces that weren't even produced so the browns customer was getting you know super exclusive stuff there was no social media you had a we had a lookbook that's how we did the buying quite often we did our buying before the show which you wouldn't hear of now and then after the show we'd update from what we saw in the show quite often the fab last minute stuff that the designers put in the shows they couldn't produce but there was a browns could make things happen so i remember going to come to garçon because of course mrs spurstein opened the first british come to garçon store and uh which you know that's no mean feat it's very different from browns come to garçon was a different clientele people poets advertising very interesting customers i i really liked it was very disciplined 80 % listening to a customer he didn't serve people they serve you and you know imagine uh how com de garçon trust a big trust for mrs burstein to to take on com de garçon i mean again it's a collaboration com wanted you know to expand um and you know mrs burstein she bought chrome hearts very early the only place that had sold chrome hearts up until then was the store in tokyo and it was just um incredible or you know all these this collision of design talents that she had and she would just go for it she never thought to herself oh well we've got that designer it's a bit similar she had instincts which i think is the best way to operate instinct

26:40BoF Team: is essential in our business. I was just also thinking about, you know, the decisions. You said that the decisions to buy into a brand and you said like different buyers or like she had these foot soldiers in a way. What were those conversations like? You know, what kinds of questions would she ask you or your colleagues in the buying team when you were thinking about bringing on a new brand? Like what were the things that she cared about?

27:07Joan Burstein: I can't remember those moments per se. I remember going to a Val Perú show and being obsessed and wanting to buy it immediately. And that was when she said to me, watch, keep looking, you know, watch, you know, and that has kept me in good stead throughout my career. That's a really great thing. You know, don't jump on stuff. You know, she was very measured and she wasn't reserved, but she wasn't going to humor you she knew what was in brown's best interest and brown's best

27:41BoF Team: interest was all also her team's best interest i mean it does feel like when you're talking about

27:49Joan Burstein: it a different it was a completely different era there was no social media you know when you were buying you had a full 20 weeks um now that's ludicrous you have drops you have this you have that they're 20 weeks to sell 20 weeks to sell and and um you know all the time it was what's your percentages what's your percentages and i i had this real push me pull you because as much as i wanted to have a good sell-through i still wanted the customers to have this great stuff i hated selling out actually i wanted the customers to enjoy the stuff and you know i remember um she was very she was always repping you know so um she loves sonia rickiel she was a friend she was a friend her her daughter married her mrs burstein's son um and when all the brown staff were in paris buying we all crashed the sonia rickiel show literally there must have been 80 people working for browns but quite a few buyers in paris and they'd all be screaming at her mrs burstein's son simon on the door of the rickiel show what can we come in driving him mad and Sure, he let us all in just to shut us up.

28:56Joan Burstein: But I remember buying Comme des Garces on one season and she came quite late in the appointment to see how it was going. And she was wearing literally, can you imagine in the Comme showroom what it was like? And Mrs. Burstyn walked in head to toe, Sonia Ricchiel, even a navy quilted bag with Diamante Ricchiel written across it. It was quite sweet. And, you know, we took her through what we'd done. and there wasn't actually an affordable pant. And Mrs. Burstein always, you know, the way that she and her buyer Francoise would, you know, something always had to go with something. So obviously it's a multi-brand store.

29:36Joan Burstein: Before Browns, there were only designer boutiques, so the Saint Laurent shop, blah, blah, blah. But Browns was the first multi-label. So that in itself was quite radical. But in the, I remember the pants, the cheapest pant at retail was I think 350 pounds it was too expensive and Mrs Burstein you know said we we need can you create a basic pant for us to sell so someone bought the jacket they might not want the matching outfit but you always had to have the option that they could have the whole outfit and buying them was very in-depth you know if you go on e-commerce sites now you know I sometimes do this because I want something exclusive if I like a top I might put in that I want to buy eight just to see how many they've got.

30:21Joan Burstein: And quite often they've only got one or two. But it was proper buying. They covered a collection in depth. These designers were represented in brands.

30:30BoF Team: Yeah. You raise an interesting point because the whole, I feel two things happening in multi-brand right now. One is these big multi-brand e-commerce players, department stores have become so big, so driven by algorithms. and kind of, you know, jumping on a bandwagon, buying everything. Like there's a lack of curation that's led to the kind of declining customer engagement. Browns felt curated, you know. Exactly.

31:01Joan Burstein: I mentioned to you before this talk that I was, you know, who was that chair by? You know, there were special sculptural pieces of furniture in the stores. The store interiors were beautifully designed. And it was the whole bespoke nature of shopping. you know when a customer came to brown's intimidating like any fashion store it can be very intimidating but you know someone looked uncomfortable you'd say have you been to brown's before this is how we were trained and if they hadn't you'd say to them oh let me show you around and no one disliked that they all loved it coming into your house it was old school it was like how a lot of mrs bursdine's era had been grown up and a new neighbor moves in the street you make them a when the customer leaves you say goodbye you don't just leave them to go out unrecognized it was real old school yeah but but the magic was the collision of the labels so you had the radical disruptors of the new kids and you had these incredible luxurious brands as well

32:00BoF Team: you know i'm feeling this new energy in multi-brand retail so i'm wondering for all those independent retailers around the world and there are so many there's neighbor in vancouver and there's van space in new york and you know there's all of these great stores like what what lessons would you share with those independents from your time working yeah first on the shop floor at brown's then as a buyer as brown's you were still on the shop floor as a buyer then by the way i was still a shop girl really yes so was that part of being a buyer

32:34Joan Burstein: yeah because it had to be on the shop when you bought you weren't buying for your customer you were buying for each customer so you knew the customers that were buying it but you wanted to challenge them you wanted it you know you wanted to push them a bit if someone bought a piece of katherine hamlet one season or gotier the next season they might buy the matching you know and also we had a lot of young kids that came in browns it was a bit cult browns you know we used have people coming in just for steven sprouse jeans daydlo jeans um and you know that they they were increased income so they could buy more expensive clothes as they progress but the worst thing you could do this is what i was going to say about mr and mrs burstein you were very much taught that everything was common sense so obviously what do you mean everything was well every i i'm a bit like that too it's like you know me and a friend were once joking about what should we call our company it's obvious we call the company it's obvious because you use your wits you use your common sense and I think Mr and Mrs Bursting were very like that and that's why they respected people's opinions but the worst thing you can do is try and be all things to all people in any aspect of life it's the worst thing you know try and satisfy I think it's it's always you know when somebody is going to Brown's they want fantasy they want to enhance their lives they're going in and they're seeing friends because they might go in there a lot to talk no one's putting them under any pressure to buy they can come and hang out it's an old school service we were interested in the customers.

34:20Joan Burstein: We weren't just treating them like a customer. There were some incredible characters, but, you know, they expected to be challenged by Browns. They expected to see the best of global fashion. And that's how Mrs. Burstein, you know, she was such a pioneer. She created that and it was her instinct and her brilliant team that she had around her.

34:43BoF Team: right so stay close to your customer don't try to be all things to all people challenge your customer those are all really important lessons what you're doing what is

34:54Joan Burstein: your point of difference yeah you know what is your point of difference um you know um brown's was instinctive and it was new fashion and for me i loved the as i said the collision of the stalwart fashion designers with the young emerging talent. I mean, you could say there was something for everybody, but, you know, people had a lot of confidence in browns. When they went to shop there, they trusted browns. They didn't think, oh, that's ridiculous. They would, oh, if browns have bought it, it's interesting.

35:31BoF Team: Right, it was a real endorsement. um you know you said mrs b even in her final days was still really engaged with fashion what did she make of how the industry had changed she recognized that it had changed a lot i mean i think it's a bit like you know couture fashion week and fashion week

35:54Joan Burstein: the browns was old school it was couture and i think you know as soon as you run a business that's more like you say the algorithms and trying to be oh that sells let's get that without the consideration um almost buying stuff like it's a commodity but lovingly crafting an edit you know it's that's not so interesting to her and i think someone who who's every fiber was operating like that could very quickly recognize oh this this isn't for me this isn't you know this isn't where I'm coming from but you know she she was still engaged and and had an appetite for fashion which I found incredible you know sometimes you you know I grew up in an era when fashion wasn't a career so I always thought I had to justify working in fashion and and I think sometimes you felt it was a bit two-dimensional as an industry.

36:59Joan Burstein: But, you know, in Browns, it was every piece of the industry coming together. I should also mention that, you know, there were a lot of Jewish people underpinning British fashion at the time. And I think that...

37:12BoF Team: You said that Mr. and Mrs. B were like old Jewish grandparents to you, right?

37:16Joan Burstein: I mean, it was a fondness, you know. And I think, you know, a lot of Jews, you know, I'd come over from Eastern Europe and all they could do was sew, stitch, cut patterns that they'd self-taught themselves and make cabinets. But what was great about the Jewish community was that they enabled a lot of the immigrant communities in their universe. and so they they work very closely with the Bangladeshi community the um Jamaican community and um you know because it was all sustainable and no one had any money they're all living very poorly in the east end there was so there was it was so sustainable so somebody bought for a store this incredible quality from this culture back then the prices were great because there was no wastage so it was almost like sustainability before it had to be that's how fashion was then but i think you know especially in that 80s exhibition last year there was a whole section of this exhibition which was browns and it crossed over from these young club kids you know we had the clothes show i think that was 86 there's no fashion tv really now i wish there was But there was hardly any channels and everyone watched the clothes show.

38:41Joan Burstein: And, you know, there was no social media. So club flyers, it was an art form. And, you know, Dave Swindell, who was the going out editor at Time Out, he went to clubs to review them, but he ended up taking photos. And if he hadn't taken his photos, there would be no documentation of that era. and I think again what the Jews did and I think Mrs Burstein was bang in the middle of it all was they created this high street and it was fashionable but then they crossed west to the west end and that's where Mrs Burstein and these characters come in and there was an incredible group of men who started the model house group and what they did was they would you know speak to the government about exports production and they promoted this new category of fashion and they helped export british fashion um globally um there was this boom since the 60s post-war in the uk and and they tapped into that and they again you know when they spoke to the government they were almost like saying look you've got to the seasonal couture calendar has to be within a week and a second later you've got London Fashion Week has started and again Mrs Burstyn was a big pioneer in that as well a part of that so we've almost run out of time I just I wondered whether you had any final reflections on Mrs B I mean if she was here what would you what would you say to her as a kind of thank you I'd say thank you for these incredible friendships you know the people that I worked with back then and none of them had surnames it was Jana from the stockroom Rose from accounts Ronnie did the windows a lot of people we know now Sarah Richardson um amazing stylist and editor she was an assistant of the windows at Brown's you know it was these are people I'm just as close to now and we we look back with such affection on that time of our lives.

40:55Joan Burstein: She brought together the hottest stylist. Kim Bowen was such a big stylist then. She supported Stephen Jones when he first started. He says to this day that Robert Forrest and her were just guardian angels. And just bringing this incredible community together, it's very, very precious. It's an incredible network. And whatever area I work, not just in fashion, but in creative London, I've always got an incredible pool of people to call upon which she brought together well lucky

41:27BoF Team: you'd have been there during such a fertile time as you said for for London and such an incredible store you know I was only there for the like the kind of final years of Brown's but even even I I remember just walking in there and having those moments Giorgio Armani was very radical you

41:50Joan Burstein: You know, and I've had black cabs in London where the drivers said that they used to save money and go to Browns to buy an Armani leather jacket. You know, those were when you went clubbing. Someone would say, can I take your coat? No, it's my outfit. You kept your coat on in the club. But, you know, that was.

42:07BoF Team: Those are for fashion people that take fashion really seriously. But no, thank you, Mandy, for your time and for sharing your memories. And of course, the fashion industry is really going to miss Mrs. B. but she's made such a indelible contribution to the industry that she's definitely a legend that will go down in history. A huge legacy, utterly.

42:28Joan Burstein: Seeing some of the comments on social media, she would love it.

42:32BoF Team: Yeah. Well, long may her legacy last.

42:36Joan Burstein: Thank you.

42:49Thank you.

43:19John Galliano: Join the 15 ,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to Vanta.com.

43:49John Galliano: in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today.

43:53BoF Team: Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast.

44:04John Galliano: Rules and restrictions may apply.