An Act of Love: Securing Franca Sozzani’s Legacy

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of The Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, November 28th. Francesco Carazzini grew up in the rarefied world of Vogue Italia, not just observing it, but living it every day. As the son of Franco Suzzani, the magazine's legendary editor-in-chief, fashion wasn't just part of his surroundings. It was a language he was exposed to every day. He became a photographer and filmmaker, but it was only later that he turned the camera towards the most personal and complicated subject in his life, his relationship with his mother. The documentary Franca, Chaos and Creation, premiered in Venice just before her passing in 2016 following a battle with lung cancer.

0:51When I asked her to take a look at the first cut of that, she said, this is the most mediocre thing I've ever seen. Do yourself a favor, find a point of view. And that opened my eyes not only on the film, but in general in life, you know, on the importance of that lesson, which is always try and find a point of view. Don't, you know, don't do anything without that. In a regular relationship between mother and son, that might have been, you know, something excruciating. In ours, it wasn't because we were so on the same level. We treated each other like friends. Since Franca's passing, Francesco has been working to transform her memory into meaning.

1:30He co-founded the Franca Fund for Preventive Genomics, an initiative advancing genomic screening to prevent the disease that took his mother's life. We met in Doha, Qatar, where last weekend he hosted the fund's first ever gala. And we spoke about what it means to honor someone not just by preserving their legacy, but by evolving it. Here's Francesco Carazzini on the BOF podcast. Good morning, Francesco. Good morning. How are you? I'm good. We are in Doha in Qatar for the first Franca Fund Gala. And we'll get to that in a minute. And the whole reason why you're here and we're having this conversation.

2:17But as always, I want to start with a little bit of history. And you had the very unusual privilege of growing up in the world of Italian vogue. with your mother. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what that was like? I can't even imagine what that was like. Well, you know, for so long, everything was quite normal for me. You know, I would go to the offices. I would make my own magazine because I sold them like, you know, it was the time before computers. So they were cutting up pictures and there was spray glue, which was probably like cancerogenic and that's how magazines were made. And I would go and do the same.

3:00And that was like this big extended family because my mother's job was her life. And so I don't remember my mother separately from work, you know, not working. Everything was always about work, but she included me. So it was this, you know, truly magical world in a way when I look back at it. But for me, very normal. So normal that when at school they asked me what my mother did, I said she sells newspapers. Because I really had no idea until I was like eight or nine what she really did. And then obviously, you know, yeah, when Naomi Campbell came to pick me up at school, which is a famous story that a lot of people refer to.

3:44And I left because she was late. Then the day after, you know, people were like, who are you? So what was the moment when you figured out not just what your mother did, but what she represented in culture? I mean, I guess you're right. When you're growing up, your parent is your parent. Their job is their job. And everything seems totally normal. But there must have been a time when you were like, oh, okay, this is perhaps a little bigger or different than I understood. Yeah, it was, you know, it was when the outside world started to ask me questions about it or making me notice that it was a normal, that my life was what it was, you know, that it was a normal at 10 years old to be at Madonna's birthday, you know.

4:31so that was sort of like something for a while I was I don't want to say ashamed of but I was like I don't I didn't know really how to deal with it because it was just from seeing from the outside it was just you know privilege and and sort of like this this um you know you're I was lucky to to be in it which is true later I really understood I think I was a teen where I understood that not only our life was quite extraordinary but that she did something that actually mattered that, you know, I started understanding what vision was, what discovering talent was, what, you know, all the things that she was good at.

5:06So I think that happened more in my teens, where I understood that she actually was doing something quite special. And truly, like she wasn't when I was 10, who she became later. So I sort of followed that evolution through my teens and early 20s, as she became more and more influential, more and more powerful, and took on more and more responsibility because she became editorial director, we think. So yeah, it was a little later then. I can imagine that when you have this parent that's so successful and whose career is so closely intertwined with their life that it's hard to kind of carve out your own identity and your own choices and your own career.

5:52Initially, you pursued photography, right? Yeah, for a while. And that was, would you say, influenced by the fact that you grew up around like Peter Lindbergh and Stephen Mizell and all these guys? Yeah, I really loved photography. I soon understood it wasn't my dream. Yeah. It was many of my friends' dreams because I had a lot of friends that did that or anyway, something similar in the world, especially of publishing of fashion and art. And I used it. I used it because it was a tool for me to, first of all, travel, learn, meet people. But also now that I'm moving into directing and I'm doing, you know, let's say I have to deal with bigger productions, more people.

6:42It was really a big school of just like dealing with people, of dealing with responsibility, dealing with timelines, dealing with budgets. And it was amazing. And then when, you know, again, I had like, I think about 15 years of that between assisting, where I did assist a bunch of amazing photographers and was on set with, you know, Bruce and Peter and many others. And, you know, Deborah Tourbeville, I took an amazing trip with her to Russia. And all that led to, why don't I just take my own pictures? And portraiture was what I found interesting. thing. I never loved clothes. And so I never really focused on the fashion aspect of it, but it was always more like portraiture and celebrity.

7:30And then when COVID happened and all of our lives sort of took a break, I was 38. And I was like, maybe this is the time where I really dive into what I'm dreaming of, what I've always dreamed of. And that's when I started, you know, I had already made the documentary about that. Yeah, you and I met before COVID. I mean, the last time I think that we properly saw each other was when we did a little screening of the film you made about your mom. Yeah. I remember that film being so moving because initially it felt like it was a film about your mother, but then it really became a film about your relationship with your mother, right?

8:11At that time, did you know she was ill? So I started making the film four years before she died. And it was something that, I don't know, I had an instinct about wanting to, you know, my father had died. The film starts with me saying my father died. And I turned to what was left of my parents, which was my mom. And I never really had a very deep relationship with my dad, because he wasn't around and they were not together. So it started as almost like just a need. It was never planned to be like a film and all that. It was more to just explore. Explore, yeah. I took a camera. I just started interviewing her, asking her questions.

8:52And then one day I found this 8mm footage, which you can see in the film, of her as a young girl. And that sort of led to me starting, you know, like, well, maybe I'll start making something about her. And in fact, to your question, it became a film about her. And this is one of the best stories I have about it, is when I asked her to take a look at the first cut of that. She said, this is the most mediocre thing I've ever seen. Do yourself a favor. Find a point of view. And that opened my eyes not only on the film, but in general in life, you know, on the importance of that lesson. which is always try and find a point of view.

9:38Don't do anything without that. In a regular relationship between mother and son, that might have been something excruciating. In ours, it wasn't because we were so on the same level. We were all so on the, we treated each other like friends. And so I was like, yeah, maybe she's right. Let me take a look. And at the time I had started working with this producer who's an amazing filmmaker and she was nominated for an academy. me and her name is Amy Berg and she's, she became my producer and she was one of the few people who said, her and Baz Luhrmann actually, who took a look at that cut and said, well, there's one thing missing in this film and it's you.

10:19And that's how we sort of like restarted the process. And then I understood that that was what the film was about. Now, when I did finish that cut, which was sort of like the final film, she called me and said, I need to see you. And I went to Milan and she said, you know, I don't want to make it too dramatic, but I think I'm dying. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Do you remember in that moment your reaction? Yeah, I do. I was in the same place where, this is quite incredible, where I got the news that my dad was sick. The same place? Same place. And obviously I panicked. I was like, what do you mean? I just lost my dad four years ago, you know.

11:01Mm-hmm. So, well, they found this thing and, you know, it's not looking good and blah, blah. So the rush of finishing the film, we sold it to Netflix, we got it into Venice. And then the movie is one thing and what you see is one thing, but the actual big stories, those last months, you know, of our relationship, finishing the film and then screening it in Benny's and then all of a sudden the lights turn on and everyone's crying because some people know some people don't but me and her look at each other and we're like this is sort of like our last big moment together that's quite beautiful to have that time to work on something so personal together with your mom right at the end of her life yeah very lucky I want to go back briefly to the feedback she gave you because I spent some time with your mom, not tons of time.

11:58Actually, one of the last times I interviewed her was in this region and in Dubai, like maybe in 2017, 2016. You know, those kinds of editors or personalities, there's not that many of them left in our industry. The ones who are so unflinchingly direct, you know, we're in this climate now where it's very hard to give feedback, to be, you know, so just direct about things. Was she always like that with you? Like leaving aside the film stuff and finding the point of view, like what was it like to grow up with that kind of directness? You know, I appreciate it because ultimately it's, you know, we're all here to learn.

12:41And she really never meant it as a judgment. It was never meant, you know, there's, there's a judgy way to be direct. And there's a way where it's like, I'm saying it for you because that's what I think. And you can disagree or agree, but I'm trying to help you. You know, I think that the same relationship she had with me, she had with all her photographers too. You know, they all, I don't have them all in the film because I couldn't, you know, but all of the interviews say the same thing. You know, Your mom gave me freedom, but challenged me. And whenever I was bringing back something she didn't like, she'd be like, listen, this is not good enough for you.

13:19You're just better than this. I like the words, this is not good enough for you. Right? Because that in a way says, I know that you have more in you. Yeah. Right? So it's in a way being direct and also saying you have the ability to do better. And by saying that you're opening up something that people might not believe in enough. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? That's what I think. It's quite extraordinary about the mentorship she gave me and everyone else. So you finished the film, you screen it in Venice, and it was just shortly thereafter that you're... She died two months after. Mother passed away.

13:56Three months after. Looking back now at that time, what memories do you have of the final months of her life? so i want to say apart from like seeing her you know at the very end in the hospital where she was my last memory with her it's truly that moment which i always say one day i'd love to make a film about this you know which is which has something to do with the film but it was more it would be more the process of what this meant in the last months of her life finishing a film you know, trying to close out and say goodbye, you know. But the last memory I have really, maybe because I want to, not because it's what's in my, you know, in my camera roll, it's the moment where the lights turned on and we looked at each other.

14:48Because I know... At the screening. At the screening, yeah. She hadn't seen the final cut. So she said, after that comment two years before, she said, I don't want to see it. I know you'll do great. I want to see it at the festival. and there was just like approval, love. It was a goodbye. It was, you know, in that look, there was like so, so much. And I think that really was one of the reasons why I was able to accept, you know, because there are people that never accept the death of a parent or the death of a dear, you know, of a person dear to them. I literally closed my circle with her that night.

15:30That's so beautiful. So in a way, you'd had this moment of closure with her. You'd unknowingly worked on this film that would end up being a forever document of her, but also your relationship. when she passed what did you start thinking about in terms of preserving her legacy beyond the film I felt right away that our lives were so intertwined that there was no way I was gonna be like okay this is it and now I'm moving on and you know and you know I'll have just like I always want, I always had the desire since the first months to take her with me. But I was thinking about it this morning as I, you know, prepare for this day and for the speech tonight and everything.

16:22And I, I think it also has to do with the fact that I think legacy, you know, memory and legacy often get confused and just like keep remembering someone feels like you're carrying their legacy, but it's not, you know, I really wanted something meaningful, an act of love, taking something personal and making collective, you know, I always had these sort of like thoughts with her. And when she died, I had met just before, just because I was desperate. And, you know, I was like, what, what can I do to save her? You know, I had met this scientist, Dr. Green at Harvard. And I soon became so fascinated by genomics and the field, which 10 years ago was like, you know, way behind where it is now.

17:09And very quickly, I decided that that could have been something that had all the, you know, all the elements, the pioneering element, you know, the collective, you know, the preventive element. all the sort of things that I was interested in that I thought kind of came together with my story and my mom's story and all of that. And I started very soon to say, why don't we do something that carries our legacy in science? You know, and people, everyone's like, what, what, what are you doing? Why genomics? Like, there's so many other things, like, why are you, you know? So why genomics? Because, and maybe tell us a little bit about the very rare form of cancer, lung cancer that your mother died from.

17:50It was a genetic thing. So there's no answer yet, you know, not yet, meaning there's no answer on her type of cancer. It could be a genetic mutation. So it could be nurture or nature. We don't know. You know, her specific answer is associated with asbestos. So she lived in a period where asbestos was used, common, you know. Everywhere. 60s, 70s, you know. So we don't truly know. But what was clear to me is that she belonged to a generation that thought that doctors are someone you go to when you're sick. And it's not the case. Doctors are people you go to to keep healthy, especially with the science we have right now.

18:32Obviously, when something happens like cancer, sure. But I'm saying there's so much you can do preventively. And what is the, obviously, apart from screenings and all the things that people do, what's the deepest form of, you know, reading your information and trying to understand who you are and what your risks are, that's all in genomics, which is a field that in 10 years has been, you know, growing exponentially. So what have you learned about genomics? Like, tell us what it is for the layperson who has not met with scientists from Harvard. Yeah, it's, you know, the very simple notion of reading the information that is in your DNA, That is your genome, which has, now we're reading 5 ,500 genes about, we're able to read, but there's many more.

19:21And sort of like finding out what mutations expose you to a risk. Okay. Now of this mutation that exposed you to a risk, there's two types. A type that is not actionable yet. There's no cure. Let's say Alzheimer. Let's say Huntington's. Let's say, you know, all these things. And then there are many, many, many, many that are actionable. conditions that, you know, you hear about a kid dying on a basketball court when he's seven because he had a heart attack. Well, he had a condition most likely that would have been prevented with an operation if you knew. And no one did anything about it because it's not, you know, it doesn't go through general screenings.

20:02It's not. So the principle is basically that you have this kind of genomic scan and you can get a view of a bunch of things for which there may be no cure currently, but there's certain things for which if you do the scan early on in your life and it can be, you know, various issues can be identified, you can take action to prevent them from losing your... Yeah, losing your life or having a condition that will, you know, mark your life. And another thing that is quite interesting is because we're focusing specifically on newborns right now, parents find out they have conditions based on the genome of their newborns.

20:42because obviously like mutations are carried. So it's just like, you know, the power of knowledge, basically. It's the most simple notion, you know, we can think of is knowing is power, you know, knowledge is power. And so knowing yourself. Why is the focus on newborns? Well, just because they have more time ahead. And so studies can track how these mutations manifest. and it's just a more complete way of studying. And then the other thing is because if we catch things when they're very young, we can obviously save their life. Obviously a 40 year old can have numerous risks, but it's different than catching them when someone's six months old.

21:25And you'll know that maybe a vitamin supplement could prevent them from becoming blind or, you know, just there's so many of these things. So I guess that brings us to coming up with the insight around genomics, and it could have been the kind of thing that maybe would have saved your mother's life or, you know, extended her life in some way. How did you take that kernel of an idea and some of these insights from Dr. Green and turn them into the initiative around, it's called the Franca Fund for Preventive Genomics? Yes. So first of all, I did it, you know, Robert and I sat many, many times and we tried to find you know because genomics is such a wild field and you know people are not as you say um have a bit of a hard time wrapping their head around all the aspects and so we tried first of all to narrow it down and so robert had already started a study on newborns and he was the first in the world to study numbers and i supported his study to sort of be a pioneer with him in what he was doing.

22:34These studies started popping up all over the world. There's over 30 now, and there's a consortium of all these studies, which is pushing genomics further and further and further. Obviously, the science is accelerating so fast, we can now edit our genome. We can, you know, there's gene therapy, which is now saving. We have a child in, you know, associated to our program was literally life has been saved with gene therapy. It's very expensive and, you know, some are still in trial, some are not. But again, it's a field that is moving so fast that we wanted to be sort of like the first. And with this big dream of, you know, having every and any newborn all over tested for as many conditions as possible in order to prevent them from getting sick.

23:24And this is because of the rules and regulation, because of the ethics and the morals around it. Because when you do a test, you have to make sure, you know, you tell the parents if this is comprehensive in the sense that you're telling them what can be done and what can't be done, or you just want to tell them what can be done. And so there's so many aspects of it that every country has, you know, insurance discrimination, you know, in America is a big issue where if you were exposed to certain risks, you would, you know, have a hard time being insured. So there's so many, so many aspects. But, you know, the big vision and the big dream is that.

23:59It's let's test any newborn for as many conditions as possible and save lives. That was like the big dream. That still is the big dream. And we're definitely much closer than we were 10 years ago. So what did it take to establish like an entity and raise money? I mean, that's what basically you're trying to raise money now to like support this. Yeah, yeah. How much money do you need to raise? Well, the way we do it is we raise money that keep Robert and all his team working comfortably. They write grants that then the NIH gives. So let's say I supported his study for a year and I spent a million dollars.

24:38He might have written two grants then and won them and got 30 million or 20 million from the NIH. So in a way, it's to leverage. Totally, totally. We're a multiplier. You know, we, I mean, me alone, I mean, I would have to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to advance, you know, research in a meaningful way. This is just the best way to sort of like put him in the conditions to do what he does best. Tonight we're raising a lot and that's going to help him really get very, let's say, stabilized within his research lab. And then, you know, that will generate more and more and more grants and will advance the field.

25:17I mean, in 10 years, the progress has been amazing. He's going to speak tonight to it. But it's been, you know, I mean, I'm really, really proud of what's been done. Also because it was just like, in the beginning, people were looking at us like, what do you want to do? Why do you want to test new births? Oh, my God, you can't do this. And now it's just like slowly becoming more and more common. My sister's a pediatric endocrinologist. She does a lot of work in diabetes. So I know how vital having that financial support is for her to do her work. And then if she and her team, she can employ a team of people and they can apply for grants, like it really can be a multiplier.

25:59You can have so much impact. So that's, so then why a gala and why Qatar? Like, you know, there's, there's so many galas. There's so many places in the world you could have chosen, like to maybe tell us a bit of a, the backstory of why. Yeah. You know, the fundraising for, you know, especially for research is very, very tough. I've had the luck of having lots of support from the industry, from the fashion industry. One initiative I want to mention is I did with Marta Ortega, with Zara, Peter Lindbergh. There was a Peter Lindbergh sort of editioned t-shirt, limited t-shirt sort of run they did.

26:37And all the money went to us, to the Franca Fund. So we've done like things like this. But like to do something that, you know, was meaningful and that would allow us to really, you know, make a big step was necessary at this point. Just to have like more stability because it's like it's constant, you know, the threats to research are constant, especially right now where a study like ours, which has diversity as one of the focuses, cannot say it has a diversity in the title because of our president. So, you know, we would be shut down. So it's all just like very, very... So you had to do it outside the US, you think, the first gala?

27:20I think so, because we live, you know, the political climate, it's tough. And I'm doing it in America, despite the fact that I'm Italian, my mother was Italian. But like, all I'm doing originates from Boston. So to do this and to do this in a big way, I've been talking to different people. and Her Excellency Sheikha Mayasa has always been a friend and she was a friend of my mom. They had sort of like a, you know, we came to Qatar once to see a Damien Hirst show, met in Milan. You know, they sort of like fostered this relationship quite a while ago now, probably 15 years ago. And we've always talked about doing something together.

28:03And literally as we, you know, brainstorm, this idea came about. and just like, because I know you're doing this thing for your mom. And so I was like, well, that would be amazing if we could, you know, tie it to the fresh and trust Arabia, which is getting more and more visibility. Because everyone's already here, right? And everyone is already here. And, you know, this is a region of the world that is, you know, big on innovation and doing new things. And I was like, why don't we do it there? And she loved the idea. And then I was like, okay, you and I could do it big. but if I ask Anna, we could do it bigger.

28:40So how did Anna get involved to make it bigger? I went to her and I said, look, it's very meaningful to me. Whether that's family or friends, I don't like to ask anything of people. I really have a lot of pride in that. I'm not, you know, I just find it very hard. And I was like, you know, of course, if you don't want to do it, it's fine. But this is, we could really like make a big step forward. and with no, you know, she didn't flinch. She said, yeah, I'll help you. What do I need to do? I said, you need to. It doesn't hurt that your mom and your mother-in-law were very good friends, right? And so there's something beautiful about.

29:18They became very good friends. Did they become? They studied each other at a distance for many years. Yeah, I guess when Vogue and Condé Nast were more divided up into different bits. Yeah. But at some point they became close, right? Yeah. But, you know, Anna went so many more times than I did to Milan when she was very sick. Like, she saw her last. I mean, she saw her after me because I was coming back to see her and sort of like two weeks before. And then Anna went the week after. And then I was coming back for Christmas, not knowing, you know, what was the day she was going to. And when I came back, she was already basically gone.

29:55So, no, she went back. She was a very good friend. She was very close to her in the last few years of her life. so you know it was just like okay we really put all our forces together and um and wanted to make sure we would get you know all the people or at least not all because it's it's hard but a lot of the people that really loved um my mother and that and that my mother supported or who supported my mother and there's a bunch you know from Remo Ruffini to Pimcia Prada tonight to Pier Paolo a lot of like designers or company owners that had a relationship with her. And then we wanted to meet with like the local crowd and expose what we're doing, you know, to the, to people in the region.

30:41We really wanted it to be like a global event. And the two of them, obviously, you know, with their leverage in the different regions and in the different fields are... You mean Her Excellency Anna Winters. So what does good look like at the end of tonight? What are you hoping will come from the gala? Well, the plan is basically to make a big endowment, to make this study advance much faster, to start a collaboration potentially in a study also here in Qatar with Robert's leadership and all the local scientists because Qatar is big in genomics. It's very advanced. country, as you know, on scientifically and on many other levels.

31:28And then to repeat this again, and, you know, next time we do it, show what we've achieved and keep going. I mean, I would really like this to become my mother's legacy, but also my legacy, because I've been so interested in this field and I've found what we do so rewarding that, you know, who knows, maybe one day my son, I have no expectations of my son differently from a lot of parents. I think he should just be and do whatever he wants. But if he feels like this is something interesting to him, I'd love this to be continued. Because in 20 years, we'll be, God knows where we'll be, we'll probably be able to cure 100 times more conditions that we do right now.

32:10How old is your son? Four. Has he had one of these scans? He did. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, both me and my wife before we had him, and then sort of to cross-check what could beat the risks. And then he had one. Wow. It's a real gift that you're giving to people based on your own experience to their mom. It's a really, really beautiful story. It's an act of love. I mean, she did, you know, I always believe you get remembered by what you do for others, not for what you do for yourself. And she's, I mean, I was on a set. I'm shooting a film in Rome right now. In fact, tonight I have to leave at 3am and go to set tomorrow morning.

32:50but this actress who has a small role in a film, Italian actress, comes to me and said, I have to tell you something. I went to a Prada show 15 years ago. I was so out of my league. I felt so embarrassed. And your mom saw me, had no idea who I was, and made me feel comfortable. And I have stories like this about my mother that come to me all the time. And that's truly, like, that's legacy, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Vogue is great, but I think that's more important. So just to wrap things up, the legacy of your mother is not just the work that you're doing, and it's also the impact she had on so many people's lives.

33:34When you're hearing from all of these people who come up to you, what are the common themes of lessons are that your mother left for others? I think believing in yourself and your potential. And she always used to say, you know, when people feel insecure about their thing, you know, someone would go to her and say, I think this is a little strange. It's like, yeah, but if it's not strange, it's not new. If it's not new, it won't matter. Just dare, you know, be courageous. Believe in yourself. We all have a huge potential, all of us. It's that a lot of us don't find a way to express it. And she was the enabler for so many people to express their potential, their creativity, their vision.

34:21Because her vision was truly seeing in others what their talents were. I mean, she obviously was talented, but that's one of the things in the movie. I'm like, so you keep recognizing genius, but you're not a genius, you know? Her genius was recognizing other people's genius. Well, first she says, who the fuck told you I'm not a genius? And then she says, but yes, that's what I do. And then be generous, be generous and enjoy it. Because I always remember when I was little and you asked me, how did that life feel? You know, I would be like, but this is amazing. Like when I realized it, like we're with Sylvester Stallone one night.

34:57And then we're with Madonna the other night. And like, what is this? And she's like, enjoy it because it can end tomorrow. And any personal thoughts you can share on grief and loss and particularly losing a parent? Yeah, I mean, it feels very unjust. But overall, for many people, life is unjust. Things happen that you have to reckon with. I feel particularly with respect to losing a parent or losing someone you love. I feel what really matters, and you obviously don't know sometimes when you're going to lose them, is to tell things to each other, to not hold back, to even if it's something you, you know, you wouldn't want to say, say it.

35:47Because I think what made me feel so resolved about this loss was the ability to tell her everything I want, you know, to having been able to tell her everything I wanted to tell her. Through that film. Through that film. In my case, it was a film, but, you know, it could be a conversation you have, you know, we don't want to say things to our parents. We don't want them to tell us things because it's always such a complicated relationship, even if it's the most beautiful, you know. But I feel being able to sort of have that directness, that honesty, when that moment comes, you know, I always hear so many people saying, I wish I told them this, I wish I told them that.

36:29I told her everything I had to tell her, she knows it. And I don't know, I'm not a, you know, I'm an atheist, but I hope she's seeing what we're doing. I'm sure she is. Thank you, Francesco. Thank you very much. And good luck with everything. It's really beautiful what you're doing. Thank you. The BOF podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.