Christopher Kane: Mulberry’s Heritage Is a Foundation, Not a Limitation

0:00Tammy Kane: Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

0:30Tammy Kane: This episode is brought to you by Macy's. The 90s are back in a big way and Macy's has leaned all the way in with pieces that take those classic silhouettes and give them a modern edit. We're talking oversized rugby shirts, relaxed denim, varsity jackets and vintage details on cuts that feel current and contemporary. Macy's has curated all the brands doing retro right, so you're not hunting across 10 tabs to build the look. You'll find Tommy Hilfiger, Coach, Kenneth Cole, Levi's, and much more. Head to Macy's to shop the retro revival trend, reimagined for right now.

1:10Tammy Kane: Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, September 18th. In 2023, Christopher Kane did what no independent designer ever wants to do. He closed the label he had spent 17 years building with his sister, Tammy. This was the man who put rubberized lace on the runway, who cut up saddle leather on a domestic sewing machine, and who found his ideas in the least obvious places. This Sunday, Christopher returns to London Fashion Week as Mulberry's creative director of women's wear. It's an unlikely pairing. Mulberry means Somerset leather, country houses, and the bags everyone remembers from the brand's buzzy Alexa Chung years.

1:59Tammy Kane: Christopher's world has always been more subversive. Catholic school uniforms, the strong women who raised him in Motherwell, and the bad cool girls who have run through his work for nearly two decades. But Mulberry needs something new. Two years ago, it was fending off a takeover bid, cutting nearly a quarter of its corporate roles and seeing sales slide. Under chief executive Andrea Baldo, Mulberry is rebuilding itself around Britishness and craft. And there are early signs it's working. Sales rose 23 % in the first quarter of this financial year. Christopher's first fashion show is the next and most visible test of that strategy.

2:44Tammy Kane: He sees the job as an extension of his idiosyncratic design sensibilities.

2:49Christopher Kane: Because for me, heritage is a foundation, it's not a limitation. So I've really worked with the heritage and taken parts of existing bags or things that have really resonated with the brand throughout the years to create something new.

3:03Tammy Kane: A few days before his debut at Mulberry, Christopher sat down with BOF's editor-at-large, Tim Blanks, who has followed his work since the beginning. They talk about the axe in his Instagram teasers and what his years away from fashion has taught him. Here's Christopher Cain in conversation with Tim Blanks on the BOF podcast.

3:26Christopher Kane: Christopher Cain. Tim. Can we call this a comeback? Yeah, I suppose. We're here at Mulberry, so it's been my first job since closing the company. So yeah, it's a bit of a comeback. Because I'm so happy, so happy to say welcome back.

3:45Tammy Kane: Thank you. I do love the little teasers you put on Instagram with the axe chopping at the tree. Yeah. You posted that image twice. Three times. Three times. Yeah. Okay, I only saw it twice. Tell me that. Tell me about that. What's the background of that?

4:01Christopher Kane: What's that story? So I think you've known me for a long time. I've always been very obsessed with science and nature and the whole idea of the tree and the idea of the upkeep of a tree and the maintenance of a tree. Obviously, we are working for Mulberry, which is a tree. So I really looked into the preservation of trees and things like that. So to produce better fruit, you have to fell it, you have to maintain it, you have to cut it back. So the axe was obviously one of the main tools as a tree surgeon to help trees maintain a healthy life cycle so yeah to produce more fruit you have to cut back so christopher kane designer slash arborist yes yes and jam maker well i've not got there yet but that's coming up with the mulberry berries there's a lot of um things we can do with the berries for sure but the axe is a motif in the collection that seems so significant that it made me think that maybe the axe was connected with the

5:02Tammy Kane: collection the idea of the axe was connected with the collection so we like a kind of chopping either chopping down or pruning or whatever which is a good point of reference because i have been

5:13Christopher Kane: editing heavily and pruning as you would say to like fine-tune this really clear message but also having like a blade like precision and i think i've learned that over 20 years in the business of really having heavy edit and just always trying and trying to be precise but yeah the axe is something quite symbolic for me in that sense yeah i've been reading back over your

5:37Tammy Kane: interviews over the year and i have to tell you you've got very good quote but one of the things that i was interested in in connection to this new this new role for you is when you said people just want newness yeah and i wonder how i wondered how inspirational that had been for you and in creating this collection for mulberry um when did i say that a long time ago a long time ago

6:00Christopher Kane: but it resonated it did i mean me and tammy as you know you've known us for a long time we've always pushed ourselves to not be trendy it's like a really dirty word for me because i just want to always do stuff that's very emotional very emotive in the present and me and tammy are always sourcing things that are not necessarily beautiful or they're predictable but I do think newness is something as human beings we always love we always like to see and for me this collection there's definitely like moments of fashion but it's ultimate ultimately very wearable and newness in the sense how we've worked with the leather, newness in the sense how we've worked for the heritage because for me heritage is is a foundation it's not a limitation so we've really worked with the heritage and taking parts of existing bags or things that have really resonated with the brand throughout the years to create something new did you feel mulberry was very coded i think when you're lucky enough for me to go to the rookery for instance in somerset where they make the bags um there was a lot of really beautiful archival pieces that kept popping up or and there is codes that not everyone will know but they'll see them and be like oh i remember that and that's always a nice nod to the the heritage but we've moved it 100 miles miles ahead in the sense that oh it's completely different but it has that that design line or detail but it's not obvious it's not like a logo driven brand right for me the collection is very focused on great cut great silhouette and obviously my love of leather which

7:42Tammy Kane: is i've always looked lower see obviously that's a that's a point that i think people are going to be fascinated by that um that mulberry codes which people remember from the bags i remember from alexa chung and yeah there was they had their little golden moment and then your codes are so otherworldly in effect well not otherworldly they're very much of this world but in in a very um in a in a way that was that was always so unpredictable yeah and almost perverse yeah

8:14Christopher Kane: in terms of fashion meantime we have always been like private detectives that we've always not went front of house we've always went underground and dug deep went to the basements and to be like to put like a idea and it's something that i love design to do that and And that's for me the best part of designing is to research. And it's something I learned at college from Professor Louise Wilson. She literally razor blade you, literally, if you came in with the same reference. So I was always learning to dig deeper, learn more, outsource. But the codes that you saw and you were mentioning, they're not obvious to the eye.

9:00Christopher Kane: but those heydays of the Alexa was, they were great times. But I'm thinking of growing up in Glasgow, Motherwell, where the football casuals, the Neds, you would call them, were wearing Mulberry with other sportswear brands like Chippy or even Burberry. All these things was an amalgamation of street culture, youth culture. So Mulberry was definitely present when I was growing up, but it wasn't the obvious bag. It was the rugby shirt or the football t-shirt. and the owner, who you know, Roger, was very regional in the sense that he would do things from London, but he'd also take them to the towns, the country.

9:38Christopher Kane: And it's something that we've picked up on is this town city country.

9:42Tammy Kane: Because I think, I do think of Mulberry as having that sort of country, the country, the British feel, you know, that sort of trad, country houses and things. And I think of you as being, I think of the Christopher Kane legacy as being quite gritty. But, you know, you would talk about, your shows were sort of an endless celebration of the bad girl. You know, the girl who was smoking behind the bike shed or something. I mean, all these girls who are a bit of a tomboy, a bit older than their years. Always. You know, really savvy, sassy. So curious about the mix of the country and your kind of urban.

10:32Christopher Kane: Well, I grew up in a small town in Scotland called Motherwell. And it was an industrial town. So I was very lucky to be immersed in this huge industry of the Ravenscraig. So there was always hustle and bustle. But I was always surrounded by the strongest of women, from my mother, who was the total boss, to her sisters. there was so many sisters and obviously I grew up with Tammy and Sandra who were ahead of their time when it came to fashion. Tammy was wearing Helen's story at the age of 13 and Versace and Sandra was often in leather jeans of crazy colours but I was always immersed in this very female-led culture and it did inform me in the sense that they were not fashionable.

11:21Christopher Kane: It was a very bleak background they were never fashionable so we never followed the rules of fashion and it sort of helped me going from Scotland to CSM which was literally like the craziest place to go in Charing Cross but for me like not following those rules was the best part of my experience at college and my early career which was we were like no we're just doing one idea and that's okay

11:49Tammy Kane: and if i if i could say one if i could choose one word to describe your own work it would be unpredictable because season after season season you just went places with stories and materials and things that nobody else i literally the the first collection was the exact opposite of anything that was happening in fashion at that time and it's not a it's not only fearlessness that that that kind of shapes it but it's also just a complete completely original thinking yeah in fashion which is why when I say welcome back my god you have no idea how pleased I am to see you

12:25Christopher Kane: back I mean that time off really gave me perspective into what I really wanted in life and what fashion and I still love fashion so that was it was a really tough time but it was also the best of times because you really have to embrace the highs and the lows let's face it the highs are there but they're very short-lived and the lows are there and they're also short-lived so that was but i'm very lucrative tammy who's my my stone my rock but she's like my lethal weapon as well and she's comes from the same background as me but also to have a woman who works so closely with you she can be like this is terrible are you mad and she says all the time so did you

13:05Tammy Kane: during the hard times yeah did you and i imagine that when you close even closing even the beginning

13:11Christopher Kane: Even the beginning when we started our business in Dalston Lane and that we resonate with that Roger Saul story because he was in his kitchen table. We literally were cutting up leather that was like made for like saddles. And the leather suppliers were like, how the hell did you cut this up and sew it? And I would be sewing it. We were a domestic sewing machine. But they were the hardest of times, but they were the best of times. So from those times of like being out of the business, I was always there.

13:40Tammy Kane: Did you know the leather wasn't appropriate for what you were trying to do to it?

13:43Christopher Kane: I just loved how shiny and black it was. It was the most blackest leather you've ever seen. But it was for saddles. So you can imagine how thick that leather was. And that's the second collection. But no one saw any of that background, the struggles. And no one, that's the thing about fashion. No one ever sees that, what designers and creatives go through. Because it's a tough game. But for some reason we're truly addicted to it. And we love it.

14:08Tammy Kane: and then no one also sees you know that was the beginning nobody sees the beginning but then nobody also also nobody sees the end so i imagine that must have been really i imagine that must have been very very heartbreaking um it was yeah how could how could you see a way through that

14:26Christopher Kane: do you know what me and Tammy never stopped during that period we're always working we're always interviewing we're always doing this we're always doing a project we're doing collaborations stuff ones that you never heard of but we were doing things to keep us going but also we were very lucky to um i think fashion has been for a really tough time as well so we were actually after covid people have really struggled and now we're starting to see hopefully the fashion get on track but it was a tough time for a lot of people so we did have that like i suppose similar similar feelings to other people but what misery loves company but again i had tammy i had mass milano I had lots of people to support me, but for me, it was great because I actually had time to research and do things and travel.

15:14Christopher Kane: So I saw a lot of the world that I hadn't seen before. Because Tim, as you know, it's life or death. Season to season is life or death. Every designer you've ever met, they've all had the same struggles. Next season. There's always a deadline that was last week. So to get out of that race for a little bit has been really great. because now I'm like I'm older I'm like doesn't phase me anymore so when Mulberry came calling

15:41Tammy Kane: what was your what was your response I mean I have to say it's not an immediate it's not an immediately it's not the most likely combination immediately it was that's why because it's

15:52Christopher Kane: surprise the element of surprise in the meantime we've never played by by the rules we've always done stuff that people are like oh what's why who what but mulberry has over 50 years of an archive of a history is very relatively young as a british brand but it for me british brands truly succeed when they're authentic and that's what we really want to bring to the brand is this authenticity of being british i grew up in very rural scotland but we're always very london centric me very like oh big ben blah blah cliche whereas me and tammy are like oh what about that street photographer in 1960 who photographed street kids in manchester how did they look or top of the pops that was the one thing we loved to watch but it was those things that we grew up around it was never like vulgar things like that but those parts of britain that have been untouched untapped the subcultures punk next to the tories brettan we're so lucky to be british in the sense that so much has happened in the fashion landscape as well as popular culture and politics or art

17:03Tammy Kane: music so very lucky to be british and and you know you punk fetcher royal family like all these

17:11Christopher Kane: all these things i saw that growing up because my sister and my brothers were very my brother was a mod one minute he was then a punk sandra was in the romantic with the most amazing contour blended makeup with the leather jeans but then in the background she was margaret thatcher was shutting down the steelworks which was the lifeblood of the whole community um so you saw this thriving bustling community of strong men and women that should have been decimated and it was really sad because you saw people's colour leave them. Sad.

17:44Tammy Kane: We'll be right back with more on the BOF podcast.

17:53Tammy Kane: This episode is brought to you by Macy's. The 90s are back in a big way and Macy's has leaned all the way in with pieces that take those classic silhouettes and give them a modern edit. We're talking oversized rugby shirts, relaxed denim, varsity jackets, and vintage details on cuts that feel current and contemporary. Macy's has curated all the brands doing retro right, so you're not hunting across 10 tabs to build the look. You'll find Tommy Hilfiger, Coach, Kenneth Cole, Levi's, and much more. Head to Macy's to shop the retro revival trend, reimagined for right now. Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward.

18:36Tammy Kane: So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the VentureX business card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX business card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

19:03Tammy Kane: you always embraced all those contradictions in your work you were able to you were I could walk away from your shows and see socio-political comment you know whether it was there or not I could read it and you probably didn't even think about it yeah but I could read that into it and that's one thing I think that that you know I think it's it's it's a it's a wonderful thing for a fashion designer to have because you like you like you like people you like to see people working in a context working in their time you know I mean how do you feel

19:36Christopher Kane: you're doing that with this with this collection to reference that point like I went to art school when I was 18 but I was watching tv I was watching noon tv I was watching Jeannie Becker and I was watching Elsa Clinch and I always remember the moment that stuck in my head was Hussain Shaliam and it was Central Saint Martins and I always remember seeing his collections and being like take my breath away because it was the opposite to what anyone else was doing but it was pure for me it was pure it was the rawest fashion it was the most beautiful I mean an airplane dress so that's what got me hooked that's what got me to London in the first place was like that moment and it was that thing of I outgrew Scotland and I had to get away but I don't even know what we're talking about I'm just rambling on because that was a moment where that really defined me to get

20:26Tammy Kane: out got me out but you you had such confidence I mean there was never a moment where I ever it's interesting because then I'll throw another quote at you I do think you need to be doubted in order to be creative I don't think I ever saw you doubt really no that's again that's like a

20:44Christopher Kane: louise wilson thing she would always hammer into you there's always someone more skinny more handsome more talented so you always need to be 10 steps ahead so you're always like oh god looking behind your shoulder but it was very healthy because as a very competitive industry that you do need to be top of your game somehow but for us it was like we we sourced crazy ideas from the most unlikely of sources and that's always been our strength because and when people leave our shows like you're saying they either love or hate it but at least it's never in the middle and louise was always like you never want to be in the middle so it terrified me people would need to love you or hate you but don't be in the middle do you feel that way now uh no luckily me and tammy have always been really nice people so we've always um we've got good friends in the industry but we've always been, we've worked hard to get respect and that's through hard work and talent.

21:44Christopher Kane: And yeah.

21:45Tammy Kane: You don't see what you've done at Mulberry as being a polarising thing then?

21:50Christopher Kane: No, it's been in a sense, we're still doing what we've always done. Love research, love fabrics, love heritage. But yeah, not use it as a limitation, but as a foundation for something new. but there's the collection looks really quite it's very wearable and people will be like oh that's different for him I'm like I've always done wearable clothes just not for everyone and that's

22:15Tammy Kane: okay too okay but are there elements that you think will make people I have you have you have you put in this sort of Christopher Kane poke you know the there is there's reference to my

22:27Christopher Kane: childhood and characters we spoke about earlier on and that's okay because it's very personal to me and I think that's good that's a good thing because it's sort of like a every collection I've done has always been a bit of a autobiographical look to my life or my childhood so that's okay so it's just part of the process but there is a lot of me and Tammy in there which is good uniforms we love we always grew up love school uniforms because we're brought up Catholic we always used to wear always had to wear a Catholic uniform school uniform so that's always TV there's so much tv and film in here and you know you love tv you're a movie buff i loved it too is there a bad girl well yeah there always has to be a bad girl a good girl and a housewife i love a housewife i love i mean yeah it's is i've never had you know this as well i've never had mood boards i've never pinned one person down because i've always just rip it off again so she's ever evolving but yeah those characters who stick in my head are ultimately bad cool girls modern strong thinking women and they that's what gets me going i mean you you you talk about

23:45Tammy Kane: louise wilson as being really really important yeah she was she touched everybody she was like

23:50Christopher Kane: lady mcbeth she'd sit with the black and she'd literally just poke fun at you it'd be great

23:57Tammy Kane: but um the the her notions about taste were always interesting and and and something that you were never scared scared of was bad taste and louise again said there's no

24:11Christopher Kane: such thing it's just different and that's okay and when i was in the college everyone was doing like a iteration of someone else but tim i was sourcing fabric from ridley road market where i I think in the same year they found gorilla hands. It was like getting shut down all the time. So I was sourcing lace trims and hosiery, cutting up for 50 pence, 20 pence a meter. I had no money. And then to show Louise Wilson this like overlocked, like hosiery mishmash call out and she was like, just make more, just give me more. That was a huge pat on the back for me, but it was also a huge slap in the face for everyone else.

24:55Christopher Kane: I loved it. But it's been a sort of pillar for you.

25:00Tammy Kane: Yeah. Kind of, I want to say sort of ambiguity, but I don't know if that's the word, but in this collection, what would we, what can we, can we expect to see that, that sort of fearlessness, you know?

25:16Christopher Kane: Yeah. You were mentioning about this whole idea of like, oh, what will people expect? It's been funny to hear what people are expecting. Because I don't think it's, it's not anything of the above. And that's good too. What have you heard? People are like, oh my gosh, it's like colour. I can't wait for all the colour. You're so, you do colour so well. I'm like, I love colour, absolutely love colour. But I'm really quite poker-faced. I'm like, yeah, yeah, sounds great. Can't wait. But yeah.

25:44Tammy Kane: Rubberised lace or something.

25:46Christopher Kane: Oh my God. Love rubberised lace. I've done it my whole life. But no, nothing like that. But there's, it's a very grounded and it's very beautiful tonal colour palette. But there's colours in there that are also very, a little bit dodgy when it comes to history or my childhood background or colours that don't really go together. So there's always that. And that's what you have to, the unexpected. But it's not like, it's very Christopher Cain, but it's also more better. It's the only way you say it.

26:16Tammy Kane: And we can't be any more specific than that.

26:18Christopher Kane: So the mind runs riot. Yeah. until that first girl walks out you know tim you know that when we we always use music as a code music is very important for us so to that first model walks out in that song or whatever that beat i mean you remember shakedown carol pop you were like what the hell from the cruising soundtrack and everyone was freaking out and that song still gets me gone but who knows it might be a moment like that but it might be not it might be something that's completely utterly the opposite

26:50Tammy Kane: and that's good too because another another thing you talked about in the past was making a show yeah into a moment in history so the show was always a moment in history yeah a show the show was always a very important thing for you and this is a this is a moment yeah because it's you for mulberry it's two english icons yeah colliding or cohabiting or whatever so um can you tell me anything about what you have planned to present this debut so we've obviously worked with

27:20Christopher Kane: new accessories and bags which has been great because obviously um i love to draw shoes and bags and i've always all to work with real like bag makers and working with the somerset team has been amazing but it's been great that the shoes and bags are really strong and it's a really clear message that no one's really like thought about but it's very relative to the brand and the subject so that's great um but also the woman or the girl i mean she she's up and down she's in and out she's town city country she's all of the above but um it's just when you see it you'll see it and when we really strip it back and really tone hone in and those two key ideas which we which we always did back in the day it was the strongest of collections because you really repetition for me is always something you really leave thinking about and repetition is good.

28:16Christopher Kane: So there'll be repetition in the best way.

28:19Tammy Kane: Well, it makes sense that with the passage of time, the cane girl is a cane woman. Yeah. The cane girl is a mulberry woman, I should say.

28:26Christopher Kane: Yeah, yeah.

28:27Tammy Kane: Nice. How have you changed with the passage of time?

28:31Christopher Kane: Gosh. Do you know what? I think that... Gosh. I'm much more focused on what I want and what I don't want. And I don't know, that's a really loaded question. Life is so different to how when we first started, there's so many other pressures, but I'm in a very happy relationship. I've still got my sister and my backbone. So I wouldn't want to change any of that and I'm still working. So that's great. And I'm in this great position now.

29:06Tammy Kane: You said quite recently something about stepping off the hamster wheel Oh my gosh, yeah And is Mulberry part of that or are you stepping back on the hamster wheel with Mulberry?

29:17Christopher Kane: No, I think this launch is something that we've done in our terms As well as the Mulberry team's terms We've really thought about it and processed it What we want and what we want to get out of it I mean Mulberry as you know has a long-standing um fans who buy the bags from the beginning and the bags are still doing really well but we wanted to bring in a new audience and that's great too because we want to keep everyone happy but it's great to bring in new crop new people and that's something that I hopefully will inject is a new audience to the brand but also keeping speaking of housewives the woman who's got that beautiful bag baseboard but she's it for years but I love a housewife so that doesn't deter me.

30:04Tammy Kane: While you were away you made art.

30:07Christopher Kane: I made lots of art. You made lots of art. Thank you. I'm still making drawings and yeah.

30:12Tammy Kane: You saw another you saw another avenue of expression for yourself you explored that.

30:19Christopher Kane: Yeah I did fine art at the beginning then went into fashion at the art school and I was in art school for six years but when you're at CSM you always had to draw it was your main way of communicating especially with the Howard Tang he is my first professor so he was he's an amazing Australian artist as you know so I was always focused on drawing but that was during COVID when the whole world stopped so

30:44Tammy Kane: could you imagine were you imagining at that time that maybe your life would be without fashion then

30:51Christopher Kane: never never never because i loved it i love it so much and so lucky to have met the people i've met worked with the people i've worked with travel to the place like it's just not an option and i'm surrounded with fashion as well my partner works in the fashion industry and people are like how does that work i'm like it's great because we really can help each other out highs and lows um but covid was a time for everyone to really reflect the glass of rosy like because it was like the unknown but painting was my resource to really express myself and enjoy my time so i asked you how you've changed how how how do you think coming back to fashion like this how do you think fashion has changed oh gosh i mean everyone's always banging on about oh there's no creativity I see so many creative designers out there.

31:47Christopher Kane: I'm always really perplexed to, I was in China recently and I was thrown back by the multitude of creative talents in China. So I'm like, there's always creative people. I think commerce, again, we need to sell bags or perfumes, but that's always existed. But to get, I always think of the pyramid, you always need that top, top tier message, that creative pro that creative gem to then feed it feed into everything else it's very successful so you're optimistic always always optimistic and i always can see the highs and lows and everything but at the same time like that's the kenny industry music music goes in and out that's the same arts in and out up and down but fashion i don't know like i'm like i like the down times

32:38Tammy Kane: do yeah one one thing one thing that hasn't changed um my last my last little quote to throw at you i'll always want to look at stuff that i'm not meant to yeah and that to me was the essence of christopher can you explored things that were so outré you know you explored ideas and and and constructs and fabrications and things that just were not remotely part of fashion's vocabulary yeah and that felt to me like an enormous an enormous inspiration one of it felt to me like it was so much part of your character that kind of slightly this kind of love of the

33:21Christopher Kane: taboo in a way yeah and i think i learned still there yeah always there i'm never happy if it's just so i'm always just like again middle of the road but i think i learned that young as well when we spoke about jean colonna or watching those tv shows of and i was only probably 14 watching a jean colonna show and i was like wow this is what fashion is but also it was using fabrications that were so like people laugh at or like who's gonna wear that or the helmet lines or ray kaya cooper or Mrs Prada like they were always forever doing something that no one knew they wanted

34:02Tammy Kane: I have to say while we were looking at the collection that you were tossing out these references that just were such vintage Kane references it just made me think that at Mulberry for everything I've ever thought about Mulberry you are still going to be looking at things that you yes but that's what britain does britain has that looking at things that

34:25Christopher Kane: you're not britishness yeah and we mentioned earlier on cynthia payne which was a reference i used in one of my earliest collections and it was just the funniest should explain who cynthia payne is cynthia payne was i don't know she would she she held a madam in a brothel but she serviced the whole of the upper class aristocracy but it was from a little small house in this quaint little place so yes that's okay and then i mentioned lady mcbeth like i love lady mcbeth so you can go from really high low because these women were real forces of nature and that's always exciting that and you were obviously in safari that cat sniffing the air like that gives me life juice

35:10Tammy Kane: that's what i want so to this day christopher kane is carrying the torch for cynthia payne yeah and we love her and we'll always love her Thank you.

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