Coldplay’s Guy Berryman Says He Makes Clothes the Way He Makes Music

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of The Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, March 28th. Guy Berryman grew up with an engineer's mind and a passion for making things. After studying mechanical engineering and architecture, he found global fame as the basest of Coldplay. But his love for making things never went away. And in 2020, he launched Applied Artforms, a clothing label that draws inspiration from utilitarian design, military garments, and mid-century modern aesthetics. Now stocked in over 50 stores worldwide, including Dover Street Market, the brand is growing slowly but deliberately with a creative process that Guy likens to making music.

0:53The way I make things is very much like we make songs, which is you throw ideas down and then you kind of listen to it, judge it, see what it is. It's a very sculptural process. And I think the way I make clothes is kind of based on just this inbuilt, ingrained process I have for making music. You have to understand, I'm on the studio floor, on my hands and knees, cutting, sewing, gluing, stitching. I'm not backing someone else's brand. You know, this is absolutely hands-on. This is kind of my baby. This week on the BOF podcast, I sit down with Guy to discuss the steep learning curve of building a fashion business, why quality and longevity matter more than hype, and how his creativity flows across creative disciplines.

1:40Here's Guy Berryman on the BOF podcast. Guy Berryman, thank you for inviting me to Amsterdam. It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. We talked about this maybe, I think it's been over a year ago since we had breakfast in London. And I first learned about your journey into the fashion world, your obsession with all things vintage and design. So we're going to get there. But I always like to start these conversations with a kind of personal journey and where you grew up and how you grew up and how you ended up doing what you do. I mean, everybody knows you from Coldplay, but before Coldplay, before one of the biggest bands of all time, like what were you like growing up and what were you drawn to?

2:32Well, I grew up in Scotland. I was born in a town called Kirkoddy, which is just north of Edinburgh. And what was I like? Gosh, I don't know. Just a normal kid, I think. I mean, it's funny, I spend a lot of time explaining to my kids now that, you know, when I was their age, there was no such thing as kind of computers or mobile phones or the Internet. And I mean, sometimes it blows my mind trying to remember, you know, life back then. But to them, it's just kind of incomprehensible. You know, we used to just go running across fields and we, you know, summer holidays, we'd disappear into the woods for like the entire day.

3:12And of course, you know, there's no way of parents knowing where you are or getting in touch with you or like having a, you know, there's no air tags. There's no like GPS tracking and monitoring. Yeah, so I think life was very different back then. And, you know, I just don't think as a parent now, I just wouldn't let my kids do the kind of things I was able to do back then. But at some point you were drawn to the world. like you were creative or something happened. You studied at UCL, which is I think where you met your band members. Yeah, so I moved from Scotland when I was 12 down to England.

3:54My father's an engineer and he was working on the Channel Tunnel. So we relocated to Kent so he could be near his place of work. I was at school in Canterbury. And when I was 18, I went to UCL to study mechanical engineering. Do you remember why you picked mechanical engineering? Well, I've always had an engineer's brain, I guess. You know, I sort of have my father's DNA. And I always liked to build things and make things when I was a kid growing up. You know, whether it was fashioning things out of things I found or building, you know, airfix models. I was always very creative and hands-on with making things and art and design in general.

4:38So for me, it was just logical to study engineering. My father used to work on classic cars and I used to help him restore them. So I went off to university to study mechanical engineering, thinking I was going to be building racing cars and building engines. But the reality was when I got there was very different. It was very much theoretical, a lot of maths, a lot of physics, and there was no kind of hands-on creativity. There was no making. And I think I would probably define myself as somebody who likes to make things. I mean, for applied art forms, of course, there's a lot of design process, but really I feel like I'm a maker.

5:17I like to work with my hands. And so I kind of realized that mechanical engineering was not really the answer. So I needed to switch course and find something which kind of corresponded with what I believed I should be doing, which is why I switched to an architecture course which gave me everything that I needed actually but of course an architecture course is a seven year long affair and by that time you know I'd met my bandmates and you know in the first couple of weeks of going to UCL and because I always loved music I was a musician I was a bass player as a teenager and always enjoyed playing in bands I had some hopes when I went to university that I'd be able to kind of connect with like-minded people to make music with as well.

6:07But I suppose I never really felt that it was going to be anything beyond just an outside interest whilst I pursued my qualification as an architect. And then? And then we enjoyed loving working with each other, you know, as a band. and we were excited about the songs we were writing and we really dedicated ourselves to it. And by the time the rest of the guys were finishing their degree after three years, I was just really getting into the architecture course and we were signing a record deal with Parlophone Records. So I had a choice. Yeah. I had a choice, okay, do I want to sign this record deal and go off and be a band or do I want to finish another five years of studying architecture?

6:56And of course, when you're that age, you choose the band. And with retrospect, you would choose the band because, of course, it became a success, but were you at all worried about it? I mean, because clearly it was a great choice, but you just went with the band. I just believed we were going to make it. we just kept working and doing what we needed to do and we took one step at a time and I just had this great belief that we were going to be able to turn our band into something successful and of course it was a very different landscape in the music industry back then it was before streaming and there was there was a much more formulaic way you could make a living as a musician back then it's a little more chaotic now with the way that the music industry works but back then there was kind of processes you could work through When did you know that Coldplay would be as huge as it is?

7:58Was there a moment you realised that where you're like, holy shit? Well our first song was Yellow that became a single and it was played on the national radio station and that was an exciting moment

8:21And all of a sudden everybody knew that song. Yeah. And so that was a very big turning point for us. But you never know. We were just excited to be doing what we were doing, but we could never have predicted we would be still together 25 plus years later. There's real endurance and loyalty and commitment that takes for a band to stay together for that long and continue to be successful. Let's move into the whole style quotient. So one of the things I've always admired about Coldplay as a band is there's a style element to it too. So at what point did that stylish, each of you has your own thing, it seems?

9:05Kind of. I mean, I think for the first couple of albums, if we had a photo shoot or a show, we would just turn up in whatever clothes that we put on that morning. And there was not really any care or love put into that. But now, you know, it's very different now. You know, we have clothes that we put on before the show and it feels like part of the ceremony of getting ready. And there's some kind of broad themes and ideas for each album. and we try and make outfits which kind of play into that. But it was really kind of, I think, on our third album, we decided or we had a conversation. It's like, you know, maybe we should think about what we're wearing and how we look together and you don't just turn up in a hoodie and you don't just turn up in jeans.

9:52I mean, we were just music nerds. We are music nerds and for us it was all about listening to music, devouring music and focusing on writing and recording music and we paid little attention to the style element of it, but now we have a little bit more of a coordination. Yeah, I mean, I think you and I are about the same age, and when I think back to the music stars I grew up with, like fashion or what they wore was always such a big part of the image. So at what point did you become a fashion nerd too? Because, you know, we were just talking through some things in there that in your showroom and you were clearly deeply immersed in this world now.

10:41And you're like, you know, really knowledgeable about fabrics and shapes and cuts and things. How did it go from being something you didn't think about at all as a band member to something that became strategic as part of the image of Coldplay to something that you really wanted to pursue as a personal passion? At the end of a tour in 2017, we had decided that we were going to take a bit of time off, a break. So 2018 was a year that I was looking at and just kind of wondering what to do with myself for a year because we'd never taken a break since we started. And, you know, I felt like I wanted to re-engage with a design process.

11:21I wanted to go back to engineering and architecture and, you know, some kind of design and manufacture process. And I think, you know, when I was studying, I always felt like I would end up designing chairs or lamps or houses or some kind of industrial design, I guess. And certainly not fashion. I wasn't thinking about that when I was studying. But I've been touring the world for 25 years. And whenever I go to a city, I just kind of gravitate towards flea markets and thrift stores and vintage stores. You know, I've never really been somebody who likes to go kind of shopping on the high street.

12:02And I've always had a great fascination with things from the past and particularly mid-century, 1950s, 1960s. So whether it's cars or lamps, furniture, architecture, clothing, this just seems to be this kind of era which I get really drawn to from a design point of view. So as I started traveling around the world a lot, I started building up kind of with no real plan. I started buying interesting garments, a lot of military garments and workwear garments, you know, so I wasn't really buying fashion, but I was buying things, garments from a point of, you know, objects of art. You know, some of these flight suits that I have or technical jackets from the Air Force or the Navy, you know, they're just incredibly complex pieces.

12:55And so I just started buying and collecting and building up this library of garments just because I love them. Not because I was wearing them, but just because I like them from a construction point of view. What is it about mid-century that you are drawn to that period of time? And there's so much talk about mid-century modern furniture. Just now when we were going through some of your pieces, a lot of them were from the 90s and 50s and that period. What is it about the design aesthetic or philosophy from that time that you're drawn to? Perhaps it was like a post-war freedom that was kind of filtering through society.

13:36I really feel like it was the greatest era for design. And of course, things were made very well back then as well. Things tend to be very high quality. But I don't know. It's a hard thing to pinpoint. But, you know, everything that sort of comes out of that mid-century modern era tend to just be drawn towards. So let's go deeper into the military aspect too, because obviously utilitarian styles and clothing have become a really important part of the fashion landscape. It sounds to me like you're more drawn to it from the kind of what it represents historically, the functionality, the fabrics.

14:18Talk to us about what you've learned about what it takes to make good utilitarian clothes. It's an interesting business, isn't it, fashion? For me, the designing and the making is kind of quite straightforward process. the wider business and the marketing and the selling. And I mean, that's where I find the real challenges actually. But what we do in the label is we tend to look at a lot of these interesting pieces and we'll tend to combine ideas from one garment from ideas with another to try and create something, which is a unique object. It's really important for me that I talk about utilitarianism and utility design a lot, but we're not a technical brand.

15:01I mean, I think I'm really drawn to, from a style point of view, I really consider applied art forms to be in line with like a Japanese street style. So it's a lot of wide pants and, you know, we're not a technical brand. We're not selling kind of hiking gear or performance jackets or whatever. Or the intersection of where those two things meet, right? Because a lot of those more technical brands have been edging into the style or fashion space. but this is more for you a style brand than a technical brand. Absolutely. Drawing elements from interesting design details. I mean, a lot of our outerwear is made from cotton, so if you go out in the rain, you'll get wet.

15:43But that's just how things were made back then, and that's kind of what we like. I like to use the design language from a different era but then update the silhouettes to kind of appear more modern. And so our blocks tend to be much wider, boxier fits and drop shoulders and so forth and so forth. But I think the utilitarianism element of it just comes from more a design aesthetic point of view than a functional point of view. Yeah. So 2018, you guys decide you're going to take a bit of a breather from touring and stuff. At what stage in that process do you say, oh, you know, I'm a hugely successful bass guitarist of a stadium?

16:23rock band or pop band, and now I'm going to start a fashion label. Well, it felt like a good idea, and I was passionate about all of the pieces that I'd collected, and I was wondering what the purpose of the collection was, and I realized it was just a big library of ideas and things to draw inspiration from. I mean, to be honest, nothing can prepare you for the reality of making and selling clothes. I mean, it's an incredibly brutal industry to be in and I think you can only survive in it this is what I've come to realize you can only survive in it if you're completely passionate about the process and passionate about garments and passionate about what you're doing it's a business unlike any other you know if I was designing a chair I can design a chair and then I can sell that chair for 50 years if I come up with a good design.

17:17But what we're doing now is we're making, you know, 50 products or approximately 50 products two times a year, working with a huge amount of factories and working with a huge amount of prototypes. And I can't think of any other business where there's that kind of cadence of product design and development. And also the kind of built-in cycle of making what was before kind of irrelevant or out of style or perishable in a way, which is why I think your kind of visceral connection to things from the past is so interesting because I think we have an industry that's placed too much emphasis on low-quality, disposable, ephemeral pieces.

18:07you know, and collections. So as someone who really appreciates old things, well-made things, well-designed things that last, how do you reconcile that with participating in this business model that forces you to like create 50 styles and in multiple color ways and then do that again every other season? Well, I think, so as I mentioned to you earlier, a lot of my archive, I would say probably 75 maybe 80 percent of the pieces I've been collecting over the years are jackets that's where my passion lies that's where all of our collections are built around the jackets that's why I really struggle with spring summer so do lots of British brands by the way because like it's easier to do the autumn winter absolutely I just you know everything kind of gets built up around the jackets and and what I found was with pieces in my collection you know some of the garments are you know 70 maybe 80 years old and what makes them so beautiful is the fact that they've been worn and they've been used for such a length of time that they develop this kind of patina and holes that you just really can't fake you know there's a real authenticity to the way a garment will age over such a long period of time.

19:29And I think when we started our first collection, one of the most significant pieces was this quite elaborate coat system, which we called the modular parka, which we made from ventile, which is a very kind of well-known British heritage fabric. And it had different liners you could zip in and zip out, and it had different collars you could... So you could basically customize this jacket about 50 different ways. And depending on which season you're in, you know, you can take the liners out if it's warmer weather and just wear the shell and so on and so on. And it was really important for that first collection that I designed and made something which showed quite a proficient high level of engineering.

20:13You know, it was really important to me that we didn't just kind of come out with a hoodie or a graphic tee or something like that. I really wanted to kind of bite down on some real engineering. and when we were kind of designing this piece you know in the process I was trying to figure out how is this going to look in 70 years time from now you know is there going to be somebody who buys this in 70 years time and appreciates it for the same way I've bought something which is 70 years old and I kind of you know covet it and we had this kind of idea of longevity in mind when we designed that piece and everything we do actually you know so I always feel like clothes actually get better the more you wear it and the more you kind of or like in the way a pair of raw denim jeans you know you buy raw denim jeans and then you spend five years making them your own yeah when you live in them they kind of become yours so I kind of feel that way towards everything that we're doing and I like the idea that everything that people buy from us are going to be with them for a long period of time.

21:15So everything, fabrics are selected and things are made well in order for people to keep them for a long, long time. So that all makes sense as a proposition. You mentioned just now that it's actually the business of fashion that you find the most challenging. Talk to us a little bit about the lessons you've learned about launching because I believe it started initially as a direct-to-consumer brand. You were like, I'm just going to... Yeah, I mean, I came in completely naively. You know, I didn't study at St. Martins. I didn't have really any idea about how the business worked. I just kind of felt you could make great products, make an Instagram account, make a website, and your product would kind of fly off the shelves.

22:02And it doesn't work like that. It was a pretty quick realization that we needed to start thinking about distribution models and, you know, having representation and stores and so on and so on. And even with your platform as a band member of Coldplay and the reach you have and the visibility you have, like that wasn't enough to get people interested? It's definitely opened some doors. It's definitely closed some doors as well. I mean, I think you have to understand I'm on the studio floor on my hands and knees cutting, sewing, gluing, stitching. I'm not backing someone else's brand. Right. You know, this is absolutely hands on.

22:48This is kind of my baby. Right. And I've always been very keen to not try and turn it into a story about me as a musician. A celebrity. Or being in a big band. Yeah. because I'm so passionate about the garments, the collections. And the most exciting thing for me is when maybe one of our partners, maybe it's somebody at Dover Street Market in Tokyo, will speak to me about, say, you know, this person came in and discovered the brand and bought these pieces or whatever, you know, on face value. Yeah, they have no idea who it's linked to or where it comes from. So that for me is the most important kind of discovery somebody can make for the brand is just purely on the face value of the garments and not because it's attached to any other story.

23:42We'll be right back with more on the BOF podcast.

23:51So back to the business of fashion. So you launch as a DTC and clearly it doesn't drive the kind of volume we were expecting. So how did you go about rethinking the distribution strategy and building awareness if that awareness wasn't going to be linked to your day job? Well, we started doing a trade fair in Paris, the Man Woman Show, which is kind of like a hole full of different brands, you know, smaller brands. So we tried that to try and get some interest from buyers from stores. And I would say that was a really pivotal moment for us because the Dover Street Market Ginza team were walking through one day and they discovered it.

24:34And they really liked what they saw. And they've been great champions of us, you know, for years now. And we know they have a very discerning buyer group. I mean, on my last group to Tokyo, I think I even wrote something about how just the mix of brands in there is like, it's really special. So that's like a big accomplishment for someone who comes from outside fashion trying to. Yeah. So I really, you know, I've got so much love and respect for the whole Dover Street Market family. And it really feels like a family now. And, you know, there was just one small anecdote, which is, you know, the kind of anecdote that you need every now and again to keep you going.

25:13but one of my colleagues from Dover Street Market, his name's Dickon, works in the London store. Dickon Borden. Dickon Borden, who's brilliant. He actually bought one of these modular parka systems and was wearing it in Paris one day and walked into a meeting with Ray Kawakubo, who insisted he took it off so she could spread it on the table and inspect all the details. Wow. And he reported back that the jacket got a big thumbs up from her. So that's the kind of story that you really need every now and again, I think, in this industry, which just feels like an uphill battle most of the time. She doesn't give praise easily, Miss Kawakubo.

25:54So I've heard. And she usually communicates in very short. You know, sometimes when you go backstage after a calm show, she just has one word. And the whole show has to be interpreted through that word. But yeah, to get the thumbs up from Rei Kawakubo is a big deal. So tell us about the state of applied art forms today. You know, as a business, what's your distribution? What's the customer that it's resonating with? And then maybe a bit about where you think it's going. Well, I think it's still relatively small. I think we have about 50 doors open now around the world. I think the most concentration of stores is in Tokyo.

26:36which I guess it doesn't really surprise me because that's kind of Japanese street style that I refer to as what we play into. So it doesn't surprise me this kind of Americana oversized wide leg trousers, boxy fits, works well in Tokyo. But we have probably great representation in most major cities now. So the volumes are still small. We need to grow. We need to kind of figure out how we can increase our distribution strategy. And, of course, that's never a straightforward thing because you want to grow at a rate which is organic and meaningful. And you don't want to kind of go too big too quick if you could even find a way to do that.

27:27So there's constant challenges on that front. I mean, I would say we have a new strategy coming up, which is for autumn, winter, 25, we will be launching two collections with slightly different styles and slightly different price points. Oh, yeah. I saw that at Antonia when we met up in Milan Fashion Week. Yeah. So we have a kind of what we're calling atelier collection, which is more sartorial, premium, made in Japan, made in Italy, which is kind of following on from what we've done so far. Because, you know, I think one of the most common discussions I have and the feedback I get from people who discover the brand is that they can't afford it.

28:11And, you know, we're not the most expensive brand out there, but it's definitely not a price point which is accessible to everybody. And I kind of carried that around for such a long time. And I just felt, well, this isn't cool. I want more people to be able to engage in the brand. So we're launching the Atelier Collection and the AAF Collection. So Atelier Collection is kind of slightly more sartorial, and the AAF Collection is more playing into what I call the Japanese street style. So graphic T-shirts, for instance, will live in the AAF Collection, and suiting and shirting will move into Atelier Collection.

28:53So we have a slightly different strategy coming up. I have a new business partner who is kind of bringing more grown-up business sensibility into the mix. Who's that? This guy called Rob Shilder. And does he come from the fashion world? He does. Yeah. And so I'm very excited about that partnership. He has great experience. And the main thing is it frees up my time to spend in the design studio, just being creative, because I felt for a long time I was doing the photo shoots, I was doing the styling, I was running the Instagram account. I was launching kind of marketing campaigns through Facebook business tools.

29:33I was doing the organizing. You know, there was just kind of I was getting spread so thinly across the whole business that I was I was kind of losing touch with the whole reason that I started it in the first place, which was to be creative and to make things. Yeah. So I'm very excited that we've got this new direction. We have new expertise. and we have a fairly, not all the details have been finalized, but we're working on a very good plan, I think, to increase awareness of the brand because awareness is still low. So I think we'll increase awareness and we'll start opening up more doors within the next kind of 12 to 18 months.

30:12So on the awareness side, I mean, now that you've got some real momentum and got some great stockists, is there any way for you to leverage the Coldplay platform? Like do you wear applied art forms on stage? And is that something that you do? And how do you think you can kind of merge those two without making them? No, I don't want to. It's two very separate parts. I mean, I do wear our garments. In fact, all of us wear our garments on stage. Oh, really? To different degrees. But for me, it's kind of, I just want to roll my sleeves up and build this as a sustainable business for the business, for the products.

30:49And if it's going to be successful, it needs to be on its own back. So as we conclude, I'm curious to go back to this idea of the value of old things. For all those young people out there listening, what do you encourage people to think about when it comes to acquiring and building a collection of things that last? well I like there's the term you know buy less buy better which kind of goes around quite a lot and I I think that's the simplest way of but I mean what I think is really great is somebody who likes to buy I mean I don't just buy vintage you know air force and military and stuff like that I do buy a lot of kind of vintage designer labels as well and I think one thing that's that's really great which is just getting more and more popular are used fashion platforms so like grailed and vintage.

31:46And I think gone are the days where you have to walk into kind of like a dusty thrift store to go and find a cool piece of vintage fashion. I think, you know, these new platforms are, have really opened up a world of, you know, used designer clothes. And I think that's a really great way of like building up a wardrobe. Do you buy stuff on there? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And eBay too. eBay. Yeah. You know, thrift stores, charity stores, flea markets. favorite vintage store in the whole world oh my god that's a tough one I mean the last tour we did to Australia and New Zealand was insane for me there was so many great stores in Sydney and in Melbourne I can't remember their names but I came back with I think you know 10 bags full of vintage clothes there I mean the Rose Bowl flea market I think is probably the source for a lot of the kind of cool vintage stores, you know, all over the world.

32:46Where is that? Los Angeles? Los Angeles, yeah. Have you ever been to Jantiques in Tokyo? It rings a bell, so I probably have. Near Nakamegurou, a Daikanyama area. I'm pretty sure I've been there because I recognize the name. But I mean, in Tokyo, you've got this whole area called Koenji, which is where I spend most of my time, because that has just the largest concentration of these vintage stores of all kinds. So I think it's cool that kind of young people are feeling it's kind of more acceptable to buy used garments. Even desirable because you get something different. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, you know, I think the famous Raf Simons is just a crew neck sweater.

33:30It says Nebraska on the front. I can't remember which collection it was from, but, you know, I think that's like 25 ,000 US dollars. Of course, that's an outlier, but I think it's super cool. You have cool platforms now where you can go shopping and you don't need to go and buy something new with a big branded logo on there from the high street. Lastly, as someone who I guess we could call a multi-hyphenate creative now that you're not just a musician, you're also designing and creating this collection, two elements that I'd love for you to just address. One is like, what benefit does it have as a creative person to have multiple creative outlets?

34:15And then secondly, how do you juggle everything and balance everything? It's a really good question, and it's something that I think that since I've been working on and building up applied art forms, I've become a better musician and a better band member. because when you're kind of putting all of your eggs in one basket creatively, I think you can overthink, over process. Having a creative outlet elsewhere has allowed me to not feel like I have to impose myself creatively into a band scenario. So I really feel like it has great benefits to be working on using different parts of your creative brain.

35:07And I think, interestingly, I think a lot of the processes that I've just become used to in making music are processes that I'm using to design and make clothes. and I think sometimes when I'm working with people who have been working in different fashion labels or whatever, I think they sometimes look at my process and kind of, their head kind of tilts sideways and it's kind of like, what's he doing? And I realized that kind of, I don't design something on paper, you know, I don't like design a pattern, design a garment and then it goes off to be manufactured. The way I make things is very much like we make songs, which is you throw ideas down and then you kind of listen to it judge it see what it is very sculptural process yeah and that's the way i think the way i make clothes is is kind of based on just this inbuilt ingrained process i have from making music it's like you're editing it's like you're kind of constantly sculpting and constantly editing and it drives everyone crazy because I just keep changing details all the time.

36:14I heard that about Kanye West too when he was working on his fashion label. Interesting. Maybe that's the same way when he was creating his music because as a musician you can keep editing everything until the last minute. You can keep trying. And I think I definitely burned through quite a lot of prototypes which is probably expensive. But I think there's definitely benefits to if you're a creative person to be working on, you know, different outlets at the same time, for sure. And the juggling? And the juggling, well, I think, you know, again, people say to me, well, how can you, when you go on tour, how can you work on the label?

36:50And, you know, for me, when I go on tour and go to cities, I'm just straight into the vintage stores. I'm picking up, I'm collecting, I'm thinking, you know, I'm kind of building up new ideas for new collections in my mind. So actually going on tour and traveling is hugely beneficial to the label. And of course, the other thing about being on tour is there's a lot of downtime. So, you know, you spend most of your day waiting for the show to happen in the evening. So there's so much time to, I mean, we launched the brand at the beginning of the pandemic. So I was living in the UK at the time and the design studio was in Amsterdam.

37:29So we had to quickly develop a kind of a working relationship over Zoom where I was kind of fixing and checking prototypes over Zoom. So that skill set benefits you now that you're back on tour and out in the world. So for me to kind of run the business part of the time from my computer screen is something I've done since the beginning. It was so nice to have a chance to hear your story. Thank you. And by the way, I think the product is great. Thank you so much. It's very, very well manufactured and well designed and well made. so it's not surprising to me that it's striking a chord especially amongst the most discerning store in the most discerning country in the most discerning city in that country which is Tokyo and so if it's making it and resonating in Tokyo then that says a lot so congratulations Oh thank you so much The BOF Podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria

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