Does Fashion Still Know What Women Want?

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. This fashion month, models walked the tightrope between fantasy and function. On the runway, we saw spectacle dialed all the way up, an armless dress at Alaya that gave straight jacket vibes, models with mouths propped open at Mason Margiela, and naked body prints at Jean-Paul Gaultier. Some critics have asked what feels like an obvious question, Do designers actually understand or even care how women dress in their real lives?

0:46To help us unpack this all, I'm joined by B.O.F.'s Diana Pearl and Kathleen Chen, co-authors of the recent article, Does Fashion Know What Women Want? Diana, Kat, welcome back to The Debrief. Thanks for having us. Hey, Sheena. So I want to start with the fact that we've had this very interesting fashion month, right? On one side, all these amazing and celebrated designer debuts, Mattu at Chanel, Demna at Gucci. And then on the other side of the conversation, there's this very subtle, almost backlash around how women were depicted on the runway this season. So Diana, give us your quick read. What didn't connect on that side of things?

1:24Yeah, I think that there were lots of shows that were very well liked. And obviously, it was a very exciting season with lots of debuts. But there was a theme that popped up at numerous shows that felt like just designers weren't really designing for actual women or at worst designing clothes that felt almost a little bit disrespectful to women. You know, you had Aliyah that presented a dress that without sleeves, like you said, it almost felt like a straight jacket. At Jean-Paul Gaultier, models walk the runway wearing these bodysuits that were printed with a man's naked body. So it's literally like disguising the woman and like presenting her as a man at Margiela.

2:03The models had their mouths held open with these metal like mouthpieces that looked very uncomfortable. At Courage, there were multiple dresses that covered the face. So it all felt either like it was erasing the woman or immobilizing them. You know, almost like in some ways like fashion is a form of torture with, you know, the mouthpieces to me looked a little torture device-esque. And obviously this is the runway. You know, a lot of these looks are sort of dramatized for the runway. But even if, you know, they're never created for sale or they're watered down to a more wearable version, there's still a message that it feels like is being sent with these looks.

2:39And obviously, these are looks for women. This is clothes for women. And I think when it feels like the designers aren't respecting women in their designs, that really strikes a chord, especially with, you know, female critics and the women who will ultimately buy these clothes. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this since we wrote about the collections right after Paris. And, you know, I was even looking at some previous seasons and kind of comparing the level of, you know, skeptical. And what we were saying is that this season, that sort of balance was off. And, you know, it did occur to me that I think if looking at these shows in a vacuum, I really don't think that, you know, somehow this year things were more preposterous than previous seasons.

3:28Like if we were to isolate each collection, like, you know, even the even at, you know, Margiela, the mouthpieces, you know, that was a nod to Margiela's logo. As a Margiela fan, I've always loved that very subtle, the four stitches, and that's what they were trying to replicate with the mouth guard. I think that there is an aesthetic explanation for a lot of the choices behind what we saw on the runway. But I think the reason why it struck a nerve this season is because of other sort of external circumstances, a confluence, a factor. One of which is that many of these brands are struggling financially.

4:11And the other thing is that there has been this sense of creative stagnancy where consumers haven't felt a sense of excitement with these labels that contributed to the financial piece of it, right? And so the fact that these designers had a commercial incentive to be more resonant with consumers and then creating these collections that didn't hit at that level, I think, made these collections so much more perceptible to be criticized in that way. Yeah, I think you make several good points, but somehow a few people connected these dots as being very anti-women. Where did that come from? Where did that start?

4:54I know one of the articles referenced in your story was Vanessa Friedman at The Times. Like, who were the people that were raising the red flags around what they saw and connecting this as kind of almost anti-female sentiment? Who did that? And what did they say? Yeah, I mean, it came from Vanessa Friedman at The Times, like you said, also Elizabeth Patton at The Financial Times, Amy O'Dell, who writes a subsect newsletter called Back Row. She also commented on it. And I think it is interesting that it was a lot of female critics that really noticed this. I do think maybe their lens is a little different.

5:26This is something they're a little more attuned to notice. But I think it was a lot of the same thing of just there felt like there was this disconnect between the designer's vision and what women actually wear. Or, you know, like I said before, kind of this almost a lack of respect for the woman who is buying the clothes, whether it's, you know, shielding her face or immobilizing her arms or her mouth or what have you. I think that that kind of came through. And those were a lot of the themes that those writers touched on. And also on TikTok, right? Like, oh, so, you know, it's always right on TikTok, on Instagram, a lot of just regular people sort of making this observation.

6:05Like, you know, this designer hates women when, and that was something that we, you know, discussed in the meeting when we were talking about, like, formulating the story. And of course, a lot of those claims are very much overblown. And that was a theme that we tried to explore in story, Diana, right? Where, you know, does fashion hate women? No, right? At least not at this like, very sort of black and white way. But it's very easy to villainize fashion as an institution, where there are all these systemic reasons how, you know, women have had this disadvantage, both within the industry of fashion and also as consumers of fashion.

6:52And there is a very important backdrop that we're talking about this in, a political backdrop where I think we're seeing a little bit of a backlash to some of that prevailing conservative sentiment. I think that's also playing out here. And then the body positivity bit of it, right? That's another thing that we didn't get into yet. It's that, you know, we're in the age of Ozempic and people feel like they're seeing their runway go back in another direction. How does that fit into the conversation? How does that drive some of this? I think it kind of just adds like insult to injury a bit. It's sort of like the cherry on top of just feeling like, okay, not only are, you know, some of these looks don't feel very, you know, realistic for women or like they really are designed with the woman in mind.

7:32And then you also have, you know, a parade of models that just have such a unattainable standard set for their body or, I mean, models that are all extremely thin and, you know, very unattainable for the average consumer. I think it's sort of just like adds insult to injury in a way. Yeah. I think that the lack of body diversity is a lot more alarming to me than this connection between like, oh, these very sort of conceptually hideous things on the runway and correlating that with like, oh, designers are trying to erase women. Like I see that as like more or less tenuous. I'm not sure if I fully agree with that claim, but I do think that the lack of body diversity on the runway is a huge problem.

8:23We saw a chart that was verified by a research firm showing the number of plus size or body diversity on the runway, basically just falling, you know, straight down from 2023 to 2025. And yeah, and I think that's something that we should really be talking about. And the other thing that comes up a lot, and I don't know whether having a woman at the top is going to change the body positivity on their runway, but this is like a prevailing conversation in fashion, which is that women make up the majority of the consumers of fashion. There's all these statistics that I think some of them we've heard over and over again.

9:00There's no one to point it back to like the 80 % of that women make up 80 % of consumers or something like that. But there's there's a plethora of research that shows we buy most of the stuff when it comes to the major fashion houses. There are not many women creatives at the top. How does that map out on the runway? And then would it be any different if there were a woman designing these things? I don't know. I think it makes everybody a little more prime to look at, you know, a design at like like the Alaya dress or, you know, the Margiela mouthpieces and feel like it feels sexist because it's coming from a male designer.

9:34I think if it's coming from a woman, it, you know, and what, like whether it, it obviously could, women can do sexist things too. Internalized misogyny is very real, but I think that it just, there's already this feeling of women aren't represented at the top. Women aren't the ones getting these big jobs in fashion, you know, of the, I think it was 15 or 14 debuts this season. Only two came from, from women. And, or in the past year, I think the only debut from a woman this season was Louise Trotter at Bottega. And again, like you said, I don't think it would solve every problem to have, you know, women designers.

10:07There are plenty of wonderful male designers who design beautiful clothes for women. But I think that it just primes people to be a little more on the lookout for sexism or feeling like it already exists in the industry. And they sort of, it's a little easier to notice when you're already primed to think that the industry behaves that way. A thousand percent. I think it was Robert Williams, our luxury editor at large that said on our show that the perception of design is very much colored by who presents it. And so right away when you know, you know, a woman in a, I don't know, a mouthpiece that's holding it open is just coming from a man.

10:43It might make you think of it differently. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I think that like intent really matters. And obviously like, even if that wasn't, it's not to say that just because it's from a man, there's ill intent, But I think it's easier for people, for women, to read it that way if they don't have, you know, the explanation. They're not inside their head in that sense or that sort of thing. I also think that, you know, there is a track record of media at large, whether it's institutional media or just online discourse of being pretty unfair to women and female creative directors. like people like Virginie Viard and Maria Grazia Curie and the sort of criticisms that they've faced around being, you know, maybe boring, even though they've had great commercial success.

11:34We mentioned that in the story, but it's difficult because that dynamic is hard to point to in a quantitative way. Yeah, I want to talk about that tension a little bit, actually, Because you said this earlier, which is that people wanted to probably see a more wearable runway this time because of all the pressure to be commercially viable. And maybe that's driving some of the criticism. Why is it that when women do that as designers, they get this boring label? Have we gotten any further understanding why that is? Yeah, I think it's such an interesting and like a fine balance between, you know, like we say in the story, fantasy and function.

12:10Like fashion is obviously like at its core, especially luxury fashion, about creating a fantasy and, you know, getting people to dream. And that's what justifies the, you know, the high prices and that sort of thing. But at the same time, fashion is also a functional object, especially for the women wearing it. I think that, you know, a male designer and a woman's designer designing women's wear, they obviously approach it from like two different life experiences. Like women actually know what it's like to have to live their lives in these clothes. I'm sure that informs their design choices. I think male designers can bring in a little bit more of like a, I guess, like on the outside perspective, because they're not maybe wearing the clothes that they're designing.

12:47I think that both approaches have their advantages. But yeah, I definitely think that it's this fine line. And I think that women oftentimes, just like in our society, I mean, this goes far beyond fashion, are more vulnerable to criticism. And, you know, people like, pick a little bit more. And so I think it makes sense that, you know, we see that come through in fashion, too. It comes through in a lot of different industries. Yeah, women have to always break through this perception of being frivolous. Yes. In every single industry, right? In literature, in art, certainly in fashion, like, you know, Rei Kawakubo is like a great example of a female designer who has operated at this like very high concept level for decades.

13:31And she's a legend, she's an icon. But there are so few female designers that have been able to achieve that kind of acclaim. And the more that I think about that, the more I'm just like, that's kind of fucked up, right? Totally. Because I do want to, my first inclination is to defend the artistic license of the designers that we saw in Paris, in Milan, especially as they are carving out their vision, like for the first time, their debuts. And I want to say, hey, like, this is fashion, like, you know, go nuts. But then I'm like, the more that I think about this history of, wow, there really hasn't been women held in this kind of regard, the more I'm just like, I don't know, there's just so many different angles that we can approach this conversation.

14:29And another piece of it that we touched on in this very short story is that in New York, there's always been this very commercial angle. And in New York, there are more women-led brands. And New York has always felt like the less serious younger sibling to Milan and Paris, right? But it's a lot of these New York-based brands now that are driving growth in fashion because it's women designers designing clothes for women. And that's what I've been hearing in the social circles that I've been in in the industry. And I'm sure, Diana, you've heard the same things, especially in the last two seasons.

15:17Definitely, definitely. But on that point, where does the spectacle actually fit into the equation? Right. You mentioned some of the even the backlash that some of these designers got came from TikTok cat. Right. So there is an element of what you send down the runway needing to succeed on TikTok or Instagram, needing to make someone pause when they're scrolling. What is the right formula of spectacle on a runway versus commerciality and how do designers strike that men or women? Yeah, I think that there's a balance that definitely can be achieved. And we see brands do it. I mean, I think Mathieu's Blasie's debut for Chanel is a great example.

15:54Those clothes felt very wearable. But at the same time, you know, the setting in the Grand Palais with all the planets, you know, it felt very otherworldly. And, you know, there were pieces that were fun and not something like the fringed hats that, you know, you probably wouldn't wear that on the street. But then the skirts or the dresses felt wearable. They felt like something people could wear in real life. Kate is a New York brand, like Kat referenced, run by a woman that I think is really known for creating these great sweaters, jeans, pieces that feel really wearable. And their shows always feel, you walk in the room and there's always like a mood and a setting and they work hard clearly to set that stage.

16:32But then, yeah, the clothes that come down the runway are maybe not how people would style it in their day-to-day lives. It's maybe a little bit more dramatic, but there's pieces that feel very wearable. And I think that just there's there's definitely a way to marry both. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I actually don't, you know, maybe there there doesn't need to be a spectacle at all. Like for the biggest brands in the world, there is, of course, immense pressure to be culturally relevant. But I think for smaller niche, like cult following types of labels, a lot of New York City brands going after your customer doesn't require these like big viral moments.

17:18You know, it's really being in the same room as your customer and catering to them. And there are designers, Kat, that probably do a good job at this, that land somewhere in the middle, that have a little bit of maybe bells and whistles, but they're very wearable, right? And even in a market like New York that is sometimes accused of being too commercial. Yeah, absolutely. I think that for these smaller brands that have a very specific customer segment in mind, it's really not about spectacle. It's about being in the same room as their customers. and brands like Kallmeyer in New York, TWP has done a really great job of it.

17:57And even, you know, Simone Belotti's debut for Jill Sander, I think that collection achieved that, you know, really laser focused on that Jill Sander woman. I thought, you know, that was fantastic. A very commercial vision, but also so just aesthetically on point. I would be remiss not to say, I think a lot of these though emerging designers struggle with this, right? Like if you're doing a runway show, you're probably already not in the room with most of your customers. Like how do you get that to translate from the 100 people in that room to the people that are going to see it on social media?

18:35I think it's very hard to break through that noise. I think it's a real, it's a real challenge. I think there is an, there is a place for some spectacle. I just don't know if there's, I don't know that it has to be people in straight jackets necessarily. I think even just like really good styling on the runway can make such a difference, like unique styling or, you know, like I feel like for me, a show resonates the most when I see like every model. I'm like, I would want to wear that. Like, that's just so chic and that sort of thing. And obviously, like I'm a woman, so I'm looking at it through the lens of like, would I wear this or not?

19:06But yeah, I think that good styling can make a big difference, too. and beauty right like you could play i'm sure women um creatives think about the hair and the makeup and the other things that gets a woman's attention that's beyond the clothes that puts the whole thing together that's a big part of the equation too totally and good staging and like and really putting on a show i think if you like have all those ingredients and then just like good clothes that are styled well and that sort of thing it does add up to a nice experience that you know people enjoy and get people excited about a brand

19:40we'll be back with more of the debrief right after this

19:50so i want to switch to this little lightning round version uh that we've been doing lately on the debrief which is like you know your your moment to give us your best consultative advice quick and dirty i think fashion by the way is going to continue to probably reflect where we're at in the world. So you're seeing a lot of the tension between equity and all of these things play out in real time in the industry. I think the consumers are reacting to it. The editors are reacting to it. And it's just bigger than our industry even is. So Kat and Diana are CEOs of a fashion brand or a major one. Let's make it a major, major fashion brand.

20:25What are two structural changes you'd make tomorrow to help ensure that the design process centers on women's lives? So at Diana Pearl, I don't even know what's Diana Pearl, LLC, women's ready to wear brand to structural changes you'd make tomorrow. I think I would start hiring more women is always a good place to start. You know, there, I think there's some statistic about how like 75 % or, you know, I'm the majority of fashion school graduates are women. And then that's not represented in the top ranks. So I think, you know, supporting women in their careers, hiring women, and also just like listening to women.

21:05So I don't know if that's like a structural change, but whether it's doing focus groups, talking to your consumer, you know, listening to the feedback you get on social media, I think that's a reason that a lot of small brands are able to like a, like a Kalmy or a TWP, they have that close relationship with their consumer. They know what they're looking for. You know, I think that just like listening to the customer and also just really respecting their opinion, what they say, understanding what their practical needs are and how that fits in with the larger dream and creating that fantasy. I think really just listening to women both internally and externally is like the number one most important thing.

21:41I agree with that. I would say like I think internally is where in terms of like the most efficacy one could achieve is like inside my company, I can improve the lives of my employees the most, right? And that's where I would start hiring, benefits, mentorship. And then beyond that, I think female interpersonal relationships, that is a very interesting topic that I'd like to explore because we talk about sexism at the workplace, but then there's also a lot of, I think, internalized sexism among women. Like, we haven't talked about this at all in this episode, maybe before another time but like I've been thinking a lot recently about the way that we antagonize like the girl bosses of the 2020s and how actually all the like the DTC male founders were pretty much like unscathed like still today and I've been thinking a lot about this and now we've seen like some of the girl bosses returning but that was like pretty it was pretty nasty how the media was so culpable in just being so eager to like put those women down and like I feel like we were all like sort of complicit in joining in on that very reductive narrative and I think this This is a big topic that like this like progressive media rhetoric hasn't really confronted with nuance.

23:19And I think that this is like the next big feminist topic. I think if Brian were here, he would assign you that story. I'm not in a position to say you should write that. But that's a cliffhanger for the next episode of The Debrief to unpack. I also have another lightning round question. If both of you, outside of your Diana Pearl LLC fashion women's wear brands and cats brands, if you were advising a creative director tomorrow, what would your 90-day plan to prove you understand what women want to buy? What would that plan be? 90-day plan if you were the consultant to a creative director right now to prove that they understand what women want to buy.

23:57I mean, I think it kind of goes back to what I was saying before. just like, I mean, I want them, I want that creative director in the next 90 days, like talk to a different, like every day, call up one of their like top clients and like have an hour long conversation with them about, you know, what they're looking for in their clothes and, you know, what has really hit the mark. And cause I think there are just little things of even like, you know, does this bag hold your laptop? Do these pockets of the jacket, can it fit your phone or, you know, are, is the, the like the line okay the fit like I think really just talking to people is the most to women specifically is the most important thing like I said before so I feel like not to just repeat my answer but I think that that would be the 90-day plan and then I guess yeah at the end I'd be like give me a report or something.

24:46No I think that's great you're doubling down on what I think is the important thread here it was something that funny enough in the Kim Kardashian cover story she talked about this to me that she does these tests in the fitting room where she checks for back fat and like that a man would never, may never think to do that, may never think to do that. And maybe he's not asking women. Sergio Hudson, I didn't mention him earlier, but as a man who designs women's clothing, he talks a lot about this. It's not just talking to women, but different women. Like he dresses Sunny Halston, like a host on The View.

25:16He dresses WNBA women, like the ability to broaden the aperture of who should be in the conversation as a woman, I think is also important. Kat, you get the last piece of advice. You're the consultant. Okay. I'm so glad because I've been thinking I would have a very specific assignment. I would say to my creative director, okay, go to the data team and they will give you whatever information you would like about the last, you know, five, 10 years of sales data of customer insights. And then I want you to take this data and create for me a profile of our customer or two profiles of two customer archetypes.

25:53And then based on those two profiles or one profile or five profiles, give me a model, like give her a name, give her a job, and then create a set of products for her. Really just imagine that customer, imagine her lifestyle. What's her income bracket? How much money is she going to spend? And what is she going to buy? And how are you going to dress her? Oh, that's good. You are hired, both of you. I think it's - You start Monday. Also an important note that just like women aren't a monolith. Like Kat said, like there might be like, you know, like you one brand could have one type of customer.

26:29Another brand could have a totally different type of customer. So it's not I think that's why it's really about listening to a larger number of people like thinking about, OK, what's this woman's lifestyle? Like it's not not all women are the same. Not all women want the same thing. So it's really important to to remember that as well. And some women may want a straight jacket or to wear a man's naked body as a bodysuit. You never know. Diana and Kat, thank you so much for joining today. Thank you, Sheena. What a fun conversation. Yeah, thank you, Sheena. Please be sure to check out Diana and Kat's article, Does Fashion Know What Women Want?

27:03at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.