Edward Enninful on Moving From Editor to Entrepreneur

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOFest podcast. It's Friday, September 12th. This week, former editor-in-chief of British Vogue, Edward Ennenfall, unveiled EE72, a new media platform and consultancy that blends a print magazine, a slow digital publishing platform, and a creative agency to tell fashion and lifestyle stories through the lens of culture. EE72 for me is a combination of everything I've done in my career. It's really where I wanted to be now. I wanted to move away from a master's head, where I'm sort of confined, if you want to say.

0:47I wanted to be free. I could have created something that was very avant-garde, very sort of specialist, but I wanted something that any woman could pick up, any man could pick up and feel welcomed. That was very important to me. This week on the BOF podcast, just as his first cover was being revealed online, I sat down with Edward to discuss why he launched EE72, what it means to build a fashion media company at a moment of existential challenges for both media and fashion, and how his newfound freedom is shaping his strategy and creative decisions from a quarterly publishing cadence to choosing Julia Roberts as his first cover star.

1:29Here's Edward Annenfoll on the BOF podcast. Edward Annenfell Hi, Emma Welcome to the BOF podcast Literally one minute ago The first issue of 72 Yes Went live Yep, it went live I know you don't have time to see the reaction just right now Well, I'm quite glad I'm here with you I'm glad you're here too This is a conversation long overdue Long overdue How do you feel? You know, I feel good. You know, I've had sort of almost, yes, almost two years to sort of find my way, post my last job, start a new company. But I'm really excited, I have to say. I'm really, really excited now. There's a lot to discuss.

2:27I mean, when do we start? Well, where I want to start, actually, is thinking about this shift from being an editor to being an entrepreneur. So this is your first issue. But the magazine is only part of what you're building. Yes. You have this background starting in styling. you know, ID Magazine, W Magazine, Editor-in-Chief of British Vogue. Talk to me about the decision to leave and what you were looking for in your next incarnation. Yes. I mean, as you said, I feel like I've been around forever, but I have been in this industry since I was 16 years old, like you said. Worked at ID where I learned the craft, you know, I learned how to put a magazine together, literally, you know, from the advertising department to writing, styling in the covers, writing the shopping pages I learned on the job.

3:35And then, of course, later, Italian Vogue, then American Vogue, like you said, W and then British Vogue. I feel like 72, E.E. 72 for me is a combination of everything I've done in my career. It's really where I wanted to be now. You know, I turned 50 and I decided I needed another challenge. I needed another challenge. I wanted to do something for myself as well as the community. And really that's what propelled me to where I am now. And when you think about the community, Who is that community that you're thinking about as you move into this next iteration? I mean, the community for me is people who love the idea of sort of creativity, people who love, you know, culture, people who love fashion, beauty, luxury, but also people who have really followed me my whole career.

4:36because I think I'm one of those people, you know, I've had so many, so many sort of incantations of who I am and just people who are kind of open to sort of inclusivity and being open to what the world has to offer, really. What were you looking to change from what you did previously? Because, you know, in this role, you've made it very clear that you're not operating as a stylist or an editor. You are the chief creative officer. As you thought about this step, what was it that personally you were looking to achieve? What was the challenge you were looking for? For me, I wanted to sort of create a company that was based on empathy, because that's always something that's been a part of who I am, was based on inclusivity.

5:26And I wanted to have a team of people that, you know, we've been around. Sort of, you know, use the little knowledge I have to help shape sort of who they are. And also a company that really is quite disruptive in a way. But right for now, I wanted to create something that wasn't just an old media company. Had I wanted to do that, I would have probably bought one of these many titles that are sitting around and trying to inject a life into it. But instead, I chose to go the difficult way and start something from scratch. But someone like you will understand, because what I wanted to do really was to just not be tied down by rules.

6:07I wanted to be able to learn, make mistakes, pivot when I need. So that's how EG72 was born. And yes, it's sort of three arms, if you want to call it that. The first arm is a platform. And when I say platform, it's not a magazine website. It's, you know, where I really would love community to gather, where we can have sort of, you know, podcasts, live alongside editorial, live alongside, you know, commerce, sort of the heart of the ecosystem. And then in the beginning, I thought that was all we were going to do. We were going to do that. Of course, we have an arm that's a consultancy arm, which is really what I've done my whole career, sort of consult with clients.

6:52So as you see, you know, we did a consult, you know, I did a collaboration with Montclair that was about design, working with in the art world with the Tate next year, sort of curating a 90s exhibition. So that's culture. So we needed that arm. And for me, I never thought I would go back to creating a magazine. I mean, we all know the industry now. I never thought I'd create a magazine. But then everybody who heard that I was sort of creating a company was like, is there a magazine? We need that from you. So I thought, OK, but how do you create a magazine in a time where everyone's saying, you know, magazines are done?

7:28First of all, I knew I couldn't go to the grind of 12 issues. No, people don't need that from me. But what I thought was to do something that was quarterly, something that was really about creativity and really give, you know, voices to sort of, you know, the young, the old, you know, feature covers, you know, icons meet with me sort of new generation, just sort of give the industry something that I feel is new. Also, I wanted to move away from a master's head where I'm sort of confined, if you want to say. I wanted to be free. Free from what? When you're not? No, free from, you know, sort of meetings.

8:11You know, you can't do this because, you know, commercially it might not be viable necessarily. But I've never really listened to that anyway. I've never really listened to what was commercially viable. I always went with my instincts and somehow they paid off. And, you know, just freedom, just being able to do whatever I feel is right in the moment. Yeah. Not commercially viable. There is not a single advertisement in this issue. How do you make a company like this work when there are no ads? Yes. So this is the interesting thing. First of all, I wanted to create a magazine that was about, it's about creativity, sort of give the reader sort of the experience of going through a magazine without being interrupted by advertising.

9:03I wanted to, you know, give that experience of what it felt like for me when I started in the industry, which is just, I want just to breathe creativity. So really, it's a love affair to print, the first one. And the reason why there are no ads is, I mean, you know, I also wanted to sort of, I sat down for a while with my team and we wondered, how do you create a company, a magazine, you know, I mean, I think first of all, I have to say that it's not magazine first, right? It's a platform, the platform that's powering this magazine. how do we work with clients in a way that's new and holistic so we thought you know what let's work let's create partnerships so the partnership that wouldn't necessarily rely on an ad page but why don't we do a podcast together why don't we create a video together why don't we have an event together so even though you don't see pages it's powered by some of the most incredible companies out there, but it's just...

10:15I'm not saying that moving forward there won't be ad pages, but they'll be part of a holistic package. But for the first one, we've been lucky enough to work with partners who just... We're doing these events in New York. We're partnering with them. We're partnering with Google. We're working with Tiffany. We're working with Levi's. But it wasn't like, give us an ad. It's like, what can we create together? For me, that's the way of moving forward. Is that something that you heard from the market, that that's what these kinds of companies are looking for? Are ads basically not? No. I mean, you know, it is the fashion industry.

10:49Like I said, ads are important. And moving forward, you know, we will accept ads. But it will be with, you know, sort of as part of a holistic package. And for me, it just feels like that's what's right for me and my company. I can't speak for anybody else. But it's working really, really well for us. So, for example, in this first issue, we were just flipping through it and there's a shoot with Adut Akej, our friend, for Montclair. And that kind of brings us to the second pillar of this company. So there's the platform bit. The second pillar is this kind of consulting firm, agency. what kinds of things are those clients looking for from you?

11:32And how do you then take that and then interject it into the platform, the magazine and the kind of the media? I mean, I think what they want from me is like, it's my point of view. I've always had a very strong point of view about sort of fashion, about culture, about, you know, beauty. So that's the point of view that they want. I mean, taking Montclair, for example, we wanted to create sort of a collection that was really about my history in fashion, what I like wearing, what I like to project. So that was sort of, we did that. We didn't even think what was going to come out of it. It was a genius project.

12:11And then from there, we were like, oh, my God, this has worked out really well. So Montclair and I decided, OK, now let's go to the Met Ball. What does that look like, E72 and the Met Ball? So we went to the Met Ball, we dressed Serena Williams, we dressed Alicia Keys. So we went as a team. So again, that was something new that we worked on together. Then we worked on the ads, billboards, everywhere. So each client is different. But what I'm saying is it's a conversation. It's something we create together. And then essentially what we did with Montclair, what we will do with clients in the future, then goes into the magazine.

12:51But I'm not saying to one Claire, give me a page of ads. You're creating some editorial, some content or some... Exactly. Content's so important. And, you know, like we said, you know, there are videos coming. We're partnering on an event in New York, you know, for the launch of E-72. So there's all these interesting ways of working with clients. And they seem to be loving it as well. And I feel like, you know, the old way of just being in print magazines, I'm not sure how that works anymore. But I'm saying for my company, this way of working is so exciting. It seems very exciting for clients.

13:31So apart from the lack of advertisements, which I think is genuinely different, this doesn't seem all that different from what you did at British Folk. Like events were a big part of what you did. You worked with a lot of clients. You did the Forces for Change project. How do you see this as being different from what you did there? For me, what is different about it now is it's even more of a conversation for me. It's like, what events do I want to have? As opposed to what events does a company need to have? What kind of videos do I want to see with my company? So it's more, maybe it's even more personal this time around.

14:12Does that make sense? So outside the corporate confines of a Condé Nast, you can go with more of your instincts. Yeah, and also, like I said, make mistakes. So I might say, oh, my God, maybe for the next one, somebody's going to come in and challenge me and say, you know, we want to do 10 pages, and this is the reason why, and we can have a conversation about it. But what I didn't do this first time I ran in was houses, which I didn't go around to any houses to ask for ads, because in my head it was clear what we needed to do, how we needed to start. And, of course, we're going to grow and things are going to change.

14:47And we're going to be sitting here in a year's time, and you're going to be saying, why are there so many ads? But it's the whole idea of growing organically. And even talking about the platform, we're not here to build a platform with all information, all times of the day. It's going to be very specific. When we have something to say, we will say it. I call it slow digital. We're going to learn. We're going to sort of, yeah, not build something ginormous. waiting for people to come. You're not feeding the internet beast. We're not feeding that. We're not doing that. So if it's not British Vogue, that's kind of the model.

15:28I mean, I'll tell you the model. I mean, to be honest, I wanted to create a magazine that was a combination of everything I've done. I was the ID for 20 years. So we had to have that sense of youth and cool. So that's got an aspect of that. I was at W Magazine, Italian Vogue, with a sense of narratives and beauty. so that had to be a part of it and then I was at the you know British Vogue American Vogue where we had to marry creativity and commerce so everything I've learned over these years resulted in 72 magazine but I wanted to create something that was welcoming to sort of people inviting and I didn't want to really create something that was I could have created something that was very avant-garde, very sort of specialist.

16:14But I wanted something that any woman could pick up, any man could pick up and feel welcomed. That was very important to me. So this is not some highfalutin fashion magazine? No. For me, it's about culture. It's always been about culture. Even the work I did at British Vogue was always about culture. How do we tell stories about fashion? How do we tell stories about architecture, film? How do we tell stories about food? but through the lens of culture. So for me, I've always been about culture anyway. It strikes me when I was looking through it just now and thinking about it yesterday that it's more like a How to Spend It style magazine or a tea magazine, that they take a broader cultural lens than just going through the lens of fashion first.

17:04I mean, to me, even British folk, I never really took to sort of look through the lens of fashion. It was always culture. It was with the politicians we featured, the women we featured from all backgrounds, you know, all ages, you know, women from different religions. For me, the world is such an incredible place that it was always about culture first. And I've just carried that on, really. It doesn't feel like something new. And also, you know, I wasn't, I'm not out here to reinvent, reinvent the wheel, but I just wanted to really sort of use everything I've learned over the years or everything I've loved over the years.

17:46Right. And have it all in one place.

17:51We'll be right back with more on the BOF podcast.

17:58So let's put that into practice and talk a little bit about this issue. Yes. Julia Roberts, cover star. Not what I was expecting. I'll be interested to see when we're finished this today. I'll go on Instagram and see what the kind of digital reaction is. Why Julia Roberts? The first cover star of your magazine. Why is she the right one? So, I mean, I think this conversation is going to be a very interesting one because people have an idea of who they think is going to be the first cover. Is it Naomi Campbell? Is it Kate Moss? Is it Beyonce? Is it Rihanna? I know. But for me, Julia represents something that society really, really needs.

18:44She is one of the biggest movie stars in the world. She is outspoken. She's a mother. you know she is herself 100 herself i say to people i mean we're friends now i don't even think julia has a housekeeper she drives goes to the supermarket she's a real woman and for me inclusivity was never just about race people always talked about race for me it was about age it was about socioeconomic background it was about religion it was about sort of anything that's seen outside of what is, quote-unquote, the Eurocentric norm, right? So Julia, for me, represents the invisible women, women in their 50s who are being told day in, day out, it's about youth, who are being told in your 50s or 60s or 70s that you're invisible.

19:36So for me, the first message that I wanted to put out there was that everybody's welcome regardless of age. so that's why Julia was there and also she was always my what do you call it when I was at Vogue I always thought I need a Julia Roberts cover year one, two, three I couldn't get her for the penultimate issue I thought let me try again and this time she was she was willing she's like okay let's do it and I remember as she walked out of the studio I said whatever I do next you will be covered and I'm sure she was like sure sure whatever and I called her and I said it's time But it's for all those incredible women out there who are aging.

20:16I think age is a beautiful thing. So, yes, that's why Julia's on the cover. And it's as inclusive as can be. And she's wearing Phoebe Philo, another independent woman. Phoebe Philo is a dear friend of mine, another independent woman who was at an institution and decided to go out and sort of do things on her own. And I have so much respect for Phoebe. She's been so instrumental in 72 because the number, you know, will sit there and I'll pick her brain. What is it like? You know, and Phoebe was such close friends and really an amazing talent. Yeah. So for me, it was a no brainer. Julia in Phoebe.

20:53You have a lot. And George Clooney in Julia. Oh, yeah. The interview has been done by George Clooney. Yes, George Clooney interviews Julia. And it's, I mean, we couldn't even cut it down. But you literally feel like you're in the living room of two megastars. Yeah, well, they've worked together so often, right? So they must know each other really well. And great interviewers are often the ones that can create a sense of comfort for the other person, not be afraid to ask them challenging questions, but also know the person really well. So know where to push. So I'll be interested to read that interview.

21:29I'll wait for you to read it. Let's talk about the cadence because, you know, if at first you weren't even necessarily thinking about a magazine and then, you know, maybe popular demand convinced you that you should do one. You know, this is a big debate in the media industry right now. Yes, yes. Recently, you know, American Vogue appointed its new head of editorial content, Chloe Mal. And in her first interview with the New York Times, she talked about doing fewer issues. is like where do you see the magazine industry going in terms of print is is that where we're going where we're going to have fewer yeah i mean i mean i always even believed that fewer issues really well curated beautiful i mean we've got like 500 hardbacks of this and when you look at it it's like the most beautiful book just fewer issues highly curated the things you want to own.

22:23That was always, for me, when we announced earlier in the year, that was always what I wanted to do. Fewer issues that were collectibles. And I feel like the magazine industry, I mean, look, they said books were, when the Kindle came, books were done, right? But I feel like the magazine industry will carry on, but we have to sort of look at things differently, how we work with clients, like we spoke about. And, you know, Cadence, for me, I don't have the energy or the strength to do more than four. Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter. That's it. Four times a year, you know, when the shows happen, you take inspiration from the world at large.

23:04But I think four is perfect. Four is perfect. You know, you can say a lot with four issues. I remember working on certain issues at British Vogue and thinking, oh my God, this could actually be sort of two issues in one. So the beauty of coming back and doing this is that we'll do less issues, but each issue will be hopefully a ride and packed with information. Your role in the magazine this time is different. Sarah Harris is editorial director. How are things different in terms of the way you contribute to the magazine? Just now you said to me, I don't do any styling anymore. No. So what is your role in shaping the magazine?

23:52And where do you let Sarah and her team take it? So my role, like I said, everybody focuses on the magazine. But like I said, the platform for me is where a lot of my energy goes. I also work with Simone, who is the head of digital. And she lives in America. There's a team in America. Simone Oliver. Yes, Simone Oliver in America. A team in London. So I spent a lot of time sort of working with sort of the platform team. I spent a lot of time sort of liaising with sort of clients on the other side. I also spent, and when it comes to the magazine, I got the best in class. I got some of the greatest people I've worked with, including my husband, you know, Alec Kloss Films.

24:38he's the visuals director Sarah Harris as well as so many incredible young talents so I mean you know what's my job not really you know make phone calls and it sounds like your job is to is also like building the right team building the right team and then also you're taking on more of the publisher role which is to build the relationships that this is the entrepreneur side that I wanted to talk about you know when you're a founder it's a different hat you wear you know before as an editor I'm so involved in the pages. I want, you know, everything that's in my head, I have to get out. But now there are things I can literally walk away from.

25:18If Sarah believes in it or the team believe in it, then I believe in it. And then, you know, the ideas that I'll sort of encourage, they can, you know, take it or leave it. I'm not here to try and do everything myself. Are you signing off on pages and images and covers? and... Yes, I mean, I am signing off with Sarah. Okay. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, people also, you know, no matter what I say to you, you sort of think it's the Edward Ed in full. Right. So it's quite great that I know, sort of I know the end product. I'm not just working at the end and... But it's so amazing, Imran, working with a new team in something that's never, doesn't have a history we can really create as we're moving along.

26:04You did this with your bedroom. I remember. I remember you in your bedroom. And for me, when I turned 50, that urge to sort of create what I did at ID Magazine when I was a kid. What I did when I went to W Magazine when they said the magazine was closing down that challenge. You know, I never went anywhere that was already working. You know, I don't know. I was always called in when a place needed help. And there were times growing up when I thought, oh, my God, why can't I just go somewhere that works? But I realized that that is a superpower. Yeah, you're kind of a turnaround expert. A turnaround artist.

26:40Yeah, and a turnaround artist. But this time you're actually creating something. What's been the hardest part, like doing something from zero? I mean, let's face it. I've been in golden handcuffs for quite a while, right? You know, whether it's as a stylist with the best clients you could think about, whether I was working as an editor for Vell, creative director for W, I've always sort of had access, but not with my own business. Now looking at the, what do you call it? The fine line, the spending, what you can spend, what you can't spend, where the team can stay, even during the shows. All those problems that were never really a problem, right?

27:23You're like, it just has to happen. I need this. Now people are coming up to me going, we need this and I'm like why do you need this right so I mean there's that of course there's the whole idea of you know you always have these insecurities is it is it going to work is it the right time but then you know that's that's human and then and then they pass and I'm not really somebody to sort of dwell on problems I'm a problem solver so I'm very good at solving problems and and thank you know thank god I've built quite an amazing group of colleagues and And friends, I can also lean on, you know, calling in favors or whatever.

27:59You know, the budgets we have, it's not Vogue budgets. But somehow everybody I called and asked to work for the magazine was like, no problem. I mean, I guess that's a testament to your relationships in the industry, which I think are really helpful when you're starting something new. Oh, my God, it's the best. It's the best. I mean, over three decades of relationships and friendships. Very thankful. I never take that for granted. What do you think of fashion media right now? I think it's in flux. We're going through a very tough time for fashion media. I think outlets like yours, like, you know, WWD, all those kind of sort of outlets that sort of feed the industry information are really what people are focused on right now, and rightly so.

28:53And I feel like there's also room for creativity. I think a lot of people have gotten scared about creativity or have gotten scared about being different, have gotten scared about even talking about being inclusive, all those things I think we need to sort of examine. And for me, fear has never been an option. Fear has never been an option. I've never been scared. You know, I've never done anything in the perfect time. I came to British work. It was after Brexit. And through COVID. Through COVID. It's almost like I've had to go through the hardest times, but that's when I do my best work. That's when I really sort of, yeah, sort of rise and meet the moment.

29:39For me, it's always about meeting the moments. And so that's really, yeah. We're going through a hard time in the media, but I also feel like we're just sort of learning how to be kind of a new industry at the same time. I look at all these designers, you know, we're learning to be a new industry. We're learning to maybe let go of sort of things we knew from the past and figure out how to create a new industry. Yeah. I mean, the creativity question is not just one that's an issue in magazines, which I just know from my own relationships in the industry, budgets are being cut, it's hard to get shoots done.

30:19There's so many limitations. And like it or not, at some stage, if you want to do really creative things, you need resources to do it. Not everyone has the relationships you have. The same thing is true in the kind of design part of our industry where there's a lot of change happening. I mean, as we look towards this September, October, what's running through your mind? I mean, Imran, I've been away from when? Almost two Septembers now. I've been to a couple of shows. I am so excited. I mean, to come into the industry, back into the industry right now with all these changes, all this excitement.

31:01Look, I've been around for a long time. I've been around where Calvin Klein was at his house. Saint Laurent was at Saint Laurent. Jill Sander was just, so I've seen the industry go through so many changes. And I feel like this moment is very exciting for a new generation who are not attached to the designers we knew from back when. So I am so excited that I'm launching in an industry in flux, yes, but also an amazing creative moment. I mean, I get to see Pia Paolo. I get to see Demna. I get to see so many great young designers sort of for the first time in new houses. So I'm quite excited by that.

31:39Do you think that will help to address the challenges that industry is facing? I hope so. I hope it's new thinking. I hope it's new ways of existing fashion houses exist. I think we all went, it just became a lot about sort of numbers, more is more. And, you know, I get it. But maybe now there might be a pivot to creativity. like how, you know, for me, creativity was always the answer from day one since I started. You know, the business side will always be great, but the business side is at its best when it's sort of arming on with creativity. And I think these designers have to be bold now. You know, I remember a time when, you know, McQueen was at Givenchy, John Galeano was at Dio, you know, all these bold designers.

32:26And I feel that we have to allow that. We have to allow that again. You know, they have to be bold and there has to be a sense of fearlessness. what do you think got in the way i mean just now you said that you know it became you know we became too focused on the money side i mean what what i mean yes you you know we need you know every business needs to survive but i feel that maybe that took precedence over over designers being creative and a lot of designers were scared to to you know i remember i grew up in a time when you know in one season you know skirts were high skirts were to the floor anything went and I felt like people felt that they had to follow a pattern be almost like be be part of a flock and I feel like now really calls for individuality and the last couture show seems was quite exciting I thought you know yeah there seemed to be the start of something interesting happening something interesting happened I remember reading Tim's review and it was just I've been at home so excited oh my god something is happening I remember the 90s.

33:34I remember when grunge was happening as a reaction against the 80s. And everyone was like, what is this? I remember, you know, when Tom Ford came along and all of a sudden glamour was back. You know, so I keep and I feel like we're in an exciting time right now, exciting time for creativity. So that's all I can really hope. What do you feel is coming from what you've seen? From what I saw at Couture, from the people I've been speaking with, sort of the editors, the photographers, it seems like everybody feels there's something in the air. and you know I will be right there alongside you reporting it and being a part of the industry really so I'm very excited you haven't done Fashion Week for a couple of years you're ready for the slog I don't know I'm not doing every show because now there's a team in place who will go to everything you know Anders, Madsen who I love Sarah they'll be going to everything but I'm not going to miss these debuts so to say but so you know we're still going to be sitting next to each other We're still going to be gossiping, but not at every show, maybe, because you still have to go to a lot.

34:36Well, I also have a team. So, like, we kind of spread the workload as well because it's impossible to do everything. One thing I wanted to say also about the platform and the magazine, it's global. Okay. It's not a British, you know, it's not American. It's global. We have, you know, offices in, we're going to have offices in the U.S. as well as in the U.K. We live in an exciting time where lots of my team are working from home. So you don't need to be in an office. But the brilliant thing about the magazine is it will drop the same day, 26 countries, the same day. So you don't have to wait a month to receive your copy.

35:15So that's also a new way. That's really exciting. Let's talk about the business model a bit because I understand now that the focus is on building these more 360-degree partnerships. It might be helping create a collection or organizing an event. And there might be some content you create. But the magazine cover price is 15 pounds or$20. So it's pricey compared to a typical magazine. As you were going around raising money to kind of launch this venture, what was your pitch to the investor community to say, this is what I'm building and this is why it's different and why it's successful? What's the business model?

35:57I mean, it was very interesting because the business model, the first thing I said was the business model doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. But what I want to create, I guess, based on my track record, I wanted to create something that was disruptive. Because I guess the word disruptions always a part of who I am. So they knew that whatever I did was going to be disruptive. And it wasn't going to be like following A or following B. I wanted to create something that was unique and different. So, yeah, that was really it. And it was very interesting. It was very interesting because in the end, I realized I just needed sort of a few sort of friends and I needed to use my own sort of investment because I wanted to be my own boss.

36:47boss and my sister who's you know we can't talk about this talking my sister who's a business sort of a business genius she was my agent for 18 years we made every decision together even the decision to come to British Vogue the decision how long I was going we made every decision together as well as my husband so there was always three of us it wasn't just the Edward show it was always three of us and you know us very well so it's like you know what let's do it our way and then for me I always say to the next generation what I learned from more than success is my failures, I'm like let's do it this way let's do it our way and then let's learn from our failures so I wasn't really bothered about what was out there already I wasn't really worried about how businesses are supposed to work this is what sort of worked for me and you know I hope yeah and I hope that people would meet me along the way and they have so I'm very excited by it But you know me.

37:45I was never going to do anything that was a norm. And don't forget, I could have taken so many jobs at magazines and gone to shows and been an editor. But I wanted to create something that wasn't just for me, but also for a new generation. A new generation of Edwards and Imrans in their room saying, look at them. If they can do it, we can. That's very important because that's what I had when I started in people like Terry and Tricia Jones that I do. You know, Simon Fox, Franco Sanzani, all these people really took me under their wings and really taught me about the industry and protected me. So that's kind of what I wanted to give back alongside a business model.

38:25You know, Edward, one of the issues that you've become so well known for in the industry is around representation, around diversity, around inclusion. You know, I've been reading a lot these past few months about shifting sentiments around, you know, if you think back to 2015, 2016, when, you know, people like you and me were first raising the awareness around these topics. I mean, it felt like we were kind of creating some kind of awareness and change. Yes, we are. But, you know, more recently, it feels like a lot of that change is backsliding. You know, there's, you know, in the US, you know, a lot of companies are erasing the words, you know, chief diversity officer or diversity inclusion from their websites and from people's titles.

39:29What do you make of the state of the industry as it pertains to this topic that I know you care about so much? Oh, of course. Your representation is so important to me. I feel like it's become one step forward, two steps back. I feel like the fashion industry, you know, we love trends. So I feel like that's become a trend. But I'll tell you something, Imran. I was black before DEI. I am black now and I will be black. So for me, I'm not a trend. You're not a trend. so there has to be people in place who will still be fearless and and sort of fight fight the fight and that's what that's what we're here to do it's it's very sad that thinks things go you know back after a few years but then i've been i've been here since the 90s where there were no black models anywhere apart from Naomi Campbell and we addressed that.

40:32The 2000s where all shows were totally Eurocentric so Franco Sanzani and all of us had to create a black issue. Fast forward to 2011, 12, 13, whatever, when again we go back to the same problem of a lack of representation and Bethann, Naomi, they come back. So there are those of us who carry on fighting. Look at what you've done with voices are you going to stop no you will not stop because i think at the end of the day we will be on the right side of history and i'm very interested in being on the right side of history so for me it's not a trend for me it's not let's move on it's it's it's who we are yeah it's who we are you know people of color i'm so happy to be coming back now because i will carry on challenging it's just a sense of maybe you know there's a new generation who are growing up and they might not have sort of the fearlessness or the background we do, so we have to be there for them as well.

41:31Yeah, and I think that there's an element of it, which is, you know, regardless of what you call it and what you're allowed to call it, what the law says you should be doing within the company, I think what the most important thing is that the work is still being done. The work is being done. Yeah, and they can call it whatever they want. I've always believed in pluralism anyway. You know, everybody's welcome. All voices are welcome. That's always been sort of what I believed in it. And I feel now more than ever, yeah, we have to practice that, whatever you call it. But I'm so proud of you. I remember when you started Voices.

42:05And it's so important. It's become one of the most important things, not just in our industry, but in culture. You can't stop. But the thing is, is like the people who are part of it. This is our 10th. It's our 10th year of Voices this year. 10 years already? Yeah. Can you believe it? No way. And the 500 too. Yeah. And I've been thinking about it a lot because obviously like it's a, when these milestones come along, you really think about it. And I've been going back to the old talks and, you know, the very first topics that we talked about at Voices in 2016, those are the same topics that we're still talking about.

42:43Same topics I've been talking about my whole career. We're still talking about that. And it's a little bit sad. Like I said, one step forward, two steps back, you know, but there are people who, you know, we're here for a reason. We're not just here for ourselves. Yes, we have great businesses and, you know, we will, you know, they have to succeed. But we also stand for something and I will always stand for something. So just before we wrap up, I'm curious, you know, what success in this new venture, Edward, the entrepreneur, looks like. for you like have you got a picture in your head about what what it looked like you must think about it a little bit I'll tell you something I remember being a teenager being 18 years old and being asked to be fashion director for ID magazine and everyone was saying oh my god what are you gonna do and I just did it I didn't think I just did it same thing happened when I got calls to work with Stephen Meisel for Italian Vogue, this incredible photographer, Italian Vogue, Franco Zanzani, I just shut everything out and just did the work.

43:55When I did W Magazine, when I did American Vogue, British Vogue, I just, I'm quite able to shut up the noise and just propel. And I know I'm in a different position now, but for me, if somebody looks at the company and thinks, you know, they've done good. they've done good in a tough time i'm happy if it's commercially successful even happier right and influential i'll be in heaven but success for me is really am i happy because if i'm not happy i'll do something else i always go back to this as a child of immigrants with a father, a middle-class father who was in the army, having to leave everything we had to come to England penniless.

44:49That has taught me that, my God, if I can survive that, I can survive anything. And that's really what keeps me going. If something doesn't work, I can pivot. I can learn. But that comes from being that little kid who arrived in England from an all-black country and got told he wasn't good enough. So for me, success really is, am I happy more than anything else, I'll say. And for the aspiring editors, entrepreneurs, stylists, who are thinking about building a career in this industry. And by the way, you know, fashion is challenged right now. And media is challenged right now. And fashion media is super challenged right now.

45:35Like what advice do you, like how does someone find their way in this industry at such a challenging moment? Such a challenging time. On one hand, you know, they have all these platforms, Instagram, TikTok, but also it makes it so difficult for them. I always say, you know, I mean, it's easy for me to say, you know, believe in what you believe, follow your dreams. Yes, we know that. But practically, surround yourself with like-minded people. surround yourself with people who can really help you when you're down because it's going to be a tough journey it's not an easy you don't just get up and end up being a superstar learn from your mistakes try new things because that's the only way you're going to learn if you're playing it safe your whole career that's that's a problem and not everybody is going to be encouraging right you're going to come again so many naysayers like i did you know but something in me was meant to do what I did.

46:34If you're meant to be in the fashion industry, if you're meant to be in the media industry, you won't even have a choice. I remember I'd walk from Lubbock Grove to East London to return clothes. That's how passionate I was. So passion will see you through practicalities. If you can work with somebody in any of those industries, if you can get work experience at BOF, if you could get work experience, take it. Because that's how I got into the industry through Simon Foxton and ID. That's become more important now as an ent, you know, yes, you can have all the degrees you want, which is amazing, but you need the first steps, you know, and great people around you, people who can lift you up and help your, you know, your mental health, really protect your mental health.

47:21That's good advice. You have a big four weeks ahead of you. Oh, tell me. Your first launch is on Friday? Friday, we're in New York. We're launching in New York. And then every Friday, then London's the next Friday, then Milan, then Paris. And each launch is different. So New York is sort of, you know, sort of around technology. London's around music. Milan is sort of around fashion. And Paris is really sort of an incredible cocktail to see all my friends I haven't seen in a while. Well, we're all super excited and proud of you. I'm so excited to see all of you. Thank you for agreeing to sit down with me to talk me through it.

48:03Thank you, Imran. It's been long coming, but I wanted to come when I could really give you something. Yeah, well, this is exciting. I look forward to digging in. Thank you. And I look forward to sitting down with you and exchanging entrepreneur worth stories. I am very excited. Thank you so much, Imran. All right. Good luck, Edward. Thank you. All right, take care. The BOF Podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.