Has Fashion Had Enough of AI?

0:00Hey, Yetis. This is Nick and Jack from the Best One Yet podcast. Now, the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business, this show, that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up HR, finance, and IT seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools, you don't even need cilantro. You need one solution. And that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next.

0:36Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes, we do. Experience a one place for all your HCM needs, besties. So start now at paylocity.com slash one. Paylocity.com slash O-N-E.

0:53This episode is brought to you by Macy's. Mark your calendars for September 8th as Macy's has just brought together six of the most iconic names in American fashion for one exclusive capsule collection. Tommy Hilfiger, Michael Kors and Donna Karan, alongside some of the industry's most exciting newer voices like Jonathan Cohen, Theophilio and La Pointe. Six designers, six completely different takes on full and every piece is exclusive to Macy's. These pieces are only around for a limited time, so don't sleep on this one. Head to Macy's on September 8th to shop the collection before it's gone for good.

1:39Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the business of fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. For many of us, our first encounter with fashion happens on a screen. We discover clothes through social media, watch runway shows on our phones, and decide what to buy from pictures online. But how has that changed the clothes themselves and what we value about them? That's a question my colleague Mark Bain explored recently with fashion critic Eugene Rapkin, who believes that the industry has sacrificed creativity and quality in favor of image and hype.

2:16It's a compelling argument at a time when higher prices have left shoppers questioning whether luxury is even worth it anymore. Now, as AI is making digital imagery even easier to produce, a quiet rebellion is taking place. Some luxury brands are commissioning painters and illustrators, hosting phone-free dinners, and offering hands-on experiences that give customers a reason to step away from their screens. So can this renewed emphasis on human creativity, craft, and connection offer a meaningful response to fashion's image-first culture. Joining me to explore this are Diana Pearl, BOF's U.S.

2:50editor, and Mark Bain, BOF's U.K. editor and technology correspondent. Mark, Diana, welcome to The Debrief. Thank you, Sheena.

2:58Eugene Rabkin: Always happy to be here. So, Mark, I want to start with what your story talks about, which is this era of simulation or the simulation era. I'm going to ask you for the too-long-didn't-read, non-pair-reviewed version of what that actually means. What is meant by the simulation era? Basically, it's just this idea that imagery of clothing is more important and almost more real in some senses than the physical garments themselves, especially, you know, in the way consumers interact with them. One of the things that Eugene is basically premising in his book, but also in your conversation is that has changed how clothes are produced today, how they're designed, how they're merchandised.

3:36Can you talk a little bit about what that has meant for fashion today as he sees it?

3:39Eugene Rabkin: Yeah, I would say there are a variety of implications here, but one of the main things, and something you can probably easily spot as just a regular consumer of fashion, is it's put greater and greater importance on the logo. And this is not a brand new thing. This has been happening for quite a long time. But as we interact more with clothing through imagery rather than the physical garments themselves, the logo becomes more important, especially when we're talking once we start getting into the era of social media and e-commerce, where you're looking at little screens, where small details like fabric's texture become harder to spot, let alone things that might have denoted quality in the past, like the actual hand feel and that kind of stuff.

4:28Eugene Rabkin: Now the logo is just the easiest thing to identify. And that has become really kind of the most important thing on a garment. And if the logo becomes the most important thing, there's really less incentive to focus on all that other stuff too. So it creates the situation where creativity and actual design and that sort of thing has taken a backseat and producing image friendly garments that are very logo heavy have become, you know, that's become the priority. So this is interesting because Rabkin talks about this idea of the alienation of consumers. So you order something online because it looks beautiful online or because you spot the logo, as you said, and you say, this is great.

5:10This is fill in the blank product. It arrives and it doesn't live up to what you saw online. Eventually, this results in the consumer feeling, quote, unquote, alienated. Can you talk a little bit about how that has shaken out in the last couple of years? Yeah.

5:24Eugene Rabkin: So Eugene talks about this idea of the alienation of the consumer, which is borrowed from this French theorist. And it's really this idea that when we relate to products mainly through the image rather than the item itself, we become sort of alienated from it. When we can't connect to those tangible things anymore, and e-commerce really plays into this. And, you know, there's a meme online about like the Shein version of something. It's like you see one thing, you order it, and what you get is sometimes hilariously different. But it doesn't just apply to Shein. I think, you know, Eugene's argument is that it's come to apply to a whole lot of fashion, including luxury fashion.

6:05Eugene Rabkin: And there's been this cycle where, you know, we interact with things or we see images online. We're buying products based on images online. And then when we get the physical thing or we come in contact with the physical thing, it doesn't match our expectations. There's been this decline in quality over the years that a lot of people besides Eugene have talked about. And so arguably, that's, you know, one of the things that's led to the big downturn that we've seen in the luxury industry. There's been all this talk about how price hikes, they've hiked prices, but haven't really increased the quality of the items or the creativity of the items to a corresponding degree.

6:45Eugene Rabkin: And it's created this situation where people have actually become interested in getting away from the image and getting off social media and going to stores and trying to see the real thing. I'm going to bring in Diana in a second, but I want to stay on this, on the conversation that you had with Eugene for a second. A lot of what he wrote about and what you guys discussed, at least about half of the conversation was about the traditional digital media that I'm thinking of your cell phone. You watch a runway show. And so maybe the designers lay out their runway in a way to speak to Instagram or something.

7:18It's online shopping. You order based on a website image. But then there's AI. AI is a whole other element of this conversation that I think, and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, could maybe not necessarily hurt, but could help in some ways. Like, what's your take on how AI fits into what Eugene is talking about here, the simulation era?

7:38Eugene Rabkin: It all depends on how it's used. And that's something that I asked Eugene about directly, sort of what's your take on technology, good or bad? And he was kind of like, technology is amoral. It's a tool. It depends on how we use it. So it's always going to be up to the person. So on the one hand, this idea that at least a picture is like a reference to a physical product. With AI, you can even get away from that. You can create very realistic images of things that don't even correspond to a physical product, which would obviously make the situation worse that we're talking about. But there are ways that AI could also be used to benefit companies, including, say, small designers.

8:22Eugene Rabkin: If you're a small designer, I worked for a small fashion brand for a while, many years ago now. But doing things like writing emails, if you can have AI write really simple emails because you're just going to place a purchase order. It's not a really complex thing. If you can have AI take over tasks like that, that are just tedious, in theory, it could free you up to focus on the more creative parts of your job, that sort of thing. So it's really just about like technology just being a tool and it's really how it's used that is more important. So nowhere in there do we talk about AI helping the art be better.

8:59That does not seem yet to be one of the benefits. Diana, a story that you edited recently talked about another layer of backlash to AI, which is that you're seeing brands. I mean, maybe these aren't the most surprising examples, but Hermes, Oluwe, they're employing more and more of these real artists to make real art as a part of their campaigns. Talk a little bit about why that thriving as I think it's like a backlash to frustration with things being AI generated or maybe even too polished because they have all the digital capabilities to be edited and made perfect. Why is the contrast of that now thriving?

9:34I think that there's a lot of factors. I think that luxury brands are trying to prove that they are a luxury. They're worth the money. And I think increasingly because of AI, being perfect and having just this picture-perfect imagery is no longer seen as aspirational. It's actually seen as like slop and the opposite in a lot of ways. And having that human done art, that is what feels now aspirational and special, knowing that there's a human touch to it, not just the perfection alone. I think it really goes hand in hand. You're seeing generally outside of fashion, there's so much of a resurgence in hobbies like needle pointing and knitting and even people buying like point and shoot cameras.

10:15People want to be off their phones. They want to be doing things that are more analog. There's really sort of this digital backlash. And I think that this is a great way for luxury brands to show, look at the craft and handiwork that goes into our marketing. And hopefully that translates to look at the craft and handiwork that goes into our product. Are there ways that brands can get this wrong? I thought it was interesting in the story. It was written by Haley Crawford, our marketing correspondent, that one don't she flagged was if you get called out for using AI imagery in a campaign, don't then next week basically employ an artist to make something real.

10:48Like, how do you make sure you don't you don't also hop on another bandwagon that you don't cheap you don't cheaply employ artists or, you know, the thing that I mentioned earlier, like you put a a typo in your marketing campaign so you know it's not AI generated because certainly this can the pendulum can go the other direction. We see an uptick in technology followed by an uptick in analog. We've seen that for centuries, right? Definitely. And I think that it really is just this idea of like doing something that feels true to your brand. And I think that there's a way to use AI that can still speak to luxury and craft and that sort of thing.

11:27You know, I think about the Prada campaign with the birds that didn't get quite the same level of backlash that other AI generated campaigns got because I think it used AI in a more unique way. But yeah, I think when hiring an artist, think about does the artist have maybe a prior connection to the brand or prior connection, the city of the brand is based in, or, you know, things like that. Have you worked with this artist before? You know, Hermes hired an artist to do some store windows in Switzerland, and then ended up hiring her to do all the, you know, hand-drawn imagery for their website.

11:56So I think just making sure that it feels in line with the brand story, you know, however you choose to employ said artist. And yeah, you can't just hop on it because it feels like a trend. It needs to be something that's done with a little more thought and care. We'll be back with more of The Debrief right after this.

12:38You can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger-than-life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com.

13:15Wayfair, every style, every home.

13:25What are some other examples that you see this sort of backlash to AI, backlash to digital, showing up in marketing? One thing that I thought was interesting is like the phone-free dinner parties. I mean, I think I want to be counted out for one, but like, like what other ways are brands getting creative around, Hey, you can join us in this marketing moment and we'll take digital out of it. So you can experience this analog thing that's like trending now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hosting classes or events in stores where it actually physically, whether it's like a painting class or a needlepoint class, like you're doing an activity that physically demands like use of your hands.

14:00So you like can't be on your phone at the same time, phone free dinner parties, requesting no photos. And usually brands will still, you know, hire a photographer or, you know, members of the marketing team will be there capturing content, but really allowing people to have those moments of in-person connection that they're craving, I think really goes a long way with, you know, just getting people. It's what people really want right now. And I think that it shows you're meeting the customer where they are and just being a little more grounded rather than having everything be online and in this virtual, you know, space.

14:32And there's something to be said for having IRL experiences with people. If you are a, if I'm a marketer at a brand and I bring editors or influencers to dinner and I actually force them to have a human connection, maybe they'll stay with my brand for the long game or maybe when they do produce content, it will seem more, dare I say it, authentic. Mark, I wanna bring you back in on this. One of the things that I think was a big theme in your conversation with Eugene was that this emphasis on digital is one reason why product quality has gone down. We talked about this earlier, but do you really buy it?

15:05We've talked a lot about luxury brands, hiking prices, and the quality not following suit. Do you actually buy a strong connection between that and the fact that people consume it online?

15:15Eugene Rabkin: My thought is that there are a whole bunch of different reasons for all this stuff. And I do think the sort of almost digital first mentality is a part of that. It's not the exclusive reason. I'm not even sure I would say it's the primary reason. There's been this big corporatization of fashion over the past several decades. At the same time, certain more traditional construction techniques have just gotten harder to come by. This is my own little personal example. I need to get some new boots. And I was looking for boots that are made with a Goodyear welt so you can resold them easily. It's like an old-fashioned construction technique.

15:59Eugene Rabkin: and almost nothing seems like it's made with that anymore. Everything is like glued or cemented or something like that. That's not one that shows up on social media. You can't tell like how the soul was like actually attached to the boot in an image that way. It's happened without social media. So it's definitely not just social media. But I do think there has been this kind of a bit of a change in priority and the stuff that can take off online that, you know, can really get noticed online. I think Eugene and I were talking, he admitted, he was like, I was really surprised by the resurgence of quiet luxury because that's all emphasis on stuff like small details that are much harder to convey through an image.

16:42Eugene Rabkin: So I do think it's been a factor, but it's really hard to say how big a factor. And I don't think it's necessarily the primary factor. It sounds more like brands have benefited from something that was happening in the digital world more than... The insidious read to me was that brands sat around, you know, watching this happen and thought, and now we'll just make this really crappy quality because they can't tell online. It seems like maybe if things weren't up to up to snuff, you can get away with it because of what was happening digitally. And so you mentioned that the brands themselves would hire photographers who will take photos and maybe the marketers will take some photos.

17:15So there will be there's content. There's some direct marketing payoff or immediate marketing payoff of having an in-person event. But how else does a brand measure success for this kind of thing? Like if they aren't seeing the usual like high volume, you know, post your stories in the moment, take a picture of the dinner card, all the things that we're used to seeing influencers do at these events. If you're pulling back on that, how else are you measuring success as a brand? What else can you do? I think it's all really representative of this bigger shift that we're seeing away from like volume and just, you know, get as much content as possible, get as many followers as possible, work with the influencers with the biggest follower count towards really like depth of connection.

17:56And it's better to work with just a few influencers, but really have that deeper connection and deeper relationship with them or do a smaller event that maybe isn't going to produce the same volume of social media content. but it's really building that deeper relationship with the people who are there. I think that there's different ways that brands can see the value of this. Maybe it's not through EMV or MIB, those classic metrics that are used to measure sort of the impact of and the volume of conversation online, but looking at customer retention and, you know, how if you have a partnership with an influencer that starts at, you know, one of these events, but it leads to a longer relationship, how did that partnership perform?

18:34You know, what were the sales conversions there? So I think really just thinking about it in a more holistic way and also recognizing like some of these things are not you can't always quantify, you know, the depth of a relationship or having a deeper connection. But it is something that has a long term potential payoff. And sometimes brands just need to invest in those sort of brand building and relationship building exercises with the knowledge that if you do it right, it will pay off in good time. And you'll see that ultimately in the sales, which ultimately, isn't that what we all, that's what we're all looking for at the end of the day.

19:08Exactly. So Mark, your story identifies the problem, which is that we're kind of stuck in the simulation era. Diana, you talk about one way out of it. Where do we go next? I think we're maybe seeing the start of, you know, there is this digital backlash. I think that especially with Gen Z, this generation that really grew up online, we're realizing not all technology is good or additive. And, you know, I think that people are really questioning, like, what are the best uses of technology in our lives? You look at the popularity of something like the brick device, where it's like you can block multiple apps for hours in a day.

19:42And so I think we're just we're entering a new stage where obviously technology and digital and social media, none of that stuff is going away, but it can't be the be all end all. There's a lot of different ways to connect with consumers to present your products. And I think that in-person element is just so important. It's the same way we saw brick and mortar come back after COVID when everybody said e-commerce is the future. I think we have all realized like if the pandemic didn't teach us like virtual is not like that alone cannot build a brand, can't build a world, can't build a life. You know, it's important to have those those in-person moments of connectivity and also just, you know, having those those handmade.

20:21Not everything can be just like made by technology. I think that's something that consumers will increasingly appreciate alongside liking things on Instagram and using technology and social media, all those different things.

20:33Eugene Rabkin: Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think it's all one or all the other. I think, you know, people adapt. Like as new technology comes out, they use it a bunch. They adapt to it. Brands will adapt and figure out how to reach people. There will be backlash. There will be, you know, it's just a constant ebb and flow. I don't think physical stuff is going away and neither is social media. And, you know, it'll continue to coexist and they'll wrestle with each other. And yeah, it'll just continue to evolve together. Maybe this is all us arriving at some balance. Mark, Diana, thank you so much for joining me.

21:13Thank you, Sheena.

21:15Eugene Rabkin: Thanks. Always nice to be here. You can read Mark's article, Is Fashion Stuck in a Simulation Era? and the story as AI floods the feed, fashion marketers tap artists on businessoffashion.com. You'll find the links in our episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief. I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

21:53Being a serious business owner takes hard work, patience, and a drive to keep moving forward. So it's important to find a serious business card that goes the extra mile. With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase. And with big purchasing power, you can spend more and earn more. This is your sign to take your business to the next level. The Capital One VentureX Business Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details. Who says Halloween only lasts one day with Wayfair. One night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home from larger than life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house.

22:32Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Thank you.