How Basketball Sneakers Got Their Groove Back

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. And I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. In the late 80s and 90s, performance basketball sneakers led by Nike's Air Jordan line became fashion icons in their own right. These weren't just shoes you wore on the court. They were cultural signifiers, status symbols, coveted collectibles. But over the past decade, something changed. While retro Jordans continue to dominate the resale market, actual performance basketball sneakers, the kind worn by current NBA stars, lost momentum with mainstream consumers.

0:49Now that might be starting to shift. With a new generation of talent stepping onto the court and into the fashion spotlight, brands are giving basketball sneakers a facelift. Today, we're joined by BOF correspondent Leigh Takenashi, who reported on this revival. And I'd also like to introduce to the debrief and to BOF, Mike Sykes. Mike recently started at Business of Fashion covering the intersection of sports and fashion. He's also the author of the Kicks You Wear newsletter, which if you follow sneakers, you probably already know. I've been a fan for years. I consider it the authority on all things sneakers and sports and fashion generally.

1:27We're actually bringing the newsletter in-house at BOF. If you'd like to subscribe, you can find out how to do so in the show notes. So hello, Leigh, and hello, Mike. Welcome to the Debrief podcast. Thank you, Brian and Sheena. It's a pleasure to be here. It's a pleasure to be here with you guys. Before we get into basketball sneakers, Mike, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a bit about who you are and the kicks you wear. So I'm Mike Sykes. I'm the author of The Kicks You Wear. I am a sneakerhead. That is my passion. It's always been the thing that I cling to. I love sports. I am a sports journalist, typically by trade, but I'm very excited to dive into fashion with BOF.

2:05Amazing. And I guess the question, actually, this is probably a good question for everyone here is how many pairs of sneakers does everyone own? I want to start with Mike because I'm sure that number is insane. It's really not that bad. I haven't counted recently, but the last time I counted it was 56. Oh my God. Leigh, what about you? Can you top that? You know, it's funny. I I was talking to Mike about this last week and like, I'm happy to say that my collection is maybe like only like 10 to 12 pairs, I think. I mean, I think that's still a lot more than the average person, but I'm very particular about what I buy in the sneaker space.

2:39Every older shoes are actually collaborations of some sort. Oh my gosh. I think I'm in the middle at like maybe 30 to maybe not 40, upwards of 30, but less than 40 pairs. Brian's like laughing at me. Is that bad? Is that bad? Is that good? I don't know. No, I just like, you're all like, I only have 40. I think I have five in there mostly like to mow the lawn in or whatever, but that's why we're here. Right. To learn on that note for the Bryans out there in the audience can actually lay this, this would be good for you. Can you just first explain the difference between basketball shoe you're wearing on the court and sort of the fashion sneaker that you're talking about in the story yeah yes certainly certainly well like what we're talking about here in this story is just like performance basketball shoes like shoes are actually designed to be you know actually play sports and you'll actually like shoot hoops you'll actually just actually you'll actually wear to a game or you know whereas like you know i think the basketball sneakers that we're thinking of that the ones that people collect are like retro air jordans are real really lifestyle releases you know these are shoes that were designed for performance in like 1985 but are now not really up to date in terms of tech or any of those things.

3:53Can you talk about why this, like, you know, the latest wave before this wave of basketball shoes fell off? Like, because people used to wear what the athletes wore on the court, like in their everyday life, because they were cool sneakers. What happened that caused a shift maybe a decade ago? Yeah, I think really the last generation of basketball shoes before it is like, you know, signature styles in the 2010s by Nike for players such as like lebron kobe kairi what have you they all looked like really techie almost like i guess similar to like my performance running product like of course you know basketball sneakers are working with completely different technology but i guess the best way to put it is it kind of looked like something that was really solely designed for sport and only sport right you know it's something that you would only see on your high school kids who are actually about to play basketball for like you know their team or whatever and you know the colors and like all all that kind of stuff.

4:42It didn't really scream like, oh, this is like a fashion shoe. It really screamed like, this is like your weirdest to play, you know? And when I think back to like just the 2010s and just like, you know, basketball shoes that cut through the noise, the only shoe I could think of is just like foam posses, to be absolutely honest. Like that's a style that I think Nike launched in the late 90s and then they brought it back in the late 2000s. But that was like the only, I think, like stylish like basketball shoe I really saw on and off court. Honestly, I'd love to hear Mike's thoughts on this too.

5:12I was going to say, Mike, what's that utilitarian use case? Like, do sneakerheads not like it if it feels too much like it will do its job, basically? Well, no, I don't think it's that. I just think with sneakerheads, it's more about the aesthetic, right? It's about like looking unique and wearing the thing that sort of sticks out from everybody else. That's sort of what the thrill of the hunt is about. Like, you're looking for something that will differentiate you and your style from everyone else. And I think with basketball sneakers in particular, and not even just with Nike, but with a number of brands out there, all the styles just seem kind of homogenous.

5:47Like it was everybody that was just they were making shoes that that looked similar, had similar color palettes. It just there wasn't much difference there. And if you're not going to give us anything that looks different or anything that's unique, then people are going to go back and look into the past for something that might make them stick out a little bit more. And so I think after like I would say the inflection point for me in particular is like the 2012 NBA All-Star game where like Nike drops the Galaxy pack and then we get the Galaxy phone posits and then they've got the KDs, the Bronze and the Kobys.

6:25and like after that, it kind of goes downhill from there. And now we're sort of in this period where things are ramping up a little bit more, I would say. Well, so explain what's happening there, Leigh. I mean, like Mike was saying, you know, you're looking for shoes that help you stand out. I mean, how does Nike, the biggest, best-known brand in the world, make something that makes you feel like you found something unique and special that no one else has? Yeah, I think what Nike is really excelling at right now is they're just really going towards, I think, just the biggest new names in the space, right?

6:57Like, whether it's Sabrina Iannoski for, like, you know, the New York Liberty or, like, you know, someone like, you know, Converse with, like, Shai Gilgis on Alexander. And just for transparency, I don't follow the sport of basketball, but I do follow, I think, the aesthetics of it and, like, you know, how it's become this, like, larger fashion thing and how it's become this larger interest in men's wear and streetwear culture. And a lot of these new players that Nike's signing, giving signature shoes to, like, they have this, like, grip on the culture. Like, you know, when they walk in the tunnel, like everyone sees it, you know, and you don't have to follow the game to like just appreciate how well someone like Shy dresses, right?

7:31Like he is one of the flyest people walking on planet Earth right now. Like there's no doubt about that. For the uninitiated, why don't you describe like what is his look? Like what's his aesthetic? Yeah, how he dresses, it's just like it was like effortless, like cool. Like that's kind of how I look at it. It's just like how he puts stuff together. or it's just like it's high fashion. It's kind of like streetwear, but it's almost like the best like Instagram, like shit that's like real life. Mike, to what extent is it this new wave of players? So I'm also going to stretch my basketball knowledge.

8:00So Anthony Edwards with the Adidas sneaker, right? The AE ones, that's a hit. And I know that because every single kid on my son's basketball team is wearing the AEs in different colors. To what extent is it the swagger and bravado of someone like AE that's also driving the excitement that we're seeing right now. Yeah, I think that has a lot to do with it. And I think Anthony Edwards is actually a very unique example because I think he probably is one of the most, I don't even know how to properly describe the guy. Provocative persona. Yeah, he's very provocative. He's got the bravado. He's got like everything that you want from a signature athlete.

8:38Very outspoken, isn't afraid to sort of say or do whatever, speak his mind. And he's not he's also not afraid to go at his peers, including like the likes of LeBron James and Kevin Durant, like some of the best players in the game. And so I think that helps a lot. Having an athlete like that helps a lot. But I will say that I also, from the brand perspective, I think they've sort of dropped the ball a bit over these last decades because there have been interesting athletes that have come over the last decade or so who haven't gotten shoes or have had shoes that just haven't necessarily been the most marketable sneakers.

9:14But I think that from a brand perspective, the athletes just kind of weren't the interesting players in the field. Like you've got names like Kanye West, Travis Scott, Virgil Abloh, who come along and they sort of become the athletes with the models that they put forward. And that's where the public's interest goes. And so now I think the brands are sort of circling back around and recentering athletes in a way that I think we haven't quite seen in a long time. And it's not only is it making for more interesting signature models, but it's also making for more interesting signature athletes as well.

9:51Who's in that lost generation of NBA stars who didn't quite get their shot? Oh, I would say I've got to throw John Wall in there as as the resident Washington Wizards fan here. It's a very sad and cursed existence. Yeah, I'm from Maryland myself. I completely feel that. Brian knows. Brian knows. John Wall, I would say Candice Parker, honestly, on the on the WNBA side, like that was just a moment that like the rivalry between her and Maya Moore that that sort of bubbled up in the mid 2010s time. Like that was something that I felt like Jordan should have been on it. Adidas should have been on it.

10:31And no one kind of was. It was just a really weird period, especially like considering that we hadn't had a woman's signature basketball shoe since Candice Parker's last model in like 2012. 12 and she played up until what, two or three years ago. So like just knowing that, that there were sort of stories like that out there and, and athletes out there that were, that were very interesting and, and sort of had the things that you want to see in a, a signature athlete, like that's, it's really disappointing when you, when you look back on it as, as a sports fan and as a consumer, honestly. I'm glad you mentioned Candice Parker and also Maya, because there is an opportunity here around women's, right?

11:12So a fun fact that I learned in reporting a story on Nike's involvement with the WNBA was that Sabrina Ionesco, the Sabrina Twos, are the most worn shoe across both leagues, the WNBA and the NBA, by playing time. So the men are also wearing her sneaker. Can both of you talk a little bit about the women's opportunity here, like how women have driven some of this resurgence? I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense just because I think a lot of sneaker trends in general do start with women. Like, you know, just think about like the rise of the samba or like you know just like the flash shoe trend overall right it's like that's not something started by guys but now it's like everybody wears and all these guys wearing it's like barrel like jeans which i think is also a trend started by women as well so it's almost like a trickle down effect so i think like once even don't like the nba you know the tunnel victory started by the nba athletes are male like i feel like we will see i think as wnba gets bigger and bigger we will see just that kind of trickle down thing happening there too Yeah.

12:09And I honestly am just thinking about like, I mean, so what, four years ago in 2021, I think we only had one WNBA signature athlete and it was Elena Deledon, who like nobody even really knew that she had a signature shoe, which was also just really, really strange. And now you've got Sabrina, you've got Breanna Stewart, her teammate, you've got Caitlin Clark's coming, you got Asia Wilson, maybe Kiki Uriahfin will have something with Skechers soon. Like there are just a number of partnerships that have been forged in these last few years. So there's clearly like a huge opportunity there that I think everyone is kind of seeing and everyone kind of wants to get on it.

12:53So I honestly think it's just a matter of time before we see, you know, there are a number of guys with signature shoes in the NBA. And I think we're going to see the same thing in the WNBA over the next decade or so. And that's really unusual, right? I mean, Sheena, you just wrote a whole story about this, that the WNBA had been essentially ignored for decades, you know, when it came to signature sneakers. And now it seems to, I mean, from what Mike just said, it sounds like it's actually driving so much of the energy here, even almost even more than the men from the sound of it. Oh, for sure.

13:30I mean, I think that it's a symbiotic sort of situation. I think there are these players that are embracing fashion. And so like fashion as an industry, but also as like an ideology, like a culture is embracing it back, if that makes sense. So I think it's all coming together. But to both the point that Mike and Leigh made around some of the brands maybe didn't meet the athletes halfway, the women athletes in particular here. Like you had interesting people that never really got the product to match it. And there's I mean, maybe Mike can explain this a little bit better, but there's a difference between a signature release and like a special player edition sneaker.

14:03So they weren't getting those big marquee signature shoes, right? Like they were getting these little small capsules or player exclusives, they call it. And now we're seeing more actual signature shoes. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And like two players that come to mind specifically with that, because they have some of the best P.E.s that I've ever seen are Sue Bird, who played for the Seattle Storms. She had a number of really good models, including a really nice Kyrie Irving signature shoe with Nike. And then Maya Moore is also the other one who had some of the best Jordan P.E.s that I'd ever seen.

14:40Like I'm thinking in particular that Wings Jordan 10, like that was a great sneaker. And when the sneaker released, I was like, this is a great shoe. But I also feel like we could maybe turn this into a signature model instead of just a player exclusive model. And so, like, just seeing the creativity and the color that has always been around the women's game when it comes to the sneakers that they've worn, it just makes it all the more disappointing for me that, like, we hadn't seen this sort of energy around the women's market a bit sooner. Because I really think that if we saw what we see today, maybe five or 10 years ago, the market right now would be completely different than what it is today.

15:26It'd be incredible. Although I have to ask, how much of this is sneakerheads who are, you know, your amazing readers of your newsletter, let's say, and how much of this is really penetrating the wider market? because I was, you know, in Lei's story, you would think from what we're saying, oh, basketball shoe sales must be booming. They're actually down 8 % this year and they were down 5 % last year. So it seems like something's not quite connecting with the mainstream consumer. Is that right? Brian brings us back down to earth, 8 % down and 5%. Sorry, guys. No, we need that. Yeah, I think it's just tough because like, no matter what, like, you know, The trend cycles kind of leaned into the running space.

16:10I think the one thing that running has this edge over right now versus even lifestyle basketball sneakers is just comfort. I think everyone knows if you ever wear a Dunk, an Air Force One, an AirDroid One, even a Puma Clyde, we could go way back to those shoes. None of those shoes are really comfortable, to be honest. And I think that's the biggest challenge that a basketball scene being like a huge lifestyle thing, like, or coming back to a huge lifestyle thing is, has it has right now. Like, you know, it's like, it's just how are you going to address that comfort? I mean, I know with the Air Jordan 40, right?

16:45Like, I think they combined Zoom X or like, it's like technology that's usually found like performance running sneakers and they combine it with another like Zoom technology for that. And I feel like that was maybe a way to address like the comfort issue, I guess. But to me, that's the biggest hurdle. It's just it's not as comfortable as like a new bounce or a Hoka. I was going to ask also about the fact that there are some of these emerging brands like Anta and others that are pushing some of the design innovation that we're seeing today. Although it's not managed to get us over the hurdle in terms of sales numbers, there is some new energy coming into the basketball sneaker world.

17:18Like you talk a little bit about those those newer emerging or maybe smaller brands. So there's the big, big players like Adidas, like Nike, like Puma. But what about some of the smaller players? Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's really interesting to see how ANSYS isn't gaining traction, you know, by signing like athletes like Kyrie to make signature shoes. And also like how they're really pushing heavily into the US. Like I think they're actually set to open a store this fall in Los Angeles, which is really a huge and interesting development. I'm not necessarily following or seeing those like shoes. I don't necessarily see Ant's shoes being worn like Air Jordans by any means.

17:57But I think what I'm gathering from why they're breaking through into the performance basketball space is that they're really offering something different from all these other major sneaker brands. And I think it's because they know what position they're in, as these Chinese sportswear companies that don't have, I guess, the global recognition as Nike or Adidas. And they're trying to, I think, get up there, is that they're just trying to be more experimental. I mean, when I look at some of those styles by Ant's, So like, honestly, like some of them look closer to like hokas to me or like, I think the one shoe that really stuck out to me was Kyrie did a shoe.

18:28I think it was called like the chief and it would have like these tassels that kind of almost remind me of like VisBim sneakers. Right. And it was like a call to his indigenous or Native American heritage. And I thought it made so much sense to do that. But that's the thing. It's like, I think they're taking just a little bit more risk and also just trying to be a little more experimental. I was going to say, Mike, you said your sneaker heads are looking for something very unique that stands out. Doesn't ANTA meet that muster or is it sort of too unique or too unknown in the space? I mean, that's a really good point.

18:58But I do think that it probably is maybe a bit too much of an unknown for most people. Like there are people who are like super initiated into this stuff who do by like Leaning and ANTA. And like specifically, like I've seen way of Wade enthusiasts or whatever. And like that's like a really unique thing to sort of enter into the market. And I do think that the overseas brands sort of push the innovation forward a little bit. Like if you look at, for example, like the Air Jordan 39, like it'll remind you a lot of the way of weight 808, I think, number five. I want to say like it's a it's a very similar looking silhouette.

19:42at like the technology is kind of the same. And so like, you can kind of see like the two markets playing off each other a little bit there as far as like performance and aesthetic. I'm not sure that we'll ever see, like Leigh was saying, like, I don't know if we'll ever see like those brands sort of have the same cachet that like a Jordan brand does in this market. But I think that's totally okay because not many brands will. Like the other brand is Michael Jordan. And so like there's a whole legacy that comes with that, that not only do overseas brands not have, but a brand like say a New Balance or Puma might not necessarily have either.

20:26They might have a little bit more, but it's still not coming close to like that Nike and Jordan signature silhouette it or whatever. So like, I think the market is in a really good place as far as like choices for consumers right now. And that's really like the best thing I think we can ask for.

20:47We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.

20:54So going back to the point that, you know, Brian mentioned earlier, basketball sneaker sales are down 8%. We are sort of calling it a revival right now. Is this a revival? What will make it a revival that sticks? Or is this just all a part of the footwear cycle? Things are cool one minute, they're not cool the next. Where do we land? Both of you. I'll start with you, Mike. I would call this a revival. Yeah. And I think like the sales numbers are down right now. And I think that's fair to point out. But I also think it might be, we might be looking at a little bit of a lag because like you think about it the AE1 didn't come out until late 2023 and it sort of reached its apex last year in like the middle the summertime of last year after the NBA season and so like after that you add the A1 signature sneaker and then like the AE2 is coming and then like you got some of the the fear of God athletic stuff that that's coming down the pipeline there's just a lot coming still and a lot to sort of add on to what we've seen previously.

21:59And I think more brands are starting to think about basketball sneakers in a way that they haven't in the last decade. And so like, I think it could take years before basketball sneakers become the profitable venture that we saw them as in like the 90s and early 2000s, even the early 2010s. But I think we'll get there eventually. And maybe this is just my nostalgia kicking in for like when I was wearing like KDs and LeBrons in 08 and 09. But I just really feel like we're just inching closer and closer to get into that moment again. Yeah. I personally think like, you know, when it comes to like a good sneaker is like a good sneaker, you know, like, and that's why like Air Force Ones are still being worn today or like, you know, even Chuck Taylors, right?

22:46So when I see like these like shoes that I feel like look stylish right now, like, I feel like they have the potential just to have that longevity even a decade from now. I mean, I think about phone pods. It's how brands like Comde Garcons have started making their own versions of it. Or just the fact that what also helps kind of create this, I guess, or turns these things. It's like cultural artifacts or whatever. Just how they're marketed to the AE ones, the ads around that. right where it's like you know he's like just like trash talking and he's like you know really amping to shoe up and it's like it's this really memorable backdrop and like you know like you remember the commercials you know and it's like those are the types of things that i think it does stand the test of time if it works right now and um i honestly i'm not pessimistic about it i think you know not every star will live but i think you know something like the ae i think people will remember that like 10 15 years from that well i think i have to take my sneaker collection from 35 to 40.

23:51I have to add five basketball sneakers that I've written down. And I will take mine from five to six. That's progress. We are fueling the revival. Leigh and Mike, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Sheena. It was a pleasure to come on. Thanks, guys. I appreciate y 'all having me. Please be sure to check out Leigh's article, The Fashion Revival of Basketball Sneakers at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available Divya Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You'll also see there how to subscribe to Mike's newsletter, The Kicks You Wear.

24:27You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.