How Beauty Blunders Go Viral and What Brands Do Next

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. Going viral, it's a marketer's dream, but only if it's for the right reasons. As beauty brands have learned the hard way, having hundreds of thousands of social media users posting about your products is far from a win when the brand itself isn't in control of the narrative. From indie brand Euphoria's Complexion Snafu to Huda Beauty's mislabeling mishap and my L Organics hair loss claims it's no fun recovering from public missteps.

0:45And the common thread in most beauty brand controversies, how a company manages the fallout determines whether it's a short-term setback or a serious threat to a brand's survival. With me to discuss the controversies and the path to a rebound is beauty correspondent Daniela Morissini. Hi, Daniela. Welcome to the Debrief Podcast. Thanks for having me. So, Daniela, have you experienced a beauty snafu before? And tell us about it. who among us hasn't had a bad hair day here and there i think i've been kind of fortunate and i've never had like touch wood an allergic reaction or something super extreme but there's definitely photos of myself especially as a teenager that i look back on and i i do wonder what i was thinking maybe with them or the eyeliner so not the product to your use of the product it was user error we can say that much i love that so with beauty virality can be a double edge sword, right?

1:36Sometimes it skyrockets a brand to success, like with Miel's Rosemary Mint Oil, when it initially went viral last year for the hair growth benefits. But as we know, virality can also go in the other direction. It can turn against brands very quickly. I want to start with Euphoria. What happened with Euphoria and that foundation? So I think what's interesting about Euphoria is that it was a very, very small brand and it still remains to be quite an indie brand. So back in October of last year, they released a foundation for the first time. They hadn't previously offered one. They'd offered more kind of lip glosses and blushes and things like that.

2:10And I believe that they had about 15 shades when they launched and only about three of them were labeled medium to deep. So they only really had a couple of darker shades that would suit darker skin tones. There was a backlash then. People said that, hey, this isn't good enough. We want to wear this foundation and we can't because you're not making shades for us. This is the darkest shade. It's the alleged shade here in the room with us. This keeps happening because tone inclusivity is not something these beauty companies are worried about. They do not care. The founder kind of seemed to take that on board and said, okay, we're going to do better.

2:44We're going to release more shades. And then when they did release more shades at the top of this year, one of the shades that they released, I mean, I think it's worth noting that the shade extensions were still not great. There weren't really still enough options and sort of variations for people with darker skin tones. But one shade in particular, shade 600. Which side of my face is the black face paint or the Youthphoria Foundation? Tea, you can't tell. You know why? Tar in a bottle. When you pumped the product out of the bottle, it appeared to be just completely black. Like as in like black paint for your wall, black.

3:16When we say that we want you guys to make shades for us, we don't mean to go to the lab and ask for menstrual show black. What we mean is to take the browns that you have made, create undertones and do what you need to do in the lab. So it's a darker shade of black. I think I saw a clip of a TikTok user that put that shade against like clown paint, like, you know, the paint they use for a clown's nose. So that's not great. That's like an era that touches on things like diversity and inclusion and testing a product and having trial subjects that represent the full spectrum of people in the world.

3:53And then you have Huda Beauty, which is, you can fill us in better than I can. But what happened there? That was more of a mislabeling kind of thing. Tell us about that. Yeah. And what's interesting is that compared to Euphoria, Huda Beauty is a much, much bigger brand with much more scale. And it's, you know, in a lot more retailers and it's been around for a lot longer. And what happened with that situation is actually they kind of actually managed to stop it before it even became viral. Essentially, they were releasing a new foundation. So up until now, their foundations have skewed very heavy, very full glamour.

4:23This was their first kind of light, more like a tinted moisturizer, a lighter foundation. And they had a mislabeling issue where, for example, say you would normally shade 10. They accidentally labeled shade 11 as shade 10. So people who would normally buy one shade thinking it's going to match their skin tone perfectly actually got a shade that was one shade lighter, if that makes sense. So it made the initial people who received the product, I think it was mainly influencers, when they received the product, they felt, oh my God, you've had this shade for years that suited me really well. And now you've made it lighter.

5:00And in actuality, they hadn't made it lighter. They hadn't changed the shade. They just had a bit of a labeling issue. And what was really interesting is the founder, it's a founder-led brand. She very quickly got on TikTok. She probably posted it to Instagram too as well, I'm sure, and posted a very heartfelt video. And she explained exactly what went wrong. Okay, my loves, I wanted to get on here really, really quick and just share something, some really unfortunate news and something that I'm really embarrassed about. And it's regarding our easy blur. Of course, I'm really excited about this.

5:31She took full accountability. She was like, this was human error. I should have checked it again. She was incredibly apologetic. She offered to make everybody whole if they had accidentally bought the wrong shade and said she'd worked with the retailers to make sure that nobody would continue to get the wrong shade. So she was very proactive with it. Proactivity is a very important thing before momentum in a backlash builds. So Huda Booty got out of front of it. Givenchy did not. Recently, they had a whole saga with a range of blushes that they put out. What happened there, Daniela? Yeah, so it was actually a YSL range of blushes.

6:07I know we were talking about the Givenchy earlier because they reformulated a powder and just it wasn't the most popular reformulation besides the point. So they had this new range of blushes come out and it was a number of different shades. And I think there were a few that were a little bit unusual in their color, but one in particular that was kind of very unusual to see in the Western market, because we don't see this a lot, was a kind of lavender tone blush. Now, these blushes are actually very popular in the kind of East Asian market. Lots of brands over there offer different kinds of lavender blushes, and they're really popular.

6:37But the difficulty was this time that YSL marketed all of the blushes as being suitable for all skin tones. Like in the marketing materials, they're using models of all races. And then you like enter with this situation where influencers and customers at home went out, they bought this lavender blush. And if they were of a darker skin tone, they generally found that it either didn't show up on their skin at all, or it certainly wasn't giving that really flattering, beautiful effect that the advertising was promising them. So what are the signs that momentum is building and that a backlash is likely to become viral?

7:11I think what's so interesting is just how quickly it happens. social media can be a very fractious place. And some of these videos that have gone super viral calling brands out, sometimes it has been from a creator who has a lot of followers. There's one called Gloria George who makes incredible content rightfully calling out brands for their lack of shade diversity. But sometimes it's a really unknown creator, you know, in the same way that an unknown creator can make a brand go viral for good reasons and be like, this is the greatest product ever. Sometimes it's an unknown creator who can make it go viral for the wrong reason.

7:41And so it happens pretty fast when it does happen. Are there categories that are most impacted online? So, I mean, hair is obviously a huge one because it's connected to so many things. It can be, I don't want to say, you know, blush isn't traumatic or foundation isn't traumatic, but hair is something especially different. So, Daniela, what beauty categories are the most impacted by viral backlash? I think you're right. Hair is such a common one because it's such an emotional sensitive thing. I think we all have such attachments to our hair and hair loss is really traumatic for anybody who goes through it.

8:15I think it is mainly the hair and also any kind of complexion product because it's just so obvious when a brand has missed the mark with complexion, right? Like you might sit here and be like, well, I like this particular texture of a cleanser and I might say that I don't like it at all, but that doesn't really affect your kind of sensibilities about it. It's just personal preference. Whereas when there's a complexion product that is just not working for you, that can feel really exclusionary. There's something interesting with Euphoria. People think that Euphoria's complexion snafu was intentional.

8:44I can't imagine what would be the upside for a brand to want to do that. Have you seen evidence of these kinds of viral, seemingly negative moments being intentional on a brand's part? And what would be the benefit of that? I mean, of course, that expression, you know, all publicity is good publicity comes to mind. I don't think that's true. There's plenty of things that I like to kind of get my tinfoil hat on about. This is not one of them. No company would willingly put themselves in the middle of this kind of a situation. Just because with Euphoria, for example, they ended up getting dropped by a lot of their retailers.

9:19I believe Credo and Revolve stopped stocking them. So it had a huge cost to the business. And they weren't well known. And yes, they did become well known because of it, but not for good reasons. If you look at their Instagram comments now, however many months or even a year after the fact, people are still talking about it. It doesn't really seem like they've been able to move on from it. It's true. If you don't have a reputation, you build it on something negative. It's very hard to walk back from that. About these viral moments, how often are they rooted in fact? Sometimes one person is the spark that starts the fire and then something takes off and then we get very far away from the facts.

9:57To what extent are these kinds of moments from where you sit, of course, rooted in fact? And to what extent is it just, you know, people that say jumping on the bandwagon or maybe incorrectly attaching their experience to something that they saw online? Yeah, it's difficult. There's this expression that's used a lot in beauty forums, which is your mileage may vary, which is that say I recommended you a product and I said, you know, your mileage may vary. You might not have the same great experience with it that I do. I think that only really goes so far as you may not find this product as moisturizing or as glossy or a more superficial quality, right?

10:33I think if someone has a bad experience with a product, that is a fact. They might not be able to transpose their bad experience to other users. Not everybody's gonna have that bad experience in the same way that they won't have a good experience. But oftentimes I think the worst scandals, like the ones that really seem to cause a lot of blowback, they come back to that exclusionary point. It's that the product in some way is excluding a large group of consumers and nobody likes to feel left out. Absolutely. I want to pivot again. I've been sort of teasing this for the last few minutes with the Miel saga.

11:05Miel Organics being a multicultural hair care brand. I mean, I think the brand calls itself beauty, but it mostly focuses on hair. So we were talking about this earlier, sort of our own beauty snafus, and I'll share one of mine, which is related to hair. So I have a son, he's 10. When I had my son a decade ago, in the first six months of giving birth, one day I washed my hair and it came out in clumps, right? All across the front. Two things that happened, the obvious one, I'd given birth, but I'd also started using a new leave-in conditioner maybe for a few weeks. I didn't know about postpartum hair loss, first of all, but I didn't know what had happened.

11:43I thought about the new leave-in conditioner. And then I also checked with my doctor and my hairstylist. They both said, you know, you've given birth, very likely to be a cause postpartum hair shedding. To this day, I will not touch that leave-in conditioner again. I tell that story for two reasons. There's a complexity of knowing what is the cause, right? In this case, I think we're about 99 % sure it's postpartum. But the fact that that conditioner could have had a 1 % contribution to my hair loss and the traumatic experience of that, I will not touch it. So I say that to talk about Myel's situation.

12:15So last year, Myel Organics, rosemary mint oil went viral for its purported hair growth benefits, right? Then in September of this year, the very same product, well, the full line. The hair oil, but also the shampoo and conditioner went viral again when a TikTok user claimed that that product or those sets of products caused her hair to fall out. And then dozens of users joined the fray and started talking about similar experiences. Hair loss is a particularly challenging one. Daniela, what unique challenges do hair brands face in efficacy? I think I've just painted a picture of how complicated it is.

12:51But from your perspective in covering beauty, why is the blowback so ferocious for hair and why are the challenges so unique to the founders I think hair loss is it's a really complex issue as you experienced right with your postpartum experience there are so many things that can cause hair loss from stress I mean the hair actually has a growth cycle like everybody's hair goes through a growth cycle that includes a dedicated shedding stage sometimes you get you know people talked about COVID hair loss I believe that's called telogenifluium, but like after getting a viral infection, you can have hair shedding.

13:24So first of all, if you are going through hair loss, there are so many things that can be from hormonal reasons, blood work, whatever it may be. And then on top of that, losing one's hair, especially if it's a significant amount, is it's just such a traumatic experience. And even if you've not experienced it, it's just something people don't want to roll the dice with, right? If there's even a 1 % chance, like you say, that a product could cause a little bit of hair loss, you're just not going to risk it. And I want to talk about Maiel's response to those accusations. So the founder, Monique Rodriguez, took to her Instagram account and made a video addressing the concerns directly, attempting to reassure customers about the quality and safety of their products.

14:02So Monique Rodriguez is one of less than a handful of Black women to have built and scaled and then sold her brand. So she sold it to P &G last year. And also she's catering to a consumer with a very fraught history with usually white-led conglomerates selling products to people that don't look like them. So she's contending with a unique set of circumstances. So, Daniela, Maiel is far from the only hair brand to experience this kind of backlash and controversy. Tell us how that's different than what Olaplex experienced last year and then Devacurl a few years prior. They all face some kind of blowback, but each situation is different.

14:44Talk us through how they're different. I think what is so interesting about the Myel situation is this is a brand that was founded by a black woman and the products really speak to the needs of black women and their hair. And this is a group of consumers who have been left out of the beauty conversation at multiple points and continue to be so. And there's often not products for curly, coily, kinky hair that really perform, that really feel luxury. And I think that, you know, Mial Organics is a brand that was really making that experience for that consumer really special and really luxury. And this was a brand that felt, you know, for them, by them, as it were.

15:20So when the accusations or the rumors started to swirl that there could be a hair loss incident attached to the brand, it stung on a different level for a lot of consumers. And then if you're thinking about something like an Olaplex, for example, you know, the brand was and is super, super popular. And it was also founded on a promise of hair repair, right? That's the whole promise of Olaplex. It's going to undo all the damage that all that heat styling and bleaching and color treating has done to your hair. So as soon as it became super popular and then people started to feel that there could be a chance it was causing hair loss, as soon as those accusations get thrown around, especially because it's a brand that had its foundational promise on repair and care, again, you can see it's really damaging.

16:00And same thing for Divacar. You know, this was a cool cult brand that had a really big following. And as soon as people started to feel like there could be a chance it was causing hair us, it can become damaging for the brand really quickly. Olaplex, if I recall correctly, they had about a dozen complainants that were seeking class action status and that was denied, which means that they couldn't find a common thread of their experiences that raised the muster of being class action. And then Devacurl had another, I mean, they paid a settlement several years ago, about$5 million to settle their complaints.

16:31And I think they also had to provide some resources to people that had hair loss experiences. I want to switch a little bit to acquisitions. So I mentioned this earlier with Mayel being sold to P &G. And you talked about this a little bit, Danielle. I want to unpack further why acquisitions are so contentious in beauty and what people get so vigilant about. So I interviewed a biochemist, Nosheen, for this story. And she talked about what can happen when a brand switches hands. And to be clear, Mayel says that they have not changed their product formulas and they have not changed their manufacturing facilities.

17:05But there is something that is likely to happen, according to Nasheen, when a brand does change hands. So a lot of times a parent company will be after, and Daniela, you might have a thought of this, they might be after cost savings, which sometimes affects the formulation. So it can go a couple of different ways, right? Sometimes it's swapping out an ingredient altogether for something that's maybe cheaper or a generic version of whatever the ingredient is. Sometimes it's using different percentages of the same ingredients. And this is what I thought was interesting and I did not know. You could take the exact same formula, but mix it together in a different facility and that could also give you a slightly different result.

17:46It may not be that it causes people's hair to fall out, but it could just make the effectiveness a little different or it could just not work as well or just work differently. What have you seen? Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like the million or I should say like billion dollar question, right? You know, when big companies buy indie beauty brands, what are they going to do with their precious products? And I think you see this really well exemplified. Like if you'll ever look at the Instagram comments on a news story, like a BOF news story, where we've spoken about an acquisition, there will often be someone in the comments or multiple people saying, oh, there goes my favorite product, right?

18:16Like there is this idea that the acquiring company is going to come in and they're going to change the formula. They're going to cut costs. I mean, look at it this way, right? The acquiring company, they've bought the brand partly because of the strengths of the products, right? And so why would they want to mess with a product that's performing well and it has a loyal fan base? They also should be buying the business because its profit margins are good, right? So if they have all these great products and their profit margins are completely out of whack, they're probably not going to get acquired or they are going to get acquired.

18:44And like you say, the acquirer is going to come in and try and cut some corners or just find some ways to streamline the process. If they are going to change the formula, you would hope that they are also going to really invest in quality control and make sure that any changes or substitutions to the formula are still going through the same level of quality control. So the product is still performing in the same way, but reformulations can be really unpopular. I mean, Glossier made their lip balm, their famous balm.com, they made it into a vegan formula because that's what they thought the consumer wanted.

19:16They were getting pressure, you know, take out the beeswax, make it vegan. And eventually they changed the formula back because people really did not like it. So people just don't really like change. I think that's part of the problem. I was going to say change. People are very change averse. And then sometimes we've seen this with hair care and I've seen brands argue before, like, yes, the formulation is different, but it's actually better. Like sometimes we can add something that improves the product or makes it more efficacious. And I think consumers are just averse to the idea that I love something so much.

19:45I hold it there. It works for me. Please don't change it. So I want to talk about what brands can do when it all goes wrong. We had the great example earlier of Huda Beauty sort of taking it by the reins very early on, not allowing the virality to actually happen. But brands tend to fall into two major pitfalls or two major categories here. They can either create a product that has some significant flaws or they can mishandle customer complaints. And sometimes they do both. So what are the best practices that you've seen, Daniela, in terms of how you create a safe and effective product in beauty in the first place?

20:19And are there industry standards that some brands are neglecting? I mean, when it comes down to safety and efficacy, you know, I don't have a white coat on right now, so I can't really say too much about, you know, there's lots of great, you know, quality controls. And I think also just making sure that you are not skipping that quality control part and you are really investing in R &D. And if you are outsourcing parts of your production, as many companies do to bring down costs, that's not necessarily a bad thing, that you do have oversight as to what is going on in those, you know, in those production facilities.

20:48So another thing is obviously, like you were saying that Norsheen brought this to you, is that you can change a really, really small part of the production process and end up with a very, very different product. You know, you could be using different, I don't know, materials or beakers or a different facility and end up with a product that's really different. But all of that, and I mean, I've actually, I've spoken to Norsheen before. She's such an incredible source for these things. One thing she mentioned to me in another conversation was that two different users may have a different experience with the same product because of their home conditions, right?

21:17So let's say that a product is made in Italy, it's shipped to me in London, and then another one is shipped to somebody who lives in Dubai or a really, really hot country. The heat that they have in their country might cause the product to break down at a faster rate and therefore not perform in the same way. So it's really hard to get that kind of industry-wide or as a consumer-wide level of consistency. Absolutely. And another thing Nasheen said was around the clinical trials. One thing that I learned is that you'll see a lot of brands put this label like tested by dermatologists. That's actually the most, to use her words, the cheapest and most base level thing you can do.

21:54That tells you that the product is unlikely to damage the scalp, to cause irritation. There's another step for hair products. She said there's strand tests, pull tests, all these things to actually see how the product reacts to your hair and whether or not it causes it to grow or cause it to fall out, whether the hair absorbs enough moisture, all of these different things that you can do to hair products specifically. None of these things will say no one's going to have a negative experience with the product. But what they do do is they shield a brand to show we have done everything in our power to prove that this product is effective and safe.

22:28And that becomes the first line of defense against an accusation. And then when you have brands as they get bigger, so like Olaplex is obviously hugely popular. Myel is hugely popular. You have so many more use cases, right? You mentioned the example of international shipping. As you get bigger, you have more people using a product and more people to have different lifestyles, different life experiences, different diseases or health statuses. And that all opens it up to more possibilities of negative experiences, even if they don't all go back to the brand. But if you're able to pull out a clinical trial result, one of those really intensive tests, you can show you've done everything you can, which is like step one in preventing a bigger fall or at least legal implications.

23:08I want to talk about what does an effective response. Let's say all of that has happened or not happened. And now you're facing a viral moment. What is an effective response to these kinds of claims look like? Euphoria, Huda Beauty is a good example. Mael, did they make any mistakes from where you sit? Well, I think actually kind of leading it back to what you were just saying, a really important part of preventing something like this from happening, it's not just on the efficacy side of things. It's also on the inclusion side, right? Like if we look at the cosmetic side of things, time and time again, they're falling down simply because they're not making their shade ranges wide enough.

23:41I think what the issue there is when you're making this brand, if you are the founder or you've got a small group of founders and you are not dark skinned individuals, you are not people of color, look around the room and think who is not here, who has not tried this product, who has not tested it and make sure that you're not just relying on your production facility or whoever's making the product for you to do that testing. You need to get that in the hands of the people who are actually the right shades and listen to them when they say this didn't work for me or this was good, but the undertones need to be a little bit different.

24:11I mean, something that I hear so much from creators who create content where they're talking about the products just not being inclusive is they're like, yeah, they make a foundation and it suits me, but they don't make a bronzer that's dark enough for me or a contour stick that's dark enough for me. So not only is there that that person's being left out, but the brand is also missing out on two or three more upsells from that main product. Absolutely. And another thing I was thinking about sort of afterwards, I think those are great points in terms of beforehand. I think it's a big mistake that a lot of you wouldn't believe, I think, how many companies make the mistake of not thinking about diversity in clinical trials and testing in consumer conversations.

24:47Then after the fact, how do you respond when you've not done everything right in the first place? One of the things that I heard from an expert in my story was that you might want to respond in the medium where the backlash is happening. So like Mayel, Monique Rodriguez did that. She went on social media. There were criticisms about her tone in the response that maybe it was defensive. Maybe she was reading from a script. There's all those things that happen. But one step is to respond in the medium that it's happened. Have you seen other things that would add to that in terms of after the backlash?

25:20Yeah, I think responding in the medium, that makes total sense, right? With these smaller brands or at least founder-led brands, you know, the Huda beauties of the world, they have a face. They have somebody who can come out and make some kind of a statement. It is often a video. But I think having a degree of candor, of transparency and making it clear that you understand what you did wrong, not just that non-pology of I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. actually engaging with it and making sure you understand that you got it wrong and you want to do better next time. For bigger brands, it gets harder, right?

25:54So for a brand that's owned by a conglomerate or it's like a fashion house brand, who is the face of that brand? They don't have a founder who can come out and kind of own that. So what's been more effective, I think, for some of those bigger brands is they kind of, in the moment, they take it on the chin, but behind the scenes, they make sure that they reach out to those creators or those individuals who did criticize them and ask them to help, ask them to be consultants and compensate them very well, compensate them fairly for their time and just basically do better the next time around because you might not have somebody who you can get out and make, you know, the face of your apology as it were.

26:29Have you seen any brands recover so well that they actually come out stronger after a crisis like this? That's interesting. One thing I have seen is, I don't know about stronger, but I've seen them recover really well. And the creator I mentioned earlier, who's a Galoria, there was a foundation from a brand called One Size and she criticized it and she was like, hey, these shades absolutely don't work for me. And then the brand went away. They improved the shade range. And I remember she posted a follow-up and she actually said in the video, this is what redemption looks like. And she was really praising the brand.

27:00I remember there was another one where she said the founder of the brand, I believe it was Hayley Bieber from Heroi brand actually called her on her personal cell phone and asked for her opinions and listened to her and apologies and compensated her for her time. You know, so I think there is a way to bounce back from that. Absolutely. I've also seen this with Miel. I mean, I want to say with Miel, we're still in the early innings, but I've seen Monique Rodriguez sort of take this on directly. She's been posting on her social media consistently showing the facilities, showing the factories have not changed, showing herself putting the product in her hair every day.

27:31I think that kind of hands-on, transparent, candid, I'm one of you thing will work out for this brand in the long term, I think. As we wrap up today's conversation, it's clear that while beauty brands thrive on the power of going viral, the same power can obviously very quickly turn against them if they're not careful. Whether that's a faulty product or a misstep in communication or even an acquisition that creates uncertainty, managing public perception is probably the most important thing a beauty brand can do today. We've discussed all the different ways brands can stumble and the ways that they can recover or fall further into controversy in some cases.

28:06As more brands aim to grow and enter the beauty market, Daniela, how can they be sure they build relationships with customers that are resilient and authentic? I honestly think it comes down to putting your money where your mouth is. If you are going to use the channels of Instagram, Facebook, social media, even, you know, customer pop-ups, if you're really going to engage with your community and try and create a community around your brand to help it grow, you have to be willing to listen to that community and let them tell you when you have got it wrong. You know, you can't be digging your heels in and trying to explain your way out of it or getting defensive.

28:40You need to be willing to do the work to pay up for the right kind of consultants to accept when you've got it wrong and kind of provide space for growth. And I think the community generally, like they understand that people make mistakes. Where it gets difficult is where you repeatedly make the same mistake over and over again, or when the issue comes in, you just kind of respond to it on the defensive and you don't really create that space to have a natural back and forth and a feedback with your customers. So I think if you are going to create a community or try and create a community to help your brand grow, you need to understand that those customers, they'll want a seat at the table.

29:15They don't want to be outside of your business as it were. Absolutely. Very well said. Daniela, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. This was great. Please be sure to check out Daniela's articles, What to Do When a Beauty Product Launch Goes Wrong, and my article, Why Beauty Brands Keep Getting Accused of Hair Loss and What They Can Do About It at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies, mixed and mastered by Eric Bria.

29:48I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.