How Dupe Culture is Challenging Traditional Luxury

0:07Hello, and welcome to The Debrief from The Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. And I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. Today, we're talking about dupe culture. Dupes are everywhere these days, from Lululemon's leggings on Amazon to the ever-copied Bottega Veneta teardrop earrings. And of course, Trader Joe's Brazilian Nut Buttercream bears a striking resemblance to Sol de Janeiro's Boom Boom Cream. We're looking at brands like Quince and Italic that have gained traction by offering high-quality alternatives to luxury items at lower price points.

0:46Their success tells us a lot about how today's shoppers are navigating a market where traditional luxury brands are focused on the 1 % and fast fashion dominates the budget-conscious end. With us today is BOF correspondent Malik Morris, who has recently written on the topic. Hi, Malik. Welcome to the Debrief Podcast. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I always love coming on here. So I want to start with asking both of you, have you shopped a dupe website before and what did you buy? Brian? I sure have. I have used both Quince and Italic, although not for fashion. I bought a pasta press off of Italic and I bought linen sheets off of Quince.

1:23I was very happy with the quality of both. The pasta was delicious and I'm sleeping very well. Some interesting quirks. I would say the shipping time is quite lengthy. It's not what you're used to with e-commerce. So it actually took two weeks for both these items to arrive. But quality-wise, it's just like something you would buy in any store. And I guess, like, Malik, my question for you is, what is the difference between a dupe and a counterfeit? I mean, when I bought that pasta press, was I ripping off Williams-Sonoma on some level? Well, I mean, that's a great question. And it is important to make that distinction.

1:57From my understanding, dupes are usually directly imitating a type of design, whereas countervits tend to be exact replicas of a product with a brand's trademark logo intact. And it's interesting because you're talking about lifestyle products, like homeware. But when it comes to fashion dupes, it can be sort of abstract or concrete. and like in the case of a company like quince you know it's a little more concrete because they're directly copying their clothes from a range of brands across price points anywhere from the likes of like a todd snyder to everlane or narizia i mean quince's ads which i'm sure we'll get into a bunch later um will actually show their product and price next to the brands they've copied so they're actually not hiding it at all whereas a company like italic is producing you know clothes modeled after and made in the same factories as luxury brands like Brunello Cuccinelli.

2:55And Italic has a similar proposition to Quint in selling quality goods at affordable prices, but they aren't directly copying the designs of luxury brands, but it's similar and undifferentiated enough to qualify as a kind of dupe, if that makes sense. That does. So it's a bit like when I go to Zara and buy something, and it's probably quite similar to some runway design that was shown a season ago, but it's not a direct ripoff. It doesn't have the Gucci logo all over it. Correct. I mean, I do also think the difference there too, is that with the company, like a Quince or an Italic, they're actually trying to argue that the quality of the product is comparable to the higher end brands, whereas Zara is not even kidding themselves to do the same.

3:44Oh, I don't know about that. With us today, You know, Brian brought up a good point about asking whether or not he was inadvertently ripping off William Sonoma and buying the pasta press machine. Is the dupe shopper aware? Obviously, with Quince, they're showing you what they're giving you a lower cost version of. But sometimes the shopper themselves doesn't know that it's a dupe. To what extent is the customer for an Italic or a Quince aware that they're getting a dupe version? Are they pursuing that? I think for the Quince customer, it's like it's pretty front and center. That is their proposition as they're coming to us because we say we're the same value, but we're much cheaper than who we're ripping off.

4:23I think with Italic, it is, again, a little bit more abstract. It's a little bit more of this concept of like luxury without labels. You can come to us to get the same quality and the same aesthetic and it is going to be on par, but you're not paying that sort of price. And I think for the consumer in that regard, they're not going into it thinking, I want a Brunella Cuccinelli-esque sweater. So I'm going to go to Italic and I can't afford it. But the whole proposition there is that I'm going to Italica because they have really good things and it's within my price range. And it's a really, really good quality.

4:50Whereas, you know, with the Quintz, it is very much like I can't afford that toss sign. I think I'm not willing to pay for it. So I'm going to go to Quintz. That's a really compelling argument, especially today when there is this talk of a wider flight to value with consumers, people fed up with high prices, with inflation, with luxury brands hiking their prices over and over. That's really a winning proposition, I think. No, totally. And I mean, it's so interesting because like the term dupe stems from duplication, but it also does speak to consumer sentiment around pricing today. Like they do feel duped, you know, for lack of a better term.

5:23And luxury brands have exponentially raised their prices for hip products, you know, in a way that is locking out middle class shoppers, you know, who typically could spurge on, you know, a few nice bags or a few nice sweaters a year. And there's also this chatter among consumers about the quality of those hit products, whether it's Dior, whether it's Chanel's flat bag, or whether it's Hermes. The fact that some of these price hikes are not necessarily matching the improvement in quality of those products. And again, going back to the consumer point of view, we're in this age of choice and access.

6:00So, you know, consumers don't have to feel like they need to directly buy into a luxury brand's aesthetic by purchasing their product. And, you know, that's what has made dupe sellers like Quint so compelling is that they are essentially aggrandizing the best parts of the dejuvenated proposition, which is a marriage of nice enough, well-made products, the lower prices of buying with the brand directly and the convenience of shopping online. And another aspect of this, too, is that dupe brands are, you know, they're also, and almost annoyingly, very transparent about pricing in terms of breaking down.

6:35This is how much it costs to make. And this is what we're selling it to you for. And that's refreshing for middle class shoppers who are seeing the prices of milk, eggs and, you know, the bottled water rise inexplicably outside of this sort of vague boogeyman of inflation, as well as, you know, their dreams of owning a Chanel bag is moving further away with no real explanation on that front either. And so you get the rise of these brands like a Quince or an Italic. And DTC brands have done price transparency since, you know, the 2010s when, like, we saw the rise of these types of companies. And some have moved away from it.

7:10But I do think now is a good time for the ones who are persistent in showing customers, you know, ostensibly how much they aren't being taken advantage of. Although I wonder about that. I mean, I'm literally a fashion reporter and I don't know what a fair price is to make, like, linen sheets in a factory in Italy. You know, so they can put that price there, but I don't know if someone looking at that is going to understand what they're looking at or whether it's actually fair. That's, I think that's a really, really good point. I mean, ostensibly, just from my sort of bare understanding of this, like things can be made in the same factory, but it really is contingent on like the access that the brand has in terms of certain supplies, the guidelines they're going to give to their manufacturing partners in terms of how to assemble the product.

7:53and the sort of manpower they have in terms of assessing quality control at those manufacturers. So just because you're made in the same factory doesn't necessarily mean you're getting the exact same quality. You're right. It is still incredibly nebulous to consumers, you know, and that is still a point of contention. You know, we'll probably get into this a bit later as well. But like even looking at, you know, Reddit forums and reviews for Quince, it's not abysmal where it's like, oh, this is actually crap product. And they're selling it as if it's comparable to, you know, quality brands. But some customers are saying, well, this is good, but it's not great.

8:26And they're telling me that it's great or it should be great or what have you. So, yeah, it is something that's incredibly nebulous and sort of really hard to sort of crack. And speaking of online and Reddit, what about social media platforms like Instagram and TikTok? How do they contribute to the success of a dupe brand today? Like I see a lot of those slides where there's like the real thing next to the duplicate item and like what's the better bargain kind of thing. What role does social media play in the success of these brands? Well, social media is instrumental to the rise of Duke brands.

8:56I mean, first of the fact that these brands buy tons of ads and those ads can appear alongside the brands they're copying. But Duke brands have also done really well to attract social media influencers whose entire proposition really is to offer their followers cheaper alternatives to the luxury goods they can't afford. And, you know, you see this on TikTok with beauty influencers flagging lookalike blushes and eyebrow pomade. I'm not a beauty person, so I'm just, you know, lip oil, lip oil, always lip oil. And you see it with content creators making videos where they show a photo of a stylish person, whether it's a celebrity wearing high end clothes.

9:33And they go down a list of where you can find similar but cheaper items. And they're listing brands like Quince in that mix. And, you know, most of this is non-sponsored content, by the way. So influencers are on this new kick of being transparent about what is an ad and what they're genuinely interested in. And, you know, since paid ads on social media are more expensive now and it's harder to target consumers, having influencers vouch for you helps a brand cut through right now. And now how long this can last is hard to say. Influencers are not always brand loyal and they have to move with the tide.

10:08So if consumers stop caring about dupes and engagement from that goes down, then social media leverage on this front will die out for these brands. But right now, it really is a boon for them. I think a great example of that is actually the opening of the story, Malik, that you recently wrote about Quince and what happened with Ndam. Can you tell us about that and what the CEO of Ndam said about Quince? So actually really was kind of what really put Quince on my radar or maybe looking at a little further beyond seeing their ads. So I believe it was like, you know, back in February, Nadam, this brand that's known for selling cashmere, and they also are like selling cashmere more affordably, but it's like around like over$100, but nothing too exorbitant.

10:52And you have Quince that's selling cashmere, and their cashmere is less than$100. And they, you know, have done ads. And again, this is not unique to Nadam. They've done this with brands like Todd Snyder and others where they're just putting the price in the product of one brand and saying, here's our price and product, and it's much cheaper and it's the same quality. But Adam took a lot of issue with this and felt, well, A, we've been doing this first, and B, you know, our pricing is there for a reason. And we put a lot of work and time and resources into doing the price to quality ratio on our end.

11:31So how dare you tell customers that we're not who we say we are. And also there's just, you know, getting very annoyed about the fact that this very direct price comparison is even allowed to be in marketing. And this is the thing that brands are allowed to do. You're allowed to say this is my product and it's better than this other person's products. This is why you should buy us. It's the name of the game. But it was very funny that Nadam, rather, actually made several social media posts on TikTok calling out Quince for what they thought was an unfair comparison. And the CEO of Nadam even went on to do interviews, you know, and say, yeah, this is nonsense.

12:10But also, like, we wanted to engage with this company because we thought it would be fun. So it was very, very trippy. Yeah. He said, I don't know if it's illegal, but I know that it is strange. It does cross a line, which is pretty unusual to see a company name check a competitor like that. I guess to me, it raises the question, though, is there just another even cheaper quince coming down the line that's going to do to quince what quince has apparently done to Nadam? I mean, there's a spectrum here where I guess like Sheehan's at the bottom. They put out those same kind of ads that say, look, our stuff looks just like this, but it's a dollar.

12:44you know and there's somewhere between shein and quince that there's another sweet spot where people say yeah this is good enough and it's a tenth of the price well there's that age-old uh adage of using price as a proxy is a race to the bottom so i i think it also raises the question of the longevity of a brand that emerges as like the antithesis or the out version of something else like is that a long-term strategy yeah well i mean i i think to clarify there is a growing sort of stigma for shopping with fast fashion, ultra fast fashion retailers like Shein or Timu who are constantly being lambasted online about their practices and environmental impact.

13:22And, you know, Duke brands like Quince and why they're actually standing out right now, they actually give shoppers a way to participate in fashion and not feel like they're buying crap and will ruin the planet in the name of looking good. So, you know, and again, they're growing like gangbusters. Like Quince, you know, as we say in our story, they double sales year over year and it's around$300 million in annual revenue. And it's not small potatoes at all for a DTC startup. And so this idea of where their competition is going to come in, actually, I think it's closer to me with Sheena saying this idea of how can they differentiate themselves as they continue to scale, where they're not just reliant on being the cheaper version.

13:56But I don't know the competition of Sheena is anything for them to really worry about because people are coming to them because they don't want to say that they're shopping at Sheena, if that makes sense. we'll be back with more of the debrief right after this

14:13i was thinking about you know this idea of dupe culture and whether or not it's out of control right so like the ethical implications speaking of a shein and a temu which we've we're all well versed here on the ethical implications there but with a brand like quince or italic compared to an ultra luxury rent, is there ethical implications here? And where do they begin and end in terms of competing with them on price and quality? Yeah. I mean, I think speaking of the ethics of it all, the concept of dupes are murky because you can't really trademark a design aesthetic. And honestly, even high-end brands copy one another and use the same trend forecasting companies to sell.

14:53Similarly, trendy clothes. Actually, it was so interesting. I was just thinking about this earlier today. like there was this um side by side that's some instagram account not diet product but a similar one where there was a recent collection from the brand kate next to the brand the row and very similar style and you know them getting heat for that like so this idea of like cribbing off someone's aesthetic again not illegal and also very difficult in terms of like it's a cheaper brand doing it versus a higher brand when the higher brands are doing it to each other you know And again, these brands are not selling direct replicas of a luxury product with a brand insignia, you know, whether that be a logo or some other identifiable trait like a red bottom, you know, when it comes to Louboutin.

15:34So it can't be framed as not entirely unethical because it's simply taking inspiration in that regard. But I think the idea of like our dupes, you know, out of control, our brilliant and great colleague, John Kennedy, wrote a wonderful story a few months ago. And, you know, we really haven't touched on the fact that it's not just the large luxury houses being duped. It's also expensive independent brands as well. And she touched on that a lot in her great story. And those brands are quite vulnerable here. You know, since they rely on sales of hit products to make a name for themselves and drive their overall business, you know, it doesn't help that an ultra fast fashion retailer or even a mid-priced dupe brand can come in and say, here's that same item for much less money.

16:17These indie brands don't have years of legacy and cachet to fall back on. You know, they need to push products that are unique to them and not just cool because it has their label. So in that sense, it can certainly feel like dupes are out of control. And again, the ethical lines are blurred there. You know, it's honestly fine to hold a larger brand's feet to the fire for juicing their margins with unseemly prices. And that's what a brand like Quince will say that they're doing in Italic as well. But a smaller brand trying to run a profitable business, you know, in charge of what they think a product is worth is much dicier when you have a dupe brand coming in and saying, well, we can do it for a lot less.

16:55So what should those brands be doing to make themselves dupe proof? Well, I mean, part of the reason why I love covering fashion, covering the business and covering the space, specifically, you know, DTC startups is that every brand right now is challenged. And like they have to get creative and they have to rethink playbooks that honestly have been lazy for a very long time and reconfigure how they should exist in the market. And I think, again, going back to, you know, independent designers, they are more vulnerable. But luxury across the board, you know, the check will come due for these luxury brands to explain why their prices are so high.

17:33That transparency is probably something they will need to infuse in their strategies. You know, it's going to take more than them saying we have the best quality when we have our brilliant sustainability editor, Sarah Kent, who has stories about Italian sweatshops or a Dior bag that costs thousands at retail, but it's made for less than$100, you know? And I will say luxury brands are getting better at their digital strategies. You know, they're investing in their e-commerce and they're pulling back from multi-brand retailers to focus on D2C. You know, they understand that people are channel agnostic, you know, and they want their bottega bag or the way of a sweater or what have you as fast as they want toilet paper from Amazon.

18:10But where they can still improve is not feeling like they're above embracing channels like TikTok and working with influencers who have entire pages dedicated to dissecting the price to quality ratio of their products. You know, like maybe give those influencers access to the product making process so they can vouch for you in front of increasingly skeptical and cash strapped middle class consumers, you know, who have been pulling away from buying some of these high end brands at a time where they can't really afford to do so. And, you know, maybe, I don't know, leverage the factories and how well those employees are treated ostensibly, you know, to your advantage.

18:44You know, make more content around that with people who have a tapped in audience. And I think that that's a way to maintain cachet, at least in a world where dupes are prevalent and also justify prices for your goods. You know, especially as we move away from easily recognizable logo driven products driving sales across luxury brands. And, of course, that part of it is cyclical, too. We have Miu Miu right now who can't keep local driven goods on their shelves selling out so often. But in all, we have a ways to go in regards to these luxury brands getting off their high horses about explaining the value of their products and the prices and why they're going up without diluting the mystique that makes them aspirational for middle class consumers in the first place.

19:25Yeah, I think that mystique is pretty important even now. I mean, just to come to the defense of brands as brands, this is why so many big luxury labels are talking about being cultural brands now. It's why LVMH just signed that 10-year deal with F1. It's a way to say you might be able to get like a big handbag from some other brand for a lot less money, but you won't get one that has this like association with the sport you love or the celebrity you love. And that does matter to people. And that mystique is not something to be entirely discounted. And it's definitely not something that Quince or Italic or any of these dupe brands has really shown an ability to create.

20:03Well, I think that's a really great point. Like, I mean, luxury brands are great at myth-making and the lore of owning something designer isn't going to go away. And actually, you know, honestly, if Quince and brands like that doesn't build their own world and drum up lore for their brands beyond good prices, then consumers will probably start to say, see you later, you know, when the economy improves and they can maybe afford some of these higher end brands again. So I think that's a really good thing to point out and a challenge for brands like Quince and other dupe brands down the line. Although now that I think about it, Elf and those Jennifer Coolidge ads, I mean, that must really scare high-end brands because they are basically a dupe brand that said, hey, we've got our own brand too.

20:45And people are going to like Elf for Elf, even though a lot of what we're making is the lip oil at a tenth of the price. Well, I think in that regard, you kind of just become a competitor rather than being essentially a ripoff. Duke brands, they have to focus, I think, on two things here in terms of that regards of like breaking out in the way that Elf did. It's like storytelling that makes you equally desirable to the brands you're copying and also creating hit products that feel as original to your brand as possible. So that way you can get away from, oh, I'm coming to you because you're the cheaper version.

21:17And then it's like, I'm coming to you because you create a storytelling. And also you have this thing and you're selling these goods that feel unique to you. And, you know, we see some brands sort of going in that direction along the vein of what Elf has done. Like our fabulous colleague, Daniela Morissini, who's one of our great beauty reporters, she wrote about the dupe fragrance brand Dossier, which I don't believe was a ripoff of the name Glossier because they sell scents. You sure about that? But, you know, they sell scents with very similar formulas to luxury brands. And they started selling original scents last year and introduced even more of them this year.

21:49And Daniela pointed out in her story that even an event that they did recently for the launch of some of their original scents had like two hour wait times to get in, you know. So will they succeed in becoming a fragrance name like Lilabo or Biredo? We'll have to see. But at least the effort is there to begin with. And in my story, you know, I talked to execs at Italic and, you know, the other two brands in this sort of ecosystem. And they told me that they're also trying to find their differentiator. I'm not sure if they landed on anything just yet, but it is something that they're thinking about and will eventually solve for.

22:21So I think there's a way for dupe brands to sort of break out of just being that and having storytelling, having original products in a way where they just become a competitor rather than a ripoff. I think beauty is probably a little different. I think if you like a lipstick, you like a lipstick. Maybe a T-shirt is a little different to think about from a dupe standpoint. In an ironic way, is there a chance, Malik, that dupes can actually strengthen the appeal of luxury brands? Do they make it more attractive to have the real thing because there's so many fakes in the marketplace? Is that a risk at all?

22:50I think it's so interesting because actually a product that I'm thinking about this summer was the both Alaya and the Roe mesh sandals, the mesh flats, and that kind of taking off. And I remember I actually went to an event earlier in the year, like in the spring, and this presumably very high-earning investor was there. And she's very, very stylish. And I was looking at her. She was like, oh, Alaya. And she was like, no, actually. And she mentioned a brand that I actually don't remember. But she got it much cheaper. And I think when it comes to the idea of dupes, when it is so concentrated around something that is very trendy, I don't know that it actually, there are upsides going back into the brand.

23:35Because I feel like that's something that just like even like, you know, Brian was talking about earlier, like Zara. Like people go into Zara because they were trying to get the look off the runway for less. And I don't know if they were actually then going to go and buy a similar thing from the luxury brand in that same season. But I think where luxury brands in some senses are probably protected is in shoring up and doubling down on those hero products that are not trendy. You know, those things that come around season after season and they're infusing something new, whether it's a new colorway, whether it's a new pattern, whether they're, you know, playing with materials and iteration of that, the way that they're doing at Bottega Veneta.

24:16I think that is probably a short bet here rather than thinking that, oh, this, you know, Alaya mesh flat where there are a bunch of Duke brands that are going to copy it. That means it's going to be sort of like a nice, you know, free fall back into our sale. I don't know if that's going to happen rather than saying, hey, customers, don't forget that we also are the originators of these types of silhouettes. And actually, here's something that's fun and new and exciting in these staple products that we have and pushing that more so and reminding customers like this is why you love us rather than thinking that a trendy product that's been duped is somehow going to benefit you in the long run.

24:54So the dupe customer and the luxury customer is essentially a different customer base is what we're saying though that one percent is who the luxury brands have really been zeroing in on. Is there a sliver of a middle-class consumer that the luxury brands are forgetting about and losing in this opportunity and is there a way to better connect with them? Is it around those products you just described? Like, you know, maybe the one trench for the season, the one scarf, the one leather good. Is that the opportunity? I think so. And I think also, again, going back to like Chanel at some point is going to have to explain why their classic bag was$5 ,000 in 2014 is$10 ,000 today.

25:33They can't, I mean, whatever, that's an amazing business and they just are gangbusters in terms of being sector leaders. But again, like I said before, the check is going to come due. Consumers are going to start to say, well, why am I paying this again? And I think if luxury and others can learn anything from the quintess of the world is that there are benefits to being more explicit about the value they give to customers. Luxury labels and the heretic ones more than anyone else, like the Chanel's and the Hermes's of the world, they have brand recognition and cachet out the wazoo. But But sometimes consumers need to be reminded why they care about your brand in the first place.

26:11And it doesn't hurt to give them that reminder every now and again. And I do think that focusing on those hero products and the newness and the excitement of those hero products and the fact that you're not going to get this anywhere else, even if you try, could be a way in. But it's all very amorphous. And the brands have to decide for themselves how they're going to continue to remind customers why you love them in the first place. I 100 % think that luxury brands have lost a subset of customers to companies like Quince. And as proof, I'll offer up my friend who actually inspired me to buy those sheets on Quince.

26:45She is absolutely somebody who would have been buying like a bag or some item, you know, once a quarter, you know, a couple times a year from a Dior or a Chanel. And that is absolutely not something she would do if those bags are costing$10 ,000 instead of$3 ,000 or$5 ,000. But Quince, you know, scratches that itch. You know, the product feels good. It looks good. And if you're not like a true stand for these brands, it's a perfectly viable alternative. Will these brands get those customers back? I think if Louis Vuitton and other brands that have raised prices on even their entry-level items reintroduce products that can reach those customers, most people will come running right back.

27:26I think nobody's out there saying, I prefer my brandless item to the branded one if the gap in price is reasonable enough. Malik, what's your verdict? Quince, Italic, you said they're doing gangbuster numbers. Are they here to stay, if you had to call it? Well, I think that all depends on if they can become differentiated down the line. At some point in time, with middle-class shoppers, when the economy gets better, they are going to go back to the luxury companies. You know, whether it's because, you know, the economic environment is better or because, as Brian was saying, the luxury companies are like maybe have more entry level goods that are not insanely priced.

28:04So I think that brands like Quince and Italic and Italic is already thinking about this down the line are going to have to think about, like, what is our differentiator beyond offering good prices? What is our storytelling? What are our products that are unique to us? Rather than saying, you know, our cashmere sweaters are cheaper than the Dom and then the Dom CEO doing a round of interviews saying that's crap. Something is fishy. And I think just kind of in all like brands just across the spectrum will have to be more nimble and open to adjusting how they communicate their value to customers, whether that's the luxury brands being more transparent about their pricing, whether that's the dupe brand saying, hey, we have a story to tell beyond being a ripoff.

28:49I think there's room for everyone, but each brand, whether it's a luxury label or a dupe startup will have to heed to my favorite overused word, differentiation. So tell consumers, you know, why you're worth the money, whatever the price point and why you do what you do in a way that others can't duplicate for lack of a better term. But yeah, that's what I predict on that front. Differentiation as the word of the day. As the word of the year, as the word of millennia. Love that. I think that's a nice place to end it, Malik. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. This is like my favorite place to be.

29:23And I look forward to many, many more with you all. Thank you. Please be sure to check out Malik's article, What Luxury Dupe Brands Get Right About Shoppers, as well as Joan Kennedy's article, Is Dupe Culture Out of Control? at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies, mixed and mastered by Eric Bria. I'm Brian Baskin. And I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.