How Fashion Learned to Love The Real Housewives

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. And I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. From bold reality TV moments to viral memes and unforgettable wardrobe statements, it's hard to ignore the impact of The Real Housewives on popular culture. Yet, in the nearly two decades since the first franchise aired and before Bethany Frankel, Lisa Vanderpump, and Leni Leakes became household names, it's been equally difficult to ignore that the fashion industry has been tardy for the party.

0:43But that's starting to change. What was once dismissed as too controversial or lowbrow is slowly earning approval from a growing number of fashion labels and even, dare I say it, the hard-to-please luxury crowd. Joining us to discuss this transformation is BOF Senior News and Features Editor, Diana Pearl. Hi, Diana, and welcome to the Debrief Podcast. Hi, guys. Excited to be here. I know you are. I know this is your favorite topic. Yes, especially to discuss this topic. Diana has been pitching this story for how long have you worked here? Four years. But I will say I feel like it's probably been the last like six-ish months.

1:19Okay. Yeah. If you say so. Now to back up, I think it's probably the case that you either know everything about The Housewives or you saw the title of this episode and listened to Sheena's intro and said, who is Lisa Vanderpump again? So for those elite listeners who do not know anything about these people, set the stage here. Who are The Housewives? So The Real Housewives is a reality TV franchise on Bravo in the US. I know it is on other networks in other countries that basically the concept and the premise is like a peek into the lives of wealthy women in these sort of elite or exclusive areas.

1:58So it started with Orange County almost 20 years ago in 2006, and then expanded to New York, eventually Beverly Hills, Atlanta. We've seen more recently Salt Lake City and Potomac. So it really like taps into a, the like local culture of that area. Like in Salt Lake, there's a lot of talk about Mormonism and how that impacts their lives. In Beverly Hills, you have people like Lisa Rinna who were, or Denise Richards, who were actresses. You know, it really like reflects the local culture of the city and really just gives a peek into the lives of these women who are extremely compelling to watch.

2:33It's so funny because you described all these things like really cool cities and elite women with like social circles. It makes sense to me that fashion would love this. It sounds like a lot of fashion themes, but however, that's not the case. What is fashion's relationship with reality TV as you see it? I think fashion has long had like a bit of a complicated relationship with reality TV, you know, when it was first coming on the scene in like the 2000s. And I feel like at that point, it felt very sort of experimental. And there definitely was a feeling that it was lowbrow. And especially with the case of The Real Housewives, these women weren't seen as necessarily like luxury, upper crust, you know, aspirational, I think, to people in the industry.

3:20However, to people at home, these women have always been aspirational. You know, if you're a person in middle America, looking at a woman who lives in a mansion in Orange County or Beverly Hills is extremely aspirational. So I think that it's been complicated, but it's changed over time because reality TV has just become so much more part of the culture. It's not this fringe thing that it was in the 2000s. It's very much now like a tested medium and one that's just continued to become more and more popular. And what was the housewives role in that shift? Because I think you're right. It was seen as very tawdry, I think, by a lot of the same people who were dictating how things went in the fashion world.

3:56And there's been a total, maybe not a total 180, but we'll call it a 130, you know, almost total turnaround here. I think that a big thing that changed things was the Kardashians, because as we all know, the Kardashians for a long time were not embraced by the fashion industry. And then in the 2010s, that started to change. And I think that really opened the door to like, okay, there is potential in reality TV. People feel connected to these people. And I think that also people started like watching the shows themselves. And a lot of the interviews I did for this story, people said, you know, I would go to a show and like a housewife would say, I would go to a fashion show and people would tell me how much they loved the show.

4:37So even if people weren't like embracing it publicly, they definitely were watching it and enjoying it at home. And I think that that guilty pleasure has just sort of like come out of the shadows a little bit. What about the fashion of the Housewives? How would you describe it? I'm sure it varies from city to city. New York is a more fashion forward cast and so is Beverly Hills. But generally, how is their fashion sense perceived? I think that fashion has become such a bigger part of the show. And that's really what sparked this idea in the first place, because I'm not a long, long time Housewives fan.

5:09I've been into it maybe for the last three-ish years. So I binged it. And watching it back to back, you really see the shift between in the early 2010s, maybe they have a Chanel bag or a pair of Chanel earrings, but they're not wearing head-to-toe designers. Fashion doesn't play as big of a role in the plots of the show. The reunion looks are very simple. And now it plays a huge role. They're all decked out in designer goods. It's designers play a role in the show of like people talk about clothes. There's plot points around, you know, this dress costs this much money or did she buy that diamond necklace?

5:42It's just become a character in the show in and of itself. And people are more into the housewives clothes now. There's Instagram accounts that follow everything they wear. They post their own clothes on their Instagrams. The reunion looks, it's like a huge thing now, the reveal of what they wear and they wear these gorgeous gowns. It's just become much more a part of the fabric of the show. It was always like present, but now it's, you know, you can't ignore it. And a lot of these women have gotten into fashion. And, you know, I think about Tamara Judge on OC. She's a longtime housewife. I think she's like the longest running housewife.

6:15She was wearing Mugler in a confessional and talking about her Mugler outfit. And I think about, you know, 10 years ago, I don't think she knew what Mugler was. You know, it just wasn't a part of the culture of the show in the same way. That's so interesting because I, so my experience with Housewives, and I'd love to hear you two kind of how you've engaged with the show, but I watched a few of the original seasons back in the late 2000s. And then I kind of fell off. And the shows like that I have watched more recently were things like Selling Sunset, where I did notice that head to toe, very loud, very, I am wearing these designers look at me looks that I did not remember from the Housewives.

6:52And it's interesting that they've adopted that as well. and really said, you know, we're going to be brand ambassadors for these labels, whether they like it or not. Definitely. Definitely. It's interesting because there was a point in your story, Diana, about whether or not these women pay for the clothes or they're given to them to like wear on the show, which is also a testament to how influential a person is or isn't as the fashion industry sees it. How has that shifted? Like, are they buying the clothes or designers actually willing to loan or give them samples so that they can be almost advertisements?

7:23I think that that is also something that has really like changed the game on Housewives is that they've cast more of these women who are, you know, like fashion people in their personal lives. You know, you look at someone like Sutton Strack, who goes to couture shows and regularly wears couture or Bronwyn Newport, who is a recent addition to The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. She's a private client at Dolce & Gabbana and Moschino. They just have more of these fashion bigwigs, so to speak, and these top clients that, as we all know, are extremely important for luxury brands. Or Jenna Lyons, I mean, is the big example, right?

8:00I mean, that's like a literal fashion-first person who's now a housewife instead of the reverse. The New York cast, generally, they rebooted the New York cast two or three years ago. And that really is like a fashion-focused franchise now. They had Rebecca Minkoff on this past season. even Jessel Tank she was a publicist for Carla Otto and Michael Kors. Sida Silva is a influencer who has worked with a lot of top luxury brands so I feel like that really gave the show a little more fashion cred so to speak and it's sort of just yeah I feel like those seeds were planted maybe in the late 2010s and have really just taken off post-COVID but yeah you cannot understate the New York cast I feel like they've really like entered into the industry and sort of open that door for all the other casts?

8:46It also feels like the cast has gotten a little younger. To Brian's question earlier about like, how did we engage with the Housewives? I started watching, I watched the Housewives in every city I lived in. So when I was in Atlanta, I watched the Atlanta franchise and I came to New York and I watched the New York Housewives. They were closer to DC. So I watched the Potomac Housewives. It feels like some of the cast seems to have gotten younger. I wonder what role that plays in making them more of a fashion inspo. We know fashion as an industry is more youth obsessed. Have you seen that? You know, I think it's a mix.

9:16There are cast members that are a little bit older, or you're not, you know, old, but you know, 50s or 60s. There are cast members who are maybe in their 30s. I think it's a mix. I honestly don't think that there's necessarily like a huge connection between the age of the cast members and the ones brands are gravitating towards. I think brands are interested in the people who have like a loyal fan base, who have a very distinct personality that people love. I also think they're interested in people who feel like a natural fit for them. So an example is Lisa Barlow from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

9:48A big part of her like personal brand is she loves luxury. She's always wearing luxury brands. There was a plot line this past season about her like throwing a fit about having to fly coach home from a cast trip. Oh my God, the horror. Yeah, you can't imagine. But like a moment like that is quintessential Housewives and she did a partnership with Kerastase, the haircare brand, which is trying to position itself more in the US as a luxury label. So they were like, okay, this is perfect. She had mentioned the brand organically on the show. So there was already that organic connection. And then she also loves luxury.

10:21So it kind of goes hand in hand with what they're trying to portray. And then in terms of the audience for this, I guess if, if, if, you know, a brand wants to partner with the housewives, who are they trying to reach? I mean, something I think is interesting is that the demographics for like the fan base of the Housewives, I think, are a lot of the same demographics of people who are very into fashion. Women and gay men definitely make up the majority of the Housewives fan base. And I think also for fashion, too. I mean, you have a very engaged fan, somebody who's super passionate about like the fans of the show are so passionate.

10:57Bravo hosts a Bravo con. It's like once a year or sometimes every other year. And people will just line up. They want to meet these women. They want to see them talk. They buy the things they wear on the show. There's just like such a deep, passionate fan base there. And I think if you want to connect with consumers, you have to meet them where they are. And people of all stripes like reality TV. You know, it's not something that is necessarily only, you know, a lowbrow sort of fans, quote unquote, would be into. Lots of smart people watch reality TV. Lots of luxury customers watch reality TV.

11:33So I think that there's more of an acceptance of like, okay, we need to be where the people are. But for all their success, they haven't quite fully cracked luxury, right? There's a slow adoption of the luxury market to the housewives. What's the luxury industry's hang up? What do you think their big hang up is now? I mean, I think A, the Real Housewives is very American show. A lot of the luxury industry is in Europe. It's less of a thing there. So I think that that's part of it. I also think that there is still a bit of that hesitation around the stigma that's connected to reality TV. You know, a lot of people look at it as lesser than scripted or, you know, it's a guilty pleasure or it's lowbrow.

12:14You know, I always say I feel like reality TV makes me smarter in a lot of ways because it's like you're watching, you're like observing human dynamics in a really interesting way. And I'm not someone who's like a longtime reality TV fan, but I'm just, you learn so much about the way people behave. I would say you cannot write characters that are as engaging and compelling and dynamic as real people. So yeah, I think that there's just sort of that, like maybe a little bit not understanding it. And then also just a little bit of a hesitation on the stigma. But I think that generally, it's good to like embrace the things your audience embraces.

12:47And when we've seen brands embrace the housewives, I think the fans reward them for that. But there's a way to do it. You know, I spoke with Brett Heyman, who's the founder of Edie Parker, which is like a bag brand in New York. And they had Countess Luann, who is a Real Housewife of New York or former Real Housewife of New York, perform at their New York Fashion Week party. And it was a huge hit. They got amazing press, like some of the most highly engaged social media posts. And she said, you know, you really need to lean into the fun of it. You know, maybe you're not going to cast a housewife in your campaign that's going to go on every billboard, but you can do a fun social media campaign.

13:21You can lean into there's there's a campiness to the housewives. And I think when brands can do that, it's like the sky's the limit. That really gets to it. The camp factor. I think that's what's holding back housewives from just literally being everywhere. Like I think the Kardashians definitely had a lot of that and they sort of outgrew it. Or I guess that's that's a whole other podcast, probably. I mean, there's a reason like the luxury brands you mentioned in your story, it's Dolce & Gabbana, it's Moschino. In New York Fashion Week, it's Christian Siriano's show that has the most housewives.

13:52It's, I don't want to say the brands you expect, but it is kind of the brands you expect. And I don't even mean that in a pejorative way. It's just, they haven't quite transcended as famous as they are. Definitely. Probably also the fights. A few of those, like, I don't know if Dior wants someone flipping a table in one of their looks. I think that's a huge factor. That happened in my hometown of Cedar Grove, New Jersey. Just shouting that out there. It's a good restaurant, Lunello's. Check it out. Definitely. They're having a moment right now, maybe like a breakthrough moment. What do you think needs to happen next for the housewives to maintain this momentum if they want to?

14:27Like, what do they need to do next? Or is it just a matter of slow and steady in the same direction? Yeah, I mean, I think that reality TV is only going to become more and more a part of our entertainment landscape. I mean, there's like the logistical and practical reasons. It's much easier and less expensive to produce than a scripted show. I think that it has just broken into culture and mainstream culture in a different way. So I really think it is just going to be a slow and steady increase. It's not a fringe thing anymore. But I think that people are waking up to it. Like they're really just realizing.

15:00And I think that's something that's so special about the housewives is that they have that personal connection that a consumer might have with an influencer because people watch their lives. They see them like I think about some of the things I've watched these women go through divorces, custody battles, you know, loss of a parent. Like you really feel like you're along for the ride with these women. But they also have the visibility and the profile of a traditional celebrity. You know, they're on TV. They have millions of followers on Instagram. They're very popular. So whereas an influencer might be a little bit more of a smaller demographic.

15:31And it's this kind of beautiful like midway point. So I think that people will keep on waking up to that and keep on realizing, oh, wait, this is a lever we can tap. You know, we see fashion brands all the time trying to engage with culture, whether it's sports or the white lotus. This is just another cultural lever that they can pull.

15:52We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.

15:58so let's play a game why don't each of us pick our favorite housewife and then pair them up with a luxury brand that they could do a great partnership with and i can go first i'm going to pick as my favorite housewife uba hassan she's with the new york cast uba was like a model uh for she was like the face of macy's for a few years by the way and then she worked with like mark jacobs and did some big European shows. So she's my favorite housewife because it's newer. It's more relatable to me. She's in New York. She's ambitious. She has a career. She's not uber wealthy, but she's wealthy enough.

16:33And I would pair her up with Dior because it's like feminine, elegant, timeless. It's French luxury powerhouse. I think Uber might speak French and it's high fashion, Parisian chic. I love that. Can I give two? I have two thoughts. I don't know, Diana. Okay. There's been the rules. So my favorite housewife of all time is Carol Radziwill. She's not on the show anymore, but she was on New York for five seasons. And she is just like the quintessential downtown Manhattan cool girl. She's got great style. She's super smart. She's absolutely the coolest. I would pair her with Kate. I feel like that's the quintessential downtown New York cool girl brand.

17:13So she would fit with them perfectly. And then I would do Kyle Richards from Beverly Hills. She's the original Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, the only original one still standing on that franchise. And she is very known for her love of Hermes. She's always carrying a Birkin. I think that would be a fun partnership. She's the quintessential Hermes housewife. Those are really good answers. And I'm at a disadvantage here because I haven't watched the show in 20 years. But, I mean, Countess Luann seems hard to top in terms of housewives. I mean, she'll always be a Real Housewife of New York in my heart, I guess.

17:45And I think rather than naming a specific brand or housewife, I'm going to cheat a bit and say that we're always writing about how designers like Jonathan Anderson and Temna, you know, they're these cultural magpies and they collect all these references and put them into their fashion. And it's a mix of high and low. And I think we're going to see that luxury breakthrough when one of maybe not those designers, but someone like that, they're going to be a Housewives fan and they're going to pluck it along with the fancy artists and the and the weird rich European sport and all that and combine all that.

18:17And they're going to throw it in the blender with the rest. And we're going to see, you know, Lisa Rinna walking a runway, you know, somewhere sometime. Like, I just I'm sure that's going to happen. That's good. I could see Sergio Hudson doing that. He's had a few Housewives at his shows, too. I mean, he's not as big of a brand, but he's definitely dabbling and probably will cast one in a show or something. Yeah. And I think something also that, you know, I've said, but like really to be underscored is that the housewives move product. Like people are invested in them and they look to them for ideas on what to wear, what to buy.

18:49There was a scene a few seasons ago in Beverly Hills where this one woman, Sutton, says to another, she says something about to another housewife, you know, your ugly leather pants. and she was calling the pants ugly on screen and they still sold out the next day. Like they can just move product because I think for a lot of people, these women are extremely aspirational. And that's a lot of what, you know, fashion is built on as well. I mean, to be really cliche, they're kind of the original influencers, right? I mean, it does sound very similar to how we talk about influencers on Instagram or TikTok, but and they've had the staying power too.

19:24I don't know why if you've been selling out ugly pants for 20 years, you can't get a Dior deal. But, you know, maybe that's for next time. Yeah, yeah, they definitely have staying power. And, you know, something I think is interesting is that NBCUniversal, Bravo's parent company, is spinning off almost all of their cable networks. And Bravo is the one that they're holding on to. So I think that really speaks to investment in the channel and just the Bravo platform. It's really like staging events. It's become this huge world, you know, and other Bravo celebrities are benefiting, too. It's not just The Real Housewives.

19:55Paige DeSorbo from Summer House was at the CFDA Awards last fall. It's a universe and there's so much power in tapping that. Also, when you get like a green light from Rihanna, who is a super fan, I think that is like your that is the ultimate sign that you are going to be embraced by fashion. You probably have some sticking power. Yeah. A lot of the housewives I talked to said that Rihanna's DMed them. And, you know, there's very high profile fans. Jon Hamm, Jennifer Lawrence. These are fashion people. You think one of them could make an intro. Jennifer Lawrence could pick up the phone. And yeah, I know she's listening.

20:30Exactly. Exactly. Along with Rihanna. On that note, I think this is a nice spot to end it. This was such a fun conversation. I felt indulged today, Diana. Thank you so much. Thank you both. So great to be here. Please be sure to check out Diana's article, How Fashion Learned to Love the Real Housewives at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. I'm Brian Baskin. And I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode.

21:07Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.