Ib Kamara: ‘Europe Is Not the Centre of Everything. Where You Come From Matters.’

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of The Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, February 13th. From a childhood in Sierra Leone to navigating London as a teenage immigrant, Ibrahim Kamar's cross-cultural journey has greatly shaped his creative identity. In this conversation recorded in Abu Dhabi during the launch of T magazine Mina, he recounts hiding his artistic ambitions while studying science, breaking through with the Beyonce commission in his early 20s, redefining Dazed as a global publication and ultimately stepping into the role of art and image director at Off-White after the death of Virgil Abloh.

0:48Our conversation spans authorship, responsibility, design versus styling, and why young creatives today must reject Eurocentric hierarchies and build with their peers. Here's Ibrahim Kamara on the BOF podcast.

1:07I'm delighted to be here with Mr. Ib Kamara. Thank you. Thank you. We've actually been wanting to do a chat like this for a while, and we never managed to align it in London. But somehow... We're here. We made it happen in Abu Dhabi. So why don't we start by going way back? You and I both have African heritage. Yeah. My family's from Kenya and Tanzania. Your family is from Sierra Leone. tell us about Sierra Leone. I know you moved to London at some stage, but what was that journey and experience like from Sierra Leone to the UK? I always say I had one of the best childhood growing up because I was out in the street till 11 p.m.

1:55when I were with my friends and Sierra Leone is beautiful. Sierra Leone have had war over the years, so it's a beautiful island with so much talent and so much possibility, but the world doesn't get to see that. So I feel like I'm one of the luckiest people to come out of one of the most poorest places in the world, but also with so much potential. And moving to London, of course, was a culture shock. You know, I come from an environment where authority is a thing and you don't question anything and you find yourself somehow. But then in London, I'm thrown into a school where... How old were you when you arrived in London?

2:31I was 15 going to 16. So I was pretty much in my early teenage years where I'm finding myself. And all of a sudden, I have to abandon everything that I know and keep up with all the young people and be more outspoken. And then you're shy because you're raised in an environment where you're not sure to not speak. So London was definitely a culture shock, but also the best shock that could have ever happened to me. I think I needed that shock and that tension to be Ibrahim right now. I think. So take us back to that 16 year old. Once he kind of settled or kind of found his his way in London, what was 16 year old Ibrahim Kamara dreaming about?

3:15What did he want to do with his life? I was dreaming of not going to study medicine because that's what my parent wanted. So I was finding every way to get out of it. But I ended up studying science at 16 and chemistry stream biology, everything. But I always bought fashion illustrations. I was on - Illustrations. Illustrations, yeah. It was the early, I think eBay had just started or something. It was the early years of eBay, I think, or buying stuff online. I'll buy a fashion book. I will watch America's Next Top Model. If that was even a thing, I will watch Ugly Betty. I will research on stylists.

3:54I will see Barry Kamen's work. I will see Simon Foxton's work. and I was interning at the Youth Culture magazine because outside of my house, I could be whatever I wanted to be in London, but at home I couldn't. I had to put up this medical brain. I had to just be so like... Dr. Kamara. Dr. Kamara. Not far off, actually. I do have a doctorate now, but... You do. But I think, you know, I had to hide to be able to be autistic outside and find my people. Yeah. And what was it about fashion that was so interesting to you? I mean, you already mentioned styling. How did you, there's so many different roles in our industry, right?

4:41Yeah. People sometimes think it's just about designers, right? Yeah. Or models, but there's hundreds of roles. Why styling? I thought it was the easiest thing for me to do than going into other routes. But also I loved images and I was fascinated by how people put things together. And the people I worked with were all artists. So I feel like I could develop my style quicker than going into all the forms that I was a little bit afraid of in the beginning of my career. So styling and image making. But also when I was young in Sierra Leone, I used to see a lot of magazines come from Europe. They just dumped them there.

5:24So naturally I was used to, I understood images quicker than design. Because there was no sort of a design school or artistic design language. You know, you take what you're given. So yeah, that felt like the most natural thing to start with. what was the first opportunity you had to exercise that muscle tell us that story and how it felt you mean the first time I ever styled the story I think I was in college I had quit science and so you're studying medicine I'm studying medicine so I quit you quit I quit at 19 and then I was internet for a youth culture magazine called Life Magazine which have produced a lot of the young London editors come from Life Magazine.

6:18So it was a youth culture magazine for poorer kids from poorer backgrounds and then all of a sudden I stepped into a styling thing and then I called a couple of my friends who weren't even doing anything fashion and then I started to style them. They'll come to my house, I'll take photos of them and style them. And that was my very first move into trying something that I was hiding my whole life to do. And it was liberating. And tell us about how that felt. It was liberating. I felt like I could do this forever. I mean, then I started buying, spending all my money on vintage pieces. And not like designer, just like normal.

7:01or just buying stuff and counting them up and really playing with styling, but just making as I'm playing with styling. Because when you're 19, you don't have access to Givenchy or all the PR clothes. No one gives them to you. So you have to imagine your own set of images and styling. But it was limitless of what I could create. So it was fun. Do you have a moment where you feel like you had your big break? like what was that moment when you went from innovating with pieces from like vintage markets on your friends like what was the moment where you you know someone else saw your talent your potential and recognized that in you i think the very first time i mean i was i was 23 24 the very first time I did my university project and and I showed that at Somerset house but after that I've never really worked on a bigger project and then Beyonce's team called to get me on to LA so I never thought anyone will wait wait wait say that again so Beyonce's team Your team called you?

8:18Called me to head to LA. Like they just found your phone number. No, through people, through friends. Hey. On the internet. Okay. So someone from her team called me, but I was 24, 25. I have quit my retail job, no job. I'm like, I'm at home styling, but I'm putting on my work. And then all of a sudden I'm on a plane to LA to do a video for her. But I took all my friends. And that was one of the most incredible time of my life. I took four of my friends who were not stylists but they had great minds and great vision and so we all came to LA to style B and it was I was nervous as hell I was completely out of my debt but I remember my people were there to give me the courage to do it and it was one of the most fulfilling exercise at a very young age to what I've dreamt of doing okay so what did you put her I put her in custom stuff from my friend's collection.

9:17So I put her in a lot of St. Martin pieces, like Edward. There was some Wills Bonner there. Edward Crutchley. Edward, no, Edwin. Edwin was a year below me. Okay. And Jawara, Alan, Feathern. So these were all my friends at the time. So we just made custom stuff. And I took it to her and it was a fun project. But that was a big break for me. I think. Amazing. Thanks. And then from there, it's been, I mean, as an outside observer, who's seen, I mean, your images have this instantly recognizable quality to them. Thank you. There's so much power in them, but they're also very approachable and understandable even to people you know sometimes fashion imagery is in america they have this term called high falutin which means it's kind of over intellectualized yeah your images are at the same time high fashion but they're so understandable to everybody thank you why why do you think that is i think it's my upbringing i i think i didn't come from elitism so i think there's a i love humans i love real i love real stories my parents worked real jobs you know i worked real jobs and i have people in my life that have been friends for 20 years that are still the same they do everything real out of my universe and i and i'm always consistently inspired by them i'm inspired by simplicity even if you're trying to send a global message but i also grew up watching the news i i understood politics at a very young age because it was installed in me to You know, so I think that helped me navigate how I tell stories.

11:07And as a purpose of my time of day is to really tell the stories because of my background. And I grew up watching CNN and BBC and those anchors were my heroes. So just growing up, I loved this. I adored people that told information much more beyond anything else. So all of that plays a role in my universe. Well, it's, you know, the imagery, as I said, it's so striking. So say you're outside the fashion context and you need to explain to a lay person what you do. You're at a dinner and there's no fashion people there. Nobody knows Dazed or Givenchy or any of that. And you have to sit and they're like, well, what do you do?

11:53How do you describe it now? I would say I'm kind of like an expressionist, but a creative expressionist. I don't think I am limited to a medium. As long as I respect it, I learn the craft and I take my time and develop my own language. I think eventually you express yourself truly. And with anything, it takes time. It takes time to truly express yourself. So I would say I'm an expressionist. just give me a medium and give me a couple of years I feel like I will master it and I'll be fine to do it yeah okay well let's talk about the two most kind of recent media that you've been immersed in I mean you mentioned dazed very briefly you know dazed has this in London especially I think has this history of being a youth culture bible right and you came into dazed at a time when there was a wider racial reckoning going on in the world and in fashion.

12:57I mean, when you took on that role, you know, to head up Dazed, what were you trying to bring to Dazed that was missing? I think for a long time, Dazed was fab because the internet, before 2016, the internet was not so, Instagram was not so global to me anyway. I was, I mean, I got on Instagram at the age of maybe 21, 22. But I think when I took days over, the whole world communicated with each other. Kids from Nairobi to South Africa, to London, to West Africa, China, Middle East, all are talking. Everyone is doing something on the same platform. So it didn't make sense that days did not reflect that.

13:41It was so London centric. It was so London bias and the whole world was cut off. And I think being an immigrant in London, I do feel pushed out sometimes by publications growing up because it did not represent me at all or my perspective. So I think taking on days, I realized London is so diverse and we all come from the most incredible places in the world and it will make sense for us to reflect that. And we're at an age where the kids are all talking online. Everyone is sharing and collaborating. So I set out to make a magazine that was global, has a sense of culture, has empathy, take out, you know, brave enough to do stories that could potentially get me fired a couple of times.

14:24But I did not see why I shouldn't talk about it. It's a reflection of where I come from. You know, my parents are outspoken. My parents are involved in injustice and making sure, you know, it's a fair world. So I felt my time of days had to reflect a lot of my background. And my team reflected that as well. It was a diverse rainbow of teams, but I had the best time making it. For people who don't know what it takes to put together a magazine, can you just walk us through quickly just the process of coming up with a concept for an issue and how it all comes together and choosing someone to be on the cover or multiple people to be on the cover.

15:11How did that process work for you? Where did the ideas begin? Honestly, the ideas will sometimes just sprung from text message. Because I have a group chat with all my friends that were working on the magazine. So, I mean, we'd send a lot of stuff happening globally. And then it could come from a four-year-old kid I was looking at on Apple TV that's a photographer in Vietnam. and all of a sudden now I'm thinking I remember that issue and I'm thinking okay maybe now we need to there must be other people like this kid so let's go find them around the world and then we start debating we start sharing ideas but you know like magazines you have to work with a budget so going blowing my whole money in one cover does not make sense but we find ways and there's a lot of debate and I'm so open with my team I like when there's a tension as I am being pushed by people, I'm being asked questions and I feel like the issue becomes stronger.

16:09There's a lot of debate, a lot of late night conversations, a lot of like, no, yes, not sure, let's do it, let's do it. But at the end, it's the best feeling to put a magazine with a group of people that you're all aligned mentally and you all have a goal to sort of change the world in your own little way. So I think everything we did at Days was a purpose to communicate something to the user or to the kid that's picking up the magazine. So that's the way I can describe it. Shooting everywhere, deadlines, print, missing deadlines, not sure, cancelling stuff. I mean, I'm very tough on the covers when it comes to days.

16:46I dropped so many things people would kill me for, but I had to be tough as an editor to be like, I had to edit myself. After two years and days, I had to like, I was doing less covers. It was like, five is enough, four is enough, nine, no, we don't need so much to communicate one idea. So at some point in this journey, you met Virgil Abloh. Yes. Tell us a little bit about how that relationship formed. Honestly, Virgil and I were in the same universe for a long time, but we did not sort of interact. But we just liked each other's work and we compliment each other here and there. and I think I was somewhere doing something one day and he just DM'd me, hey, you want to come style Vuitton?

17:34I was like, okay. Cash. I was like, okay. Then the next day I was on a train to Paris and I styled the collection during lockdown, a couple of shows during lockdown. But he was the kindest, sweetest, attentive, present, saw everybody and he just had this very childlike energy of anything is possible. and I carry that energy with me of anything is possible if you really want it if you really dedicate to it so I mean that's how I met him on the internet and did you continue styling all the shows after that was that did that seed the beginning of a long absolutely it's that the the longer collaboration with him and pretty much everything was in fashion I was involved in I was like consulting and and researching and bringing him ideas what do you think of this you know And he was the master of creating this universe, and we all contribute the best we could to it.

18:32We gave everything because he created a whole visionary concept that we all felt so freely to contribute into. And there was no right or wrong. There was always a new thing coming out of what we're making. And that was a learning for me. It's so interesting because I think so many of us had these interactions with Virgil that were very special. Yeah. It wasn't until he died that I realized how many people had that vibe with him. There was something about him that was so welcoming, and he seemed to be available at any time of day on WhatsApp, and he'd reply right away. When he passed away and Off-White approached you, not to fill his shoes, because no one can fill his shoes, but to kind of continue his legacy and keep the brand alive.

19:30How did that feel? It was not the easiest decision for me to make because no one can really fill someone else's shoes. There's only one Virgil, and that was beautiful, and that was magnificent. And it was a very scary decision for me to make because for a long time, I was just happy to not. so my work was forward and then I get to just hide in the back and like not be seen. You were never the front person. No, I've never, I've always shy away from it. Even this is uncomfortable a little bit, right? With you it's fine because I feel, I feel safe. But you know, I've always sort of like not, I like my work to talk, do the talking and I can have the craziest life outside of it.

20:17And I think when Virgil, when, when this job, when I was asked to do this, I had to think of a lot of stuff socially as well, you know, what it means for me. Also stepping into design, I respect design so much. And whilst I helped shape a lot of people's perspective, I still need to find mine. You know, making clothes is very personal. And then making clothes in the spotlight is even more difficult when you have to... The way Virgil was, you know, the way people came for Virgil, you know, I was putting myself in the light for the very first time. So I had to take all those decisions, but I thought to myself, I also have nothing to lose.

20:55You know, I feel like I've worked with so many people and I've got so much experience and I've, and it was just time for me to find my own voice, find my own voice within my own universe. And, and yeah, it was a lot of debate within me. And honestly, the day they announced it, I was probably shaking in my room thinking, what have I done? Like, it was all so simple. It was going good. I didn't need to, but I don't think you can live life like that. I think you have to take a chance. You have to try and... And sometimes doing the things that make you uncomfortable, those are the moments when you really stretch yourself and understand your real, the breadth of your talent, right?

21:38If you stick to doing what feels easy or comes easy, then you'll never know what else you can do. Absolutely. And I was working into a brand that had a very strong identity already. So there's so many codes. But within all, I think finding yourself is the key and finding your own perspective and standing behind what you create. So yeah, those were all things. What's the biggest difference between being a stylist and being a designer? I think with design, you can't cheat. with styling you can't cheat I think I think design is yeah no clamps I think design is like if it's good it's good we all know when it's not I guess taste is like subjective but I think with design you can't hide it's out into the world I think with styling you can cheat in a picture you can cheat in the style and you can tweak things but design is respect you know it's a craft you know a craft is so raw that it's real and that's what I've learned the ownership of the brand recently changed yes and obviously you know when a founder is no longer present in a brand it creates all sorts of questions like how are you coping with the shifts that are happening it's a really challenging moment in the industry at right now yeah there's so many different things that we're all contending with and you specifically at this brand?

23:12Like, how's that going? Honestly, I've been very lucky to have an incredible CEO. I am so blessed to have somebody that understands the brand and understands my perspective as well. And it's encouraging me to own it even more and shape my perspective. So I think with all the chaos in the industry and the business side of it, and I think Ofwai still have a chance to propel a brand beyond its honor still have to move into a newer perspective and I think I think I'm owning my own voice at Off-White I am making a stamp to my own perspective but within the universe that was created so in terms of just help and team I've been very lucky to have a you know like a strong team and a CEO behind you makes creativity flourish and and gives you the peaceful mind to create and give all you can.

24:07So I've been very lucky so far over the past two years of also just finding my actual self and what I love, what I don't like. And people around me to facilitate that, to also push me, to interrogate me. And I'm learning in the process and spend the most incredible learning experience on a job I've ever taken. take home. No regrets, right? No regrets. I would do it all over again. And I, to get even more, learn more and, and build my craft more and, and, and find my voice even deeper. Yeah. Last question. Say there's a 16 year old, Ibrahim, somewhere, maybe they're in Johannesburg, or they're in Jakarta or they're in Jaipur.

24:59Yeah. What advice do you have to a young creative person who wants to break into fashion now at such a moment of disruption? Technological disruption, economic disruption, political disruption, societal disruption, like everything seems to be shifting at the moment. I would say, I think from the global South, I would say Europe is not so much the center of everything, of culture. I think it's also to acknowledge that to yourself, that where you come from matter, and taste is not subjective to one part of the world. It's global taste. And I think being consistent. If you like this, I think for my story, I wanted this.

25:44I did not stop. I've got back problems because of styling and being in fashion. I was hungry for this. and I love when I meet young people they're so hungry because I know you're going to make it because you actually really want it you are not here because of gimmick you know and and so I think if you really want it is consistency work with your friends there's nothing wrong with working people your age and creating your own perspective your own language the greats work with with their with their counterpart you know they were all the same generation and if the time comes you have to work with the older generation so be it that's good for you but I think create with your people, bring your people up because there's nothing more beautiful when you're at a table and you've known this people for 20 years and 30 years or 15 years and you're all doing what you set up to do.

26:32So I think also be on the internet, collaborate with people everywhere in the world and be kind as well. Be nice a little bit if you can, please. We don't need more monsters in the industry. That's what I would say. That's beautiful advice. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you too. Thank you. This is sweet. That was very sweet. Short and sweet. I wish you all the success. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks for your time. Thank you. And thanks to everyone for coming. Thank you.

27:09Merci beaucoup. The BOF podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. Thank you.