Inside Dries Van Noten’s Venice Manifesto

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of The Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, May 1st. For four decades, Dries Van Noten defined a singular path in global fashion, with a universe rooted in intellectual rigor, exquisite craftsmanship, and independence. When he stepped back from his namesake brand last year, it wasn't a retreat into quiet retirement. Instead, Dries has embarked on a profound transition, moving from the relentless, dictated rhythm of fashion to a new life as a custodian of culture in Venice. Dries has established a new foundation at the Palazzo Pisani Moretta, a space dedicated to the beauty of craftsmanship and the belief that in a world marked by global uncertainty, the act of making something beautiful is the ultimate form of protest.

1:00I think everybody knows that it's ugly times. When we say protest, you protest against something. So I think it's quite clear when we say the only true protest is beauty that people know what we mean. In this special episode of the BOF podcast, our editor-at-large, Tim Blank, speaks to Dries about this remarkable transition to becoming a custodian of beauty. Here are Tim Blanks and Dries van Noten on the BOF podcast.

1:30Dries, feels like it's been a long time. It is, absolutely. So it's quite a while now. And so much has happened. A lot of things. We are now kind of partly Venetian, the majority of our time, actually, because we are very busy here. And how is that? We didn't retire. We didn't stop designing the collections to have an easy life and just relax and doing nothing. So the idea was really to do something else, which I think we succeeded in. So it's something else, but it's again very busy. How has life in Venice changed you? A lot. Of course, fashion is very demanding. And of course, fashion dictates the rhythm.

2:14here uh nobody dictates you with what i'm doing now nobody dictates in fact us what we have to do but of course it's again very busy so it's not not really yeah it's it's a different life it's a different rhythm but still busy and that's what we really wanted to do we wanted to do something else and that's we succeeded in i like what you said to me that you've become a lot more social in Venice. Absolutely. I think, yeah, fashion is, is again, so you have so much things to do constantly and one collection is finished and the next already, you're already in delay with the next one. So in Belgium, we had, of course, we have friends and family and relatives, but here in Venice, it's, it's so easy to meet people and it's so much fun because, okay, you don't have to drive.

3:03You, you can drink a glass very easily with friends and hanging around And Venetians are also very, very social. So they invite you very easily at home just for an aperitivo. And it's really fun. So you don't have to have a designated gondolier at the end of a night out? No, after a night out, a good walk can do miracles. Is it fun having Diane von Furstenberg as a neighbor? It's fun. She's really fun. She presented us also to a lot of people. She really wants to help us also, which is, of course, fantastic. It's a lot of people living here. And Venice is a very layered city. You have a lot of different groups of people.

3:43You have kind of the international people. You have the real Venetians. You have also a lot of youth. So you have a lot of students here, students who continue to hang around in Venice. So it's a very diverse group of people living here in Venice. And that's nice because I would feel, I think, quite scared when it would be only like the international people or all the art people. No, I think you have so many different types of people here, which is really very, very stimulating, I think. Are you surprised? I mean, have you surprised yourself by the fact that you've been able to do this? And is it a third act, would you call it?

4:21It's not a second act. It must be a third act. But it's so different from anything that you've done or known before. Of course, it's different. To say honestly, I'm surprised how easy everything went and how natural everything came to us and how fun it is and how enriching it is, how much we learned already in so little time. I think that for me is really the very pleasant and very surprising part. Because, of course, indeed, it's something else that we are doing now. Now, of course, it's connected still with art, with beauty, with a lot of things which we always were doing. But the moment that we decided to step down, Patrick and I were sitting together and said like, oh, we have to find something else to do.

5:12It's really important for us to stimulate because that was all the reason why we wanted to stop designing collections. We wanted to still try to do something else in our life. Because, OK, I think everybody knows that I'm an addicted gardener. But I said like also to Patrick, oh, don't do that to me that I now the rest of my life have to talk to 70 year old colleague gardeners about pruning and what fertilizer I give to the plants. And for me, that was like, no, no, impossible. We have to do something else. And of course, craftsmanship has given us so much that we said, OK, maybe it's good to try to support it.

5:49And here we are. I think it's very interesting that that huge Antwerp 6 show has opened in Antwerp at MoMU. And it's this interesting circularity in your life that you get to see such a sort of overview of everything you've done up to this point, just as you start the next chapter. And I wondered how it was when you went to the opening of that show, what you felt when you looked at Dries then, when you're in the middle of being Dries now. For me, it was very interesting, also confronting, of course. It's 40 years of career, and it's also really 40 years ago. That says also something about my age.

6:31And for me, it was like really the perfect moment because it was really like wrapping up one section of my life. And here we are with maybe section, as you said, second part or third part in our life. And it was a good thing. I was not nostalgic because otherwise I think otherwise you could see, oh, this is all over and look and it was fantastic. And we were so much younger and so much more handsome and we were daring things. And now it's OK. Like, OK, I'm the age who I am. But still, we have now a new chance, a new life to meet new people, to work again with young people and create something else.

7:13Were you emotional when you saw it all gathered together there like that? I mean, I've only got the book as reference, and it's a very emotional experience, that book, I think. I can't imagine what the show is like. It's emotional, of course, because there you see all the videos and you have the memories. You have, of course, also Marina Yeh, they're very present in the exhibition. so in that way uh it comes really alive and a lot of memories are coming back i'm very happy also that this is now wrapped up i'm happy how it goes now also with the brand so that's that i think julian is doing a very good job so this also gives me comfort and gives me kind of okay now i can concentrate on something else so in a very positive way and that's what what we are doing now.

8:06So to now bring it up to date what did you think the first time you walked into the palazzo? Oh this is far too big far too complicated far too decorated this is everything what we are not looking for that was the first idea and then and then we started to fall in love with with the place with the owner with the then owner because he was kind of a guy of 83 84 years old. Incredible, the love, the passion he had for the building. And then we understood that the Palazzo is really a place where craftsmanship is so visible. It's still all there. It's still the authentic 1730s decoration, which is in place.

8:47So it's unique possibility to combine all that skill and all that knowledge from the past with things from now. You have a Tiepolo ceiling, do you? We have a Tiepolo ceiling, yes. I just can't imagine what that would be, you know, a boy from Belgium who would never dream of having a Tiepolo ceiling in his place. No, and also to say honestly, I still realize it completely what we have here and what responsibility what we have, because I think I really feel that we are custodians now of something which is so special, because it's quite unique that it's still complete intact. It's like a woman, Chiara Pisani, who imagined it and she was extremely wealthy and that's why she could afford really the best, best, best craftsmen of that time.

9:38It's very well documented also. We have really, we know every detail, who made it, how much it costed and everything because there is a huge archive, which is now Musée Corrère, which makes the place even more special. So it's really, it's kind of an exceptional place, which of course gives us a lot of pressure because you have to take care of it. So as I said, we really feel custodians. But of course, on the other hand, we've also to give it a new life because I think a palazzo like this must be used to do, to organize events, to show to people. It's not something that you have to hide. And that's exactly what you want to do.

10:18The grandeur of it, though, is so... I could understand why you felt overwhelmed when you walked in, but at what point did you change your mind and think, oh, we can do something here. We can use this incredible place to celebrate the past, but also create a future for you and for the building. I think the building, what was also helping is that Maurizio San Martini, the then owner, took very well care of the building. So the structure, the condition of the building is really good. And that, of course, gives us a few years of advance because I was nervous to find a building where you have to work five years because then I would be more than 70 years old.

11:06So I said also to Patrick, I don't want to start my new phase in my life and still waiting for five years because then maybe I better retire immediately. Now, we said like this gives us the possibility immediately to start with something. And that's what we did. So because the building is, in fact, is in good condition. OK, there is on the first floor nearly no electricity. So those things we have to bring in. But no, it's very usable. and strangely enough even when it's like a huge building and the ceilings are 6 meters 6 meters 50 high and everything there is a human scale to it there is a warmth to it it's not that you walk around in Versailles of course it's a palazzo built to impress but there is also a very strong human factor in it there is something really tender in it and I think it's that balance the grandness but also kind of the charm which makes it very human and I think everybody who's coming in say like okay now it is even that the ceilings are so high I could imagine that somebody lives in this place of course we're not going to live in those rooms but I think it's that gives it a different dimension.

12:16Are there no living quarters in the place that you could move into you have no plans to to live in the in the building? We plan to live here we we have the third floor where the ceilings are only 3 meters 50 or 4 meters where I'm sitting now, which is on the top of the palazzo, the third floor. There's still a fourth floor also, but that's more the attic and the loft. So we can live here. So we still have to make up our mind. But first, from October on, we have to do the works where we have then to do kind of the new elevator, which is also handicap accessible. We have to do a lot of things about electricity and techniques, in fact, heating, airco, all those things.

12:58Have you had to deal with an aqua alta yet? We had already the aqua alta, but the palazzo is luckily enough high enough. Oh, that's wonderful. So we have the ground floor, which is then in situations like that, is humid but not really completely underwater. Now, the exhibition is called The Only True Protest is Beauty, your first exhibition and your new space. The only true protest is beauty. And that's from a song by Phil Ox, who was a contemporary of Bob Dylan's in Greenwich Village in the early 60s. How did you come across this? I mean, the preface for that line is in such ugly times. The only true protest is beauty.

13:45It's not coincidental that you've chosen that title, obviously. It was something which I saw passing by on social media. Don't ask me where or when. And it really stuck to me because it was the full sentence which I said, like in such ugly times, the only true protest is beauty. And I think that's now nearly one year and a half because the idea of what we are doing now of this presentation is already growing for quite a while. And I said like, oh, this is really kind of the perfect working title because at that time I thought like the world, by the moment that we can start our presentation, is going to be already a much better place.

14:26But then where we are now with the world, I said, like, maybe we can't have a better title than this one. But on the other hand, I said also, I don't want to work now, like, for a year on something where the name is so negative because it's such ugly times. I think everybody knows that it's ugly times. And we say protest, you protest against something. So I think it's quite clear when we say the only true protest is beauty, that people know what we mean. And okay, sometimes in some documentation we still use a full title, but for me it was more exactly what I want to do because I'm a positive person.

15:05I don't want to say, oh, poor us, look where we are, the world is so bad. No, we have to look forward. Your definition of beauty in this context, I think, is very interesting, quite provocative because you're not talking about beauty as a resolution. You're talking about beauty as a tension. You're pitching beauty as a very proactive, provocative notion. But the beauty that it seems to me that you're talking about, you said it's a question, not an answer. I think people, especially in fashion, when people talk about beauty, it's often got an escapist angle to it. But you're definitely talking about beauty as engagement rather than escape with this exhibition, it seems to me.

15:54For me, it can't be only escape. And I think beauty can be so much more than just pretty. For me, the beauty, a person can be beautiful. And it's much more layered again than just like a beautiful person, a good looking person. No, for me, beautiful people are really people who mean something, who do something, who have a way that they think that they live in the world, the way that they stand in the world. Beauty for me also can be healing and beauty is something super personal because what's beautiful for me is maybe not beautiful for you. There are so many different notions about what beauty can be and how beauty can help you as a person to live in a better life.

16:38Those are the things which I want really to work on and to investigate. And as you said i don't want to give an answer i think for everybody they have to make up their minds we show here pieces of from an artist and i had very long talks with him because he said i really don't want that you call my work beautiful because he said my my work i want to make revolting things i want to shock people i want to surprise people but then for me i said i think when you can place them in the right way they still have kind of a beauty maybe not an easy beauty, not like something pleasing to the eye. And especially when we can put those in kind of dialogue with other pieces.

17:21So they're going to make people ask themselves very interesting questions. So I really hope that when people walk here through the presentation that they see all different types and that, okay, there are very beautiful, traditional, beautiful things. There are things which are quite scary. There is a lot of memento mori. There is a lot of those kind of of yeah intriguing things and you know from my career in the past when things became too pretty or too easy i tried to to give it a different twist and to change it that you think oh now i understand what he wants to say you turn around the corner you see something else which makes it then again more kind of demanding and clear what what the message exactly is about so as you said no answer yet no answer i think everybody has to find his own answer don't expect from me that I'm going to say what everybody has to think.

18:16How do you see the element of protests emerging though? I think protest is an important thing. You have to, you can't only sit there and just live the situation we are going in. There is so much ugliness around us. Ugliness again in the same way that beauty is not one layer. Ugliness is also so deep. There is so much negativity. but negativity for me is just ugliness which is there so that i think you have to do something we have to move forward again for me it's impossible just to sit there and to complain and say like oh poor us look what's now happening no you have to you have to move forward and i'm not a nostalgic person i always look to the future and i think the future you have to protest you have to have hope.

19:07Protest for me also gives hope. And I think that's important. So it's significant that you have Ayam Hassan in the exhibition because he's a designer from the West Bank. And that feels to me very symbolic almost of what you're trying to do here, that he embodies hope in a particularly ugly situation, it seems to me. I mean, is that why he's in the he's in the presentation in the exhibition that's exactly why he's there because there's a lot of fashion in the exhibition so there is 35 uh silhouettes of fashion where first we have come the garçon and christian lacroix which are completely two completely different designers completely different starting points but sometimes growing to each other when you see when you compare the final result when you see the silhouettes together or in the same space you're you're it's surprising how close sometimes the end result is but i wanted also to have somebody young somebody is really working now and just starts now not somebody like christian christian lacroix who stopped already so many years ago or a very established designer like rei kawaku I wanted also to have like the young one.

20:26And then I saw the things what I am did. And especially also the text, how he was writing, what he was talking about, saying that you can't only mourn, that you have to be able to dream, to think about future parties. You have to see the beauty and things like that. So to survive. And that for me was a little bit like the symbol of so many things I wanted to say with this presentation that I said, OK, we have to have some pieces of his collection here. In the context, that's quite a political statement. It's creating a role for fashion in a much broader context. You know, there's been this really, I think, a debate that's become a lot more intense over the last few years about what is the relevance of fashion and how does fashion interact with the world, especially when the world, as we've established, is becoming a much uglier, more difficult place.

21:31And having someone like Ayam in the show really seems to be a subtle or not so subtle way of reinforcing that idea that fashion can be relevant and actually needs to be relevant. I think fashion has to be relevant to survive because otherwise it just becomes product. And for me, fashion is too noble to reduce it only to product and profit. that I think is really not the importance of fashion. I think fashion still stays a way of communication and something really kind of a beautiful way to express yourself, first as a designer and afterwards also as a person who wears clothes in fashion. I'm not so busy so much with what is now art and what is craftsmanship.

22:20No, it's more that it's what is really made, Because for me, it's very important that things are made with your head, with your brain, with your hands and with your soul. And not AI, chat GPT and these type of things. And there for me is much more now the difference between those two different worlds. Because when you make something with your soul, there is place for intuition. There is place for creativity. There is place for coincidence. I think the best artworks and the best creations often happen that you are making something and you stop halfway because you say you reached already what you want to say only halfway of the total process what you wanted to create.

23:04And those for me are the interesting things. And that's also what you want to show with the videos. There are in the whole presentation, there are 32 videos that we show of makers. If it's now artists or an artisan or somebody who does something on his own or with a whole atelier of people helping them, I think that's what I'm so intrigued by. And then the narrative which you can create with all those different pieces. I love this idea that you have in your material, the thinking with one's hands. I mean, that is such a graphic idea. I mean, the minute I read that, I thought of Picasso for some reason, because he worked in so many different media, I mean, painting and sculpture and ceramics.

23:47And it felt very much to me like, oh, this is what you want to do in the Palazzo. You want to celebrate that kind of, what would you call it? It's not a Gesamtkunstwerk. And I only say that because I like saying Gesamtkunstwerk. but you know the totality of what you're trying to do feels to me very elevated quite kind of different from anything that you've done in the past. Picasso was one of the artists who was really very much in our talks that we had with people who advised us we'd helped us to create kind of the thing because so of course my question often was picasso is an artist of course yes uh picasso made ceramics it's still art are the ceramics from picasso art or is it really craftsmanship okay when he makes one dish okay it's art when he makes 400 dishes is it still art when he makes 400 dishes he paints one and then staff from the company paints the rest looking like him what is that then when it's really a vase you can put flowers in is it after this craftsmanship so it was that really that whole discussion that it's absolutely unnecessary it's an unnecessary discussion for me it doesn't stop because now it's more utility or it's some because you have that whole thing okay craftsmanship is everything which is utility okay but that i think it's too limited and uh we asked some really good writers also a very young one Ezra Babsky to write about this dilemma to see like is it really necessary still is it still important where one starts and the other stops and vice versa and my answer is no it's not necessary so in that way we show art and craftsmanship really happily together in a happy marriage I think and it's yeah it's really discussion which is became for me unnecessary And I still want to add there even more kind of because I want to bring music also in the palazzo.

25:53I want to do things with music because also music is something purely personal. You put your soul in music. And even when you give the same piece of music to different musicians, everybody plays it in a different way. They add something personal. They have young winemakers who still also try to push the taste of wine to something which is not done before or a different way. So I think we're going to have a lot of fun with all those things. Do you think that's going to be a challenge for people? I mean, I don't see the kind of art versus craftsmanship or art and craftsmanship debate as significant either.

26:33But I think there's a very interesting point to be made in culture as it is now about the relationship between concept and collectability and functionality, which I think has been raised in some of the writing about what you're planning to do. I don't know. What do you think of that? That concept, collectability and functionality. I see. There are three very significant ideas that relate to what it is you were just talking about. I think everybody has to make up for himself. And I think the last thing that I want to do is to dictate and to say, now I found the answer to all those questions. I think we want to provoke, maybe.

27:20Yes, I think for me, it's more provoking that I want to show, like, look, those are things. We put them together. They create a narrative. They are also the palazzo plays an important role in everything what we show here, because it's not a neutral place. So it's kind of, it's quite bombastic. And there is a lot of things to see, which adds to still a layer, an extra layer. The fact that you see it in a historical place for me makes it even more interesting. So we are in Venice, an historical city, a city which is also known for the Biennale, which is often very politically connected, especially this year.

27:59And this one where you have then also Israel, Russia and things like that. So it's that whole idea of like, do we have to dictate what people have to think? No. I think for me, we have to provoke. We can show. And I think especially here, what we're going to show now, I think, I hope people are going to say like, okay, it made me a little bit clear, but I think everybody will have a different answer on what they have seen. I hope. That would be a really success when everybody comes out and say, oh, it was very interesting, but for different reasons.

28:40We'll be right back with more on the BOF Podcast.

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30:01I would imagine that the curation of this exhibition was quite an exciting challenge. I'd love to know how you went about it with the artists and the galleries. And I mean, what were the criteria you used? I was curious. You seem to use one gallery in Antwerp a lot and one gallery in Barcelona a lot as well. How did all of that come to pass? There was, of course, there are my old loves. So there were things which I always admired and things that you know and that you say, OK, this is really interesting. also a lot of coincidence. So I think social media is something you see things passing by, click, you photograph it, and then after you go to your phone.

30:48And in the past, I always explained my brain as a kind of a sponge, which takes drips of things of impressions, which I see when you create something, you squeeze the sponge, and then what's coming out is not really, it's kind of a mixture of all the different elements. Now, I think my phone became a little bit of my sponge. My brain is maybe not so good condition anymore. My memory became a little shorter. But the quantity of pictures what I just take by seeing something, oh, this looks interesting. Oh, magazine, quick pictures. And when you start to go to your phone, you start to see there is, without that you know, there is kind of a line in it.

31:26There is kind of things which are coming back and you see things which speak to each other. And I was surprised by cleaning up last week before we really start with installation of the presentation. I really saw that, in fact, things what we've put together already, like what I put together like a year ago, is still now really standing here side by side in the rooms. So there is kind of clear consistency in it. And it's really creating kind of a narrative. So sometimes it has to do with the palazzo. Sometimes it has to do with the pieces itself. Sometimes it's something very plain straightforward, like the material.

32:06There's a room where we have a lot of wood pieces, where you have the most free thinking and the most kind of complex designer in the same room. And they make each other so strong. And then we still put one piece of sotsas there, which is kind of like structure and craziness at the same time. So there is, for me, in Sotsas, you have the two worlds of the two other designers coming together. Okay, some people are going to say they're all wood. Okay, so, and I see kind of all the underlying thinking there. So, no, it's, we will see. When you had that incredible show at the Musée des Arts Décoratifs a few years ago, where you mixed your clothes and art, incredible art pieces.

32:53That show was honestly a revelation. But do you feel, was that a sort of dress rehearsal in a way? I mean, do you feel that you've been prepping yourself, you know, in a way, all your life for something like this, in the way that you have always curated your life so well, like your house, your garden, everything feels like, you know, this incredible totality, this sort of like a stream of consciousness almost. I think I couldn't have done what we do now without the kind of what we learned in Musée des Éire de Créatifs with that incredible team of people that we had there and also afterwards with the show in Antwerp.

33:38So that was really like a learning process. and there is quite a lot of what I learned now in this new adventure that we have. So yes, that for me was, it was not like a general rehearsal because it was also a different thing because there it was to explain my own ideas, how my inspiration works, how most of the designers work, that is really kind of a brain of a creative person. Here I have, of course, completely a free choice because the relation between the pieces is not connected to my own creativity, but it's like the creativity of the designers, where I really wanted to work with very established names, but then also kind of people who just come from school, or people who are just like very good craftsmen here in Venice.

34:30We have people who work making things in wood from 86, just around the corner here in San Tomas, who makes kind of wood carving already his whole life. And unfortunately, he has no assistant or kind of an intern who can learn all his skills. But you have then also young designers now who work also in craft with the newest tools and everything. So it's really that kind of strange layering of things where creativity is really kind of the point in common. Did you talk to Axel Werwurt at all? He came here quite early and we discussed. And there is also one artist from Axel Werwurt Gallery, which is very present in this exhibition.

35:20He seems to me to be someone who's always been able to pull all these disparate things together and make this whole new world out of all these almost random things. I don't dare to compare myself with Axel. I think he's a master in what he's doing. I do it also sometimes in a slightly different way. So I'm very curious to see what he's going to say. Me too. This show is very, very broad, and there's hundreds of elements in it. What do you imagine exhibitions in the future will be like in the Palazzo? Completely different. because I don't think, I don't want to repeat what we do now. So also, what we are doing now is really something what we managed to do in the timeframe we had because we signed the Palazzo only in July last year.

36:14So that gave us not so much time. So, and also we need time as a Fondazione to create our network and also how our funding will be used best. Because, of course, a presentation like this is very costly. It's an expensive thing, what we did here. So we hope that there's going to be a lot of visitors coming to see and also to help us. We have to see what would be the most interesting to continue. And definitely also this exhibition is already quite static. It's quite long. It's five months. and I want to have kind of a foundation which is very dynamic that a lot of different things can happen that's why also already now during this five months we're going to do quite a lot of different things also what we call the satellite projects where we're going to have talks with more established designers and young designers where we're going to have evenings where we show videos from makers and people where then people can ask questions we're going to do things with music where we're going to do things with food but there is also already that is really getting kind of a dynamic and that people feel that the palace is also the palazzo is really kind of actually easy accessible that it's open to people of fairness do you imagine it becoming your foundation becoming a way station in the biennale situation like the prada foundation or the pinot foundation that it will become as significant a player as as they are would you like that it's not a goal it's absolutely not a goal also i think we have different budgets so uh in that way we have we will see but i think let's say that that when you compare with food that you have then maybe the three-star restaurants and that maybe then the one-star restaurant also can do very exciting things and speak maybe to other people you're much too humble the mission the mission is is inspiring.

38:19I mean, you've talked about residencies, you've talked about educational programs and the satellite projects that will swim around the Palazzo. That feels to me like an absolutely massive commitment. What kind of support system do you have to work on this, to make all of this happen? We are working, in fact, on our program now, how exactly we're going to do. If you want to work mostly with local schools, if you want to work more with international schools, if it's necessary to do kind of residencies, because residencies are eating money. So it's expensive to have residencies. So you need spaces.

39:01You have to have a kind of a whole organization to that. So I want to see really we are now working on our program for the next months after this presentation from October on what is going to be our role. How can we support young people? How can we do things? How can we reach young people? Because that's always, okay, you can make a beautiful presentation, you can make a beautiful exhibition, but are young people going to have something? Is there going to be somebody who says like, look, I'm hesitating what I want to do now in my life. Maybe I can do something with my hands. if we can achieve that it's already like a beautiful thing what we can do that we can say things which you're made by your hands have an extra value it's a little bit like the same thing as we look towards fashion that we we're going to work now but for me it's too early to say look we're going to do so many residents every year we're going to talk with so many schools we're going to have people from all over the world flying over to on our expense no that would be too simple i think we we just have to see we know the budgets we have which are not huge and then we can see how we can use the money and i think we we have to be keep our eyes and ears open constantly and there to change and to learn from from our path forward because there is no program or a text a book which you can buy and say this is perfect recipe of making a fondatione works around craft and when people ask is there another uh foundation in the world which you think is an example how where you look at and you say okay that's not what you want to achieve i say like no not that i know okay last weeks we have quite some people already who reached out who say like oh maybe i can help maybe i can do some things maybe that could be a point but the last weeks we have been so busy to to turn a palazzo in uh in an exhibition space which was more complex than we imagined a few months ago that that this is a little bit on hold and i'm looking really forward now with my small team to continue now to explore all the things what uh what people have written to us and and to engage there because we know also october when this presentation is going to be finished is going It's very soon.

41:27So we have already like a small music festival the third weekend of October, together with the Biennale of Music. We have three days where we're going to do music in a palazzo, all different types of music. And from then on, okay, we move to our other space because we still have a second space. We're going to move because then the palazzo closes for 14, 15 months. Has there ever been a moment where you've stepped back and said, oh my god what have we done every day but then luckily enough you go to another floor you see something you see the light falling in in a way or you see one candle burning somewhere you say like oh good that's what it is do you think of this as your legacy do you think do you think in those terms um that's not the goal that's not the goal of course it's nice so at a certain At the moment you said also, what shall we do now?

42:26And okay, we have the brand. The brand is doing well. So very happy with that. We have a house in Belgium and our garden. But it's maybe quite selfish that I still want to have fun by doing things and not just having fun sitting on the beach somewhere. Why is that selfish? Surely that's everybody's dream. No, not everybody, but a lot of people. No, for me, it's something that it's kind of, it's really something personal that I want to still achieve something. And then, okay, it's not really my legacy, because I think maybe in a few years I will be, I hope that I still have a few years to build up this and to see maybe it can become that.

43:08But who knows what we're still going to do in a few years. I mean, with the theme of the show, which is kind of the notion of disruption, would you like what you're doing here to be disruptive in a way you did say it provocative but but when you say you can't think of anywhere else in the world like this can you think of any time in history when it was you know something similar some some people attempted something similar i don't know i don't know enough of what happened in the world i i know a lot about fashion and I'm learning still a lot. And I think for me, I'm in the learning process. And I hope that I can be in the rest of my life in the learning process.

43:51I think that makes me the most happy. So I really, I don't want to arrive. I don't want to say, oh, I arrived now somewhere. No, I just always like, I want to learn more and to discover more. And that's how I am. And it's like, that gives me the energy. That's also how I was as designer. And I think that's how, especially now, even more, I feel even more stimulated to first discover a new city with new people and new friends. And also now so many new things and new artists. And again, very happy. A lot of young people. Is this world very different from the world that you've been living in for years, decades?

44:33The world that you're moving in now? It's much more open. I meet much more different people. I meet much more different types of people also. So, of course, in fashion, it's so intense, so it's a quite narrow group of people. It's always like the same type of people. Okay, fashion shows, of course, you meet people who are busy with light and sound and music and musicians and all those things. But here, it's the spectrum of the range of different people you meet is so fantastic. So last week I was still standing here at a person in Venice who makes books, a bookbinder and kind of prints covers of books and things like that.

45:13I think he's 87. It was, oh, I had tears in my eyes. He was so happy and so proud to show me book covers that he made completely marble and in glass. And he was so happy that we could be part of our new adventure. So things like that. Sorry, but that's unique. Wonderful. I'm so jealous. I would pray that something could happen like this to me one day, but I think time's running out. So Dries, thank you so much. So wonderful to see you talk to you and I'm so excited about this project. We do and I really hope to see you here in Venice. You will. Bye Tim. Bye Dries. The BOF podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.

46:02Amen.