Is Nike Finally Winning With Women?

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. And I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. When we talk about Nike as this omnipresent force in global sports, certain moments come to mind. There's Michael Jordan and Just Do It, there's Tiger Woods juggling the golf ball on his club, and there's Colin Kaepernick's close-up. But with a few exceptions, and Serena Williams is a big one, they're all men. Nike sells billions of dollars worth of sneakers, apparel, and equipment to women every year, but it's never quite connected with female athletes on that same primordial level.

0:53But that might be changing. This year, Nike ran its first Super Bowl ad in nearly three decades, built entirely around female athletes with the tagline, So Win. Since then, Nike has announced a new brand with Kim Kardashian's Skims and released a blockbuster sneaker with WNBA star Asia Wilson. Last month, it appointed Amy Montaigne, the head of its women's division and the architect behind many of these moves, to lead the entire Nike brand and name two other female executives to keep hosts. Is Nike finally winning with women? My co-host Sheena recently set out to answer that question. She spoke to Amy Montaigne in her first interview since taking her new role.

1:36Sheena, welcome to the hot seat. Wow, it's so nice to be in a different seat this time, I think, I hope. Yeah, you say that now. I know. Your story actually doesn't open with Asia Wilson or Amy Montaigne. It actually starts with a very different campaign that launched 20 years ago. Why did you go that far back? Tell us about that. Yeah, I think in your intro, you sort of described this already, but when we talk about Nike as having a problem or finally turning a corner, it's very important with a brand as successful as Nike is that generates about $50 billion in sales every year to sort of define what a Nike grade problem actually looks like.

2:12So the premise of the story was that Nike is like finally turning the corner. They're finally winning with women. And so I actually, to get really granular, like I did a web search, like what were people saying about Nike 20 years ago? It's 2025. What did a news headline about Nike and women look like in 2005. And believe it or not, my combination of like the very first Google search I did came up with this article of the New York Times. And I could not have manufactured this myself, but like the lead was about Nike trying to do all of these things to win with women after years of failures. So 20 years ago, the New York Times was describing Nike as failing with women at that point and trying a bevy of new tactics.

2:51And among them was this idea of mailing, I think, 600 ,000 catalogs of their Nike women's products to houses across the country, opening a women's store in Westchester, New York. And I think the third thing was revamping the website. So I was actually testing our premise that was Nike not winning with women for 20, 30 years? And it looked like if the times is to be believed, that was the idea over 20 years ago. And I think given the nature of your current story, it's safe to say that 2005 effort, The catalogs didn't work and turn Nike into a - I can confirm the catalogs did not work. And then the website also went away and that store is no longer around.

3:31But again, I think I always have to say when we're talking about Nike, their women's business today is worth$8.6 billion. And the second competitor behind Nike in women's apparel, athletic apparel is Lululemon. And Nike is lapping them by about$2 billion in annual revenues. That's crazy. And that's just their wholesale business. So it's probably an even bigger lead. I mean, that's just crazy how big they are. Oh, absolutely. And so again, I think when we say Nike is losing, Nike is sort of in its own category. So they're losing the way Nike loses. Like people think they could be doing more or they could have been doing more with women to rival what they were doing with men.

4:05So their problem 20 years ago was probably the same problem that they've had a year ago, which is the perception that women play second fiddle to the men's business and to male-dominated sports. And we're not just talking about sales here, right? Yeah, no. I think sales is probably the least of the issues when you think about$8.6 billion and then Lululemon at$6.7 billion with wholesale revenues. It is a perception issue. It's how people viewed Nike to be treating women as consumers. And then there are women athletes like, we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but Alison Felix, who departed in a very headline-making way in 2018.

4:40Well, let's talk about that now, actually, because, I mean, that really does illustrate the entire problem. I mean, we're talking 15 years after this campaign to turn Nike into this premier women's brand. I mean, what did their top female athletes say? So there's a combination of different things. I mean, the headline there is basically they felt that Nike did not treat them as well as they did their male counterparts is sort of the top line. But Alison Felix, you know, the Olympic winning track star found herself, you know, needing a maternity leave from track and field in 2018 and going to her big endorsement partner of Nike and finding out that actually she would have to take a pay cut for the duration of her maternity leave and would also lose, I guess, certain benefits that she thought she would have.

5:26And she exposed that in a 2018 article. And then she also departed the brand for Gap-owned Athleta. And then Simone Biles did something similarly, maybe within two years, about two years later. And I don't know that she was as vocal, but the subtext from these women was that Nike did not see the women athlete and the women's business as a priority. And so I think that that would cover it. We're not as important as the men are. And then that also became the there was also a thread to that internally. So in 2018, both The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times wrote these investigations talking about Nike women executives, women talent actually across the rungs of the business, feeling like they were in a boys club, that they were being passed over for promotions and advancement within the company.

6:14and it was the men that were leading and who were valued and whose opinions were solicited. And again, these are all allegations, I should say, all allegations, but that was the impression. And that's how people saw Nike not being successful with women at that time. And we should add the last of the lawsuits that stemmed from those investigations was settled just this year, just a couple of months ago. But I think around that time, It sounds like what Amy told you is that the seeds to Nike's current, I don't know if we want to say renaissance with women, also started around that time, right? Yeah.

6:50So if you remember, I think you and I talked about this in working on the story. Mark Parker, who was the CEO at Nike at the time, did something that was a little unprecedented. He issued a public apology over the allegations that came out through from women leaders and women across Nike's company that said that they weren't treated well. he actually publicly apologized in response to those two articles that had come out from the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. And so Nike sort of can't really shy away from that moment. So that was happening 2018, 2019. Then you had Alison Felix leaving, and I think a little later Simone Biles.

7:24But Nike had also been throwing a lot of investment behind the women's soccer team that same year. And so they were getting a lot of feedback from women, positive and not positive. And one of the things that Tanya Vizdak, who is a VP of global marketing, said was that the company started to take stock of what women were saying about them. They started like a think tank with women athletes, women consumers. And what they heard was that women wanted more from the company. And so this was sort of the beginning of, I think, what we're seeing today, like them actually having the opinion of women driving some of the initiatives and taking more women into leadership to lead the things that were supposed to resonate with women.

8:02Tell us about some of the initiatives that came out of that think tank. There's some really interesting products that I think illustrate nicely what you're talking about here. So there are a few things that came out of it. Right before the think tank was this amazing ad with the Women's World Cup in France that premiered called Dream With Us. And it featured the U.S. women's soccer team. And that was the front facing marketing culmination of some of the things that were taking shape internally. And then out of the think tank in the couple of years that followed, you started to see Nike producing more products that were as expansive as maybe their men's offerings had been for women.

8:35So there was a maternity line. Nike had had some kind of maternity offering before this. And also they had leak protection shorts that came out in 2023. So those were designed to minimize the risk of leaks during menstruation and physical activity. And then a lot of campaigns that started to follow like what we're going to what we're seeing now with Asia Wilson is also a result of this think tank. So Asia Wilson is a member of the athlete think tank that Nike formed for women. And we should say there was this parallel moment happening in women's sports where, you know, the Women's World Cup in France in 2019 was one early example of it.

9:09But there was this explosion of interest in women's basketball, both WNBA and college, more recently with Caitlin Clark and, you know, women's soccer, other women's sports really starting to take their place alongside men's in the wider marketplace. Yeah, I think that the WNBA is a good example of Nike's evolution in that the basketball category for women had been challenged for a while. And so Matt Powell, who is like one of the best athletic industry experts you could find on this topic, he talked about these very, we love Matt Powell. We do love Matt Powell. So he talked about like for a while, the basketball category for women felt a little tough to get after.

9:50And this is not just Nike. This was every brand, all of their competitors from Adidas to New Balance to fill in the blank had always struggled with basketball specifically. It's such a tiny market. And then because of the underinvestment in basketball for women's, you had a lot of women athletes just preferring to wear the men's shoes. So this idea was sort of it was a full circle idea of like, well, we don't have good product. The men's are just better. So we'll just buy men's shoes. So when a woman's shoe did launch, women athletes didn't actually buy it because they already expected the men's to be better.

10:22And so for a long time, brands started to just not invest in women's because they couldn't see the ROI. So another source in the story, Portia Blunt, who is a longtime athletic industry veteran. She worked at New Balance and Reebok. She would talk about they would invest for a season or two. There would be no ROI and then they would pull back. And so basketball was tough. And then in the last couple of years, what we saw coming out of college basketball, like your Angel Reese and your Caitlin Clark, had a way of reinvigorating the sport that met this moment with what Nike had been doing for the last couple of years.

10:51So basketball is exciting and Nike sort of its investment allowed it to be where it needed to be as this category got hot again. It's really remarkable that Nike was an initial partner with the WNBA. I mean, they were all over the WNBA when it launched in the 90s and they were putting out signature sneakers just like you saw with NBA stars. And then there was this 15 year gap where they didn't put out a single sneaker other than these one offs. And, you know, that changed in 2022, but it really does illustrate Porsche's point that there was no long term game plan there, it seems. Do you think that's changed?

11:26I think so. I think the think tank is a good example of soliciting women's opinions to kind of help you better get after them as a market. I think you're also seeing Nike shift away from what Matt Powell called these very male centric go to market strategies. So he talked about, you know, 20 years ago, Nike and a lot of its competitors would come to the marketing campaigns and say, we're coming out with a new women's sports bra and it's going to be so innovative and so great. It's going to be the only sports bra she'll ever need. And he said, no, but if she's in yoga, she'll need a different kind of sports bra for that.

11:59If she's running, she'll need a different kind of bra for that. That kind of strategy is the way a man would think about what a woman would need. I think that them having a think tank and then also we didn't get into this as much yet, but like someone like Amy that just got promoted, having women leaders making the decisions is also why the strategy of going to market has gotten better. So there are women that are actually saying, I don't just wear one bra. I don't just go to yoga. I might go to yoga and then I might go to running and there's two different kinds of bras I'll need. And also I might need a different kind of pants or shorts with leak proof protection for a certain time of the month.

12:33All of those things were coming out of, I think, a 360 approach to women that we're seeing now. I think that has gotten better and the proof is in the pudding. And it seems like some Nike skeptics are coming around and saying it seems like they really mean it this time. Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of where we were. This all seems to be working because it is happening both in the bold marketing campaigns that the consumer sees, but it's also from the inside out. You have women like Amy, who, by the way, twice led the women's business. So she was GM of women's twice. And then she just became the first woman brand president of Nike.

13:11So even taking someone from the women's division that led all of the things that culminated in this success today, taking her and making her brand president is actually quite symbolic. And to use Matt Powell's phrase, it's also functional. So Nike has been in the worst revenue slump that it's had in decades. And their new CEO has identified women's as one of the huge categories of growth. And so having a woman lead as Nike brand president is probably another way to activate that lever and get after women's and become the$50 billion brand that Nike's trying to be. Although I will say when I was going down my own trip down Nike memory lane, I found them using almost identical language about a decade ago saying women's was going to catapult them to$30 billion in revenue.

13:54And once, you know, it's a very similar situation as 2005. it like there was some incremental gains and then it kind of petered out and they moved on. But I think you're right that this feels different. I mean, the primary example I see is if you go to Nike's, like the main brands, Instagram, it is just saturation, Asia Wilson, other female athletes. There's like one like hockey player, but other than that, it's just like, they are really going all in. And this is months and months after that. So when campaign first was released. I mean, they really seem to think they have something here. Yeah.

14:31Well, I think you said it. You were the one that came up with like a golf pun for this, that they've taken their swing before, but it's like the follow through that counts. We were talking about it. I think consistency will be the most important thing for them. Now it's like, you're doing all the right things, but if you don't keep doing all the right things, you know, it could easily shift. It's taken a long time to move this needle and it won't take much to move it back if you're not consistent. And I think the representation bit is also going to be important, which is what Portia pointed out.

14:59It's that, you know, we've seen this steady increase in terms of women leadership representation at Nike over the last four or five years. They should continue to do that if they're going to have the women's business stick as a key revenue driver.

15:15We'll be back with more of The Debrief right after this.

15:23I think another reason this seems like it might have some staying power is they're investing on the technical side as well. This is not just marketing. I mean, you mentioned a couple of products already, but another great example is their work with the runner Faith Kip Yagon to break the four minute mile. Tell us a bit about that. I mean, it's a full scale investment that Nike's doing. They're backing her efforts end to end. Like they're, you know, they're providing her with the equipment. the I think they're actually setting up the facility for her to do it and making sure like all the conditions are right so she actually breaks the record this is similar to kind of what we're seeing with uh Asia Wilson like I talked to the team about their investment in her and they were very like we're actually listening to her and what she likes to do so Asia wants to be in in like more of the fashion world so they've like twice paid to send her to Paris they've brought her to Paris on one occasion to like a Nike show that they were doing as a fashion week activation they've paid for her to have stylists they've supported her book tour so like not just in putting you as the face of something putting the money behind backing even your personal dreams so i think faith obviously she is a runner but nike's not just investing in her wearing the logo at a race someday they're actually supporting her in the personal goal of breaking a record and asia yes they're giving her her a signature shoe which she has they're putting her in these amazing campaigns all over Nike women, but also the Nike proper Instagram page.

16:49But they're asking her, you know, what are your dreams? She said, I want to be at a European fashion show. And they paid for her to do that. So I think that's sort of where a lot of brands miss the mark. It's like, it's very, it makes a lot of sense. It's very commonsensical to have a big splashy campaign with a marquee athlete or someone that's super talented. But if you invest in the whole person, It seems like that sticks a little more to consumers. They actually see that a little bit too. And that tackles a big complaint about Nike and from female athletes generally that they are often treated as second-class citizens in the sports world, that they're getting inadequate training facilities.

17:26They don't get flown on private jets. They're flying coach. Like there's a whole long history of that. And I think Nike tackling that head on and saying, we're going to treat our stars just like we do, you know, LeBron James and Michael Jordan back in the day is a pretty big shift for them. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Michael Jordan. This Skims partnership is actually like akin to, by many people's standards, the next Jordan brand. I mean, I don't know if you can put Kim Kardashian next to Michael Jordan in like a athletic way, but in terms of like them investing in something that is going to be huge and having it be a woman's focus.

18:00Sorry, I'm just imagining. I know I want to see the one-on-one between Kim and Michael on the basketball court like that's a I don't know which sport we might have to pick it may not be basketball but baseball may be a more even match there you go uh but I think it's it's um having this kind of a brand that could rival you know one of Nike's biggest brand investments and having that be a woman-fronted brand is also super important and then with skims your Nike has this tagline that if you have a body you're an athlete. And one of the things that both Amy and Tanya Vizdek, who is VP of marketing at Nike, talked about was that we want to be more inclusive of the full spectrum of women out in the world.

18:43You don't have to be Serena Williams. Serena Williams is an athlete that Nike has backed, probably from very early on in a comparable way to a LeBron James. When we talk about Nike's investment in women, it depends on the athlete you choose. Serena Williams is certainly one of their biggest investments that they've made. But she is a one of one and not every woman can relate to Serena as much as they admire her. So this Skims opportunity is Nike showing up as that inclusive. If you have a body, you're an athlete kind of brand because, you know, Skims emphasizes curves and sculpting and all of those other things that women want when they get dressed in athletic apparel or these sort of the kind of garment that is not fashion week stuff.

19:29Although it's interesting because that feels very pre-Elliott Hill Nike and their biggest campaigns have really been the opposite of that lately. I think a lot of their campaigns are almost like, get off the couch, you jerk, and wear Nike while you're doing it. I'm not mad at that. No, I think, I mean, I think they're big enough. Like you said before, they are, they are so big that they could, they could do everything. Like they don't need to pick one lane. They can do every lane and they have the resources to do it. And that's, you know, to their credit here. So Sheena, are you ready to predict the future and say in five years, are you going to write another story saying five years ago, Nike launched a campaign called So Win and promised that women's sports would take its place along men's.

20:11Today, they're trying again. I hope that is not the case in five years. I think that to be I would like to quote sort of the sentiments that I heard from everyone, which is that, you know, Nike has all the tools a brand can have to be successful in every category, as you said, to be Nike and to win. it means you have to win at all things. So the reason that Nike is perceived to be behind the eight ball in women's is because it's just not to the degree that they are with men's. Right now, I would say the catalog going to 600 ,000 homes 20 years ago is not the same as having Asia Wilson, Caitlin Clark, and all of these amazing athletes on Nike Instagram proper, having a building named after Serena Williams, probably having a Caitlin Clark's shoe very soon, having a major Super Bowl ad in February, that's not the same.

21:02This is definitely up a notch. So I think if they stay in this direction, my predictions, I don't think I will be writing this story in five years. That sounded like the one that I quoted this month. I think you're right about that. And one reason is also Nike really has nothing to lose. I mean, they really need a win and they got one with Asia Wilson. It's almost as notable. The fact that she's a woman is that it is a successful sneaker launch from Nike, which they have not had a lot of recently men's or women's. So I think if they see they can revive the brand this way, they're going to go all in.

21:38And that's a lot of the moves they're making seem pointed in that direction. Sheena, thank you so much for joining me as a guest today. Please be sure to check out Sheena's article, Is Nike Finally Winning With Women? at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria. I'm Brian Baskin. And I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.