Jonathan Anderson on Reframing Couture at Dior

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to a special episode of the BOF podcast. It's Monday, January 26th. Jonathan Anderson's Haute Couture debut for Dior, which took place earlier today at the Musée Rodin in Paris, was perhaps the most anticipated moment so far in his bid to re-energize the luxury mega brand. In December, I joined Jonathan in Paris just as that collection was coming together to learn how he's re-imagining Couture as a creative laboratory that feeds the entire maison, and to reflect on his journey at Dior thus far. In this exclusive interview, Jonathan talks about why couture still needs to exist, how endangered craft can be protected, and the very human reality of leading a global fashion machine like Christian Dior.

0:57Here's Jonathan Anderson on the BOF podcast. Jonathan Anderson, welcome to the BOF podcast. Thank you very much for having me. Do you know, I was thinking, do you remember we sat down for that conversation when you were just moving into your first post-LVMH J.W. Anderson offices? I think that was, what year was it that you... I was in, I'm trying to work out which building, I think that was in Shackle Lane. Yeah, or something like that. And that was just when LVMH had invested in JW Anderson. So that was... That was 10 years ago. Wow. Yeah. Okay, so it's been 10 years coming. We're sitting here in the space where typically you're doing your men's collections.

1:53Yeah. But now you're doing haute couture fittings here as well. Yeah, and women's. And women's. And it's December 16th. Yeah. So by the time this comes out, it's going to be many, many weeks later. But it was really cool just now to have a look through all of your ideas and how you're thinking about couture. Your first couture collection. And I guess I wanted to start with when you're thinking about, you know, you have these 18 collections you're doing. Some of them are for J.W. Anderson. Some of them are for Dior. What do you see as the purpose of couture? first for you as a creative person and then also in this massive enterprise that is Dior?

2:39Like what's the goal or the purpose of Couture? Well, it's the first, if someone had asked me about a year and a half ago about Couture, I would have been like, I had never projected myself into Couture. I never really understood it. And I would have probably nonchalant would have said something like, well, I think it's irrelevant or something. Oh, really? I probably would have said something like that. Why? Because I never really understood it. I never understood the glamour behind it. You know, there's always something very glamorous or something very kind of at bay or something with the idea of the hierarchy of fashion.

3:24And now? And now I have a completely different understanding of it. I feel like I'm doing, I kind of joke every time I'm in a fitting, I feel like I'm doing like a PhD in couture. Because I have an amazing atelier and it's every day you are learning the process of something that has been done for so long in France. trimming it's it is a kind of it's an institution in itself there's rules there's um there's so many different things you can and cannot do and and in a weird way i was trying to work out how do i approach that or something or how do i how can i relate to it or something i was at the beginning i found it very difficult to relate to until they did one dress and then i was like okay I'm kind of addicted.

4:16And so the purpose of couture, like, you know, in the, in the like reinvention that you're, you're bringing to Dior, like now that you've understood it a bit and you've seen the inside, like how do you see it fitting into what you're doing here? For me, it's a kind of like, it's a very emotional process, actually. I find it quite emotional because I think it's sort of like, it is something that is steeped in history and people who have been working for many, many designers inside this house who are still here. So you, in a way where you have to go into kind of like, like performative mode that yes, I can do this.

4:55And at the same time being like, I'm totally confused. Like imposter syndrome. Yeah. But I was trying to think about like, you know, couture itself. And I was trying to work on how do we reframe the narrative of all of it. And I was thinking of things I like in craft and what I have done in craft over the last 10 years in my previous job. And I was thinking, couture is kind of like an endangered craft as a mindset, a mythology and making with hand. And I was thinking, well, in a weird way, what Dior is doing and other couture houses, which there's not very many left, are kind of protecting this endangered craft as a kind of national symbol, ultimately, of making and i once i kind of was got into that mind space then i was able to work out okay well what do i want from it or what is new for dior ultimately in in a kind of landscape that's had some of my heroes in it for me and so when you first kind of stepped into the atelier and you kind of were trying to figure out where you were going to start.

6:08Was there, what was the first image or idea that was lodged in your creative brain that you, that was, what was the starting point basically? I think my starting point was one of my dearest friends is Magdalene Le Donde, who I have worked with many times. And I think her vessels for me are the idea of form and silhouette and i was thinking that is what duo is so great at is in the silhouette like the the sketch and um i have this like one vase that i like i love of hers which for me was always like a body and she always she always jokes and she's always like well for me that vase is like naomi campbell and i was like okay well what what is a dress that is a vase that ultimately is naomi campbell and what is that in in couture so i kind of showed them this vessel and i was like I liked the idea of it was pleated and it looked like it was being spun like as if like the movement of clay as you build it.

7:10And I don't really sketch but it was the first time I kind of sketched something on a piece of paper very badly and I was like can we resolve this? And then to finish it off like Dior we put a bow on it. And that was that was about a month and a half into the job. Right. And so that This was just before the summer. And so that shape or form kind of made its way into the ready-to-wear, the women's ready-to-wear, right? Which was like kind of mid-resolved. So it was quite interesting to see it like it's like nearly cut and shortened. Right. But the structure is not what the structure is in couture.

7:50Yeah. So what's the difference between the ready-to-wear version and the couture version? Inside the wand and couture, you have these tiny lines of tulle that are gathered, which make this kind of candy floss. This is what I would describe it as. And they build this very, very light structure, which holds the shape so that you can push it in and then it has memory. Whereas the one that we had in the show was more done by Belen. So it's like a bit more of an industrial process. And then it was done by machine pleading, whereas this is hand pleading. so everything is pleated by hand onto the carcass of the shape and then stitched down to keep the shape and when i when i saw the 12 of it on then i then i was like okay we have to open the woman's wear show with a kind of shorter version of it but i was like this is why dior is dior and this is why dior couture yeah needs to exist in a way it needs to exist because they are practicing a skill that if we if you don't practice would disappear you know because i think what people forget in ikutur is that everything is done by hand yeah and what has taken me a bit of time to get used to it is that by doing things by hand things become a lot rounder you know like the seam is a lot rounder it's less uh flat everything becomes slightly more rounded ultimately which has taken me a bit of time to get used to and when you started meeting some of the people in the atelier some of them as you said who've worked with many of your predecessors what surprised you most about their skills the way they work you know their dedication to this craft i think what is interesting is it's like a kind of little mini city of people and like you have like the she shop and the butcher that's their little area so they stay in their own like somebody does flu only does flu um there is no cross-pollination it's very like they take on a look and they look after this look through the entire process so it's like super highly specialized like to the point where it's sort of certain things have to be given to certain people.

10:07You can't kind of go, let's be crazy and move it around. So this for me was like, it was quite interesting to meet all these individuals that all had completely different personalities in very different buildings. You know, so you have like the historical atelier, which is above the store. Then you have like four other ateliers that are doing like little camps of people. And then you also have some of the, like the embroidery houses and the feather houses and all. So you have all these different people that you were, they come in and then you're briefing on these tiny little swatches and then they become this, you know, it might be a fabric that I found and then we're trying to like, is there a mill that still even does it?

10:51Is that for you? I mean, you've worked with so many craftspeople and makers and artisans over the years. Is it intimidating? Of course. I think I'm still intimidated. Until the show is done, I feel like a bit, as you said, a bit imposter. I think people don't comprehend until you're, there's not many houses. There's probably five or six houses in the world at this scale. then there's only so many houses that do couture which is this other layer of the world of a brand so it takes time to in a weird way go into this ecosystem and you have to be able to perform like that which is very scary and quite intimidating but for me it's what I I feel that I learned when I was at the welfare is you have to start somewhere.

11:54And in a weird way, it's about progression. You have to learn through it. And once you've, if I go to work and it becomes a formula, then you get bored and then you don't enjoy it. So in a weird way, everything I do at the moment is for the first time. So it will be the first couture. It's the first year is going to be everything first. So you're, and you're meeting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. and they're trying to, in a weird way, grab a hold of this like running buffalo. Like they're trying to grab onto it and stay on it. So for me, yeah, it's incredibly intense. I think Couture adds this other weird, and I would never really care, but weirdly when you're inside the house in Paris, there is a kind of, it comes with a different thing.

12:43Did you ever come with an idea and they said, no, that's just not possible? or are they able to do anything? They're able to do anything. That's what, there's never no. In a weird way, it was like, for me, it's nearly like cars. It's like, here is an archetype for a brand new car. And it may never be able to go on the road, but we are going to make it happen. You know, I quite like the, you know, it's like in fabric, you'll be like, do you think we can reproduce this 16th century fabric? We won't be able to get it like this, but we will be able to do it like this, or we will get a mill that can reopen looms to do it.

13:21That must be quite refreshing as a creative person, because you hear no a lot normally, right? And it's the one part of the business where there is no no, because it's just about sheer creativity and making. Wow. So it's very kind of like, and we changed the kind of the calendar for it, because I was just like, I cannot do a couture show in 30 days. Like, it's just impossible. So I was like, let's change it into like a six month cycle. Which is kind of the old way of doing things, right? And we just work on it like we, you know, for me, it was like, okay, this is, we're going to do a project with Magdalene.

13:56I want it to be about form. I want to be about these three different things. Off we go. And in a weird way, then you enjoy the look and through the process, I'm enjoying kind of like rejecting it or embracing it or kind of, do we want to add more do we want to take you know so it's a kind of like an experimentation for me it's going to be a lab and and i think because of designers that have been there before like john christian dior himself they have opened the door of this idea of like fantasy and i was thinking to myself like why why do people come to dior for fantasy you know like but ultimately it was birthed out of the idea of fantasy it comes out of a troubled period fantasy and i think it's one of the dna's i think people go to it because they want something you know a bit romantic they want it to be a bit over the top they want it to be about fashion so so for me it's sort of like a it's quite petrifying because you're kind of trying to you've got this like back catalog that is like genius and then you're trying to a respect the codes of the house and then slowly bring codes do you mean because i think that's been the biggest challenge i think over the last year is dealing with like audience and a business and trying to be like i'm in a bubble but then at the same time i'm trying to listen to outside the bubble where you're kind of going the brand needs this in the moment And I think this is where couture has been kind of a bit like an escape.

15:40Because it's sort of a bit more kind of where I can kind of sit and spend time in the evening going through the archive, going through how do we develop every single fabric from scratch? How do we develop every shoe last from scratch? So that you cannot do in a month. That takes six months. Right. You said just now a lab. tell me more about that how is it a lab for you as you think about this lab in the wider d or universe yeah because i think we can run it over six months and then what while we're kind of testing like weird and wonderful things like it can be in bags it can be in shoes it can be in a last it could be bonding techniques it could be hands it can be so many aspects but you might learn something through that and then go actually we've we've opened all these looms now we might as well use that into men's like utilize it because now that we have it we can then we know that we can do that fabric so okay we'll put that in let's experiment with bags that make our gestural bags that make no sense in the everyday world but they're kind of an interesting object but there might be something in hardware or construction okay let's maybe try that into it so for me it's more kind of a thought process that i think can be interesting it feels to me like you've always kind of worked that way never with these kind of resources like you've always had this approach of like doing something quite experimental and then somehow maybe it turns into something that the thing that sells yeah but i think what is because you're in a weird way you're kind of like this allows in a weird way two blocks of continuity throughout the year those two six month blocks where inside of that you have like two men's you've got two pre-collections you've got two ready-to-wear collections and then you have pre-falls and capsules so in a weird way it kind For me, this becomes the backbone of the brand.

17:42And then it then breaks up the creative cycle. And that's why I think, for me, it's sort of going into next year. When this comes out, it will be next year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. For me, it's sort of nice to kind of start. I like to start a year as a year. Because in a weird way, I came in midway in the year. and it's really nice to go coat this is going to be like men's then couture then the woman's then it'll be um the resort then it will be the woman's it means i can go through the cycle again yeah but with fabrics are mine or shoe lasser are you know like you're trying to build your own library but what you realize when you're in a house like dior you want to get them so that they're long-term things.

18:38I want them, you know, I think, in the way I had to start from nothing. Here I'm coming in on like, everyone has like a vision of Dior. Do you know what I mean? And that's this whole thing about like, how much do you think about what people outside this bubble want? And how much do you feel like kind of confined by the archive? right and how much do you lean into your own creative instincts i think for me i think i had two months of this year where i was just like it was like kind of being in a kind of sound cooker of information you have like you're a looking at the business you're b looking at like what you want to bring to it you're kind of closing off a chapter in um in a brand that or 11 years, I had rebranded and re-changed JW Oneson.

19:34So you were trying to like put all these kind of components together. And at the same time, I was trying to think, what do I do in Dior that ultimately creates a blank space? And that's what the shows were about. It was to try to kind of propose a question to myself and pose a question to the audience, which is like well what do we see Dior as you know because I think as a designer I will build a vibe or a kind of culture around a brand but then everything will be different you know they will have bags you will have core product that will build the business but the energy of each show has to be a different energy and I think when you're in a big machine you're trying to work out like how do you get the system to work around that when it was doing more of a um a singular kind of look so you're trying to go okay well i want couture to go this way and i want men's go that way and i want so that but they all also have to be linked linked yeah so you're trying to work out how do you cross pollinate all this so there is a language that is built so and i think it takes time i think that i think that's what i realized with noise today is that I know what is right because that's why I'm here to do the job.

20:56And you have to kind of in the morning remind yourself that you have to take the journey that is right for the brand that you're in, not for what is needed. It's very easy to hype something, but I think when you're dealing with structure and you're dealing with collection planning and you have to deal with that. Yeah. Because that is the real part. That's the realism. That's the stuff that no one wants to know about. But ultimately, if you don't, then you will have that bite you on the other side if you don't. So I'm trying to kind of, with Delphine, work, like, put down, like, concrete blocks.

21:32You know, some will end up being sand, and then you'll have to rebuild it. But you're trying to build solid platforms, like industrialization, you know, different manufacturing. you know Delphine myself we can bring a lot more knowledge on bags whereas this is ready to warehouse a bag brand you know so it's sort of I'm doing the reverse of what Loewe was Loewe was a bag bag I'm putting fashion culture in this is me putting bags into something which has a huge fashion culture so it's and it's a learning experience yeah I mean so when we were looking just now I was I mean maybe you can you can just kind of walk us through the different elements because there were as I expected a whole bunch of looks yeah but alongside all of those looks and some of the processes that you you walked me through there were also one-of-a-kind pieces there were bags there was jewelry like the universe of couture you've expanded it for what at Dior in a way I was trying to think of like like when I was younger I was always there was these like books which were on designers little small books you get in libraries and I was always obsessed by like Jean-Paul Gaultier, when he would do like a couture show, it would be like, it was like an entire theme.

22:49And it was like, you nearly had to buy the entire look to get the vibe. It was like bracelets and shoes and bags and hats and mittens. And I was thinking like, in a weird way, you're kind of set, you know, in couture today, there is only so many people in the world can buy couture. And this is not, this is not a secret. Do you know what I mean? This is sort of, there's always a pinnacle. There's always a pinnacle in life. So for me, it was like, well, how do I get the same excitement of myself looking at couture of, like, say something like Gautier, where it's like, it's everything. You believe in the editorial character.

23:25You know, it's sort of like, it's multiple components. Or it's just a dress, you know. So that's why I was like, how do we do bags of couture? How do we do jewelry in couture? So like, for example, in jewelry, I wanted to look at this idea of like using technology and looking at powder coating onto enamel, onto aluminum, and then using found objects or precious things like we have meteorites that were found in Argentina. And then those are going to be mounted onto like carbonized silver. So it's like looking at technology and then something in the outer world that we have no idea what's happening.

24:08But then you have like Roman cameos that are then mounted on to a thing. Or you have portrait miniatures, you know, that are then recombined. So that was like something where I thought, okay, well, if you're going to buy a piece of couture jewelry, it should have some sort of like story behind it. Do you know what I mean? It's sort of like, I'd never touched a meteorite. Here was meteorites. We're going to use it. You know, it's sort of, it has like a kind of a talking point or like something you're kind of like curiosity. And it's still precious because I don't know about the availability of meteorites, but like it feels like very, very rare.

24:45They're rare, but they're not as crazy. Like some of them can be if they're like this big. But when they're this small, it's, you know, it's not so bad. And I quite like that it's sort of like there is a childlike curiosity in the idea. It's like, I remember as a kid, you used to get these magazines where you get like stones in them each month. Then you would like, you buy the magazine, it would come with like a stone in it. And then you would like collect all the stones. So it was like, for me, it was like, that was what jewelry was going to be about. Like, you know, like all these kind of like antiquities reformed into something.

25:19And then bags became split into two parts. One was going to, is to do with like, what is upcycling in a couture way? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is that? So it's like the reusing of raw material is one. Then there's like looking at 18th century or 16th century French fabrics found where every single piece we have, like when you buy the bag, you get the history of that piece of fabric, what mill it was made in, if it was made in Lille, if it was made in like a certain type of loom. So each bag comes with a kind of like a list of components of like the history of that textile. It's the provenance basically.

25:59And I think in a weird way, that's what I want to bring to it. It's like, that's what I, when I buy a piece of art or I buy a ceramic, you're trying to find newness in something that is old or you're collecting something in period. So it was, how do you merge that? So it's sort of like, and we might learn something through industrialization and hand make of say the Lady Dior, where we're kind of like, oh, we're going to take this textile and we're going to recondition it. What can that be in the bigger ecosystem of the brand? Start small and work out bigger, you know? So that was a kind of like take on accessories.

26:38And then, you know, shoes for me, I wanted complete new lasts from scratch, like where it was like, we're going to like. meticulously spend six months until we get that incredible curved heel that we saw yeah and it was like for me Dior like you have Vivier who does these amazing shoes and I've always been obsessing he always has he had this leaned angled shoe and I was like well what happens if it was more modular if it was like the entire back of a shoe is a heel but that takes time you're trying to work out does it hold the body is there balance but you want it to be perfect so theoretically you know someone could buy just a couture shoe or just a piece of jewelry or just one of those upcycled yeah bags and i think there's a way then that you can enter couture on different levels do you mean some people don't want an entire dress yeah you know some people want to have like an object that means you know i was trying to work out how i would buy it and i was thinking i would want like a really nice bracelet or i would want you know what would i as a guy want from it and i think this was the kind of thinking which was more about this like kind of eccentricities within couture and this idea of the nuance of it we'll be right back with more on the bof podcast

28:08So another big change that you're making is with the interaction with clients and beyond. How much did you think about the couture client as you did this? Did you meet anybody? I went and met some of the biggest clients I have. And I just got back from China and I met some more there. I met some in America. and I have been kind of like working out who else do I want to attract to the brand as well. And it was just interesting to kind of think of different, like it was a different mindset than I was like, you know, it was really interesting to speak to. How was it different? Because they want it, it's either they want it for occasion.

28:52A specific occasion. And they're thinking in advance, they're like, oh, well, I'm going to this thing and I think this would be. or you've got people who actually just collect clothing, who are fascinated in the history of fashion and just collect clothing. And then there's newer people who have just started to, like it's like being part of a world. Like they go in to do a fitting and they meet the atelier. It's a whole kind of process. And the interesting thing, on the first week of working here, I was when I went to the atelier I was like they were remaking dresses like from like 57 or like the first Dior show or and I was like they must be for the museum no no the amazing thing at Dior it does we will remake those dresses for clients you can order a dress from a show could be 20 years ago 30 years ago and we will make it for you still to this day wow which i and and at the same time we will repair those dresses right so it's so is that a bit liberating in a way because if someone wants that archival yeah thing that you don't have to recreate that you don't have to recreate it and at the same time it does give you a bit of a reality check yeah that these things do stand the test of time yeah you know and then And the way you're going to interact with clients and engage clients, like this is more than just a couture show happening at the Musée du Rodin.

30:26It's a, walk us through the whole thing. For me, the show is the silhouette, the idea, the fallacy, the dream. Like here is it in a, you know, 15 minute band, which is for a reduced audience because of capacity and ultimately it's a fashion show. After that, we then go to the, straight after the show, I go to the Villa Dior and I will set it up into cabinets and the client will be able to see every single component and it will be laid out in the Villa Dior. What is the Villa Dior? It's a space that they have for VIC clients and it's a place where you can kind of go there and get anything made.

31:07Okay, so this is a permanent space? Yeah, it's a permanent space. And what we've done is we've redone it more like a home setting. and it's going to be, but then it has like, you'll have all the jewelry encased. It will be more laid out like a kind of exhibition. So this is like the re-see in a way, but a much more elevated one. So it'll be every single detail or, you know, we will, we will introduce the clients over like two hours where we can introduce each product, tell them the things about. They can meet the people of the team so they can meet like Alberto or Juha or like all the guys. And will you be there?

31:42And I will be there and then we will kind of do the old school kind of like this is what this is about and this is why it is what it is we do that and then it will be x amount of days of selling and then in that period so we will have 11 looks will be then in the show venue so that will happen for clients so you have the show then we have the clients and then we have the final part which is the part that i'm most excited about, and it's the part that's new for Dior, is that the show venue will then turn into the Rodin. The show space will stay up, and it will then be turned into an exhibition, which will be on Magdalene Adondu, Christian Dior himself, and the new couture collection.

32:30We will then do with school groups, we will do with art students, we will do with general public. Anyone can go, it will be free. And what, do you sign up online or something? Yeah, and you just go and see it. Why did you want to add this third component, and why is it the thing you're most excited about? Because I think I was trying to kind of think about what I felt about couture before I got to Dior, which was like, why? And I was thinking that if you saw a dress that is taking more than 4 ,000 hours, that one person has meticulously put together, a photograph is never going to tell you that.

33:06you know you have to kind of see it and then i wanted to show my influence i wanted to show that magdalene is a huge inspiration for the show you will be able to see what we're doing with her in terms of bags and in terms of other things that we'll put on show and then showing from each time we will show from the archive different things so this one will focus on christian dior so it will have all the forms it will be magdalene and christian dior in conversation and what what I end up doing is kind of like a catalyst of that so that then you'll see the sketches of Magdalene you will see the sketches of Dior you will see the sketches of mine and all mixed together and then from that so this is just as important to me as the fashion show because I think it's where there's only so much you can see online and I think in a weird way I'm kind of inviting people who want to go and see it to see something physical because it may change your mind, you know.

34:07It might change your opinion of it, you know, because I think it's sort of... I think the great thing about Dior is Dior does a great exhibition. When I think of great exhibitions in fashion, Dior is very good at an exhibition. So why not exhibit something current, as opposed to waiting for a retrospective or something? Because I think it's sort of like, this is what clients are seeing, and this is what you're seeing in real time. Go and see it. Because now, because I think You know, it's like the opening dress that we were looking at, where you have like layers. It looks so simple as a structure.

34:44But when you realize that underneath is like hundreds of lines of tool that are all stitched together and then engineered in this way, you will see that in the flesh more than you will see in a flat image on the catwalk. The catwalk can be a bit of a trick. And I know because as a designer, I have had to use that trick. You can use the set as a trick. You can use casting as a trick. You can hide many things. You can sell people a kind of flashpoint. But the clothing is not right. No matter what you put around it, it will, no matter how much it, in the moment, we're so used to fashion right now as we do shows consume it and that's it and some people only consume that flat image and that's it yeah and it's kind of weirdly i was talking about it with someone a couple of weeks ago in real in depth over a bottle of wine um which is why i started in fashion what i loved about fashion when i was doing windows at prada was it you would watch a Prada show.

35:56And then we would have to work with like the team to come up with windows. And then you'd have to then foresight the windows coming. And in the beginning, you would look at the show and you'd be like, this is what is that? What is that? And then like you would be selling the current collection that we were trying to sell the current collection. Then you would be like, slowly the new collection was about to come in six months. And then you'd be like oh i want that now i think what has happened now is we have kind of gotten to this weird habit where we do shows and everything for impact and bam to kind of win people's talking ultimately or like we like we hate we like we hate but we don't digest anymore so we just say We kind of just...

36:43It's like nearly like that. You put it in your mouth and you spit it out. Yeah, it's like perfume. It's like, you know, like when at the end, like in the book, it gets eaten by everyone. But what I love about fashion for me was it's about the future. You create something, people take time, they distill it, it goes in store, and then you discover it again. So for me, this is a kind of a test, weirdly, to kind of see, does it help part of like local, or community ultimately to look at it in real time. Yeah. To maybe go, actually, it was actually different, but not everyone goes to the showroom. Yeah.

37:20Do you know what I mean? Well, this helps people, I guess they get that chance to digest it. It also makes me think of, you know, following your ready-to-wear show, there was that watch party. And I feel like there's this thing happening. I know Italian Vogue is doing more of this in Milan as well, where they're like, this idea of Fashion Week just being for insiders and the kind of outsiders get to look at it on social media there's this movement of like bringing more people in to see it the real bits of it because so much of it then just is consumed on the surface or understood at the surface but we don't go deeper yeah and i think i think this is what um i think the learning lesson for me in the process of like and i'm at fault too because i kind of i kind of go oh well loewe was like this it was just it was always but then you realize you were there for 11 years yeah so in a weird way i'm expecting 11 years in one year but at the same time the audience is expecting of it like tomorrow yeah and you're trying to grapple with where you want to go what is needed for the business where the audience is seeing it and then there comes a moment where you have to just go into the zen-like experience which is what i'd said earlier which is like i get up in the morning i know what i'm doing and it will be there will be good days and bad days and i think that's what you start to you start to get a thicker and thicker and thicker skin through the process because you have to because you have to always be thinking what is relevant in six months yeah not right now you know it's sort of i think this is the trick it's also like a really challenging time yeah for the fashion industry so i think offering some more texture and more depth helps people to understand or being real about it you know i feel like a fashion has this thing where i think the audience see me as a designer and you live this like you know you're a designer You turn up and it's like, I don't know what they think sometimes.

39:30But the reality of fashion today in the scale of fashion, the media pressure of fashion, the size of it, it's not 10 years ago. Fashion has grown like crazy. Maybe too much. And maybe. And maybe there might be a kind of recalibration. but at the same time the audience is nearly kind of like our approach only to hollywood we don't care we just want the end product yeah but at the same time i think we have to kind of um be more rational we have to kind of in a weird way as a system of designers and the brands as much as there is competition and there is like there will always be a sliding scale of things But at the same time, if we don't somehow unite behind it, change is inevitable.

40:24And I think we think change is just a new thing. Change has happened in fashion in big cycles like this before. The difference we have now is the media exposure on it is ginormous. Yeah. It is part of the popular conversation. Yeah. But we forget that because that's the whole point of fashion is to forget and keep going. Do you know what I mean? so I think it's sort of I think sometimes I I feel for so many designers because I I know what it's like to go through it and I do sometimes go there is moments where you go well we literally saw you take that deep exhale on Loic's video backstage because it's just so much right because I think I think for all designers in that season I have never it was nearly like it was the most bizarre moment of my life because it was like the anticipation of something that you're only starting on a journey of the audience is only just about going for it and you're trying and the pressure on it was it was that that kind of like release yeah because in the end as much as i have to be like the designer the like dry dry drive you in the end there is a moment where when you are finished it is that kind of like nearly handing in an exam you're like well you're a human right and i think i think in the online discourse around fashion and fashion designers and the fact that it's become part of popular culture part of what's lost is the fact that all of these things that people are saying all about all of these people yeah humans on like they're humans yeah and it's sometimes i know the pressure can be but it's kind of tense but i live of pressure this was a very different type of pressure and the good thing is it is the it's quite good because it's like behind you it's like kind of like it's like okay we just started so we can move on from like you know couture will be that still thing of the first of it and there will be a but at the same time it it means i can just get on with the job yeah you know because in a weird way it takes time for people to get used to things yeah do you mean like i remember when i did my first show at Loewe, people were so not sure about it.

42:41I definitely was not sure. I remember. But like, that took time. And it took time. And, you know, because that was a business that needed completely restructuring. And I think the bigger the brand, you realize it is not just a designer. There is so many components. There's the people, there's the windows, there's the CEO, there's the finance person, there's a merchant. You know, I was looking at this thing where it's like, you know, one granny which I think is really good because they're kind of like they're celebrating the people yeah all of that that's Olya's thing she does they're recognizing all the talent all the talent yeah but at the same time I was thinking to myself like the other people that are part of that is like the people do the window yeah and the people do the merchandising and so they're number crunching it it may not be creative but they work in a creative business they have to tried to work out how to make a designer's dream come true yeah and it's sort of like that's where i think to pull the veil down you have to do it in all categories because a fashion show is not just me i am just the conductor i've said this throughout my entire career and every single person can have their own transparency on it but you have to do that equally across it's that proverbial it takes a village right it takes a village it takes a lot of people the other thing i just wanted to touch on really quickly is what's really interesting is for the first time the dior men's show and the dior couture show are going to happen in the same space yeah was that out of like pragmatism that you did that is it like you know are we trying to be more budget conscious i don't think it was it was it wasn't to do about budget it was more to do about like why why in one week should we make 2 000 chairs yeah why don't we just make a thousand chairs and use them both right two different contexts yeah i think it was just trying to work out ways to focus utilize building a tent that the manpower that goes into it in a weird way like a theater you do act one act two and then act three because there's exhibition so you take it down and it kind of unfolds I think it's very important that we are all dealing with in every single company no matter if it's fashion or not the environmental part of it shows that we do depending on where they are all that gets reused into the windows and you know the ceiling for couture will then go to Venice for fine jewellery so a lot of it's going to get reused.

45:17Yeah, because the amount of work that goes into it, like to make a chrome chair, it takes six months to get it done. You know, like it's like a piece of furniture. Like it's sort of like, you know, like with the men's, the chairs that we're using in this are the chairs that we've been using for the last two shows. They've just been now chromed. Okay. So that already I've been able to get, I will get four shows out of one chair. Right. Whereas in the passed, it would have been... It would have been like, bye-bye. Right. You know, so I think this is where I think each thing has to be a learning.

45:53When you learn something, then you put it into the system, and it becomes part of your vocabulary. And I think as much as everyone else is looking at it, I am thinking about that every day. Like, you know, what do I do to try to make it cost-efficient? What am I thinking to do where it's environmentally friendly? How can I get more like younger people involved you know i mean like for me like i've always believed inside the teams especially in the web and especially here it's like the younger the talent the more opportunity the more that younger talent can learn inside a brand like i did then the better this industry will become so for me dior is is such a big kind of metropolis that it can have So many aspects of that.

46:43And this takes time. And that's what I find exciting the most is that you have to kind of set out your own kind of private vision for the future. And then you cannot do it overnight. You have to slowly kind of be like, okay, we're going to sort this out and then we're going to get this. And if it doesn't happen this season, we'll get it next season. You know, I think if we take that approach, then I think we can get to a better solution in the end. And I think with like, when I look back at my time at Loewe, I think it's a beautiful brand. No matter if I was there or not, it's a beautiful brand.

47:20And I think Dior has that, and you've got to kind of take it on to the future again. And you probably didn't know when you started at Loewe where it would end up. So this is a journey, right? I have no idea. And I think that's what I love about what I do. I think that's what all designers love. In the end, it is about creation. But I have to have the responsibility to the thousands of people who work here to make sure it works. Do you know what I mean? So I have to kind of, it's a balancing act. So it's sort of like you're trying to kind of make sure that the customer that is existing, who is loyal to the brand, which has evolved over the years, meets with my new aesthetic, and you don't want it to be like hot and cold water.

48:11You know, I always have this like vision of like when I started this brand and then I started to work in it. There's always this like Instagram video of like salt water and like natural water meeting and how they don't mix. You don't want that in store. Yeah, so like you have to be able to cater to the current client base, which is why those meetings you had are important, but you're also trying to cater to new clients who are trying to big into the business. That's a fine balance, right? It's a fine balance. So you're trying to keep people like slightly entertained. You're trying to keep this, but you have to do that.

48:45The brand, Dior is not the size of Loewe. Yeah. It is, you know, Dior is a big machine and it has a big audience that expects certain things from a brand's heritage, you know? So it's very grounding, the process, I think, you know, because everything is a learning experience. And I think that can be tough on days, as I am only human, but at the same time, it is incredibly rewarding because you're kind of like, you know, it's a couture. I've never worked at the tillier like that. I've done that in bags with the tilliers of that skill, but in clothing, I had a very good atelier, but this is a kind of different scale.

49:32So let's go back to the very beginning, because when you walked in to the atelier, you had a meeting with John Galliano, and he brought some cyclamen flowers in. Tell us that story for... So I had finished the women's collection on a week before the show because of the noise and the nervousness of the whole thing. I had asked Olivier, do you think John would come to see the collection before I go and do press previews? I would like him to see it because when I was at university, he was like a hero, like he instilled to this day as a hero. And he is Dior in the public imagination, still to this day, you know, because what he built was like this big in the kind of rebirth of fashion.

50:27Because in a weird way, after the 80s, fashion then suddenly became part of the popular culture again. You know, like it kind of just ballooned. So I was like, would he come? Anyway, and John very kindly agreed to coming. And when he turned up, I've only met him twice in my life. First when I joined Leufe and then here. And he came with his wonderful boyfriend and... Alexei. Alexei. And they... turned up and I just thought it was like, I really loved him being, even though this is not the building he was in, I loved him being back in Dior. Do you know what I mean? I, you know, for me, it was just like, it was like, it was like a kind of like, I felt like it was like, oh my, full circle moment.

51:15It was a full circle moment of being like a student and then looking up to him and still to this day look up to him. And then he came with these two bunches of wild cyclamen that he had kind of tied black ribbon around, and they were perfect. And then he had this bag of food from Tesco, so like sweets and crisps and Doritos and things like that for the team. And we had this great chat, and it was a very kind of calming process in something where you're kind of like walking into something there's not many people would understand bar him and i because of these cyclamen i just i found them the most i love wild cyclamen when you go at like a you know about two months ago you will see it all underneath the forest floor and it's a plant that always reminds me of my childhood and then he he brought them and then they went into these two things.

52:18I was like, they became this sort of like talismanic kind of thing that I was like, I'm very superstitious. And I was like, okay, that is the starting point for this collection as a kind of pink and black, you know? It was like, it was nearly like a kind of like meant to be. And then it became the ceiling of the entire show So like that. The show is the under of a forest where they grow. It's all a mirror. The Invitation is an entire remake of the posy in a box, but real. The headpieces are where like we have embroidered all the flowers individually by hand. So they're like these kind of tufts.

53:03They are the gift. And then you would put it on because what I love about John is that it is emotional. everything is like a kind of an emotional he is when i've ever received flowers the best flowers are from giangaliana they are like perfect like everything is like there is an etiquette and there is a kindness and i was just so that's where it all started and i think that's amazing it's like 360 for myself and it's and it's sort of um and when you meet a hero like that in the job that he did when you go to the museum and you see and every single person probably listening you know he changed fashion and and i want i wanted to bring him back in and you know you need the advice from someone like that especially in a house like duor what Did he give you any advice?

54:02The one line that I think was, because John is incredibly intelligent, was, the more that you love Dior, the brand, the more it will give you back. Interesting. What do you think he meant by that? I think it's the more that you love the people in it, the more that you give into it, the more it will give you, it will tell you what to do. and I think I do use that like and sometimes you you need these little like you need these little tidbits of advice from people because it is daunting and you need these little things to kind of make you feel okay I am going in the right direction or maybe I'm not you know it's sort of I needed to do that you know sometimes you have to do these certain things to kind of actually just to be in reality.

54:56You know, it's sort of like when you have this like mountain of a creative like Galliano, it is better to kind of confront it and be at one with it than kind of be petrified of it, you know? And for me, Dior, as much as Christian Dior started the brand, Dior for me, when I was young, was John Galliano. So, and I think for a lot of people, people it is you know so it was humbling in a it's a really beautiful moment and it's a beautiful sentiment and it feels like you have put a ton of love into this yeah and you've made it accessible to so many more people than would normally have been able to experience your couture so i can't wait to see the show i can't wait to see it all come to life i'm so grateful that you shared so much of that with me before the show.

55:53And by the time this conversation comes out, the collection will have been out in the world. But yeah, I can't wait to see it. Congratulations. Thank you very much for coming. All right. Thank you. The BOF Podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.