Kiki McDonough on Changing How Women Buy and Wear Jewellery

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF podcast. It's Friday, October 3rd. Raised in a family of antique jewelry specialists, Kiki McDonough launched her namesake brand in 1985, with accessible prices and jewelry pieces women could wear anywhere. Her early crystal and bow designs ended up in the V &A, while her growing client list came to include members of the royal family. And over time, she helped to normalize women buying jewelry for themselves. When I first started the business, a man would come in and buy a piece of jewelry for his wife. A couple of years later, the man and the wife come in together and she says, oh, I really love that.

0:47And he goes, OK. And then he rings up and he comes in to get it. And then a woman will come in and say, I love those. I'll ring my husband. Now it's just come in. I need a pair of earrings for my daughter's wedding. Let me have a look. This week on the BOF podcast, Kiki joins me to reflect on resilience through recessions and a pandemic, the enduring appeal of colored gemstones, and why jewelry's longevity and everyday joy set it apart in a challenged luxury sector. Here's Kiki McDonough on the BOF podcast. Well, good afternoon, Kiki McDonough. Welcome to the BOF podcast. Thank you. You're officially the first person to come and join us in the BOF offices to record.

1:34So we're, It's a bit of an experiment today. We're testing out our new equipment here so we can do more of these in person. But you and I have never met before. So this is going to be as informative and educational for me, hopefully, as it is for all of the people listening. I guess I want to start with your family history. You know, everything that I've read about you kind of starts with the fact that you're a fifth generation. generation I am yes I am my father and grandfather great-grandfather and back we go dealt in antique jewelry my father was the world expert in English silver and Georgian jewelry and in those days museums used to come over with a piece where they wanted him to talk about it and give a provenance and all that and so I was brought up with jewelry and I think one of the reasons why I, when I started the business, I wasn't fearful of it.

2:33I didn't have that thing of a bell on the door and, you know, morgany cabinets and burgundy carpets and men standing around looking real stiff because that's where daddy worked, you know. I didn't have that scary thing, which I think helped me hugely because when I first started, I hadn't the faintest clue what I was doing. Right. Right. But when you were young, surrounded by this kind of very rarefied world, did it appeal to you personally or do you feel like this was destiny and you were just meant to do it because you were born into it? No, I think really it was part of family life. It wasn't anything special.

3:12I mean, my father used to bring the odd piece home and take it out of his jacket pocket and slide it down the dining room table, you know, like a cowboy does with beer on a bar. and he said, Kiki, what do you think of this? And I'd say, oh, it's really beautiful and everything, and give it back. But then the telephone would ring, and I'd say, Kiki, it's for you. And, you know, I'd completely forget about it. I think it was so part of family life, jewellery, that maybe somewhere in my bones it is there. It was inevitable. I'm not sure it was inevitable, actually, at all, but it was certainly there.

3:45And as I will tell you how I started, somebody saw something in me that I didn't. So how did you start then? Like there was a certain stage at which, you know, a young person makes a decision about how they're going to employ their talents and gifts and energy. You know, what was it? At what stage did you decide, OK, this is this is my. Well, I was 30 when I started the business, which is quite late, really, I think, if you're starting a business. And before that, I'd been a secretary and I didn't call them PAs then. They were always secretary, secretary, secretary, secretary. And my CV was longer than the Bible.

4:21I mean, it was just, you know, I used to get very bored after a year. I thought, well, I've mastered this. I've done this. So now let's find something else. I didn't have that feeling that I would continue doing something. So it wasn't a very impressive career, I have to say, so far. And then a friend of mine who owned an antique jewellery in Bond Street rang me up one day and said, you know, I've got a proposal to put to you. Do you want to come talk to me about it? And I thought, well, he probably wanted a secretary as well. So off I went and he said, you know, I want to start selling modern jewellery.

4:50And I said, well, it's a really good idea, actually, because, you know, women were beginning to earn a little bit more. And, you know, they were beginning to look around. And they had fake jewelry, beginning to look around, but they couldn't afford the high-end stuff, which was really all there was then. And I said, it was a really good idea. And I literally picked up my bag to go, you know. And he said, no, no, I want you to do it. And I honestly, I fell through the floor. I said, what are you talking about? You must be mad. And he said, no, no, I think you can do it. And I mean, I had to go home and recover.

5:23I really did. And I thought about it for a couple of days. And David McDonough, who I was married to at the time, said to me, you can do it. You definitely can do it. And I was thinking, what is wrong with everyone, you know? So what was it? Like, why, how did you not? You're born into this industry. You know, you were surrounded by jewelry. But the idea, like, maybe you can tell us what year it was and helps us to understand kind of. Yeah, so it was 1985. Okay. And the idea of a woman being at the helm of a modern jewellery business was just completely unthinkable? Well, pretty unthinkable, I think.

6:03Mostly, it was Bond Street. The whole of Bond Street was men. I mean, there weren't any, which was always a thing that slightly puzzled me because they're choosing jewellery for women to wear. And surely women should be choosing jewellery for women to wear because they'd have a, but, you know, it was literally on the periphery. I just thought, oh, well, whatever. And then I thought, well, I'd like to give this a try. And it was quite a strange time because we were on the cusp of things changing. It was 1985. The year after Margaret Thatcher. Exactly. And there was an atmosphere in the country, which is quite difficult to describe unless you were there, but it was full of can-do.

6:42You know, I don't know if she was on our side or not, but it came across that there was an atmosphere in the 80s that just give it a go you know just fly by the seat of your pants see what happens you can do it we're behind you I don't know whether they were or not but you know you can do it and I think that was what was happening really and things were changing quite fast in the 80s and I think probably if it hadn't been for that I might have actually said no I can't do this and and good luck and find somebody else I think so it all sort of fell into place really. So you decide maybe somewhat grudgingly a bit hesitant about diving in like where did you go from there I mean what were your first pieces and like how did you start thinking about what you wanted to offer into the market as women were starting to take more of a decision-making role?

7:31Certainly I thought the prices should be under a thousand it should be sort of 95 pounds to 950 and that's where I started but I started with a blank piece of paper and a pencil and actually I felt incredibly foolish you know I'm sitting there thinking my goodness what have I done and I'm you know this is just as often anyway um Nigel Milne who's this friend of mine who asked me to do it had a brooch in his cabinet which was round crystal a diamond set bow in the middle and pearls around the outside and it had always caught my eye for some reason and I thought well what I could do is cut the crystal into a heart put a bow on top make them in different sizes the bows some with dumb and some without anyway I got this manufacturer from Birmingham to come up and have a look and he looked at the piece of paper and he said well I'm not sure these are gonna sell and I said well and I burst out laughing I don't know I think I was just you know slightly crazy then I burst out laughing I said no I don't think they will either.

8:32And anyway, he started laughing and he said, go on, I'll take a punt. And they're now in the V &A. Wow. Extraordinary, really. I mean, no one's more surprised than me, I can tell you. With hindsight, why do you think that became something that people wanted? Well, I think at the time, I think they sold for, if my memory serves incorrectly, something like£450, I think, because I think there was a market. There was a market, You know, people had done the sort of, you know, I mean, I used to wear Butler and Wilson all the time in my early 20s. But I think women were looking for something else or they were open to wearing something else.

9:12So there was Butler and Wilson and there was Cartier and others. But there wasn't really anything in between. And I think women had suddenly started to think about that. I mean, it was all a little bit sort of vague at the time, you know, but it was there. I think it was there and it was waiting to happen. And I think I was probably right place at the right time. So one of the things you became known for was serving the royal family. So how do you go from doing like a 450 pound, you know. It does seem a strange journey. Yeah, like a little bow with the crystal and whatnot, to kind of designing for multiple generations of the royal family, and most especially Princess Diana.

10:00Yes, I wanted to design jewellery for women to buy and wear for themselves, to take that decision themselves. That's what they wanted, those earrings. They were going to wear them, and they could wear them sort of anywhere, really. I wasn't into too heavy stuff for the evening. So I think my jewellery is not cutting edge, edgy, and it's not bling, but it's very easy, pretty jewellery to wear. And you can wear it during the day, in the evening. And bearing in mind the royal family have a huge amount of royal jewels, which are beautiful, but you can't walk around them wearing them anymore. Or, you know, I mean, if you see how they dress, you know, sometimes they're in jeans or sometimes in their own dress or whatever.

10:46And I think it's just very easy jewelry to wear, which was the decision I made when I started. And in a way, the ease of wearing that jewelry, whether you're an HRH or you're, you know, a successful career woman, there's a consistency there about the kinds of things that women in particular might want to wear in everyday life. Yes, I think so. I think, and also times were changing. You know, there was, people were getting a little bit more casual. Certainly a lot of the jewellery I designed was from my lifestyle. You know, I was, obviously I went to parties like lots of other people. I went to dinner, I went to contemplate, I went to watch my children play football, you know.

11:27So I think times were gradually changing out of that, that's for evening and that's for day and nothing, you know, you can't veer away from that and it became yeah it's just you know changed changing so and I it was really nice to see actually because jewelry should be loved and worn and appreciated it should put a spring in your step make life more joyful and if you've just got a set thing where you wear that for lunch and you're going to wear that for dinner it sort of rather takes the shine off it really we'll be right back with more on the bof podcast

12:10the other thing that I think is quite interesting because you know I've grown up in a era when the idea of a woman buying her own jewelry was totally normal but like in the time that you're talking about this was considered novel or maybe even radical in some respects because you know in the past you know jewelry was always purchased by a man for a woman you know how did you convince both women and men that you know a woman buying her own jewelry is modern yeah as well i think clothes had got more expensive so you know people were spending a little bit more on their clothes and their handbags and their shoes so jewelry in that sort of middle of the market the perception of that jewelry changed.

12:56I mean, in the beginning, certainly a man would come in. When I first started the business, a man would come in and buy a piece of jewelry for his wife. A couple of years later, the man and the wife come in together and she says, oh, I really love that. And he goes, okay. And then he rings up and he comes in to get it. And then a woman will come in and say, I love those. I'll ring my husband. Then after Big Bang, when the husbands never came home because it was just so busy. Big Bang, for those listening who don't know what it is, what's big bang well big bang was when um the city changed hugely and it became much much more competitive and uh men had to work men and women very few women then i think in the city but um they had to stay on till 10 o 'clock at night and the women would say well there's no point in telling my husband he'll never make it before you close so i'll buy them myself and that then started the trend and i think men i did get a few men saying to me oh i can't buy my wife jewelry anymore and i said listen it makes her happy you know it's better to have a happy wife buying her own jewelry and so how do you that idea of like self-purchase how do you think that's evolved today now it's just a come in i need a pair of earrings for my daughter's wedding let me have a look i know oh i think those would be lovely those are perfect and that's the end there's no idea of a man being involved at all none at all no i mean i think maybe when you're spending huge sums of money then that's maybe different but then i've got women who are earning quite a lot clients who are earning a lot of money and you know if they wanted some pair of dharma earrings they buy themselves a pair of dharma earrings so yeah i think it's all changed and as far as i'm concerned i'm just happy that people are wearing jewelry and not dictated by that for lunch and that for dinner you know just getting on and wearing it and enjoying it because that's what it's there for.

14:46In fact, jewellery has been probably the highest performing category in the luxury sector over the last few years. It's exploded. Yeah, which is something that I wanted to talk to you about, because for those of us who maybe follow the fashion industry more closely, there's a lot of talk about market contraction and inflated prices and declining quality. I mean, And what do you think it is about fine jewellery that has made this category more resilient at a time now in a post-COVID environment where people are being a bit more discriminating about where they spend? Why does jewellery, fine jewellery in particular, stand out?

15:30Well, first of all, I think it has longevity. And you can buy yourself a very expensive dress, which is lovely. You know, nothing better than a lovely expensive dress. but it probably doesn't have the longevity that jewellery does that's the first thing secondly i think it's it does put a spring in your step and you can wear a pretty dress you wear it a couple of times and it's fine and that's lovely and people say you know what a pretty dress but then you put on a pair of earrings that are really special or and brilliant you go places and people go i love your earrings and by that stage they're ignoring the dress where they will always say they love your earrings and I think that's because of the longevity and I've got lots of women now whose children are wearing the jewelry they bought from me you know 15 years ago whereas I don't think they'd be wearing their mother's dresses yeah there is something timeless and intergenerational about a jewelry purchase which isn't always true with fashion yeah I think so I think a lot I mean I know I've got friends who've got daughters who need to borrow a cardigan or they borrow, you know, I don't know, borrow a cardigan, borrow a skirt or something, but it's not, they love borrowing the jewellery.

16:44I mean, I remember my mother, I mean, I was quite young, but I remember my mother's jewellery almost more than I remember her clothes. I mean, she was incredibly chic. She was French and she was incredibly chic, but I remember her jewellery. And I mean, I can describe a couple of her dresses probably if pushed, but it's her jewelry I remember. And that's nothing to do with my father or his business or anything. It's just, I don't know, it's just, yeah, I think you remember it. So as someone who's kind of operating in a market now, which is much more competitive, there's like big global brands like Cartier and Tiffany and others.

17:26What do you think is the way a client typically comes into contact with a piece of jewelry that they decide they'd like to purchase? Like what's that discovery process or journey that the customer goes on before they show up in your shop and say, you know, I want that? Well, I think certainly now the brand is very well known and it's sort of worldwide. We, you know, we export jewelry all over the world. So it has a provenance, if you like. So people might easily go to Cartier and go to it. But what they won't find there is my stamp and that personality, I think, which my jewellery has. You know, people are beginning to recognize that that's a kiki piece.

18:12So what is it? What makes a kiki piece? How do I recognize it? My great love are the gemstones. Colored gemstones. Colored gemstones. So not rubies, sapphires and emeralds. and I love, absolutely love all the peridots and citrines and fire opals and all those... Tanzanites. Tanzanites and all those gemstones. And I started selling them, I mean, 35 years ago I was selling them and, you know, it was a really hard slog. You had to make people understand that, you know, having those gorgeous colours next to your face is something special. Yeah, so that's really why I think you might recognize peace of mind if it's got one of those colored gemstones.

18:58I'm curious to talk to you about the current policy tax kind of government landscape in the UK and how that's impacted. Which tax are you talking about? Multiple taxes. So like on the one hand, you have, you know, the VAT refund, which has been removed. And on the other hand, you have additional taxes that have been placed on non-DOMs, many of whom are leaving the UK. I mean, how is this all kind of impacting the luxury market here in the UK? Well, I think it's impacting everything. I don't think it's just the luxury market. I mean, if you think the VAT, for example, I mean, I think it was Rishi Sunak when he was chancellor who did that.

19:39And to me, that was the most extraordinary thing ever. Extraordinarily bad? Bad thing ever. It was like signs saying, if you want 20 % off anything, then I would go to Paris and Milan because that's where you're going to get it. And so they went to Paris and Milan. It was absolutely the most extraordinary thing I've ever seen. So that's been damaging. I think the national insurance has been immensely damaging. And that has a knock-on effect. You may think that, for example, the VAT is a luxury thing only. But, you know, those people who come and maybe buy a pair of my earrings, they then stay in a hotel.

20:17They then go to another shop and buy themselves some, I don't know, some boots or something. I don't know. And then they'll go and stay. Then they'll go to Edinburgh. And then they'll stay up there and they'll have a sightseeing around there. You know, everybody loses out. So when you said national insurance. Yes. What did you mean national insurance? So the national insurance is the tax that you have the employers to pay extra tax. Yeah, they've had to pay extra tax. Exactly. And I mean, that was a recipe for disaster because people have lost their jobs all over the place. And I think that's terribly sad.

20:49I think it's not a good look. And on top of that now, there's, you know, additional issue for kind of wealthy customers that actually live in the UK, which is a lot of people are fleeing to Milan or Dubai or other more tax friendly jurisdictions. Because, you know, have you noticed an impact of all of these? I think London has noticed that impact. You know, they're probably not investing here. They're not using our goods and services. They're not shopping in our shops. They're not buying a car. then I mean I think it's yeah I think it's huge but obviously the government thought that was a good idea so what can you do so if you were whispering into the ear of the current chancellor Rachel Reeves and advising her on what you think is the right tax policy when it comes to some of these decisions are making keeping in mind also there's a very complicated fiscal situation here I mean what would you tell her go and work in a business for six months and learn your trade there and then go and be chancellor because business is what grows the economy it isn't government governments have to lay the foundations for businesses to grow the economy and they're not so i'd go and work in a business for six months and have a good lesson on how to do it so this year marks 40 years yeah 40 years yes that's pretty amazing congratulations thank you i'm curious, you know, if you launched in 1985, when very few women were launching their own businesses, what have you learned as a entrepreneur, and specifically as a female entrepreneur, along these 40 years?

22:27What barriers did you face? What, you know, maybe superpowers did you have as a woman that enabled you to navigate this journey? Well, I think I mean, looking back, It's interesting because there's a book being written about Kiki McDonagh. Are you writing the book or someone else's own? No, they've done it and it's out. Okay. It's on Amazon, actually. But I think that's been a very interesting journey for me, the book, because I always look forward. I very rarely look back. But for the book, I had to look back. I had to look back at the last 40 years and see, you know, what it took and how and when and why.

23:01And I think resilience is where I mean, I've done two recessions, a pandemic and 10 prime ministers. And I think resilience, a sense of humor, and a determination not to let them get you down. And where do you find like, it's, it's, it's one thing to say resilience. It's another thing to be resilient. I think you have it in your DNA. You must have it in your DNA. And I think I get it from my mother, my French mother. I don't think you can teach someone resilience. But resilience coupled with a sense of humour, which I'd like to think I have, is a great combination, I think. Because, you know, when something bad happens, you go, oh, my God.

23:51And then you just think, well, what can we do? and we all you know you just have a laugh and say right let's see if we can put it right there's no point in going into a spiral of decline because that'll be the end you know so you have to sort of balance resilience sense of humor and common sense really i think common sense is also very very important so as you look back for a very short period of time yeah because you don't like to look back yeah i don't like that now as you look ahead yeah you know how do you think about securing the future of the company? I mean, you won't be able to run it forever.

24:25How are you thinking about succession? And I think that this is a brand that you established 40 years ago. What do you do to keep it alive 40 years from now? Well, I think 40 years from now, me being in charge is optimistic, I have to say. I think it's a very well-known brand now. And there was originally a Mr. Cartier and a Mr. Van Cleef and a Mr. Somebody Else and a Mr. Somebody Else. So, you know, it has got longevity. It has got a fantastic reputation. And I actually don't believe that anyone is indispensable. I think there are plenty of incredibly talented people out there. And coming up, obviously, in their 30s and 40s and 50s as well, I think 50s is a really good age.

25:11So I think it has longevity. And as I say, I'm certain I'm not indispensable. Do you have any advice for a new, young, entrepreneurial, fine jewelry aficionado who's looking to start their own company today? Like, how would you advise them? So, well, I'm a business mentor for the King's Trust, which was the Prince's Trust of the King's Trust. And I am mentoring a girl now who has just started her business. So what do you say to her? Well, she's incredibly enthusiastic, which is terribly important in the beginning, because, you know, a lot of things are thrown at you when you start a business. And you have to have that enthusiasm and that energy to combat those hurdles.

25:56So I tell her to pace herself. It's so easy when you've got some money and you've maybe borrowed it from the bank or, you know, somebody's given you a bit of investment. Right. Let's do this. Let's do that. And then calm down, calm down and think carefully about what you're going to do with the money and how you're going to preserve it. And my father said to me when I said I was setting up the business, he didn't say anything, actually. The only thing he said was look after the pennies because the pounds look after themselves. And it's more of a, you know, look after those things, the smaller things, because that means the bigger things will be fine.

26:32so I think it's terribly important not to spend the money immediately to think about what you're going to do and if you've got a product that you want to I mean even if it's jewelry test it on a few people build a website after you've tested it on a few people because if no one likes it you spend all the money on the website and you know no one's going to buy it and yeah I mean that it is very different because of course I never had the internet or social media Instagram Facebook or any of those things when I started there was only word of mouth and the press and that was it there was no other way of getting your name out there and I don't know whether that was easier and more relaxing than now when you've got everything coming at you from all sides so I think maybe I was lucky actually it was a better time that and then of course the internet started and it changed the face of everything online shopping and really changed everything and what do you advise this young mentee of yours to do when everything starts to go wrong like when well if you're careful this is why i always say start slowly if you're careful less things will go wrong because you've thought about things and you're you're pacing yourself and you're doing it gradually i mean you know i've actually probably done it very gradually because i had children in um the 90s so and i wanted to be with them and people used to say to me how many shops have you got and I say I've got one shop and two children so that I had able to spend some time with them when they were younger for me it was important to do it build it slowly and surely because I have had the best time and I think it's because I haven't put so much pressure on myself you know people saying you know how many shops are you going to get Kiki how many of you and I go no I'm fine I'm really enjoying it I've really loved the last 40 years and feel extremely privileged to have had that start.

28:25So a small, sustainable, profitable business is just fine. It is just fine. It doesn't have to grow into a mega brand. You don't have to have 50 shops. And, you know, I mean, obviously you might end up having 50 shops, although with online you probably don't need 50 shops. But I think it's, you know, it has been a slow process, but I've learned a lot on the way and I've never, But I don't think I ever in 40 years have thought, oh, what am I doing? You know, this is too much for me. I've just so loved it. And I would much prefer to, you know, when I'm no longer on this earth, to think to myself, gosh, you're lucky, Kiki.

29:06It's been really special. Rather than, you know, it's so great, you know, I've got 40 shops and, you know, it's this and that and I'm knackered and, you know, I've had enough and all that. And why did I do that? I shouldn't do that. I didn't see my children once, you know. So I think it's good to pace yourself firstly in the first five years. Well, Kiki McDonough, many congratulations to you on this milestone. And thank you for sharing your market insight, your business journey and your advice with our listeners. Thank you, too. Thank you for having me here. Pleasure. The BOF podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.

29:49Thank you.