Sinéad O’Dwyer: ‘The Glorification of Vulnerability in Fashion Is Really Bizarre’

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOFest podcast. It's Friday, October 24th. Irish designer Sinead O'Dwyer grew up in a household of creative entrepreneurs. Her father was a silversmith and a sculptor. Her mother was a music educator. And her grandmother knit and sewed uniforms. Until the age of 14, there were no screens in her home, not even a TV. Instead, she was encouraged to read, to craft, and spend time outdoors. After studying in the Netherlands and a formative stint in the fashion industry, she developed a critical stance on the industry's narrow body ideals.

0:48I saw quite a lot of models who were visibly ill, and I was really struck by that. And yeah, that was something that felt really insane to me, that on the runway they look, you know, so pulled together and like, actually behind the scenes there's like so many emotional struggles happening. I suppose like if you are not the beginning point of the garment, if you have a totally different shape, then most likely the garment isn't going to look like the photo. I don't think people really understand like the fit model for a brand is so important. This week on the BOF podcast, I sit down with Sinead to discuss her practice and finding practical, sustainable routes to market through direct-to-consumer, bespoke clients and carefully chosen retail partners.

1:35Here's Sinead O'Dwyer on the BOF podcast.

1:41Sinead O'Dwyer, welcome to the BOF podcast. Thank you for having me. It's a nice sunny day here in London. And I've been thinking about you a lot, actually, since we met in Paris a few weeks back at the brunch that we held for new BOF 500 members. and you and I had a little conversation about the dress that you had designed for yourself and it got me even more curious about you and your process and the way you approach design but before we get into those fine details I want to talk a little bit about growing up in Telamore in Ireland where is that exactly what was it like growing up there? It's the Midlands in Ireland.

2:30So I suppose the landscape is like quite bog-like. Bog-like. So tell me what, like, for people who don't know what a bog is. Well, a bog is where, like, over thousands of years, trees have fallen and created this, like, dense peat. And then, yeah, so it's a very rich soil. Fertile. Fertile. Well, it's not fertile, it's rich, so it's cut for turf. So, like, for like burning though actually that's now illegal so yeah I'm from the countryside but not not like extremely rural but yeah like I was always outside we like always like on a farm like one of my best friends Laura had a farm so we spent a lot of time cycling between people's houses being outside so growing up in a place like that as a creative person like where did you find your outlets?

3:23What were the things that kind of sparked that creativity for you? Well, definitely. So my grandmother who passed away two years ago, she was like an amazing hand knitter, our knitting, and then all sorts of other just knitting of everything. She also made dolls. She made quilts. She made all of our school uniforms actually, because my mom wanted us to have like natural fibrous school uniforms. So as much as school is allowed, she knit our jumpers when we were really small and made our shirts and like she made my communion dress she made my confirmation outfit like this um she made my mom's wedding dress so like I learned to sew when I was really really small from her and learned to like make lots of stuff and also my dad is a silversmith and a sculpture and then my mom's a musician so I think I like grew up around like a lot of creativity and also I suppose both of them being very entrepreneurial like how do you I suppose the question of how do you make money as a creative person so my mom um was like a music educator her whole life as well.

4:22She taught music until more in, she started her own music school. So the sort of like combination of like creativity and entrepreneurial spirit is probably something I really grew up around. I think like also being in the countryside, like I was always outside building something, making something. And also my parents were really like, I'd say they're like a bit eccentric in a way and didn't have a television. We didn't have television until - At all. At all. um we didn't have a television at all until I think I was 14 my mom rented a monitor and we rented like a dvd player so they I remember like occasionally we would rent this monitor and then after a while like maybe by the time I was 16 or 17 we got a television like 17 I think we had a television but with four channels because the Irish channels it was four and now they have like a television they watch television but when I was younger that was like but that's kind of amazing right because it probably really impacted the way you see the world you know so many young people especially now I know my niece and nephew and my my sister's always trying to like ration their screen time right because if you just let them to their own devices they would be watching a tv or looking at their mobile or on their computer or their ipad all the time but to grow up screen free yeah how do you think that's impacted you maybe I think about that sometimes because I moved to New York when I was 23.

5:52And that's like the first time I had like a phone where I could like use the internet, which I think is kind of crazy. Like when I think, and now I'm like obsessed with my phone. So yeah, I do think about that all the time. I mean, I definitely, I mean, I read constantly. And actually, funnily enough, I feel like we went to the library, I was just like always reading because that was my TV basically. So I was always trying to find books that were kind of like TV. So I read like a lot of tragedy books when I was a child. And at one point my parents realized that I was reading like books that were from much older people that were like, like actually basically just TV in a book, like, um, Sweet Valley High and all those and Sweet Valley University.

6:30And then they were like, okay, this is like actually about like sex and murder. So. Okay. So in the midst of all of this, you know, the trashy TV books, the lack of screens and the bogs. Where did the fashion thing come from? It sounds like you made some, you learned to make some clothes from your grandmother, but you know, making clothes and deciding to study fashion are two completely different things. I think there was a really clear moment for me. I think I first became really interested in dance as a, as a sort of a medium of expression when I, when I saw the film Center Stage actually, and I was like, oh my God.

7:09And then when I was like 12 or 13 there was a Isabella Blow Philip Tracy exhibition in Dublin and my dad brought me and I remember seeing like McQueen's work for the first time and seeing the Philip Tracy ship hat and like also there was a video accompanying it when Naomi Campbell walking with the hat and like she's like pretending to be like drunk or like falling over and it was just kind of this like iconic video which was so like theatrical and I think I was like wow like this is amazing like And then I kind of understood from that moment, like the link between sort of fashion or clothing rather, and like emotions.

7:46And like in a way, like in my mind, I linked that to dance, like the sort of the movement of the body, the emotion. And then I became really obsessed with like fashion as a medium because I started researching, obviously, the McQueen shows in general. And at that time, there were so, you know, there was so much performance art in those shows. So I was like really interested in then like dance and fashion, I think. And actually immediately that summer, it was the summer before I went to secondary school, started making all these like enormous hats, which is kind of funny. So, yeah, I think that that was that moment that I kind of connected those two things together.

8:22And then from that point on, I was like, hmm, I'd like to study either dance or fashion. And you eventually did that, of course, because you studied at the RCA and you studied in the Netherlands. Yeah. I'm curious because you formed and have become known for this kind of idea of radical inclusion and you and I spent a bit of time talking about this in Paris with your approach to pattern cutting and casting and sizing like at what point in the journey did you go from looking at fashion as this kind of like incredible medium for expression and characters and creativity to becoming more critical about the way fashion projects imagery around the ideal body shape.

9:11Yeah. So I studied in the Netherlands. After my BA, I went to work as a trainee and kind of increasingly felt a bit like detached from the industry because I was really loving all the people I was meeting on the teams. I love all the designers I worked for. I loved the seamstresses. I loved like the making and the creativity and the whole process. And I loved getting to see like how the business actually worked within a company. And that was something I really got to see. And I really saw before the show how tiny the models really were. And actually I saw quite a lot of models who were visibly ill and I was really struck by that.

9:51And yeah, that was something that felt really insane to me that on the runway, they look, you know, so pulled together and like beautiful. And that was all the imagery the world is seeing. But then actually behind the scenes, there's like so many emotional struggles happening. There's not much eating. And it was like quite a weird contradiction to be like dressing people and then also hearing those insecurities and seeing that. And then on the runway, this like image of power and beauty and like sort of, that really struck me. It seems like quite jarring, right? To be going from this, the reality of what's an individual might be struggling with.

10:32Yeah. In order to then walk out onto the runway and project this image of strength and glamour and power, as you say. Yeah. Wow, I never quite thought of it that way. Yeah, because I was like dressing models in the styling cupboard and helping with all those different parts. So I was seeing people coming in for casting and like waiting and hoping to get a look, which is common, I suppose, across industry. And just kind of seeing that vulnerability and then that sort of like glorification almost of vulnerability was like really bizarre. But I still didn't actually link it to myself, weirdly. So I heard about Zoe Broach actually in New York.

11:12I met someone who told me about her and was like, you need to meet Zoe Broach. You need to just speak to her. And I was like, I'm just going to apply for this master's, despite the fact that I had no savings or no plan how I would even do a master's. But I just thought I'll just apply. And I ended up getting an interview and meeting her. And in the interview, I was like, wow, I just had the best conversation. I just like loved speaking to her. And she just had the idea of fashion education as not necessarily being about like, you know, learning how to create a great collection that would get you a job.

11:42But more like, how do you be like a fashion practitioner? And how do you then do the master's that helps you get to a point where you figured out how you want to contribute in general and not just sort of as a fashion designer, but like, yeah, like to the thinking of fashion, I suppose, and to potential change. And I thought that was like such a revelation for me. Was that really different from the school you studied at in the Netherlands in terms of the way they approached fashion? I think it's probably different to other fashion MAs. Because I think like BAs are, yeah, you're learning, you don't know anything.

12:18So you're learning pattern coding, you're learning how to make and build a collection, you're learning to think about a concept. When you get to your MA, ideally, you already know how to have a concept, make a thing, do a pattern. So it's like, well, why are you doing an MA? And for me, because I was finding things I saw in industry so challenging, I was like, I need a space to like unravel what I actually want to contribute. So I had never had the ambition or the idea that I would ever have a brand. Actually, that was really not it. It was more like coming from a place of confusion of like, oh, I love this industry.

12:46I love craft. I love fashion. I love the stories. I love the people on the teams. I love making. But there's like this weird thing in the industry, not only related to the brand I was working at, but just overall where luxury is like obsessed with some beauty ideals that are really harmful for the overall general public. Also people who aren't buying luxury. so I was going to this MA with a sense of confusion but meeting Zoe I wouldn't have done an MA without Zoe because meeting Zoe showed me that oh you don't do you don't have to do an MA to learn how to do like a really nice collection you can go to do an MA to be like how how do I want to contribute so but actually it was during my MA this is a very long story that I actually first realized that I had an eating disorder and had had one I suppose for since I was very very young.

13:33But I hadn't really connected it because I was like, oh, I'm just, of course, I'm always trying to be thinner. Of course, I'm always measuring. Of course, because that's where I'm supposed to be smaller. And I think, you know, that sort of like obsessive thinking had started when I was probably like 11. Even without access to television and all of those things. Yeah, just the idea that you should be smaller. Like I have such strong memories of like, of of like buying size six when I wasn't size six just to have size six so like just to have an object that was I mean like just crazy things like that like always buying sizes that were the wrong thing and being uncomfortable even when I was really small and then you know it got worse and better over different points in my life but during my MA I think I was really encouraged to think a lot more deeply about like what but what is what do you want to make work about because I came into my MA with like ideas of this and that and I remember really being challenged like is that really what your work is going to be about?

14:28And then like, I met my now wife in New York before I left. And I think in our relationship, I also like came up against that with her because I had like some very odd eating habits and I was always comparing. And it was just like, I was like, oh, this is very odd behavior for me. And now that I'm like looking at the system and how, how clothing is made and how it makes people feel, I'm starting to recognize how much has impacted me and like then during my MA I became really focused on the idea of trying to educate like people not necessarily in luxury but also just people in general about how patterns are made and how brands do have like a base pattern and a base model and I think I remember ever since I was younger being like oh seeing the picture of someone wearing something and I put it on and being like always disappointed like oh I don't look like that like I never look like the picture like why do I never look at the picture and so I started like interviewing friends and family about this ideas experiences of trying on clothing of how they relate to clothing and their body and for me naturally yeah I wanted to critique the usage of sort of like these standardized patterns to create garments and so I wanted to create my own beginning point so I started live casting again friends and family and making silicon casts and that's sort of my MA project wasn't really clothing it was more these cast works which are now the primary research for all my work now and the goal of the cast work was to kind of expand and understand the kind of diversity of body types that exist in real life so it was like it was many things it was it was kind of to do with the idea that trying to get people to visualize the idea that when you are wearing a garment you are actually wearing sort of an imprint of another person's body so I suppose like if if you are not the beginning point of the garment if you have a totally different shape then most likely the garment isn't gonna look like the photo or like look so it was kind of this idea of like um that clothing is sort of perceived as being maybe more for everyone than it is and like I don't think people really understand like the fit model for a brand is so important and the shape and like if it's a slightly shorter person or more petite or like has like a larger chest it really affects all the patterns in the brand and like and just in general and of course straight size has become the standard even in fast fashion like or depending on you know like i don't know h &m scandinavian so like there's like this sort of clothing will fit people better depending on where it's been made who's all those different ideas i think are totally missed by the general public so I was kind of like but it was also part of like a conversation with the people I was live casting like giving them an object which is their body to start these conversations so we would have these like conversations which ended up being a book that in the end it was a zine which was like a combination of portraits of the cast of the people and the interviews with them so yeah and then lastly and more importantly for me now is they are the beginning point of all the idea that I wanted to make patterns from a new beginning point, because we're still using patterns that were, were like blocks from that were, were created with like, um, formulas from, you know, a long time ago and with a kind of a body ideal in mind.

17:55So to create new, through my own gaze as a woman, also as a lesbian, like to like, how can I choose what I think is beautiful and then cut for that and then work from there to try and make things a bit more general or like create within the collection more items that could fit more people.

18:16We'll be right back with more on the BOF podcast.

18:24So it's one thing to make that the focus of your study. It's a completely different thing to say, oh, okay, I'm going to turn this into a real enterprise. And I know you had those entrepreneurial lessons or exposure from your parents who managed to translate their creativity into a way of building something that could sustain a living. That transition from the RCA into the real world. Like, how did you how did you go about making that leap? I definitely didn't plan. Again, I didn't graduate and think I'm going to have a brand at all. I suppose the work I was making had got some interest and I did a project with one granary with Shana Osborne and I like started doing stuff that was more sitting within like an art practice slash fashion world but you know since I hadn't actually been making any clothes with this process during my MA like a few things but nothing nothing really like the main work that I did over the two years was learning to fiberglass mold make life cast making these cast pieces so there was a huge step to clothing so I didn't really start I graduated in 2018 and then I sold my first collection in 2021 after the pandemic I believe so yeah there was like definitely some years of like confusion of like searching it was still not necessarily thinking I just kind of graduated as like maybe like a fashion practitioner someone who was interested in this idea and thinking about well where does this idea go how do I want to contribute so but I was really interested in how can we integrate inclusive design into luxury because systematically it doesn't currently work but I'm that's what I'm sort of like really fascinated by so because you've been thinking about this so much, I'm curious about where you think the system gets in the way.

20:26What are the systematic issues that need to be addressed that help us to overcome this challenge? I mean, the idea of different body shapes and different body sizes has been in the conversation around fashion, you know, for at least a decade, right? But when I think back, to this past season gone by. And I don't know if it's the Ozempic effect or, you know, GLP ones or if it's just a trend thing. But it seems to me like the industry hasn't really changed it. Maybe it hasn't even gone backward in the past few seasons about thinness. And it's not even just about thinness. It's about having only one type of body that the industry caters to.

21:17So my question to you, as someone who's kind of made this her life's work, as it were, is like, what are the systematic issues? Like, what needs to be addressed? I think, like, I have tried to come at this in quite a few different ways since I started with New Gen for Spring Summer 23. And then I did six shows in a row where each show I was like, this is the new way I'm going to come at this. And like each show, you know, so I've tried a lot of different things. And so from my experience, I would say there are so many things. Of course, there's misogyny, fat phobia, etc. But if we remove that and just discuss, like, practically speaking, what I think is difficult is that luxury, like the difference between, say, like high street and luxury, some of the difference is the quantity.

22:07and so I suppose the reason for luxury being sort of like more expensive and more special the techniques so the price point you know there's there's a capacity within a luxury space you have a customer who's willing to pay say 900 pounds for a dress you you can create in a more luxurious way in terms of like your techniques and all all those things but what seems to be how it works is that like stores, you get a smaller quantity and you're doing a lot more styles. So the scope for having more sizes is just really reduced. Well, let me just like add something in there for you to think about too, because I know I posed a very challenging question and don't want to put you on the spot, but theoretically, because luxury is higher priced And because it's not necessarily made in the same mass quantities as high street fashion or mass fashion, we could tailor or adjust or create more adapted versions of clothing for individuals, which is kind of how, you know, in the so-called olden days when, you know, people had clothes tailored specifically for them.

23:26That was part of the way the kind of the highest end of the fashion industry worked. And in certain parts of the world, that's still very common. You know, if you go to India or, you know, I did a conversation with another designer last week who told me that, you know, she grew up and everything was custom tailored for her growing up in Kenya. I mean, there's certain parts of the world where clothes are made for your body. I think perhaps one of the issues with the luxury, and this is actually not made in small quantities. you know that's made in you know maybe not the same quantities as the high street but you know you're talking about thousands maybe tens of thousands of the same look or the same style being made yes you know of exceptional materials with you know certain levels of technique and and and whatnot so it's like luxury is not rare or precious anymore.

24:24It's just, it's made in very, very, very large numbers. Yeah. The first main point I suppose I'll make is that there isn't a lot of developed Curve Luxury customer. So for instance, I've been selling extended sizing for several years and in different stores have invested in a larger size range, but that doesn't mean that it's sold well. in fact it hasn't and in in general of course as a new brand I don't sell like you know it's I'm not going to be on the you know like you have it takes a long time to develop your customer overall but I think one issue is that there isn't a super developed luxury customer that's plus size like proportionately to the sort of smaller size one and that makes sense because if luxury is sort of constantly advertising a smaller body.

25:15And then the sort of luxury clientele is being marketed to in this way, like be smaller. I think that's sort of like, yeah, that's why Exempic has been so popular. So there's that issue. So if a store does buy more extended size range, they don't necessarily have that customer coming to their store to look because that customer knows they're excluded from that store. That customer is already like, oh, I don't shop there right and even if they bought an extended sizing run from you yeah most of the other brands aren't offering an extended sizing run so you have a rail somewhere in the store and that customer might not even know that they're being catered for because that whole channel has excluded them for the longest time so I think that's like the first thing that's I find like a really big barrier which is why I agree with you with um sort of more tailored garments that's kind of what I've come around to I started off being like yeah I'm selling I'm selling my extended size range in the stretch garments on essence I was like this is amazing and then I was like selling my extended size range on stretch and also tailored garments on brown so I was like this is great but then like I was like oh but I actually do see though people are buying the curve sizes now over time and so like it's like you know you need to it takes time for people to discover what you're doing so that's fair enough but like people are not necessarily going on certain websites looking for a size 20 because they know they can't get size 20 there.

26:39And they also may not, you know, so that's been kind of one main barrier. Like I think it will take many years to develop the trust in the customer because like you're like in a, in a system, which has been like really excluding most people above size 14, then like there's like not a trust also. And there's also like, it doesn't feel nice to be seen sort of not be thought of and not be perceived is important so you're you're maybe also just not interested then so that's definitely the first barrier found so for me now my more of my investment is in like I used to be really like trying to get stores to buy the extended sizes now I'll do that to a certain point but I'm also just more focused on me being able to buy my extended sizes and then also doing more bespoke made-to-order direct consumer which is like what you said and and trying to use my margin to offer the made to order, you know, in this same price as the ready to wear.

27:34So that I think that is the way forward ultimately, also in terms of sustainability. I think the conversation around sustainability and extended sizing is like really similar because wholesaling is so, so challenging, especially for small businesses. And there's no room for error in wholesaling, which means there's kind of no room for you spending all that extra money on extended sizing because to do it properly you need to have like around four sample sizes per style which means you need to sell less styles to that retailer which they don't want because they want like a broader range of things so I think I've started to like cater to each store a bit more individually in that way and accept that some stores are just not going to go with extended sizing and that's fine.

28:22And then what I take on as wholesale just needs support what I'm trying to do for the sort of people I cater to, like that I actually know, like I'm trying to focus more on the customers I really know who come back to buy the 16 every season and make sure that I have what they may need. There's a lot of conversation around sort of this like huge untapped market, which is like, I suppose people above size 12 who'd like to buy a luxury, which is like very true. But then there has to be the investment in that community from the stores, from wholesalers, from the brands in order to gain that trust, in order to gain that customer.

28:59It's not so easy as just putting some curve models on the runway and being like, oh, like, give us your trust. Like, that's not going to happen. If a certain community of customers has been excluded for the industry for such a long time, there's going to have to be sustained investment in recapturing the trust and interest of those customers over a sustained period of time. It's not going to happen overnight. Exactly. And I think that's like the real challenge. but then why is that not happening and that's to do with these embedded ideas of what is beauty like Eurocentric ideas like misogynistic ideas fat phobia those are the reasons why that sustained effort isn't happening so that's like the tension that's what makes it like very challenging and that's why I think ultimately I have after trying lots of ways really and especially because the current economy decided to be really focused on like through my e-commerce like having my standard sizing so that I can be in control over how I'm outreaching to my customer because I have gained like maybe industry hasn't but I've gained trust from people so when I have a pop-up I will get people who've wanted to buy something coming because they have you know I've suppose I've been doing runways for three years which is not you know 10 years but it's enough it's I've shown that I really care and I do really care and I don't always get it right and I absolutely make a lot of mistakes as as an as a new brand but i i think that that's my my beginning point now is like maybe less focusing on the extended sizing in the realm of wholesale though i do have currently extended sizing on salando which is great but more like where do i have trust who do i know that i love how can i think about them and create events where they can come and try more often and actually um this is the first year where i've had an e-commerce which is surprising because i should have had it earlier but i couldn't afford to buy my extended sizing because i couldn't afford because if you're buying you know two sizes of every style you can just add a few bits to your e-commerce like a few years ago but i wanted to offer at least size 6 to 24, I offered to shop size six to 30, but I wanted to offer size six to 24, at least on my e-commerce.

31:22So then that's 12 sizes, I think. So it just becomes more expensive because you're buying 12 pieces of every style, which is very like small brands usually buy like three to five or even sometimes two. So that's kind of been a complication. So I'm currently working on building my e-commerce community now because I also wasn't offering that myself. So that's interesting. So like, that's one major barrier. The other barrier, which you've alluded to earlier, is just the image that's projected by the industry. You know, I've had a chance to chat with people like Ashley Graham and Paloma El-Sasser and other models that have kind of really kind of shared with me that they will be invited to go and walk in a show.

32:12and the designer will make a garment for them. And then that garment's never available in the store. So it becomes more about the projection of the image of being size inclusive. But maybe for the reasons you're mentioning, those garments never get produced. So I'm just wondering. Well, because people have to care. There has to be an investment in the whole industry to be like, hey, we actually care about this. and we're going to, I mean, you will lose a bit of money at first because you have to invest in that customer and be like, hi, we actually want to cater for you, we respect you, we want to have you in the store buying your size or we want you to do a direct order.

32:53But I think there's a real lack of empathy in the fashion industry when it comes to this topic. And when it comes to these really famous models who are super well-respected, there's that respect. But when it comes to actually a customer, I just feel like there's not that many people in the industry who really, who have the power, who care enough to like, to work on this because it has to be like a collective thing. So you mentioned a couple of retailers that Essence, Browns, I mean, those are two retailers that have been facing challenges recently. I mean, yeah, and this is probably not just as a designer focusing on inclusive sizing, but just as an emerging designer generally.

33:38Like, how has it been for you navigating the turmoil ripping through the wholesale sector in fashion? Yeah, I mean, wholesale, I've always found very challenging because of also my techniques are very handmade. And yeah, so my largest retailer now is Zalando. so they've actually bought size 6 to 24 which is really exciting so that's a that's a positive thing in terms of sizing but um I definitely see especially because of like how I like to work on the people I want to design for and also how how I um build my garments that direct consumer is like very interesting to me but also working with smaller stores which like have a really tight selection also know their customer really well I think that's like overall the way forward like Like less quantity for more smaller stores, more of a personal investment from my side and like pop-ups and customer facing events.

34:34I do a lot of bespoke. So that's like a really important part of my business. I think it's similar to what you're saying about like this sort of tailored approach. I feel like the beginning of me selling, it was still a moment where you were getting these huge orders from these online retailers. And then you were like, this is what I have to do. Okay, and then I have to do the extended sizing within this huge thing, even though there's no physical store. So no one can try that. So it kind of makes no sense. And then you're measured to these like unreasonable expectations around sell through and all of that stuff.

35:07Exactly. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And like also like if you are trying to get this new size 20 customer to come on like this online retailer that has nothing else size 20, they're not going to buy a 900 pound dress without trying it when they already know that they've never been able to buy anything on that store before. so it's like very it became like that all of that doesn't work together like wholesaling online extended sizing it just became like something i kept trying different ways every season of making it work i mean i was interested in the zalando customer because they have like a range of price points they would have and they already had they had a curve section um i don't it's not like it's not a huge curve section but i was like oh they've already got a customer coming to this store so that's already positive whereas I've never worked as an online retailer that had any sort of curve customer who would be regularly visiting the online store so that was a positive thing but yeah I think it's kind of like having like lots of different strategies which are like for me it's bespoke direct to consumer pop-ups super important for me because of the trying on a lot of my garments are very fitted so you do like there's the stretch ones but there's also like ones that are quite specific so you want to try your size and then more like I just launched on HGrenzo so like having that like shops which have have a very particular audience and that particular customer they're buying for trying to kind of work with people who also know who their customer is so you're also just not making clothing that you feel like is just going into the abyss and you're like who is gonna buy that yeah so I think especially because at the moment things are quite precarious It's keeping it really close to myself, trying to have as much of a personal relationship as I can, because that feels more stable because then you really know who the person is buying the clothes.

36:51It's so much to manage, right? You know, I'm curious, as someone who's so clear about her mission and who's also very creative and who understands that she needs to take that mission and her creativity and somehow sustain it in a business, what do you find the most challenging? To be frank, cash flow. Well, that's the eternal answer. That's the right answer. Yeah, I mean, cash flow is so complicated. Yeah. And like managing different terms. And yeah, I just feel like when you start a business, you are new for so long because it takes so many years until you figure out like your internal system and like your way of keeping.

37:43Yes, that strategizing. And I don't have a business partner. So, and I am, I've, I can really see myself, my flaws that I'm very creative and I, I'm, I am illogical sometimes when it comes to like certain choices and decisions. And I, I would say that is the most challenging. Cashflow. So what, what advice do you have? There's so many people who are inspired by what you do. You know, I can see it and hear it in the reactions online and, you know, in conversations with people. So for young designers out there who are maybe just cottoning onto their mission or focus or purpose in terms of channeling their creativity, what advice do you have to those people as they kind of make their first forays into this very challenging industry?

38:35I suppose like I mean it's a cliche but just really stay true to yourself because I mean there's it's such a subjective industry and like you just need to figure out like where you want to contribute and like what what your interest is and grow from there um yeah there's so many ways of being part of the fashion industry which is it's such an exciting industry there's so many roles and there's so many of them are creative and interesting business and it's I think that the most important thing for me was that I noticed when I wasn't happy with something and I tried to like switch that's probably the most important thing and I think also the thing I love the most about fashion actually is really that it is so much about a team and I think for me I'm very much a team person I don't want to be a solo person so that's what I love about this industry that there's so many hands going to making everything so like being part of that is so rewarding so yeah it's good advice and thank you for what you do because it's so important and it's so valuable to our industry to have voices and contributions like yours and I'm really grateful for the time we spent together because, yeah, as I mentioned, I'd been curious about you for a while, but then especially after our brief chat in Paris a few weeks ago, so I'm glad we got to expand on that.

40:05Amazing. Thank you so much. It's been so good chatting today. The BOF Podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.