The Evolving Art of Brand Collaborations

0:08Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. And I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. And today we are talking collaborations. It used to be a major event when two brands teamed up to release a collection. Now it's barely an exaggeration to say we're getting something on the scale of H &M and Carl Lagerfeld or Fendi and Versace once a week or even more often. And there are seemingly no longer any limits on who would release a collaboration and who they'd collaborate with.

0:42I got a press release for a collaboration between a luxury slipper brand and Eggo Waffles the other day. But why do a few of these tie-ups seem to really work and so many vanish without a trace? Today we have two guests, one who wrote a story about collaborations gone wrong and one who wrote about some really special ones. Leigh Takanashi and Julia Labasse, welcome to the Debrief podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Brian. Thanks so much for having me, guys. Thanks for being here. Julia, I want to start with you because you recently published an article with the very memorable headline, Why Are Sneaker Collaborations So Boring?

1:19And I thought that was a great question. Why are they so boring? I think, yeah, a lot of them in the last year have been just very stale. I think that's not to say that all of them are boring, but I think in the last year, it's just because a lot of sneaker giants and particularly Nike have just become so reliant on retros and that retro strategy and mostly just because it's worked for them in the past it's been something that they can always go back to like the Nike Air Force One the Jordan One and the Dunk it's just an easy thing for them to go to especially in terms of how it's easy to produce they've already got the molds so it's very easy to just make a ton of different colorways but now it seems that consumers are just, they want some visible newness.

2:05We still love retros as we've seen with Adidas Samba, but we're looking for just something that has a bit of newness to it. And yeah, without that, it's just simply a copy of something we've seen a million times before. And that's why we've seen brands like Bands and Converse really struggle in the last few years because they've just failed to innovate. And I guess that's the whole point of collaborations in the first place is it offers something new and unexpected that a brand would never do on their own. Yeah, exactly. I think a good example of something that has been done well is Asics and Cecily Behansen, their collaboration last year on the gel quantum 360 that was basically like a Mary Jane sneaker hybrid, which we're actually seeing a lot more of recently.

2:53That was just like a completely new thing for Asics, especially a brand that's been very focused on just making retro runners for so many years. And to see them kind of go into this space of fashion and collaborating with a designer like Cecily has been really transformative for them in terms of showing the consumers that they can do something far more creative and really tap into a more female audience as well. So it's something that's just really like unique and just different perspective. And I think that's what's kind of pushed them to the forefront. And I guess the other direction you can go with that is something like that Eggo Waffles collaboration I mentioned, which is definitely unique and unexpected.

3:35I mean, I'll let you guys decide whether in a good or bad way. But I mean, there's a certain logic to doing something like that, too, right? yeah I think so I think sometimes it works I think some very crazy things do work but I think when it's done lazily I think the consumer can tell like I think we're becoming much more smarter at really looking into brands and what they're doing and what makes sense I think sometimes when it doesn't make sense we're just very we can see that and I think that's a great example of that would be like I think Nike when they collaborated with Tiffany and they made the most like the most boring shoe in my opinion where it was literally just black and then a bit of a Tiffany swoosh and I think actually the accessories I think they did for that was more exciting than the shoe itself so I think it's easy for us to see and I think that's why brands really have to step up in terms of what they're doing because consumers are much much smarter than they think.

4:30When Brian asked about why they've gotten stale in the beginning you referenced what you refer to in the article as like a cheat code. Like if you just switch the, you know, make a little tweak to the logo or change the color, it's a safe way to appear like you're collaborating or you're doing something unique without really doing that. I wonder what brands think the risk is of actually being innovative when it comes to the collaboration. What do they think they have to lose if they go too far in the other direction? I think because sometimes if they do go in this niche direction, it can be a risk because it might just not resonate with many people.

5:03And I think they're always trying to see if they can both resonate to that collaborator's audience and then a wide audience. So sometimes it's just a case of trying to appeal to as many people as they can. I think that's where they go wrong because I think the niche they go is what people are really interested in. But sometimes some brands try and go niche, but then appear wide as well. And I think that's where, yeah, they struggle a lot more. That's so true because, I mean, the risks of creating a small collaboration that maybe doesn't find its audience. I mean, for a company as big as Nike or Adidas, I mean, big deal, like no one buys some shoe that had a limited production run.

5:40But at the same time, if they're just releasing boring collaboration after boring collaboration, end of the masses, you end up with something like Nike and Tiffany, which really, that's probably not the discourse they wanted about their brand out in the marketplace when that came out. That's a nice segue into Leigh's article, which might have an answer to the question of why collaborations are so boring. It's maybe thinking outside of the box to other categories like art. So Leigh's piece was called Why Fashion Needs the Art World More Than Ever. Leigh, talk to us a little bit about why. Thank you, Sheena.

6:10Yeah. At a moment when just collaborations are in the sneaker space are just starting to feel still, I think what's really interesting to see is how like art collaborations or collaborations with artists or pop artists are really still attracting a large buyer and just a large audience. I started in particular focus on all these activations that were going on at Miami Art Basel and Miami Art Week in December. And, you know, this was coming at a moment when there was like a luxury downturn, there's a lot of uncertainty at the art market with like Manhattan gallery shuttering and auction house sales unfailing.

6:40Yet crypto entrepreneurs like Justin Sun are still dropping$6 million on a duct tape banana on a wall like that happened in November last year. And, you know, I bring up this guy Justin Sun because he previously made headlines in 2021 for spending millions on a Khaas painting. Last year, we still see Khaas releasing capsule collections with Dior. We see Louis Vuitton revisiting its groundbreaking partnership with Takashi Murakami. I think you could interpret these collaborations as boring repeats of collections that these luxury houses put out years ago, but at the same time, I also just see is something that's stable and just continuously works, you know.

7:22Kaz, last year, he released collaborations with Uniqlo and the luxury watchmaker Audemars Piguet. And I think it just shows that he has this everlasting appeal and reach as a commercial artist. And at the same time, Murakami, you know, he also debuted his own, like, footwear brand last year that sells, like, flip-flops for$70 to$120. And when I see something like that, you know, I think, yes, you could interpret it as something that, like, cheapens his artwork, maybe. But at the same time, I kind of see it as this artist has so much mass appeal that he could create like a Crocs adjacent footwear brand and people are actually buying it.

7:54So I don't think it's surprising to see just like luxury brands continue to lean in on art collaborations, even though they may feel repetitive at times. But I just feel like there's just a guaranteed customer there who has massive amounts of disposable income and just always be at these art fairs just ready to spend. And is that the customer here? It's people who are fans of the artists as opposed to I mean, even someone like Kaws or Murakami, like, I think the general consumer for a lot of these bands probably has never heard of them. I mean, are they still going to buy those collaborations?

8:26Or is that even beside the point? I think it's a little bit of both, to be honest, because I think, yes, like when Kha's covalibrates with like Audemars Piguet or when Takashi Murakami collates with Louis Vuitton, you're definitely you're obviously aiming towards like that, you know, super rich, like consumer, like maybe like a crypto bro, if you will. But I do feel like there's like almost like a trickle down effect because it's like these artists have created like brand identities of their own. Owning like a Kaws piece or owning a Murakami piece of any sort of category, whether that's flip flops or Uniqlo shirt, it still feels aspirational to own something like that.

8:58I mean, I remember the first Uniqlo Kaws collection came out. I was a freshman in college and I remember being so excited to be able to buy this product just because for years Cosmos like this artist who was only you can only access his clothing for like really just like expensive streetwear product like it was either for all these supreme releases or like collaborations with bathing ape that would cost like at least 200 to 400 dollars but when I saw Uniqlo was doing this I was one of those people who lined up the first day and you know purchased a shirt for 20 dollars so I do think there is that wide appeal and I think in some sense like you know these artists are like a luxury brand of their own you know i think you answered this question but i just wanted to hone in on the bit of a certain customer of like a sneaker brand or a streetwear brand feeling like they have access to for the first time high art is that a part of the draw for a brand is to give a younger customer access to high art and is that and does it work i think so you know i think a lot of these collaborations they're not too different from like this whole concept of like artist editions that you saw what Andy Warhol did with like Brillo boxes you know you know maybe in some cases they're more available than others like you know the college Uniqlo product is probably extremely mass-produced and it's not like rare or limited in any sense but it still gives you an opportunity to purchase this art and just like collect it you know and I think that is a huge draw to our collaborations is there's this like really collectible aspect to it and it's something I'm personally have always been passionate about as a consumer.

10:23For me, I'm obsessed with graffiti art specifically. So every time Supreme has released a collaboration with graffiti artists, I've actually been pretty moved to purchase it instantly. And it's really, I think, just a collectability to it that I think is fueling that. And I think that really does reach all types of consumers in general. I remember covering a lot of the sneaker collabs a few years ago, and there was a recognition that brands didn't do these things for a big revenue driver, but more for the halo effect. Can we talk a little bit, both of you, about how brands measure success or how both sides of the equation measure success, whether it's the artist or the brand?

10:59What does success look like beyond heat? Or maybe it is just heat. Personally, I think it's really getting hard to define success within the collaboration space because for the longest time, I sincerely defined it by the resale value hours after release. These days, the resale market for streetwear and sneaker collaborations is pretty much dead, I'd say. I'm not certain, but I feel like that whole ecosystem is now more defined by the volume in terms of resale rather than a shoe by night coming out for$200 and you sell for 1 ,000 in two hours, right? So resale for who? Resale for the brand or for the consumer?

11:36They're snapping it up because of resale value. And then the brand measures that as being a good thing for the brand too, because it represents heat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think like nowadays, I think like how you could define success with those types of collaborations, I think it's just really just something that breaks through the noise. And like, I think gives the consumer just like experience that's more than just kind of acquiring the product in general. You know, one thing I think about is just the re-release of Stash's collaboration with Nike recently. You know, this is a collaboration from the 2000s that's seen as a sneaker girl by a lot of hardcore sneaker collectors.

12:14And when they re-released the shoe, it could have just been like a regular drop or it could have just been like a regular release. It's like for an online raffle, if you will. But what they did was at Art Basel, they created this whole exhibition that showed Stash's history of Nike. And it really gave consumers like an experience of like, you know, something more than just buying the shoe itself. And I think that's kind of something that is important, you know, when doing these things now. I think that experience element is such a key part of this. I mean, you see with the bigger, best thought out collaborations that they're turning over the whole design of their stores off into this.

12:50They'll change the window, the color scheme of the entire store sometimes to match a high profile release. But to me, I mean, the way I always tell whether these things are a success or not are whether they do it again. So there's certain collaborations that have existed for years. I mean, Uniqlo is famous for doing this. You know, Uniqlo U and the JW Anderson twice a year collections that they do. Clearly, those are selling and they're selling enough to justify putting the effort in again and again. And you can also tell that these really do move the needle financially and are more than heat because a lot of these companies will talk about collaborations on their earnings calls.

13:26So they're telling investors, this was a big enough deal for us that it moved the needle financially. And that might have been partially marketing and just getting their name out there and the halo effect. But I think some of these collaborations, the sales from them alone is enough to actually justify doing it. Why don't we shift gears a bit and talk about what a good collaboration looks like? So Leigh, I'd love to hear more about these graffiti collaborations that you just instantly will buy, like no matter what Supreme releases. like obviously they know what they're doing on that front yeah i mean personally i'm a huge fan of graffiti so yeah i do find myself buying a lot of this merchandise created by like you know these super niche underground artists who frankly reject commercialism for the most part um and i don't know i think what makes them so good is just that it feels very authentic and real you know it doesn't feel like something that just you know it feels like oh we gave you a paycheck especially in supreme's case like it doesn't feel like they just gave me a paycheck and it's like okay here just like do something for me i feel like they really let these artists express themselves as individuals and like just all while also like giving them this spotlight that you just don't usually see them get i think especially within just like graffiti culture it's a thing that hasn't been um commodified in the same sense as other subcultures like skateboarding or hip-hop you know it's not like a huge thing especially when it comes to like true street graffiti and those types of things.

14:50So I think just like seeing the authenticity be represented from a brand, just letting their collaborators just like take the real and just do what they want to do, I think is really key in that sense. Julia, you had a really great example of successful collaborations in your story, which was a Bima Williams, a former Nike and Adidas marketer who did a collaboration with Sockney. And Sockney basically gave Bima carte blanche on the collaboration. He could do whatever he want mixed with the colors the textures and he they found great success in that tell us why well I think it's because they really just gave him a lot of creative freedom he was able to put his own colors on the shoe and like his label like claimer on the back of the shoe as well and I think just yeah just gave him like free reign in terms of using the materials he wanted and really collaborating with him in terms of what he thought his audience would like and what Sockony could provide and I think that's where like a lot of footwear brands kind of really excel in terms of creating a product both for collaborators really excited to talk about and something that their audience will be excited about too and I think it's not necessarily something that will drive a lot of revenue especially these like smaller much smaller collaborators or something these things that are like a one-off but I think it's something that shows that Sockany is open to working with lots of different creatives, whether big or small, and kind of shows that they're willing to innovate as well.

16:13And I think that's why it worked so well for him. And probably also a credibility component to it. It just, you can tell when there was a genuine collaboration taking place and the shoe looks different, but you can see his influences, but also the brand's identity still there. I think there's, that's more credible and dare I say it authentic than what maybe a lot of other sneaker brands have put out lately contributing to the staleness that your article referenced yeah I would definitely agree I think it's it shows that yeah it's credible to Sockany and just shows that even these smaller brands I think are really testing the bigger brands as well they're showing that hey we can do innovation I think it makes consumers kind of just look different ways because they're like oh people here are doing a lot more like interesting things that resonate with me more rather than just like a usual collaboration that might just be changing the colors of a shoe they've seen hundreds of times before.

17:06Where do we think this is all headed? I mean, have we hit peak collaboration? Is there any such thing as peak collaboration? I think we say that certainly we all I think we've probably written that story a few times these last few years. I mean, personally, I think the future has in store is just like i think more collaborations with just emerging artists in general like i think it's about time that i think we kind of shift our attention away from just the tried and true partners that we've always seen in this in these kinds of spaces um and i think already in 2025 especially you know kind of connecting both sneaker and our collabs like we're kind of seeing that with the british artist salon who is about to get his own like nike air max collab to me that in itself is super interesting because he was one of the most inquired artist according to Artsy in 2024 but he's also this person who rejects the art world and its rules you know and I think what's really funny about that specific collab is that it's his first like real collaboration like there's this whole shtick to schlong that he's getting a lot of attention for is that he creates these unofficial collaborations with brands like Louis Vuitton Rolex and Ramoah and it's kind of like the same transgression that created this massive people for Kaz who as a graffiti artist he went up to bus stops in New York City took ads out from DKNY and Tommy Hilfiger, went back to his apartment, painted his character on them, and then put them back into these bus stations and looked like a real collaboration, but it was actually unsanctioned art that he made.

18:30And I think in general, I think fashion always embraces just outlaws and outsiders, especially in terms of creatives, like Kha's. And I think we're just going to see just that relationship always keep going. I think we'll always see just fashion brands just gravitate towards these artists who are kind of rejecting the traditional rules of the art world. Julia, where do you think we can go from here? Where are the opportunities? To back off Leigh, I think, yeah, a lot of, you see a lot more creatives or just artists and people in general kind of just going the unconventional route. And even the sneaker collaborations, sometimes these smaller ones are like, they're not even fully financed by the brands like the collaborators having to do their own marketing or pay for like getting extra if they want to sell the product on their own site they're having to fork out extra money so I think people are just trying to do something different and I think yeah it's hard to say exactly where it's going but I think we're definitely looking for excitement and kind of just more of an experience with collaborations because I think a lot more consumers are just looking for having just more than the collaboration, like how does this live and how does it last?

19:43And I think that's where we're going to see it going. I have to ask the billion dollar question, which is what's AI's role in that? Hold on, I'm going to plug fashion collaboration into chat GPT and see what it suggests for me, because I'm sure that's how some of these come about, frankly. Yeah, there is. I have heard things about, yeah, Reebok. Last year, they did some kind of rollout with Instagram in terms of having an experience where you can design a sneaker on I think Instagram stories or something like that and I think Reebok is really trying to go into the AI space with footwear but I really don't see I don't know how that's going to work and I don't see how people are gonna even yeah even interact with that and I think even just recently hearing a lot about how chat gpt is like really bad for the environment and that like one search on chat gpt is like 10 searches on google so i think maybe that might spark some kind of probably won't much like backlash but kind of just people might be cautious of things that are made on ai a bit more but i don't know it's hard to say i think it's quite early days still for ai especially to move into fashion but maybe i'm wrong yeah chat GPT recommended to me a Prada Tesla collaboration.

20:57So it might not quite be ready yet for primetime. You know, it's funny though, when talking about something like how AIs will change the future of collabs, because in my opinion, I feel like all of this, like the shift, the shift everything to online, I think has actually kind of like done the reverse effect where it's like, I feel like more people want to experience like collaborations just in like a physical setting or like have it connected to like a real experience when it comes to just buying the product itself. Like, you know, I think Art Basel is a great example of that where you see all these activations around like art collaborations there.

21:31You get to actually meet the artist, you know, maybe there's like a mural painting event that's happening where maybe there's a chance to take like a picture of a giant statue of like a Verdi or something like that. But also just like, you know, things like ComplexCon, right? Like, you know, when Travis Scott took that over, like Nike built this whole Coliseum to promote like his latest signature shoe and there was like a soccer games happening in this space and all that and i think those types of things are really like attracting sneaker heads today to like certain drops i mean you know i think one of the biggest examples of that was um you know cortez did another collaboration in nike where like you know to get these shoes they you know again sent kids on scavenger hunts throughout like cities in london and like new york and you know it was interesting because like i was actually at the release for the shoe in New York City and I saw these kids just waiting online for four hours in front of this like mom and pop sneaker store in Bedford Stuyvesant Brooklyn and it kind of restored that like you know 2000s like you know waiting in line for sneakers again feeling and you know it was centered on a shoe that wasn't like a super popular Nike silhouette it was an air for Hirachi like and I don't know I think I could never if someone told me that kids would be lining up to buy Hirachis in 2025 or not believe them at all.

22:50But that's the thing. It's like how this brand did it actually got kids to wait like for seven hours in the freezing cold just to buy a pair of sneakers. So I think it's really that IRL experience is something that consumers are really looking for when it comes to these types of releases these days. Yeah, AI is at its best. I think if it pushes us to do more things in person and get more connected, we could only hope. I think that's a nice place to wrap up today's conversation on a hopeful, positive note. Leigh and Julia, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much, Gina.

23:21It was a pleasure to join you. Thank you so much, guys. It was a pleasure to be on the podcast. Please be sure to check out Leigh's article, Why Fashion Needs the Art World More Than Ever, and Julia's story, Why Are Sneaker Collaborations So Boring, at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced by Olivia Davies, edited and mixed by Eric Bria. I'm Brian Baskin. And I'm Sheena Butler-Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.