What Happens When Women Lead

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm Senior Correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. Today, The Debrief is taking you on-site and on-stage at BOF Voices 2025 for a powerful conversation about what happens when women lead. Celebrated designers Claire Wade Keller and Maria Corneo joined me at the iconic Soho Farmhouse on the English countryside, where we explored what it has meant for them to build successful careers in an industry where the top creative roles remain overwhelmingly held by men.

0:46Wade Keller's storied resume spans Givenchy, Chloe, and Gucci, and today she serves as creative director at Uniqlo. Corneo's decades-old New York-based label counts Michelle Obama and Christy Turlington Burns among its most devoted fans. A central theme of our session? Women in fashion design often wear many hats, but two are constant. They must lead the companies they build and they must lead the way for the next generation of women who come up behind them.

1:20Hello everyone. Feels really good to be at my first Voices and it's the 10th one ever. Very iconic. So we're talking about women in leadership design and I kind of feel like I should start with the obvious here, which is that for decades, as Imran just spelled out, women have been the chief customer, the muse, some would say the conscience of the fashion industry, shaping fashion from end to end, yet they've held surprisingly so few of those chief creative roles. And as the panel before us just discussed, as time goes on, this feels like it's getting harder to explain and frankly harder to ignore, right?

1:57So I want to start with the disconnect. So always the chief customer, never really the creative chief. Can both of you talk about where that disconnect begins? Let's start with you, Claire. It's such an interesting paradox, I have to say. And I think it seems to me when I read a lot of the sort of statistics, and I think there's a recent study that sort of highlighted the fact that about 85 % of the designers who are in graduate school are women and only 15 % are men. But upon graduating, it switches quite quickly. And I think, so it obviously is starting quite early on in the process. And I think for me, maybe the question isn't the problem with us women.

2:44But I think there's just a narrative that shifts. And I think part of it is definitely about the fact that men are often seen as the implementers of big change and women of stability. And so with stability, we're often also sort of cornered into a commercial sense of aesthetic. And I'd like to disagree. But I think the other route that a lot of women often are finding their way into the industry is through starting their own brand. So Maria, I know you can speak to this, but I think that is one of, When you look at brands today, many of the women, let's say directors, are actually creators of founding companies.

3:28So they come out of grad school and they start their own brands and they don't enter the pipeline because they probably already can tell it's broken. Yeah. Maria, what about you? Where do you think the disconnect begins and where do you feel it's the strongest? I think the disconnect is that a lot of the heads of the company are male. So they have a very misogynistic point of view towards women, to be honest. I faced that when I worked in Japan, you know, in the 80s when I had a brand called Richmond Cornejo and I used to go to Japan. And when I was there working on my own, they were very nice to me.

4:01I worked really well. The minute my partner arrived, John Richmond, it's like I didn't exist. So I think, you know, for myself, I felt that I've always worked with male CEOs. So it's very much that culture, to be quite honest. And also women, like we make clothes for other women and our crew. So they're maybe less press worthy. I think they think they're less sensational because they're not as Instagrammable. We actually make real clothes and not just for Instagram. So there is that disconnect. You know, we're making clothes that people actually want to wear every day. You hinted at something that I think is interesting because, Claire, you've touched so many sides of this industry.

4:41As Imran mentioned, you've worked at Chloe and Givenchy and now at Mass Retail at Uniqlo. How do some of those things that Maria just described show up across those tiers? for you? It's completely true. I've worked with, I think, predominantly men as CEOs and across the sort of C-suite area. And that not only reaches the clothing industry, but also I've worked in fragrance as well. And it's the same equation in fragrance and beauty. So it is a real challenge. And I think that's part of the conversation for sure. But I do also think that women have very dynamic personal lives and I think this is a situation that is quite different for men so as women we know that we also have a ticking clock as it were I think all of us women know that and I think that's part of our thinking and rationale when we approach our careers and certainly from from my point of view I knew I had to like gain pace quickly so that once I got to the point where I felt comfortable, then I felt I could have children, which is kind of a sad state of affairs, I suppose you could say.

5:47But I think it's the truth. And I think many women across many industries, be it in finance or in other areas of business, face the same dilemmas. Can you walk me through what that looked like in real time? And I've heard you talk about just even going on a maternity leave and fearing what you'd come back to and if your job was still there. What does that look like in real time for you and experience like that? It's daunting for sure. I mean, actually, when I was first pregnant, I was working with Tom Ford at Gucci and there was actually no maternity policy in place. So Tom was thrilled. He was extremely generous.

6:26I would say very lovely in terms of, you know, whatever you need and, you know, we need you to travel less or whatever will help. But I was one of the pioneers in the design team to actually set a maternity policy in place at the time. There wasn't one there. and so I think that's sometimes what happens is that you know there's a lot of young women in the workforce but then when they get to a point where they do want to have family they have to make a choice do I carry on and pursue my career aggressively or do I step out for a moment and actually spend that time with my children. Marie you mentioned sort of some of the euphemisms that are used to describe the garments and fashions designed by women things like wearable, commercial Talk to me about how that's shown up for you along the way.

7:11And what does that say about biases? Because it's used pejoratively. When they say it's wearable, they're not meaning you can wear it and that's great. They're saying something else. I find it actually quite annoying because the reality is, you know, like I started my business because I was having, I had an eight-month-old and a six-year-old. And I couldn't travel anymore to work for big companies. So I started my store in New York and I didn't want to wear mom jeans. I still wanted to be me. I wanted to wear interesting clothes in basic fabrics that I was wearing, like denim, or I was in New York, you know, jersey, whatever it was.

7:47But it was never, you know, I think it was always, for me it was about making interesting clothes in basic fabrics. And I don't think that's boring. That's what people actually wear every day. And to be creative in your everyday life and actually have to give you that confidence to go out into the world is actually exciting. is not boring. How do you push back against it? Do you actually actively make it a part of your business strategy to push back against that idea that wearable is bad? Because you do have a reputation of integrity and wearability, but I think you've been successful because of it.

8:21So you must have been able to navigate that. I think the proof is in the pudding. It's like clients brought other clients. And I've never had to, in reality, push back. I just did my thing, and I kept my head down. And I think when you work in your own little bubble, and it is a bubble, you know, I didn't have a boss and it's not exactly been easy. It's been 28 years. But the reality is that you do sort of go with the flow. You create your own reality. So, you know, I'm not, I never wanted to be in fashion because I never wanted to be out of fashion. I always wanted to be on the sidelines so I could still do my thing.

8:58And it wasn't about a trend or a season, which is basically the antichrist of fashion, not to do trends, you know? Well, I love when you talk about this because there is, I think, in the rest of fashion, this like model muse fantasy. And you have a really funny way of, I'm trying to pull it out of you, a really funny way of talking about what the rest of the industry seems to think fashion should be. and you've said before that it really is more important for you to speak to a mature woman who actually can purchase at full price and yeah I think you know we have a lot of our clients are women of all ages from 30 to 80 and the reality is creative women and by that I don't mean just artists we have a ton of artists and you know like Cindy Sherman is one of our best clients and we have people like Michelle Obama who wears the clothes but the reality is that it's about being ageless and feeling ageless because I don't I mean I know I'm older but I don't feel like all of us are becoming invisible I'm still me in here somewhere and I think that's what we're trying to do with the clothing it still needs to feel youthful yeah and relevant absolutely Claire you've done something very interesting over your career which is that you've made it a point to hire women which they say is one of the solutions for the issues that we're seeing how easy is that to do and why did you decide to do that?

10:21It's really easy. There's a lot of choice out there. I think for me, it was one of the things that I felt I could really make a difference in terms of that. And I'm also someone, because I am a mother and I have had kind of quite a long standing career at this point, I would say that I've gone through the ups and downs of having to navigate pregnancy, childhood switching schools moving countries all of these things which I know are very difficult for women and not everyone woman is the same I can cope with a lot more stress than somebody else can and so I think I'm trying to be as understanding as I can but I really sort of try to tap into the talent more than anything and I think there's so many women out there with extraordinary talent and quite often because they may be a little shy or they might be less expressive that it's not seen and I've definitely sat in you know certain meetings with male colleagues where I've had to fight to get them to see that you know give this person a chance she's really got talent I really believe in her and that that actually has come through and really resonated later but at the time it's not obvious and I think often women need a little more time in order to flourish.

11:39And they need to feel safe in the space as well. I think it can be very challenging, a business environment. There's a lot of things at play in terms of both business and commerce, but creativity and also being relevant and also understanding the market and how things are shifting. So it's a lot of things to juggle along with your own life, which often you are the driver of your home life as well. So navigating those two things is difficult. but I feel always that it's very easy to find talent out there in women. And that being said, you've had this amazing career. Both of you have. You've done this.

12:15Your whole team at Unigo is like all women. So you basically have shown proof of concept commercially and creatively. Why do you think so few large fashion houses have followed suit? What do you think they think their reason is? I don't know. I mean, I think it's maybe because I make it a particular mission of mine to do that. And it's not that I don't discount men either. I'm just saying I will say that it's about building a rich mix. And I think women add so much richness into the conversation of clothing. And I think that from my point of view, I think we offer a completely different perspective, which is equally powerful and equally relevant.

12:57and I've certainly seen it through the long-standing relationships I've had with some of the celebrities and actors and clients that I've worked with over the years. They still are with me today so that stands for something. Yeah what about you Maria? Why don't you think people are following the other large fashion houses are saying look at this amazing business Maria has built. We could do something similar. What's in their head? I don't think they're looking at people like me to be honest the more interested in instagram followers and things like that the big houses where does that lead to i don't know there's a big disconnect in the fashion business and i think that's why the fashion business is not doing that great in the whole you know because there is that disconnect from what's instagram what is social media what is actual reality where is you know i have a team all women except for the accountant and you know and i say well where's our client going you know it's like where is she going I said well she might be getting old but you know I still want to look sensual I don't I don't want to feel like I'm dead yet but at the same time I don't want to feel ridiculous but I think there is this disconnect right now between things that are very much about marketing a handbag and they're very different types of businesses where people are just selling a handbag or a pair of glasses and then we're actually selling clothes so and there's very different models right now business in fashion You know, some people are just doing a bag and a pair of socks and a cap and a wallet.

14:27Other people, women are actually, all the women in New York that I know who have independent business there, whether it's Rachel Comey, Ulla Johnson, we've all been going about the same amount of time, 28 years, 30 years. But we're making clothes that women wear. We're not doing the handbag, you know, or the shoe. But we're selling clothes. I want to bring it back to sort of the point at the beginning, which is that we could be at a flashpoint, like something could start to shift. What would signal you one way or the other that we're in a moment of change, that this is not just another move the needle a little bit this way and then it moves back, but that this is we're meaningfully moving in the right direction, that women will start to have more roles.

15:08We saw an appointment at Hermes recently, Grace Wales Bonner. There are things that are happening. Do you see signs that more people, more brands will do what you two are doing? You also saw Louise Trotter of Patego Venator. There's also, you know, Sarah Burton, Givenchy. I mean, I think there needs to be more of that. I think it's great that people are realising that, you know, the client going in the store is a woman who has the income to spend and is not a kid who just wants a wallet with branding on it. And I think that's the difference. And I think they're beginning to realise they need a wardrobe.

15:46from your seat at Uniqlo with your all-woman team that's doing amazing things what would signal to you that more of that is to come? I think for me it's a sort of let's say percentage shift I mean right now there's only probably about 30 percent of the seats held by women so I'd like to at least have it be on equal footing of 50-50 so I think considering we've just had a big shift I don't think maybe enough of those seats were sort of shifted for it to signal a big change but I do feel positive like you said with Grace being at Hermes and a lot of you know Sarah and Louise like you mentioned being in these positions that sort of signal a greater message for all of us.

16:29Well I think you're doing what was described before us which is you're making the change you want to see right not being hopeless but doing the work that you can do from your part of the industry so thank you both. Thank you.

16:43Thank you.