Why Does Menswear All Look the Same?

0:07Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BLF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. And today we're going to be talking about menswear. It is old news by now to say that the category's been in something of a renaissance. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the word gorpcore, a word that barely existed three years ago, appear in our stories. Actually, I counted. Last year alone, we had six stories where I believe gorpcore was in the headline, so there's that. But it's safe to say we're getting to the point in every trend cycle where once cutting edge concepts have gone mainstream or close to it, and maybe people are getting a little tired of them.

0:47What felt revolutionary a couple of years ago feels safe and even boring now. And inevitably, speculation turns to what's next. On that note, with me today are two of our correspondents, Malik Morris and Leigh Takanashi, who have been covering every twist and turn in the menswear trend cycle. Hello, Malik, and hello, Leigh. Welcome to the Debrief Podcast. Hi, thank you so much for having us. This is wonderful. I'm so excited. It's a pleasure to be here, Brian. Thank you. Let's start with the good. When you two think of the brands and campaigns that really push boundaries and define the terms for the menswear boom, what comes to mind?

1:24Well, for me, I would say like Virgil Abloh as men's creative director, Louis Vuitton, that really felt like a watershed moment, sort of the connection he had to music and popular culture more broadly. You know, when he was appointed at LV in 2018, it really influenced that brand's aesthetic. It was like colorful and it was vibrant and it wasn't just like hoodies and sneakers. You know, he also played with proportions and suiting, you know, and he was also doing similar work at his brand, Off-White. And this wasn't sort of happening in a vacuum either. I don't know if it's sort of fair to say that Virgil influenced other designers during this time, but he was certainly like in really good company with other creatives at big houses.

2:05There was also Kim Jones at Dior, who was also pushing a sportier but smart look that had tons of energy. And at the time, there was also like Jeremy Scott at Moschino pushing the boundaries of like good taste with close ties to like pop culture and hip hop as well. But, you know, I do think that, you know, Virgil at Louis Vuitton sort of felt like the last time we saw someone really shake things up in menswear. and maybe at the risk of overestimating his impact, it felt like during his tenure at LV, other brands were being similarly audacious in statement-making in their work. For me, I don't necessarily think of specific brands or campaigns when thinking of like, what was the foundation of this menswear boom?

2:45I really think of just the larger culture of menswear, beginning with streetwear and just men's high fashion, going mass in like the early 2010s. So one part of that streetwear brand like Supreme becoming a part of mainstream pop culture. Granted that Supreme was nearly 20 years old in 2014, the brand exploded in popularity thanks to rappers like Tyler. And last month, there was a lot of chatter online about Tyler Carey for a friend of the campaign for Supreme's fall-winter 2024 collection. And a lot of Supreme fans saw it as a full circle moment. And the ill thing about this is, like, at 16, 17, 18, 19, like Supreme was like our Louis Vuitton.

3:27That was like our top of the line. And there is this really great story that dives further into that, but it goes without saying that I think for a lot of millennials who were introduced to Supreme during that time, that was also their introduction to fashion at large. At the same time, they also had these highly influential menswear blogs like 4Pins covering menswear online, introducing an entire generation of consumers to Japanese brands like Capital, Vismin. At the same time, you also see pop culture stars like A$AP Rocky rapping about Raph Simmons, Rick Owens.

4:03I do think, you know, to Malik's point, that's Virgil Abel married those two sectors when he became the CD of LV in the late 2010s. You know, the explosive growth of Off-White being this brand that connected streetwear and high fashion. But I get the sense that a lot of what you're both talking about, and Malik, you alluded to this as well, is it was once groundbreaking and it's become calcified, in some cases even cliche. People throw around the term starter pack a lot when talking about a lot of the very same things that you mentioned here. Tell us more about that, Leigh. What is the starter pack and why has that become kind of shorthand for everything wrong with menswear right now?

4:41Don't worry, the term starter pack, I feel like comes from just internet memes I've been floating around for the past decade or so. It's almost like get the look post for fashion archetypes, so to speak. And the term was recently brought up in this viral I Hate Men's Real newsletter by Deez Links, where it's an anonymous writer points out how everyone's personal style can be reduced to a starter pack. And what the writer means by that is that many fashion foods follow prescribed brands, products, and just trends or styling cues to fit a certain aesthetic or trend, you know, take the outdoor clothing driven Gorpcore trend, for instance.

5:17To join that tribe, you have to wear a Gore-Tex Arctorex jacket. You have to wear a pair of Solomon sneakers to complete this Gorpcore starter kit or look, you know. Another example is this Opiumcore microtrend named after the music label created by the hip-hop star Playboy Cardi. For those unfamiliar with that microtrend, it's kind of like Gen Z's version of Street God from like the early 2010s, you know. With that look, it comes with wearing all black clothing from labels like Rick Owens, Balenciaga, and Chrome Hearts accessories. So while Star Packs do give this amazing visibility for some brands and helps popularize certain trends, it comes with creating, I think, this monolithic identities or monolithic identities within the menswear space.

5:58Yeah, I get the sense that it's not so much that people don't like the clothes or that the look has become dated, but that it's almost gone too mainstream. It's become almost too easy to access. It's about how it's packaged more than actually what is being packaged. Malik, you just wrote a great story about how a lot of these brands are approaching marketing and that there's a certain sameness, sort of almost a marketing starter pack that these brands are all using as well. Tell us about that. Yeah. So, I mean, to kind of go piggyback off what Leigh was saying that this idea of the way these things are packaged is actually just illustrative of what's sort of shifting in menswear.

6:37Like there's been this move away from the logo mania and the flashiness of what is deemed the streetwear era. And like, again, going back to like Virgil and that cohort and the brand sort of driving the discussion today, they really sort of adopted this image of like tailoring mixed with casual wear and sort of a modern take on like classic Americana. I'm thinking like loafers and jeans with a baseball cap, you know, with a cool logo on it or like ham collared dress shirts paired with like big pants and like sambas. You know, the one brand that really seems to be leading the charge here is Amelion Dorr.

7:10But a lot of menswear brands are sort of following that aesthetic of like sort of blending that tailoring and casual wear and neutral colors, whether it be the label about Blaine that I wrote about in that marketing story, or even some of these more like capital-left fashion brands like 18 East or Evan Canory or Stofa, many of whom are based in New York, they all do some sort of version of this approachably timeless, stylish, and handsome, but inoffensive look. And, you know, I just want to be clear, I dress this way, so I'm guilty of this as well. But it all feels more formulaic than it did in previous menswear eras.

7:48And going back to sort of like the starter pack look that has been around, but it was really solidified in that anonymous essay, I Hate Menswear, you know, really hitting on the idea that like avid menswear shoppers are in tribes and, you know, where they copy and paste easily replicable aesthetics. And brands like ALD, they play into that trope with these lookbooks that they send out, whether, you know, it's on social media, on their site, when they're launching a collection. And it's often like set in studios or against like plain or unassuming backdrops of like wood shelves. And the focus really is on like the styling of the clothes, rather than telling this sort of interesting story you know like even in a controversial but think of like you know Abercrombie and Fitch where like their ads were never about really the clothes it was about the image they wanted to project that inspires you know consumers to interpret the clothes however they see fit but the marketing playbook that AOD not necessarily pioneering but has been pushing and others brands have been following it doesn't lead to a lot of experimentation and it's sort of like if everything is good then nothing is great so everyone can dress well then no one is actually cool.

8:53It seems like it's working though. I mean, no one seems to be suffering for the fact that it's yet another lookbook with all the brand codes you just described. So is boring working, I guess is the question. Well, I mean, yeah, these brands are in a way appealing to like the lowest common denominator. They're making it like super easy for consumers to understand how to buy and style their stuff. And that is leading to loss of sales, especially in the social media era where everyone is so visible and everyone wants to be front and center and they're leaving themselves to be ridiculed. So they want to look their best all the time.

9:28But I think sort of a caveat to that, I'm not sure if these consumers will be loyal to these brands in the long term, if they're just buying into like a trendy and easy to copy aesthetic rather than buying into a brand's story and their lore. Like that compelling storytelling and that myth-making is what keeps brands like Ralph Lauren and Armani and Brunella Cuccinelli top of mind for consumers across decades, even if those brands never actually make radical adjustments to their silhouettes or their styling or even their marketing. Yeah, I feel like in the case of brands like ALD and Supreme, the long game for them is becoming like a heritage label.

10:06So I think that means committing to this aesthetic, even if it becomes stale, even if it becomes boring through like waves of time, you know, like I think we'll fall out of love with Supreme for a little bit, but they have such a distinct point of view that I feel like they'll always have a core consumer who is going to look towards that brand as their version of Ralph Lauren, as their version of Americana, which is defined by things like subcultures like skateboarding, hip hop, and all those other sort of niche communities that Supreme touches. That might sometimes be the big thing that everyone wants to be a part of and wants to be down with.

10:43And that might become a thing that only their core customer is going to appreciate. So I do think it's about committing to that story or to that perspective for the long run in those cases. But in terms of like sportswear brands, like an Arc Turex or Salmon, I think it's something that like that consumer, the street style consumer or the men's wear consumer, the fashion forward consumer, you can't invest too much into that as well. You know, you have to sort of like take lessons from a brand like Nike and not put all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. And to be sure to also focus on innovation and the consumer to actually use as your product of sports.

11:21I think it's about balancing both those things. We'll be right back after this with more of The Debrief.

11:34Leigh, you just wrote a brand of brand that shows how fickle menswear customers' loyalty can be. Tell us what happened to Off-White. For sure. Well, Off-White's troubles really begin with Virgil Abloh's tragic past in 21. When that happened, the brand wasn't even a decade old yet. However, even though Off-White was powered by this caramersic person on the wheel founder, Virgil Abloh, It was still a brand that was named after the color of a blank canvas, or how Virgil put it, defined a gray area between black and white. While that slogan can be interpreted in many different ways, I've always felt like most of us interpreted it as this brand is able to have one foot in the world of luxury, one foot in the world of streetwear.

12:13So what we saw after Able's tragic passing was this incredibly influential streetwear slash luxury brand that stepped far too deep into the luxury space when LV also became a majority stakeholder of the brand in 2021. We saw its core customers, the ones who fell in love with the brand through sneakers and streetwear culture, feel shut out from a push into upmarket capital F fashion. That led to soaring inventory levels, confused core consumer and wholesale partners just dropping the label completely. All while New Guards Group is going through this downward spiral of Farfetch that didn't stop until it was saved by the South Korean e-commerce job Coupang in December 2023.

12:54free. Yeah, I think Off-White, I mean, in a sense, they did what Malik was saying a lot of these brands probably need to do, which is to tell a story. And the problem was it wasn't the story their customers wanted to hear, and there wasn't a new audience for it. And it looks like now, maybe with their reset that the CEO told you about, they're looking for their next story. Yeah, for sure. And there's Off-White CEO, Cristiano Fagnani. He's someone who's been a part of Off-White Story since Nike's groundbreaking, the 10 collaboration in 2016. You know, he worked on that collaboration with Virgil himself.

13:29And while he was a Nike before coming into Off-White as New Guards Group's CMO, I say all this because like he's a CEO who understands what Off-White Story was, you know, what culturally Off-White was under Virgil. And a large part of the brand's repositioning or reset that we're seeing this year is getting back to that core cultural customer you know someone who loved off right under the cultural lens of streetwear who likely entered every off-white nike drop who probably had virgil avlo's instagram post notifications on you know someone who learned about this brand through the hip-hop artist virgil associated with like the asap mob or little uzi vert so i feel like that is the biggest part of off-white's reset or just like i guess they're re repositioning as a brand as a whole, you know, along with like, you know, growing product categories that the brand has to broaden because it has a mostly male consumer base, you know, reconnecting with key part, wholesale partners in the United States, where I believe 24 % of their business is located in, and also exploring just exciting partnerships again with partners like Nike.

14:38Malik, when we're looking at brands that maybe have a different problem than Off-White, they're more in the category where they're stuck in that rut. They're a little too like all the other brands that are chasing this new menswear customer. I mean, what is the secret to reinventing yourself there and to standing out from that crowd? Going back to like the story that I wrote, sometimes it's just like getting sort of ahead of it. Like in the story, we talk about this brand about Blink and they're sort of this London-based brand that has been quite candid in admitting that sort of ALD is one of their primary inspirations.

15:10And you see it, you know, from the prepping me streetwear clothes or the look books set against these like nondescript backdrops that are nearly identical to ALD. You know, the brand's ethos and its aesthetic can be either interpreted as a reverent homage or sort of less generously simply derivative. But, you know, I ended up speaking to, you know, one of the co-founders, Sam Jack Henderson, and he was open about that having been a strategy they took on in the beginning because they saw it was working for ALD. And, you know, it worked for them too. You know, lookbooks for them went viral and they've been doubling sales year over year, but they also sort of recognize that they need to break out of that static lookbook phase.

15:50You know, we actually cited some stats in the story from Euromonitor that estimates global menswear sales can reach like$498 billion in 2025, but that's actually a downgrade from a previous estimate of$524 billion. And part of that is, you know, luxury slowdown and macroeconomic uncertainty, but it does show that menswear is not immune to like market whims and you know you have a brand like about blank that's sort of having a sense of all of this and recognize that they need to break out of the static lookbook phase and they're now you know like designing collections around like certain vacation spots like they had a collection that was inspired by like homo and they actually shot their um campaign there for that collection and you know right now the engagement on that imagery isn't quite the same as like the bland lookbooks just yet but it's laying the foundation for them to create more of a lore around their brand sort of for years to come, as I was talking about, you know, again, going back to that myth-making.

16:47And what was really fun about including them in the story is they exemplify this sort of brand that recognized an inertia in the market and a sameness in the market and sort of the negative effects that can come from that and sort of how, you know, brands can benefit from feeding into it initially, but that there needs to be a time where they diverge and differentiate. And are they also changing how they try to reach those customers instead of just releasing the lookbook? Are they taking this new, more dynamic imagery and trying different marketing tactics as well? I think for now, the channels are the same, their site, social media.

17:25And that's sort of like a broader conversation of like where brands need to go. Actually, you were seeing a bit of a resurgence in general of like print catalogs and some brands even like launching their own magazines and things of that nature. But I do think that that's still sort of static. The marketing channels are still very much social media driven, sort of digital driven. You know, I'm speaking to brands all the time. I'm always like, well, why aren't you doing more like television ads on streaming TV and things of that nature? So I do think that the channels are still a little stale, but the imagery is where they're trying to, at least the starting point for them to shake things up.

17:58Let's talk also about collaborations, which feel like another one of these tactics that these brands have been using that was once quite groundbreaking and very exciting for consumers and now is just a cliche. It's part of that starter pack for emerging menswear brands to do these sort of partnerships and to find like a big mainstream brand to do it with and some really cool underground brands and build your reputation through these. At the same time, we're seeing more of them than ever, it feels like. What's the future of those? Leigh, what do you think? I think there will always be space for collaborations to exist in the marketplace.

18:31And I think it's always will be a good tool for brands to get like a different set of consumers. You know, I think about the big ones like in the streetwear space, like kind of recent years, like Supreme and Cortez or Cortez and Nike is a huge one that was met with massive levels of excitement and hype. And I think people found it to be a collaboration that was sort of like a passing of the torch between one of the legacy streetwear brands that define what that whole genre is and a new one that's sort of reinterpreting it into new kind of fresh and almost like rebellious perspective of its own right but i do feel like there was such an influx of collapse throughout like the late 2010s early 2020s that you have to really find the one that is like the diamond in the rough so to speak and i remember i spoke to one asian retailer named invincible who was owned by this person named michael vincent vincent was someone who used to work at vape in the 2000s and And he was telling me how today collaborations aren't necessarily what gets his own customer excited because the consumer now is more discerning about such things.

19:37You know, they're not necessarily going to just grab something because it's this somewhat trendy brand collaborating with this like larger company or another trendy brand. You know, it has to sort of fill a space in their wardrobe. It can't necessarily just be just another co-branded t-shirt or whatever it is. So I think it's really just about crafting something that breaks the noise, kind of offers something new, but isn't just like something that's just two things slapped together and just trying to blow it up out of proportion. Yeah. And I would just add that to me, it seems like it has to hit two markers.

20:13Either it's like you see the collaboration, like, oh, that makes sense. These two brands together or it's disorienting, but in an incredibly exciting way. like I think of like a Wales Bonner collaborating with Adidas on the Samba that was actually kind of both where it's like oh that makes sense for them to work together but also wait why are they working together but the design is so beautiful and it's like so interesting and unique this sort of like sleek sneaker that people are wearing in a very dressy way that's represented by this brand Wales Bonner that really like kind of classic in like her approach to tailoring and also I think another one recently that seems to have broken through the noise as well was like Bodhi and Nike.

20:53And obviously Nike's had a slew of issues and, you know, our amazing intrepid reporter, Daniel Yall Miller has been covering that end to end. But they seem like they kind of broke through with the Bodhi collaboration. And Bodhi also has a sort of iconoclastic take on menswear and tailoring and bold patterns. And it's all, you know, from these sort of vintage fabrics and feels like it's all like one of a kind. And they have a sneaker that kind of looks like a cleat. But it was so off-putting in a way that Bodhi is off-putting, but it also felt like beautifully sporty in the way that Nike can be at its best.

21:29So I do feel like when you hit those markers, it can work and it can resonate with a consumer and especially like a fashion insider consumer, you know, who influences the end customer and, you know, lends fashion credibility to these brands as well. Oh, yeah. To add on to that, I also think collaborations play a vital role in basically helping consumers who might not have the income for some of these more pricier menswear brands that are independent and sell their wares for$800 to$1 ,000 to access them for affordable price if they came up with a partner like H &M or if they team up with a partner like Paxson.

22:06So where do we think menswear is headed next? Very broad question, I know. But I'm curious if it feels like we're in a moment where these are the brands that are going to be with us for some time. They're going to evolve into heritage brands. Or does it feel like a lot of these brands are going to be, I don't want to say off-white with swept aside, but they're going to be diminished by something entirely different that comes next and supplants it? Obviously, it's so hard to tell. The one thing that I do think that brands should think about is just like being themselves. Like, who are you? Why do you exist in the market?

22:40Why should consumers continue to choose you at a time when they have so much choice? And maybe not being so hung up on being of the moment or being cool. Like, I feel like, you know, there are brands that feel like they've been operating under this philosophy and they've been around for a while, like Rick Owens or Tom Brown, that, you know, going against the grain from the outset and continue to do so. but have shown that you can have staying power by, as even Malay was saying earlier, like staying true to who you are, but knowing who you are. And I feel like there are certainly brands that are sort of going against the grain now in more obvious ways.

23:15You know, there's not a lot of them, but there's one brand called Kid Super. And they have like a more whimsical take on tailoring and they do like comedy shows and little runway shows. And it actually doesn't always land with or lead to like industry validation in the way that Rick and Tom have received over the years. but KidSuper isn't boring and they have a unique point of view and they understand who their customers are and they understand how and why they should continue to show up for them. And again, who knows if like the reception of that brand could shift as its aesthetic point of view.

23:45Matures over time, you know, but KidSuper is definitely one example of a brand that diverges from market norms right now. And I think could have staying power if they continue to engage their customers and continue to show why they're important and, you know, why they should matter in the market. Truthfully, I think it's impossible to know where menswear is headed next. Generally though, despite what has been said about starter packs, I think menswear consumers today are on a personal style journey that places emphasis on individuality. So to really break out this space, a product needs also to be distinguished by strong storytelling.

24:20Yes, a lot of labels can copy a brand's popular marketing playbook, but they can't copy this perspective each one brings to the table. So I believe that's why brands like Cortez or Denim Tears are so popular in the streetwear space today. I mean, these are both black-owned brands that aren't only releasing hype logo apparel by telling stories that have been culturally appropriated by the larger streetwear industry for decades. In Denim Tears' case, the product is quite radical, controversial, and thought-provoking at times. If I could compare it to anything, it's almost like Seditionaries by Vivian Westwood and Malcolm McLaren, if you will.

24:53But the ability to create a larger conversation through closing in streetwear is what makes that brand particularly intriguing right now. In New York, I also see emerging brands like Awake, Brigade, and 18 East thrive because they touch upon New York subcultures in ways that other New York-based streetwear brands haven't before. I'm speaking mostly about brands within the streetwear space because that's what I know best, but generally when I think about Supreme, off-wiring the perseverance of this larger streetwear category, I feel what's been proven regardless of where menswear is trending is that creating a dialogue with the cultures you're inspired by speaking to and aligning with is key.

25:31That's why I personally find designers like Martine Rose or Luar are so captivating. Any brand can make good product, but what makes a brand or a men's wear brand particularly really good is having a great story that's just worth telling. I think that's an excellent point to end on. Leigh, Malik, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much, Brian. Please be sure to check out Malik's article, Why Menswear is Getting a Marketing Refresh, and Lay's articles, Can Off-White Get Back on Track and How the Streetwear Customer is Evolving.

26:05These and other stories can be found at businessoffashion.com and are available to BOF professional subscribers only. You can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies, mixed and mastered by Eric Bria. and I'm Brian Baskin. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thank you so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.