Why Fragrance Is Fashion’s Newest Digital Frontier

0:00Daniela Morosini: With the sun starting to come back out, I'm ready to move on from winter clothes. I want to bring my personality back into what I'm wearing and that is very much the energy Macy's is leaning into right now. It's all about a spring reset, playing around with colour, shape, texture and details in a way that makes your everyday outfits just feel a bit fresher. I also love this idea that one new denim shape can completely change the whole feel of your wardrobe, whether that's a barrel leg, wide leg or something, you know, kind of cropped. and if you're in the mood for something a little dressier, Macy's is also leaning into lace, sheer layers and other spring details that feel modern but still wearable.

0:39Daniela Morosini: When you've got a second, check out Macy's.

0:50Daniela Morosini: Hello and welcome to The Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into our most popular BOF professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler-Young. And I'm executive editor Brian Baskin. We are living in a golden age of fragrance. Hardly a day goes by without the launch of a new indie scent or the latest offering from a big luxury brand. And whole empires have been built on formerly niche categories like body mists. But the way people discover and shop for scent is changing fast. More than half of fragrance purchases in the U.S.

1:25Daniela Morosini: now happen online. and that share is likely to continue growing in the coming years. At the same time, brands are changing how they sell fragrance too. They are reframing scent as something closer to a fashion accessory than a beauty product. Perfume doesn't just make you smell nice, it's now a storytelling device and even part of a consumer's fragrance wardrobe. Joining us today are BOF beauty correspondents Daniela Morissini and Rachel Griffiths. Daniela recently reported on the challenges of selling fragrance online and Rachel explored how brands are increasingly positioning scent as a fashion accessory.

1:59Daniela Morosini: Daniela, Rachel, welcome to The Debrief.

2:01Rachael Griffiths: Thanks for having me. Hi, thank you for having us. It's my first time, so long-time listener, first-time caller.

2:06Daniela Morosini: We're excited to have you here. We love that. So Daniela, why don't we start with you? Your story called out a very, I thought it was a surprising stat. Nielsen data shows that around 55 % of fragrance sales in the U.S. now happen online. What changed? Why is fragrance so decisively in the digital channel right now?

2:25Rachael Griffiths: Well, I think there's two things. I think a fragrance sales are definitely trending online, but also just all beauty sales are trending online. Like this isn't something that's only happening in fragrance and isn't happening in other categories. But I think that fragrance, you know, it used to be sold primarily at least prestige fragrances through department stores. And I'm sure you guys have talked about the decline of department stores and other episodes of the debrief. Once or twice. It's a recurring theme.

2:50Daniela Morosini: Yes.

2:50Rachael Griffiths: It's come up once or twice. Yeah. Um, so as that has softened and people have got more comfortable with online shopping, whether that is literally like going to a brand or retailer.com or just like shopping on TikTok shop or Amazon or what have you, it's kind of natural that fragrance has sort of started to bubble up there. I think the other thing, and I know we're going to spend some time sort of chewing on this is that fragrance has historically been a difficult category to sell because so much of the marketing around it, it's like that gap between like the signifier and the signified, right?

3:21Rachael Griffiths: How do you explain to somebody at home, whether it's a TV ad or you're writing about it in a magazine, what a fragrance really smells like in a way that people can actually follow and understand? And I think that short form video content in particular has been quite good for bridging that gap and getting people at home to know, oh, if I buy this perfume, I'm going to feel like X or Y.

3:42Daniela Morosini: And I understand there's also new uses for AI to convey some of this as well, right?

3:49Rachael Griffiths: Absolutely. Joe Malone, the Estee Lauder-owned fragrance brand, have a AI scent advisor.

3:54Daniela Morosini: Ooh. I'm glad you mentioned that because, Sheena, I've really enjoyed being your co-host for this last couple years. And I was thinking I'd buy you something nice. So I thought I would ask Joe Malone's AI scent advisor, what would be a nice fragrance I could buy for my podcast co-host, Sheena? Let's see what they say.

4:19Rachael Griffiths: I'm so excited to hear what they say. E to P now stands for odor podcast.

4:27Daniela Morosini: Obsessed. Oh, wow. The advisor already responded. The advisor says that's such a lovely thought to choose a fragrance for your podcast co-host Sheena. To help me find something truly special for her, could you tell me a little about the types of scents she generally enjoys? For instance, is she drawn to fresh, floral, woody, or perhaps more oriental aromas? Hmm. Hmm. Well, let's see how well I know she knows. I'm going to go with floral because she wears a lot of prints with those kind of features on it. Oh, it responded. That's a lovely start. Floral scents are so beautiful and versatile. When you think of what she enjoys about floral fragrances, is it the sweetness, the freshness, or perhaps a rich opulent quality that truly captivates her?

5:09Daniela Morosini: I think we all know what I'm going to pick there. She is drawn to rich opulent florals. and oh it's thinking it's thinking uh oh it literally said ah rich and opulent florals are truly captivating that tells me quite a bit oh now to help me understand a little more about her style does she tend to prefer scents that are traditionally marketed to women men or something more unisex i think i'm gonna go with more feminine scents i don't want to stereotype here but that's a perfect answer i'm i'm so impressed all right let's see oh oh here's the results Based on your co-host's preferences for rich, opulent, and feminine floral scents, it recommended Jasmine, Sambac, and Marigold, Tuberose, Angelica.

5:53Daniela Morosini: You can tell I'm a real fragrance expert here. Velvet Rose and Oud.

5:57Rachael Griffiths: Oh. You know what, Sheena? I've smelt that last one, and I really could actually see that on you. Yes.

6:04Daniela Morosini: That does sound nice. I love Oud-based fragrances. That's amazing. I'm quite impressed. All you have to do now is put in your credit card, Brian. Now have that right away. Oh, no. The browser crashed. Oh, no. All right. So what did we learn here? Daniella, tell us what just happened here.

6:22Rachael Griffiths: Well, we got a wonderful insight into Sheena's Fragrance Psyche. Well, I think that that tool was better than I expected because it was quite flattering, right? It gave us a lot of compliments like AI often does. but I feel like it are some questions that a person at a fragrance counter would ask you. The only thing is I feel like, and this is an AI problem as much as it is an in-person shopping problem, is we don't necessarily know the answers to these questions because what someone might think of as a woody fragrance versus actually being a woody fragrance, I think there's quite a big gap there.

6:58Rachael Griffiths: And I remember when I used to work at a fashion magazine, I was sent on a training course with a bunch of other junior reporters that was hosted by the fragrance foundation in the UK and we were trained how to write about fragrance because it's just so difficult and all of the language is kind of like wine you know people think they like one thing and then you you let them smell it or taste it or whatever and it turns out they like something else and I think that's why short form video and online shopping is so great for fragrance because you can kind of strip away all of that kind of jargon and just talk about how it makes you feel, which is what people buy fragrance based on, I think.

7:34Rachael Griffiths: I think it also highlighted something really interesting because it talks about the fashion fragrance relationship because, Brian, the first thing that you thought about were the type of floral prints that Sheena wears and then you connected that into a scent that she might enjoy. So I think that was quite an interesting connection that you made in real time.

7:51Daniela Morosini: That's so interesting. And by the way, I was thinking as Danielle was describing sort of like the ways this does it well and some of the downsides that could crop up like what is the worst that can happen if a consumer picks something that they think is woody or amber or oud and it shows up and it's not that do brands worry about that well i guess they don't want returns right

8:12Rachael Griffiths: and i guess if you buy it online you could theoretically send it back or someone just being turned off the brand altogether if they still think that they like woody fragrances and what they actually like is something else i know some brands are trying to get around this by if you buy online, you can pay like 50 bucks or 20 bucks and you get like a little, little vials. So you can try a few of them at home. And then the 50 bucks that you spent, you get as like store credit. So you can buy the one that you like, but it's a really, really difficult circle to square.

8:41Daniela Morosini: Yeah. I mean, just my, my own perspective is, I mean, Joe Malone, I've actually like shopped, you know, for gifts at Joe Malone before. And this reminded me a lot of when I was in the Covent Garden location, actually. And, and someone just, you know, as you could tell from how I pronounced a lot of those words. Like I'm not a fragrance expert by any means. And like someone very kindly just kind of walked me through, like, what do you think this person likes? And, you know, kind of did that same decision tree in person. And this was a very pleasant experience. And kind of like Sheena said, you know, it's possible like they would get it and be like, I don't like this.

9:13Daniela Morosini: But I think if they're a fan of Jill Malone, you know, I think probably almost anything, frankly would probably you know hit some minimum level and and it was a nice shopping experience

9:27Daniela Morosini: should we talk a little bit about rachel's about the so something else i thought was interesting rachel and your reporting around you know this this trend of not just fragrance layering but also like how consumers are building like a wardrobe can we talk a little bit about how that's different because i also feel like as a millennial gen z makes up words for things that we've been doing for 20, 30 years. And it's like, and they make it, they call it a trend, but what is a fragrance wardrobe and how is that affecting how brands sell and communicate online about fragrance today?

9:59Rachael Griffiths: Well, a fragrance wardrobe is effectively your fragrance collection. And I think that the selection of the word wardrobe again, hints at that fashion to fragrance relationship, because the same way you'd have a wardrobe of clothes, you have a wardrobe of fragrances. But I think back to, you know, the shelfie and people taking pictures of the bottles of skincare or makeup that they have. It's essentially just your fragrance collection, but it's become a means for people to talk about it online via TikTok and short form content. And I think that's why it's really taken off and fragrance layering also, because people are really interested in niche fragrances and there's nothing more niche than when you layer certain things in a way that nobody else has.

10:35Rachael Griffiths: You create your own signature scent. And I think that's become a really powerful tool for people to build communities around these things. I know Fragrantica, which is an online fragrance message board and selling website. People are discussing, you know, what pairs with what and which smells good with this. And then also it's become a marketing tool for brands. So recently the Body Mist brand Fleur have started to release their fragrances in duos so that if you want to get involved in this fragrance wardrobe or this fragrance layering, but you don't necessarily have the expertise, they've already done it for you.

11:04Rachael Griffiths: So it's an interesting way to educate, but it's also an interesting way to increase basket size as well.

11:09Daniela Morosini: That's interesting that a whole product was designed oriented around layering like that. Does it feel like this is a passing trend or does it feel like the industry really is reorienting itself around that idea?

11:21Rachael Griffiths: I personally think that it's here to stay, but I think that maybe it will be the way that brands market and message. And maybe when they talk about fragrance profiles, they'll say pairs well with this or pairs well with that. And maybe that's a necessary not necessarily a product but a scent that it pairs well with so you can go away and mix and match it with other scents in their collection fragrance layering has also been quite a big thing in the middle east i think for a really really long time it's sort of like a newer thing that we're doing in the west but there's like other ways that brands are getting into it and joe malone do this as well not that this is the joe malone hour but like you can buy that that fragrance we just picked for sheena which is coming in the mail tomorrow you could also get like the shower gel version of that and then the body lotion version of that.

12:04Rachael Griffiths: So you can kind of like layer up throughout your routine. And there's like a fragrance brand here in the US called Cyclar and they do like a balm that you put on after you've showered and that's meant to help lock in the scent even more. So people are also layering the scent by buying other kinds of scented products rather than just like traditional perfumes.

12:23Daniela Morosini: Although I guess when we're talking about fragrance as a fashion accessory and these trends, I mean, fashion accessories also come and go? I mean, handbag sizes change, like silhouettes change, you know, just ask me that question again, like is this whole idea that everyone's obsessed with fragrance and everything they put on their body or near their body having a signature scent, is that a trend or is that, you know, a permanent shift?

12:46Rachael Griffiths: I don't think that smelling unique will ever go out of style. Cause I think there's like a little bit of exclusivity of like, oh yeah, I smell good and you don't know what it is. and maybe I'm not even going to tell you what it is.

12:59Daniela Morosini: It's so interesting because as you both were talking about this, I was thinking about department stores. Do you know, like, maybe 20 years ago, or maybe more recent than that, the idea of beauty was you would sell the whole face. So you went to the MAC counter and you bought every single thing from MAC. That was their job. I feel like fragrance has a similar trend. It was like you had a signature scent in the 90s and the 2000s. So what is this kind of shift, if it sticks, due to like a Misty or or Chanel number five? Because it wasn't at all built on getting people to like, this is your signature scent and you don't deviate from this.

13:30Daniela Morosini: Do they change their strategy in the layering era?

13:34Rachael Griffiths: Yeah, and I think that's why they've, some of these brands are like extending their product franchises. So they'll have the Hero scent, like the Misty or the Chanel number five, and then they'll do these other variations of it. So either they'll add on like a hair perfume that's a little bit different, or they'll do like the classic fragrance, but it's like the light version or the oud version. So trying to keep people still shopping with them by just kind of putting all these different twists on the original thing. Yeah. And I think Dior have just done this. They've just released an intense version of the really classic Chador scent.

14:05Rachael Griffiths: And we've seen these intense perfumes have just really astounding success. I think of Amourage, which we recently covered, they had 66 % surge in revenue last year. And that was a quarter of that was driven by their intense fragrances. So it's, you know, whether it's releasing a new format, such as a solid perfume or a gel perfume, or whether it's introducing a slightly stronger scent of the same thing that people have come to know and love is an interesting way to keep people returning to you to buy perfume.

14:32Daniela Morosini: Is there an education component here? Because I'm thinking of this is, I mean, I'm not trying to compare Axe Body Spray to Chanel No. 5 necessarily, but that brand kind of like had a problem that like, you know, teen boys had no idea how to use it. And I imagine there probably is an element here, like layering on fragrances so they don't smell terrible in combination is, is an art. Right. And I, if it's quite new in the West, at least, I mean, how do you get consumers to wear your scent without smelling terrible?

15:04Rachael Griffiths: Well, that's pretty subjective. I think it's, it's just so subjective, isn't it? Because I mean a lot of these perfumes they're all just nice and pleasant and so if you mix them together they stay nice and pleasant but also I think it just comes down to personal opinion like I don't know if you guys have ever gotten in like an elevator or on the subway with someone who's wearing a lot of fragrance and you're like oh I need to move a few seats down or I need to move away a little bit.

15:31Daniela Morosini: That has never happened to me let me just be clear I don't agree with this at all that there's any way to go wrong. She who smelt it dealt it is uh I believe how it goes. again talking about Chanel number five I think that you can go wrong with I think the example that Brian mentioned and that's I hope that's not shady but there is the sense that you both are talking about and writing about are pretty elevated like it's very hard I think in my humble opinion to do this really wrong right like unless someone's very sensitive or like allergic

15:58Rachael Griffiths: there's also communities that are actually springing up around this very purpose how to do this correctly like I mentioned Fragrantica has entire messaging boards where people will discuss the types of things that pair well together. But also I read recently that perfume clubs are popping up across Europe and across the world where people come together and they discuss the types of things that do blend well and maybe that don't blend well. And it's become something that's grown the popularity even more because maybe if you do get it wrong or you get it right, you can then return to the community.

16:26Rachael Griffiths: You can share a hack that you've figured out or two cents that maybe another person hasn't thought to put together.

16:31Daniela Morosini: Oh, I love that.

16:32Rachael Griffiths: And also it's interesting that you mentioned Axe because they just did an entire program around that they've redone the mist nozzle on their bottle so that people can't overuse the deodorant and so that people don't smell like deodorant. And they've also, they've introduced fine fragrances as well. So I think that even Axe are kind of responding to this shift in the market.

16:52Daniela Morosini: All right. I have to see what the Axe fine fragrances are called. Axe fine fragrance. Oh, I found them. I found them. It is, oh, they have black vanilla, cherry spritz, and blue lavender.

17:03Rachael Griffiths: Those are not super masculine.

17:05Daniela Morosini: that surprises me no I've been seeing this a lot with like old spice mother like the old school lower priced like you know the fragrances where they're doing I think one version of updating is to kind of get away from the traditionally masculine framing of men's cologne versus the women's um fragrance I mean I don't know my son I've been buying some of this stuff he's going to be 12 and I've been experimenting I think it's it's a good tool to get young people to discover what they like at a good price. So that's my, that is my about face on Axe and Old Spice. Well, that's a great question. Cause like I, you know, when, when I was growing up, you heard perfume and cologne.

17:45Daniela Morosini: I don't think I ever heard the word fragrance and now it's the reverse. I never, like, I don't know that your stories that you wrote even use those words, unless we use the word fragrance four times in a sentence and needed something to swap in. Like, is that signifying that these barriers are gone? I mean, maybe Rachel talk about those, the fragrance clubs you were talking about. I mean, are these mostly women, mostly men? I mean, what's the makeup there?

18:08Rachael Griffiths: No, I don't think so at all. I think there's been a real gender neutral response to the way that people respond to fragrances. And that's why the marketing now, I think, is a lot more focused on the scents themselves and not necessarily this is a woman's scent, this is a man's scent. I think that there definitely has become a little bit more of a openness there so i think this also links back to fashion imagery and the way that these things are being translated and the way that these things are being marketed because you don't necessarily need to be of a particular gender to respond to a certain fashion house or certain fashion imagery and so i definitely do think you're right in the sense that like notions of gender are maybe a little less intense as they once were but then i do think about some fragrances such as savage which we talk about a lot in the beauty team which does seem to be very much you know the man's date night fragrance so there is still an element of it remaining

19:01Daniela Morosini: we'll be back with more of the debrief right after this

19:08Daniela Morosini: can we talk a little bit about the storytelling and by way of packaging like how that's sort of playing into this because if you're doing more selling digitally a lot of this has to do with the visual packaging fit and i know your story rachel got into this a little bit i think packaging

19:22Rachael Griffiths: is still really really important especially when you think about fragrance as an accessory there's things such as the solid fragrances come and Cydia the brand that I wrote about they come in little compacts which are quite weighty but they also look quite nice for you to slink out of your bag and maybe people will ask you questions about it and it's also that idea of the fragrance wardrobe that people really like to take pictures of the packaging there is really important and the way that the perfume looks is still really important I think of Parfum de Mali which is you know just such a powerhouse of fragrance and one of the most iconic things is the way that the bottles are all rococo inspired so I definitely do think that as fragrance continues to become accessorized the way that it looks will remain important even though we are like buying them more online.

20:04Rachael Griffiths: And I think also the way the packaging looks it communicates something about the scent itself and how it's supposed to make you feel so do you guys know Paco Rabanne One Million? Do you know what that one looks like? It looks like a gold ingot or like a gold bar So that perfume is made by Pooj. So that's the parent company. And I remember talking to the CEO of Pooj last year and he mentioned this fragrance. And he said, we released this fragrance in 2008. So the year of the global financial crisis. And obviously the economy was really weighing on people's minds. And he was like, we purposely designed this bottle to look like a gold ingot, to look like a gold bar, to kind of signify this fragrance will bring you money.

20:42Rachael Griffiths: This fragrance will make you feel rich.

20:44Daniela Morosini: How much of those did you buy, Brian? Did you buy a few? Well, no, funny story about that. I moved to New York that year and my train station had giant Paco Rabanne ads for that fragrance for the next two years. Like they literally just like bought out the entire, every column, every wall of that station selling that exact fragrance high to the financial crisis. Absolutely true. People do buy things just, I have bought perfumes before I smell them because the bottle was so nice. I'm like, I don't even care how this smells. It's just going to look pretty.

21:15Rachael Griffiths: I think Pouge does this really well because they also make the Gautier fragrances. You know, there's like the Le Male, which looks like a torso. And then you have the like the woman one as well. And they also have Carolina Herrera, this perfume called Good Girl, which is so successful. And it looks like a super, super high heel stiletto.

21:32Daniela Morosini: I have one of those on my desk. They sent us one when I first joined BOF. And that is literally on my desk. You can go look at it, Daniela.

21:40Rachael Griffiths: Oh, no, I think I've spritzed it. I have too. I have to.

21:44Daniela Morosini: Sorry, Brian. I'm going to pick it up. It'll be empty.

21:49Rachael Griffiths: But that's obviously like, that's a pretty bold choice because it's like, are you saying this thing smells like a foot? Right. But no, it's meant to be like attention grabbing and glamorous. Like you're going out on the town and you're going out dancing or whatever.

22:01Daniela Morosini: So I have a perfect way to close out this episode. When we were talking about Axe, I went on their website and they also have a fragrance selector, just like Joe Malone. Joe Malone will look up every minute, I'm sure. And it's under a minute. find your signature scent should i shop for myself this time as their target audience no i think you

22:17Rachael Griffiths: should shop for sheena again for fairness you know what i'm gonna shop for how about sheena's son

22:21Daniela Morosini: who i've met once oh my gosh this is gonna be good yeah all right so first they ask what's your vibe sneakerhead trendsetter city chic sun sun chaser or cozy gamer i'm gonna go with sneakerhead he's a Cozy Gamer. Oh, Cozy Gamer. Okay. What's your perfect travel spot? Tokyo, Italy, Bali, Berlin, or Smoky Mountains? Definitely Berlin. Tokyo, Tokyo. Tokyo. Okay. How bold do you go with your fragrance? Low key, loud and proud, fresh and fierce, tropical or warm? Fresh and fierce. You want fresh and fierce? All right. It's a guy with cucumbers on his eyes for some reason. Oh, gosh. All right. what's your signature style streetwear utility cool bold prints urban chic or gamer legend i guess we know the answer to that legend yeah all right uh now it's trying to get me to sign up for something and i'm skipping to the results it says he should have the black vanilla premium scent oh okay that sounds that would pair very well with your rose and oud joe malone i think the layering there would be beautiful.

23:28Daniela Morosini: Add it to cart. Beautiful land. Add it to cart. And on that note, I think we can call it a day here. Daniela, Rachel, thank you so much for joining us.

23:39Rachael Griffiths: Thank you so much. This is the most fun I think we've ever had doing one of these and we've done some silly things before. Yeah, thank you for having us. I can't wait to hear about what the fragrance layering smells like.

23:49Daniela Morosini: Oh, good Lord. Don't visit the New York office anytime soon. Updates to come. Updates to come. please be sure to check out Daniela and Rachel's fascinating coverage of all things fragrance at businessoffashion.com these and other stories are available to BOF professional subscribers only and you can find the links in the episode notes you've been listening to The Debrief produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria I'm Sheena Butler-Young and I'm Brian Baskin we'll be back next week with a new episode thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts

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