Why Robert Wun Ditched the Wholesale Model for Bespoke Creations

0:04Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BOF. podcast. It's Friday, November 7th. Soon after sharing his graduate work from the London College of Fashion Online, Hong Kong-born Robert Wun was approached by Joyce Boutique to buy his collection. So began the journey like so many other independent designers who found navigating the wholesale model challenging. So during the pandemic, Robert pivoted to serving clients with one-off customized designs with couture-level pricing. At that point, I wanted to start making collections that make sense to me. I realized that in order for me to have a strong business model in a wholesale or growing a brand, this is not the time yet.

0:50I can't do this all by myself. But if the brand needs to make sense, from now on, everything I create needs to have a responsibility not only for myself, but also for the message that I'm trying to relate to people. And I remember releasing it simply on Instagram. No show, nothing physical. The attraction it got and the clients we got from that as well, that people relate to that story. They feel connected to the work and they love the pieces. This week on the BOF podcast, I sit down with Robert to discuss his path from Hong Kong to London to Paris Couture Week and how he's building a client-first business that protects his creativity while staying commercially viable.

1:33Here's Robert Wun on the BOF podcast. Robert Wun, welcome to the BOF offices and welcome to the BOF podcast. Thank you for having me. I was telling your colleague how grand the entrance looks like. It feels like a hotel. It's not that grand. It's very grand. It's not that grand. We only recently moved in here earlier this year. I feel like we're still, we're so busy. I feel like we're just, we're still trying to set everything up. But it's beautiful. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's lovely to have you here. So we have a lot to discuss. I'm sure you know, we at BOF have been following your trajectory for quite some time.

2:14You have quite a lot of fans here on the team. But I want to start with your life growing up in Hong Kong. Okay. And I understand that traditional academics and athletics and all this stuff that may be young people in Hong Kong are pushed towards. That wasn't really your jam growing up. No, quite the opposite, right? I think what happened was, I think there's a traditional expectation, which I think it came with many different types of cultures while growing up. And in Hong Kong, obviously, with that traditional expectation where they have a kid, they wish them to be a doctor, a vet even, to be honest, just anything that actually makes sense that you will be called a professional and have a very good stable income.

3:02So when you lean more towards anything else, especially in the creative field, which is almost, is existing, you know, I think in the culture, but it's not considered something that would be safe or you can call it a profession or any types of things. So growing up, you always kind of have that pressure, no matter from my indirect family members or from the school or from the education system itself, right? So, yeah, I think with that in mind, it's kind of crazy how stubborn I got because of that, you know. Was stubborn in what way? I just knew that I wouldn't be able to get to anywhere they wish that I would have gone to, right?

3:42How did you know that from a young age? Like, how did you just, you had this conviction? So I think my direct family actually gave me the least amount of pressure. If, like, because I think they grew up watching me. like my mom still had drawings you know from A4 inkjet paper like that that I used to draw one every night before I went to sleep you know it would be sea creatures animals in the suit or even firefighters putting out fire in a building you know all sorts of imaginative stuff so I started really drawing like around a year and a half and two years old and then I drew every night so it was so innate in you your immediate family could observe this but the The pressure came from extended family, from academics, from all of that.

4:24That's very true. That's exactly it. Because my mom's side have quite a big family, you know. She has nine siblings. So there's a lot of cousins. And, you know, when there's cousins, there's a bit of this. Yeah. Right? And competition. You always got this aunt here and there that is a bit shady during Chinese New Year, you know. So maybe you should draw a bit less and study a bit more, right? Like stuff like that. But I think I'm very grateful for my family because they always kind of like, it's not that they didn't push, you know, they wish that I could be a biologist because of my pure interest in nature when I was young.

4:57But they didn't force me to change my, you know, trajectory per se. They kind of encouraged me and neutral me towards that too. And that's why they sent me to London, you know, when they knew that, okay, that's exactly what you want to pursue for your future. The interesting thing is, you know, Hong Kong has been a contributor to global culture, global creative culture in really interesting ways. So if you think about those contributions to global culture from Hong Kong to the world, like who are the people that you would point to? Wong Ka Wai, that's one, right? Yeah. And people that have worked with him from that extent, there's already a lot, right?

5:39There's Zhang Shuping as well And musicians We have like so many That actually Like back then Hong Kong Is almost a symbol of cultural leadership When it comes to Asia I remember when I was growing up It was already kind of the end of that era If I remember correctly I mean Wonkawa is still making incredible movies But it's going to take him like 8-10 years To release one, you know, at that point But when I remember I met some Japanese friends from overseas that's visiting Hong Kong, they told me all these names that they knew about, you know, or their parents would knew about as well, all the way from Japan or even from Korea.

6:18That was the point when I realized how significant it was. And then when I got to London, I found out even more that Sean Paul Gaultier used to design costume even for an artist called Zhang Gugwin. You know, I don't remember his English name, but his last name is Zhang. He used had a custom piece for his concert in hong kong from sean paul gaultier himself so i think you always got this idea that how creative was so powerful no matter on music in the movie in the cinema leading culture wise but i think what changed is just a shift of culture and economic power i think right like i think when the city itself and when the economy itself start focusing on different things where it's more profitable in the shorter term and easier to understand.

7:08And I think the reach of, you know, where China is getting really close with Hong Kong and the two start merging more closely together economic wise. I think that also made the city feel that, okay, we need to change our trajectory into something maybe more direct financially, perhaps. Then I think art and culture is a sense of investment and patience, right? Well, I guess a real pivot point was clearly the reunification with China. Yeah. And then more recently, I think COVID has really dramatically changed the city. Yes. I think now the creative scene in mainland China is pretty powerful. It is incredible.

7:47So sometimes I look at that from afar. And also me being in London for now 17, going 18 years now next year, I've seen how things can change, right? Like how the creative scenes and the talents that would be impacted by the way, no matter on the political aspect and economical aspect as well, that would change things. Which is a shame, but I kind of always believe that, you know, when there's a challenge, there's an opportunity. You know, so sometimes the most, the roughest, most beautiful diamond came from, right? The hardest of pressure. Speaking of London, you know, you mentioned just now that your parents decided to send you to London.

8:27Was that because they saw more of an opportunity or a path for you here? Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just they're very aware that a creative career or creative study wouldn't be the same in Hong Kong versus in London, which London is very known for their creative education, especially in fashion. So it just became quite an easy decision for them, you know. And we always kind of got family here as well, you know. So it doesn't feel like it's such a big, drastic thing for them to say, oh, let's send Robert away. So it was an easy decision. So when you were deciding to pursue fashion education, why LCF?

9:11And what was it like for you? Did it meet with your expectations? I mean, I came here with no structure or understanding at all with what London College of Fashion, St. Louis and Martins, Westminster, I have no bloody clue, like at all. I didn't understand any of it. So I kind of just went for an interview with UAL and I showed them the portfolio. Which stands for, for people who don't know, that's the University of Arts London. So it's basically the branch that has all the university we have just mentioned as well. By the time apparently I applied, I don't remember the interviewer told me that like, oh, CSM already closed the application for the BAs.

9:57But CSM will be a good choice if you don't mind doing another foundation or you can, I can already include you in the LCF already. You know that you can start BA in a few months. And I remember as an Asian person, I was just like, I'm not going to waste another year time. And in my head, it also just feels like I believe in a good education, a good environment. but I don't have this. Only later I found out when I got into university, I can see the whole idea about what it meant to come from St. Chris Martins and what it meant to come from non-cultural fashion and this very toxic comparison, in my opinion.

10:31I've learned that, oh, there is this situation going on where people always assume if you're successful after you graduate, you must be from CSM, you know, and then later would be a different case, for example. So yeah, I just went into it with no concept that's how i ended up in lsf which i'm very grateful for because i actually got the time and the techniques to you know to with the incredible teacher that actually showed me how to make things and women's wear it was always going to be women's wear like it was never i think so i think so i think there's just more i have more interest in that experimental field i mean i love tailoring but in my head i was like you can do that with women's too right so i just felt men's is so tailoring orientated and also that was like what like 2009 to 2012 that span of year like menswear is not as expand vocabulary wise as of nowadays seems yeah i guess when jonathan anderson graduated from lcf maybe a few years after you did and he started doing all that experimentation yeah in menswear that really was the beginning of a I think so too.

11:42Yeah, I think so too. I think there was this idea, he definitely started an incredible way of perceiving menswear. And I remember going to Liberty to saw some of his work as well as selling at Liberty. It was so experimental, which you did not expect to be seen in the menswear section. But I think that's what got people excited, right? Yeah, I mean, the guy's got infinite ideas. Well, I think we should just put to rest this idea that if you're successful in fashion, you come from CSM. Because both you and Jonathan and countless other designers graduated from LCF. And the industry lore has it that you were discovered by Joyce.

12:27Yeah. So for people who don't know what Joyce, the person, and Joyce, the boutique, means in Hong Kong, like, tell us a little bit about that. And then how did she find you? What is so beautiful since we started a conversation, right, about how incredible Hong Kong was back then. joyce was i like if i remember correctly was the first um buying store of luxury and designer clothing in whole of east asia even before japan yeah from joyce ma herself that founded it and when i graduated obviously always as someone that grew up in hong kong and then when you knew that you're interested in fashion you will always walk past the joyce boutique and i think one of the biggest difference between joyce and other store is how many new designers and innovation they're trying to push in a market that's not necessary.

13:22It's the most open-minded of consumers, let's say. So that itself takes courage and also is a staple of what it was, right? Like Joyce Boutique is really something and also Joyce Ma herself is an icon, to be honest. So I remember sawing a photo on the internet that Joyce Ma went to Driss Van Noten's show, the last one that he would design for his own brand. And then friends that I used to know in Hong Kong that worked at Joyce told me that, yes because she's the one that introduced you know drisvan notan to the entire asian market like she's the first one to actually buy him and sell him sell his work in hong kong i was like that's phenomenal so that kind of is how i started too i suppose you know it was in i mean so that's incredible because yeah this really really important influential someone you consider an icon of luxury retail in Asia discovers you.

14:18So tell us exactly what happened. I think it was Michael Mock, which used to be the head of buyer for Joyce, which I think he has always been, we never really met, but we always got mutual friends in between, especially Hong Kong is so small and there's only a handful of people that study fashion or be in the fashion industry. So when I graduated the collection, I mean, I didn't even get into the press show. So that's also very important not to have. I didn't get into it. So I just released the photos on my social media. And then Michael got in touch that they want to do a pop-up, you know, and see if I'm interested in doing it.

14:54Right away, just off of your social media. That graduation year was quite intense, you know, with also another expectation from graduate students that you need to be in the press show. Yeah. So how did you feel when you found out you weren't in the press show? I went to basically binge sushi eating. I remember that night with a friend of mine. Sushi as your like comfort food? No, it was our original plan that night to go and have sushi regardless, right? And then I remember we got the email that basically, we didn't expect that email that day. It was on the weekend. I remember I got the email from the school director to say, these are the names that's going to be on the press show.

15:33And obviously I read through it and I wasn't in it. and I don't think I'm that sad but I'm a bit like you know you're obviously a bit frustrated right so I told my friend that well we're still gonna have sushi but let's go to some like you know like all you can eat style right so we changed the restaurant and I ate quite a lot don't feel great you know the next day but then yeah like that was what happened but still somehow the collection still managed to get to a few places you know it got us the first Hunger Games uh the Mockingjay part one collaboration you know where the costume team got in touch with us that they would love a few looks you know for the hunger game production lady gaga also already bought two pairs of shoes from our graduate collection and she wore one for the allen show i think she wore one when she was coming to london for a press tour and also joyce petite you know that actually first introduced us to the market and also michael kind enough to teach me how the pricing system works as well you know what because i have no idea how to price my pieces right from my graduate collection and he kind of introduced me to the system like the level of work that you produce and the idea of craftsmanship you can go as high as that you know you don't need to look at other people's when they do manufacturing and wholesales you know which they have a more you know pleasing and attractive price point so he I remember that conversation very deeply because it never really got into my mind in my headspace about how to even price my work what is it worth yeah they don't really teach you that at fashion school do they think that is exactly one of the main thing yeah that should be reconsidered yeah you know it's interesting because you kind of pulled into two different worlds simultaneously it seems like you're pulled into this like wholesale driven model which is how joyce works and there's this whole like how many times you mark up the manufacturing cost to get the wholesale price and then how many times they mark up the wholesale price to get the retail price and you're kind of learning all that and it sounds like you're also getting pulled into this world where you have like these unique one-off pieces for people like lady gaga for a film like the hunger games and you pursued this for a while so how did that go for you like you know the the wholesale business terrible i would say right like barely surviving i think it took me like what like the first three and a half four years was like what one two maybe I got four stockers every season.

17:56And I got like this little studio that I have around Dalston area. And then it's just always been by myself and one person, right? That I have pay her in freelancing fee basically. So you were making the clothes by yourself with this person? No, we also work with manufacturer. I think we had someone in Spain and then we had someone in mainland China too, but we never really met the MOQ, the minimum order of quantity, you know? So like even the factory that we work with in all those years, they kind of just doing us a favor, to be honest. And our pieces are not exactly the easiest to make as well.

18:33We're not, we're no T-shirt or special A-line dress designer. So it was a very tough few years for me, you know. And what is very full circle now looking back is actually how I started. now as explaining to you was very one-off, was very based on the idea of custom and customization and how I am right now ending up back into that same, you know, mentality. Right around COVID and you started saying, I'm just going to do one-off special pieces. In a way, when you were young and doing those one illustration every evening, it's like you're creating one garment for one customer at a time, which is kind of like a couture model not exactly yeah what were the factors that pushed you towards this customization you know one-off model why does it work for you it would be one is instinct because it's covid i remember when covid happens things are already a little bit better for us i think in wholesale you know but that won't happen anymore because there's no there's travel ban people are not even allowed to go to work Paris Fashion Week was put on hold so that you can't even think of a showroom or meeting buyers there so that just gave me a very powerful moment to kind of reset everything because it's still two persons team back then but we have moved already to a more you know efficient space and then both me and my assistant back then we live so close to the studio and we are allowed to go to work as long as we don't take any public transport you know and we're both walkable distance so i remember walking to the office with the whole street empty everyone is locked out the building is pretty much empty for a good three four months they say like maybe it's time for us to just do what we are meant to do you know without worrying about the business without worrying about meeting the buyers anymore then let's use this most challenging time ever to create something maybe it's the most honest i think that's one thing it's almost like an instinct and my grandmother passed away by the end of COVID so I think the second thing that leads to that was emotion I remember when that happened that was the time when we're about to release that collection called armor and I was still shooting it through my iphone in my studio kitchen white background and then we just put a black fabric on the floor we painted a little cone to hide the led light so I can create that sunset feeling that was in my head, you know, and it was two friends who were my model when I shot it with my iPhone, probably iPhone 10 or iPhone 11 back then.

21:10At that point, I wanted to start making collection that makes sense to me. You know, I realized that in order for me to have a strong business model in a wholesale or growing a brand, this is not the time yet. I am not, I can't do this all by myself. But if the brand needs to make sense and for me to sacrifice all these years to leave my family, not being by their side to come all the way in London to chase my dream. From now on, everything I create needs to have a responsibility, not only for myself, but also for the message that I'm trying to relate to people. And I think that really puts in that kind of push in me to really do something that is no longer for other people to understand, for me to make money, but simply something to communicate, to be honest.

21:58And I think that really changes the whole sense of me of how I see my work. And I remember releasing it simply on Instagram, no show, nothing physical. The attraction it got and the clients we got from there as well, that people relate to that story, they feel connected to the work and they love the pieces, really just shows me even more the power of genuinity and honesty in the industry. And maybe that's also what people were really craving maybe after the whole COVID and put everything in pause. We'll be right back with more on the BOF podcast.

22:38it's interesting that lcf didn't select you to be in the press show but that led to joyce and a couple of other opportunities also you were never part of the london fashion system yeah you weren't part of a new gen you weren't part of all you know the bfc programs and all of those you weren't part of london fashion week no yeah and so when you were making this decision to kind of pivot to couture. It was also because, you know, in a way you were based in London, but you weren't part of the British fashion scene. Yeah. Why is that? I don't know. That would be the best answer. I have applied for everything like everyone else does, I assume.

23:21Any program you can imagine that is available for young graduates or young designers that is independent, I have tried to the extent that I got the email that told me that you have already been over the business for four years so you are no longer eligible to apply so it got to those points really you know so I just never lucky enough to be part of any of the programs or under any of their umbrella or supporting system that London had to offer you know it might have been in hindsight a blessing in disguise because were you part of one of those programs, it would have kind of co-opted you into this system where there was like a really formulaic way of saying like how a brand is successful is building a wholesale business and having a certain number of stockists and every season it grows.

24:12And you just didn't fit any of that criteria. But imagine if you had been in that system and then COVID happened, you would have, I mean, COVID was so challenging for so many of the emerging fashion businesses in London that were part of that system. And I think London fashion really hasn't really recovered from COVID. The independent brands here are still dealing with the impact of that. And then the downfall of Farfetch and Matches and all of these wholesale accounts. And in a way, your independent one-off couture approach has been you know really really effective in this kind of environment like i mentioned you know i always really believe that whenever there is an obstacle or a challenge is an opportunity so exactly like what you said i think obviously it's difficult as a designer based in london when you don't really get any visibility or support you literally just have yourself and your faith right like to believe that you you're doing what you love so just focus right but still you are always being put in the comparison of about okay well but like he started about the same time as you and they already done like how many shows in London Fashion Week and so you always got this kind of a weird warp sense of how you determine success and like you said I think the blessing is also I've been trained to not listen to so many of what other people's success looks like or what other people's business model looks like or who likes what because of what and if you celebrate or who support who because these are the things that if it's for you it's for you if it's not for you you fixate it or you've been compared yourself to it you're just blocking your own journey i mean i still think supporting system is so important i can't say that i lead to all this way it's purely 100 because of my own determination i mean i am grateful for the federation in paris and also to well let's talk about that because the federation i mean and the andam prize was really a big moment for you.

26:12And interesting to me that it took a prize in Paris to recognize what you were doing, because perhaps your approach and the way you think about fashion, the way you approach your stuff is a better fit for how parts of the French system think about fashion, which obviously has this couture model. So the Andamne Prize leads to Bruno Pavlovsky. bruno pawlowski helps to lead i'm sure and opens the door to a couture calendar i mean to go from you know studio in dalston in east london to to paris couture that was my first bof interview i remember that i remember that i think suzy bubble did that right dalston to place vendome yeah i mean that's like it's like kind of amazing so first let's talk about andam you know you've been rejected by so many of these institutional prizes why did you apply for anda oh this one is beautiful because i actually didn't i didn't apply i got an email that they asked me would i consider applying and obviously i was i would love to you know yeah so i applied and then i got in on that year which is i believe 2022 yeah and when they announced the shortlist of people i was like i I remember at that point, we already have three people in the team.

27:31You know, it's not just me and one, but there's three of us. I remember telling it out, look at all of them. Like, it's incredible. Like, everyone is very known, established. You know, they have a few million turnover every year. And then we are here, like, what, like around two, three hundred, you know. So I remember the day we got on Eurostar to go to Paris. I told my team that, like, our only mission is not to embarrass ourselves in this room full of this incredible juries of CEOs. And that's it, you know. And then after I present, I'm with the other designers, the shortlist designers. And they all start sharing experience of how it went inside the jewelry room, how many questions they got.

28:09And I found out that I got the most questions out of everyone. And then later through also the juries, we're talking after the award ceremony. They realized that I've learned that actually because I'm the one that is least about making money, more about actually one sentence that apparently I said that really touches everyone is I simply is someone that wants to do what I love to do for the rest of my life until I cannot and that apparently makes a lot of sense to them when they felt like they've been only hearing designers that they have this crazy ambition about 10 million next year 20 million the year after and here comes a guy just walks in and simply someone that wants to create you know what I am sure that those designers that were giving, handing out all those figures were saying what they thought those people wanted to hear.

29:00Who wanted to hear. Because, I mean, I can't even remember who was in the same year as you, but I've been on that jury before. And, you know, like sitting on those fashion juries is always such a pleasure, such an honor, and so inspiring for me because people like you and people like any of those designers that would have made it into that competition to that stage, like they've worked so hard they have like it's so competitive this industry and it takes so much dedication and resilience and grit and perseverance yeah to even make it there you know and so but i think they were probably saying what they thought people wanted to hear because i you know any designer most of the designers i know are really motivated by just doing something i agree they love they just love to do you know i absolutely agree the good designers they're the ones who they just want to create absolutely yeah there's a question about scalability i think that's why the grand prize went to botta you know and then i won the special prize and when they announced when bruno announced my name that i won the special prize i was all the way at the back of the hall having a drink so it took me like a good three four minutes to even got on stage because i wasn't expecting you didn't think you were gonna win so they have to wait for me and i got there and i was oh my god so sorry guys because i was all the way at the back and then uh one of the jury told me you know in the plaza after we already announced the award he mentioned that like uh it was the longest debate they ever need to have you know they were very split in two between me and bought her you know they normally can already decide the winner in 15 to 20 minutes maximum and this time it took them 45 to 50 minutes you know and because you know one side really wants you to win another side really wants bought her to win i've definitely been on juries where that happens but in the case between you and bought her both excellent brands i love them so what they do is so special and i completely agree with that jury point you know because they are are such a mature business with a model and also on their portfolio that they have done sneakers, sportswear, experimental wear, men's wear, women's wear experimentation.

31:16Absolutely, I completely get it. But great that the jury chose you both for two different prizes. So tell me what then, then they assign you Bruno Pavlovsky, head of fashion for Chanel, the big man himself to be your mentor, what was the best advice that he gave you? He told me advice is useless. That's the best advice. That's what he said. He said like, we are here to make things happen. I remember the first meeting schedule was actually during Paris Fashion Week. It was at the beginning of October or something. Went there and then got into his office with a few of the ladies from Chanel, you know, sitting in this round table in this room.

31:53And he told me, what do you think we're going to do here? That's the first thing he actually asked me. And I said like, well, I think the mentorship program is meant to me sharing some ideas and thoughts about how my business can grow. And I would love to have your advice. And his advice is my advice to you. His advice is useless. Talk is cheap. We're here to make things happen. Tell me where you want to go and I'm going to make it happen. Wow. So what did he do? I said that maybe I was a bit shocked by that response or it took me maybe a pause. And I did mention that I think I am ready for a physical show because that's actually one thing that was close to nine years already you know that i haven't actually done at all you know no presentation no physical show so i felt like with the grand money with the support that now i gain in paris maybe it's time for me to do a show in paris and it was like oh have you got the collection together that i can have a look so i showed it to him on my ipad and that work couture came up yeah so he felt this is couture how did that feel Take yourself back to that moment I questioned it My big response was really?

32:57Like literally And it was like yes It was like do you think anything else? I was like well because I have a lot of respect for that word But obviously coming from you You know it feels like a stem of approval I assume So just fast forward That was the point that before he even announced That he's going to be the chairman of the board too And then I met the federation the next day That they also felt like I should be in couture simply for the reason that the ready-to-wear calendar is a bit of a war zone of marketing warfare. So they felt young designers have been drowning in that calendar. It's true, right?

33:34There's a bit more breathing room on the couture calendar, but also your approach. Yeah. Your fantastical designs, the characters you create, the incredible volumes, the whole emotion of what you do is such much better fit for couture week as they also see it so they advised me to move ahead you need to get a sponsorship letter who do you know that can give you a sponsorship within the board i was like well the closest one i know is bruno and i was like oh but uh bruno don't really do that so i still ask and i got it and then fast forward by the time they have the meeting to decide who can join the cultural calendar where they will have a meeting.

34:18I think that was already first week of November or mid of November, even to be honest. And I just got the call at 9, 8, like 8 a.m. London time. It was like 9 a.m. in Paris time. And I just woke up and they told me that I got all the votes. So it's a unanimous voting situation. So you have a show in january so that that exactly exactly exactly so you this is your first ever fashion show since you're because you didn't get to do the press show at lcf no show so your first ever show is an on schedule show at paris couture week yeah oh my god and i have no context what to do so i immediately need to learn okay who's the pr who does the production how how to make the collection like everything in less than two months time that must have been a very stressful two months absolutely absolutely i think that's why the collection is called fear because when i was going through so much stress i was remembering that i then let that be the idea itself of what the collection is you know what if the worst thing that could ever happen to the most expensive garments ever made is the inspiration itself hence links to the emotion that i was feeling the stress the anticipation and all that yeah so now that you've said you know you've been showing a couture week now for a few years how has that changed the way your business works and like what are you thinking in terms of the model that you have because your your clothes are now popping up in lots of places i even saw a couple of looks pop up at the bof 500 gala but yeah how are you making it work from the business side we are very lucky you know that especially a brand that is so independent and small, we're able to grow to a very decent size now.

36:04We're a team of almost 11 and 12 of us now. And it's a very healthy business model for us for now, especially we turn from not making any profit at all to actually start making profit in the past since last year. Congratulations. Which is, for me, is a little win, you know. And we are still growing, you know, so it's a very good thing, you know. We're almost doubling in terms of turnover as well by the end of this year. and next year we had the busiest year ever scheduled too with many collaborations lining up in launching that we've been working in the past year too anything you can tell us about now i think they wouldn't mind because some of the region of the release we have a johnny walker collab that we've been working for a year and a half you know which is uh not just a link name but it's a whole design project linked to chinese new year that's correct because they just did a whole bunch of stuff with diwali and they asked rahul mishra to design a bottle and exactly that's beautiful yeah so i think it's similar in context but we started that project we start making that project for that since last year october so it took them a long time to put it because it's the first time they also do something that is not just graphics and drawing is actually a physical thing i saw that with yeah with the with the other there must be a press release or something there must be i didn't read it i didn't get no one sent it to me but it's well you will get one from me okay Well, so like there's collaborations and stuff is growing, but what about the core clients?

37:32Like, do you have a regular clientele now? We do. We're very lucky. And I also love our client base in that sense of, I think we've also changed a bit from our first couture collection where we have only maybe a handful, maybe 11 couture clients. And then we didn't do a show that same year. And then when we did the show the year after, we did three shows altogether in that year. And by the mid of that show, when we did the time collection, we suddenly have a very interesting portfolio of clients that pops up. So now we have up to like 41 of those couture clients, you know, and 30 of them are regulars.

38:08And can you tell me just for my, just to satiate my curiosity, one of those couture garments, I know how much the really big houses charge for them. How much does it cost a client to buy one of your... our average for those couture clients order range will be around 45 to 60 000 you know wow yeah pounds yeah is that a lot no it's well it's a lot of money for a single garment i know why people invest in that but yeah i don't know any other designers of your generation yeah working at that level. Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of it. I totally am. I think what is interesting where I was leading up to our portfolio clients is our strongest market is actually in the States, in the USA, and they mainly from New York and LA.

38:58And they are millennials like myself, and they have started a wonderful business. They're successful, and they have this opportunity to buy something that that maybe not so old school, maybe on their special day, on their wedding, that they want something that is truly connecting to them. A lot of them are also Asian Americans as well. So they relate to your heritage. I think so. I think at least 35 to 40 % of them when we do the portfolio are Asian Americans too. So we also have a huge portfolio of art collectors, all the way from Germany, from Switzerland, from London, from New York, from China, know that they simply just want to buy our pieces for collectible purposes you know and why do you think they're coming to you and not going to Dior or Chanel or I think they do too yeah I remember a few of them showed me that you know their system would share with us their client's portfolio you know what they have been ordering yeah so that we have an understanding of what the client would like you know, in terms of modification.

40:06So I think they have, you know, but I think what maybe what we do really intrigue them is we started the whole narrative about what couture can be. You know, I think there is this excitement behind when a couture brand that is not really doing something just to make you look like you're supposed to go to a mall, you're supposed to look, you know, rich and wealthy, but there's a story and an aspect behind it. And I think there's a very powerful modernity behind that aspect of actually coming out and not trying to just tell you how rich this look yeah because this is a Chanel this is a Dior but actually where the story comes from and the designer that has a voice behind it too and I think that's why there's a lot of millennial clients that we've gained and also worth mentioning a lot of gay couples as well you know I think because there's not many cultural house that actually do menswear and we have been known to do very experimental men's I saw wisdom K in one of your looks at the 500 gala yeah I love wisdom don't I fucking love him I don't know if I should swear you can cut you can swear yes this is a this is not a pg-13 okay that's amazing yeah no fantastic I mean men's more of the big brands are getting into men's couture as well I think Valenciaga is doing a bit of that yeah I guess do a lot I think back then a Valentino as well you know from the uh from from uh pierre paulo so i think where we ended up is just that we also have this narrative that really connected to the gay couple when they want to get married and they want this uh idea of what they would imagine their wedding looks like and we somehow become the one that they also related to the most you know and do you always start with something that you've shown on the catwalk or will you also do something that's completely from scratch based on an idea or a story someone tells you for the clients there will always be modification because what we provide also is they came already with something they have in mind which came from our collection and they start sharing with us exactly they start sharing with us about i really love this and the wedding theme is about this and there's a i have this connection with pearls for example and i want to see where we can ending up imagining something in that world, you know, for them.

42:25But that obviously comes in a different range of service. You also have clients like the art collectors that just wants exactly what they have seen on the runway into the archive. And then you have clients that actually wants to wear them and they want to, you know, be a bit more modified for their needs, you know, for the event or for the occasion they have to. And, you know, that's what we do, you know, as a couture business. Yeah. That's really impressive. I mean, I think when I think back to some of the designers i used to advise or even though bruno says i shouldn't give advice but um you know their entire wholesale order for a season would be 45 000.

43:02oh yeah or 60 000. i know i'm you know because the first one i've shared which is uh with alex from lvmh you know he's from the sustainable group like on the nona source side yes things when they said oh uh where did you go just now i was like oh i just met a client you know so uh and he asked me how did it go i was like it went well so they already paid the first deposit so he's curious because he never really you know worked with couture too and i told him like the gown that we saw was 125 000 pounds you know and he was was that that was literally a wholesale for an entire year totally for for a And that was when I was a bit more aware about how lucky it is to be in that position and how grateful I am as well.

43:49But also I think because I didn't just come out from nowhere, right? Like as many people know that I've been around struggling to fit into a certain system or trying to make it. But we basically, I think what's really admirable and really inspiring about your story is the system didn't fit you and you didn't fit into the system. So you created, you know, your own way of doing things. And it just so happens to fit into another system, which is a very specialized, very specific world. But it enables you to really focus on going back to that quote about just doing what you love. you know, the thing that won over the jury at the Andam.

44:31And, you know, congratulations, Robert. It's like a really, really beautiful story. So I always conclude these interviews with a little bit of advice, you know, for someone who's listening. Oh, I would love that. I know Bruno says no advice, but like for someone that's like wanting to express themselves creatively like you've so successfully done, but not really sure how to go about it. What advice do you offer to them? I really want to set something different, you know, at this podcast here, because I think people, I really appreciate people seeing me as someone that, oh, is stubborn and creative and somehow it's just not the right timing and somehow he still made it and keep on pursuing, right, and to be successful.

45:14I really think that yes being creative love to be a creative being a creative as your as your as your career is a beautiful thing it's a blessing you know but you can't ignore the reality of things you know because that comes hand to hand your creativity can't just come from the void and just say because you have this that you want to do you have this you want to express so you can ignore every factors of what's going on in the industry because then your message wouldn't have any substance. I always feel that what I do, although it's couture, although it's elaborative, it's avant-garde even, some would consider.

45:53It came from the understanding of, I know exactly what the industry is looking like right now, who is doing what, and I have appreciation of all different business models. Therefore, I found the meaning of in what I do, to be honest, to be powerful, with the knowledge and the backbone of understanding why the industry, how it's moving forward, and what I do, how much courage it takes, and what it means for the moment right now. So my advice would be don't jump into this rabbit hole about, oh, yes, you're so creative. It's so difficult to make it. And blame the world. Blame the society. Blame the system, you know.

46:31Find where you are at. Learn everything. I think my journey also shows people that I try to go into the wholesale system. I tried to make it and I did make a little bit of it, you know, and I understand where I felt, where my strength is at, where my weaknesses is at, you know, and I start realizing, okay, if one day I need to do wholesale, I need to come in with a whole different plan. I need to have my manufacturer sorted. I need to get all my ducks in a row. I need to get the whole logistics completely understood and do it properly. And you would have probably had to change your approach to creativity because it wouldn't have worked in wholesale.

47:09Exactly. And I'm really glad that what you did instead is you protected the source and purpose of your creativity. And you found a model that worked around your creativity as opposed to sacrificing a creativity for a model. I think that is beautifully said. But what I'm trying to say is your creativity is important and is close to you. But it doesn't mean that everything else is against you sometimes. What I always say to designers is the creative side and the business side, they need each other. Without the business side, the creative side cannot exist. Absolutely. Without the creative side, the business has no power, no fuel, no energy.

47:55Isn't that how fashion was born? Yeah, we need both. I mean, that's why we are the business of fashion. You know, like that's the whole genesis of this whole thing. I mean, that's what's, I think, really interesting about this industry is how those two things fit together. And your journey and your story is like really great evidence of that. So thank you for popping by BOF HQ. Thank you for having me. Honestly, it's been a pleasure. Likewise. And honestly, being part of BOF 500 this year was a bucket list, you know. Well, it was very well deserved. So congratulations. Thank you for having me.

48:28Thank you. The BOF Podcast is edited and produced by Olivia Davies and Eric Bria.