Why Upcycling Is Suddenly Everywhere in Fashion

0:00Shayeza Walid: Introducing Meta Glasses. You have questions, they've got answers.

0:06Sheena Butler-Young: Hey Meta, what's the capital of Peru? Lima.

0:09Shayeza Walid: How do you say, where's the restroom, in Spanish?

0:13Sheena Butler-Young: ¿Dónde está el baño? Hey Meta, is a hot dog a sandwich?

0:17Shayeza Walid: Technically no, spiritually yes. Hey Meta, what should I do with my life? That's one of life's biggest questions. What do you think?

0:26Sheena Butler-Young: Ask anything with the new Meta Glasses.

0:38Sheena Butler-Young: hello and welcome to the debrief from the business of fashion where each week we delve into our most popular bof professional stories with the correspondents who created them i'm senior correspondent sheena butler young for a long time upcycling sat on the edges of the fashion industry. It was associated with small independent designers, niche sustainability labels, and one-off capsule collections designed to make a statement or even just a hobbyist pursuit. But change is in the air. At Paris Couture Week this spring, Swiss designer Kevin Germannier closed the season with a collection made entirely from excess inventory across seven LVMH-owned brands.

1:19Sheena Butler-Young: Coach is turning used denim into new bags, and even high street retailer Uniqlo is experimenting with remaking unsellable and used garments through its label RE. Increasingly, upcycling is being sold through creativity, individuality, and provenance, not just a sustainability hook. So today we're asking why upcycling is suddenly everywhere, what is making waste more attractive as a raw material, and whether this can become a real part of fashion supply chain. Joining me is BOF sustainability reporter Shaiza Waleed, who's been following the change. Shaiza, welcome back to The Debrief.

1:53Shayeza Walid: Thanks so much for having me, Sheena. Excited to talk about this one.

1:57Sheena Butler-Young: So for the listeners who may use this word loosely, including myself, how would you define upcycling?

2:04Shayeza Walid: So typically upcycling involves taking used or unsold clothes and then reworking it into a new product by elevating it. So in real terms, that could mean, you know, breaking down a jacket or cutting it up and resewing it and make it into like a mini skirt or taking a pair of jeans and making it into a jacket by chopping it up and resewing. it. And historically, it's maybe done with a needle and thread, but increasingly, you know, it's done with machinery or other creative means where people are finding ways to reconstruct garments from old clothes or unsold clothes.

2:35Sheena Butler-Young: So it's interesting because I obviously don't cover sustainability, but I followed it for a long time. I remember the initial conversations from brands. It was all about creating something new. Like one of my first interviews about sustainability, maybe close to a decade ago, the brand was talking about opening an entire facility to make all this new stuff that was going to be labeled sustainability or sustainable. And then over the years, you watched different iterations of that. And I think somewhere around maybe five years ago, the conversation really shifted towards reuse, re-commerce, taking what already exists in the supply chain and making better use of it instead of making something entirely new.

3:15Sheena Butler-Young: What's changed now? Why is upcycling a big deal now? That's the newest, I think, iteration of this? What made you want to write about it, you know, this month?

3:24Shayeza Walid: Throughout the whole year, really, there's been a rise in collaborations from kind of these smaller niche independent brands that have upcycled or known for their upcycling methods, such as, you know, ELV denim, which, you know, takes jeans that already exist or waste jeans from recycling units and reforms into these beautiful high street pieces. They have this like division into where the two jeans are brought together. But, you know, Connor Eves, Alu Walia, Marine Serre, like so many brands like this. I noticed increasingly we're collaborating with these bigger industry players from your Nikes to Patagonia working with a smaller label too.

4:01Shayeza Walid: And it just felt like the term was becoming ubiquitous across marketing. And it felt like historically, to your point, you know, this idea of upcycling meant something that independent sustainable brands did or was very niche or like something that a certain type of consumer was drawn to making new of what already exists or is old, but it felt like it was being claimed by a certain segment of the industry. And there was there was a promise in that. I want to say we've seen this recalibration and how sustainability is marketed for a while in the last two years. But the term being used in this way meant that it was no longer relegated into something that was for a certain type of consumer or for just left for a certain type of brand to do.

4:42Shayeza Walid: And so that's why I felt like it was time to the story because it felt like not only was it coming up everywhere from this new Miu Miu collection that they dropped in the summer you know they've actually been doing upcycle collections since 2020 but this summer you know they used Suki Waterhouse as a pretty known face and they moved away from their vintage dresses to like denim and leather so it's a growing collection so it felt like it was just on this uptick and I felt like it was the right time to be able to double down on it as we see these broader shifts in sustainability.

5:11Sheena Butler-Young: I thought it was so interesting that in particular the Kevin Germaniere Couture Collection, using across seven LVMH-owned brands, I would say from where I sit, an impetus for sustainability conversations has been the luxury brands putting things into this incinerator, not LVMH specifically, but more broadly. I think Burberry was the first big prominent example of that. Beyond the spectacle of the show itself, what did it tell you about where upcycling can go or what this means right now that Kevin was able to do that across seven LVMH-owned brands. What did that say to you?

5:47Shayeza Walid: I will say that the thing that stood out to me from Kevin's collection, because I didn't actually catch it in Paris Couture, I saw it at the Global Fashion Summit in Copenhagen when I went this spring. What stood out to me was, yes, we saw the collection, which was, you know, a surprise for us at the summit. We weren't meant to, but it was what Kevin had said before they showcased the collection. And it was the fact that he said, and I didn't write this in the story, but he did say this on stage and paraphrasing is like, you know, he just wanted to emphasize the fact that these 25 looks that are showcased are not made from dead stock fabrics.

6:21Shayeza Walid: They're made from unsold goods. They're made from stuff that already existed, but just weren't sold. Right. Another reason to actually do this story, Sheena, was that we have regulation pushing people to use up their unsold stock in a because just in July, the EU's ban on the destruction of unsolved goods came into place. And it's kind of a time for brands to reconsider and maybe navigate what they do with their excess stock. And there's obviously exemptions. I did a story explaining, you know, where loopholes might be, where brands might still be able to destroy their clothes and what destruction even means.

6:53Shayeza Walid: But it also means that they'll have to figure out sustainable and approved ways for using their excess stock. And upcycling is one of the methods for that. And it felt like Kevin, obviously backed by LVMH, is a good spokesperson for that, saying that, you know, we're using this excess stock, which is also a signal that we're adhering to legislation here. And we're finding a way to deal with our excess stock in this sustainable way.

7:17Sheena Butler-Young: I thought it was interesting that you said that he emphasized this is not made from dead stock. Again, for our uninitiated listeners, is dead stock a dirty word? And then what is it? Why did he feel the need to say that?

7:29Shayeza Walid: I wouldn't say deadstock is a dirty word, Sheena, but in the reporting for this story, what did come out was this bifurcation and acceptance of what is upcycling. It felt like a lot of the critics, so that would be brands who have been upcycling textile waste, which is your used clothing, clothes that you've thrown out or end up in a secondhand market or at a donation box, or your unsolded goods are just sitting there, the clothes already exist, cutting them up and making something new out of it. With deadstock, it's fabric that already exists. It's the same as using new fabric in the sense that their roles of fabric, the constraint comes with the amount that's available.

8:03Shayeza Walid: Like, you know, you're not going to produce more of that fabric. So it is a more time consuming design and supply chain process in that sense, because you have to source it. You have to figure out where the dead stock is. So that's not necessarily easier process, but there was definitely this difference in opinion from critics who say that with dead stock, it doesn't necessarily address fashion's overproduction problem. because you're basically putting a value on that dead stock and then making more clothes out of it. And then that's not necessarily what upcycling is about. But, you know, within the broader definition of cycling, a lot of people do include like, you know, using dead stock, which the industry historically has considered, oh, we don't want to use it anymore because we don't.

8:40Shayeza Walid: That's the scraps. It's the production scraps. But, yeah, I would say that, you know, if you take a step back, both of these processes, using used clothes and unsold clothes and dead stock keep existing materials in circulation, which is, you know, a good thing. And I think a lot of people, including the CEO of this brand that I interviewed called I Was a Sari, an Indian brand that sells globally, it didn't make it into the story copy. But he also says, you know, any way we can find to use what already exists, whether that's dead stock or clothes, you know, it's a win. But, you know, at the same time, many people told me like, you know, that overproduction problem really is what people are thinking about as a sustainability advocates or people who have been upcycling for generations, whether that's a secondhand market in Ghana like Contamanto, like the retailers there, or a fashion brand like Bobby Collade or ELV Denim, who've been taking, you know, actually used clothes and not doing it from dead stock.

9:31Sheena Butler-Young: We'll be back with more of The Debrief right after this.

9:40Shayeza Walid: Introducing Meta Glasses. Hey Meta, any last minute tables for two tonight? Sure. There's a great Italian restaurant 15 minutes away. Hey, Meta, where's the nearest flower shop? Five minutes away, straight down Broadway, past the bodega. Their lilies are trending on Instagram. Just saying. Hey, Meta, am I forgetting anything else? How about setting a calendar reminder for next year?

10:06Sheena Butler-Young: Meta Glasses, available in more than 20 styles. So I want to talk a little bit about another factor that I think is giving new momentum to upcycling. And I think it's what you've alluded to a little bit around dead stock and the legislation stuff, which is that the infrastructure around supply chains has maybe made some of this a little more practical to do. So what does the infrastructure look like now that's making upcycling a little bit? But I don't know if easier feels a little flimsy, but for the sake of conversation, making it more practical for brands to do.

10:43Shayeza Walid: I mean, to your point, we don't want to say easier in the sense that, you know, now everyone can kind of hop onto the train of it. But there are barriers that I think that have been eased over the last couple of years, actually. And I think that is the case for both ends. So because of certain regulatory pressure we're seeing in Europe, there's greater investment for better sorting and collecting infrastructure, where people are also trying to use AI to automate better sourcing and collecting for what we call feedstock, which would be like, let's say you have a T-shirt and a pair of trousers and maybe the trousers has like a tear in it or like, you know, there's a stain in it.

11:18Shayeza Walid: So people wouldn't consider it resellable. So can that be upcycled? So that's storing infrastructure for what can be upcycled versus what can be resold. I think that's getting better and that's improving. We're seeing more momentum. Fashion for Good, which is an industry sustainability incubator, you know, it's been working with lots of different innovators in this space. And we see that supply side of things on how to get better at sorting and collecting is definitely improving. and on the dead stock side of things things have definitely improved a lot with organizations kind of connecting brands who want to use upcycle fabrics whether that's a big brand or a small brand have emerged you have this lbmh backed company called nonasource that essentially directs this excess material that's not used in the production or the scraps of production to brands that want to use it i spoke to this company here based in london called the materialist I spoke to their co-founder Liv Kahn and she also spoke about how she has more and more brands been coming since the company was founded in wanting to come and source the deadstock and find interesting ways of doing something with it because there's a greater design interest in it now more than there's ever been, which I think is curious and kind of speaks to the time we're in and the fact that upcycling is kind of no longer a niche thing.

12:32Shayeza Walid: And also, I think the fact that this dead stock, which is rolls of fabric again, it's not cut up fabric or anything like that, is available at a cheaper price. So that economic benefit, I think, is also maybe allowing or leading some people to err on the side of sourcing. That entire process of sourcing has gotten more streamlined.

12:51Sheena Butler-Young: Something else we talked about when you were here last time was my opinion in that, you know, sustainability like diversity. diversity, I think you know where I'm going. It seems to that it needs, I use the word a sidekick, but like something else that gets people interested in reaching into their wallets and making a purchase, not just because the brand employs black and brown people or LGBTQ plus people. And in the case of sustainability, not because it's quote unquote saving the planet, which by the way, I think people are not always sure if, you know, this isn't like a one for one kind of thing.

13:25Sheena Butler-Young: So people get a little turned around on whether something really is climate friendly, But in the case of a lot of the examples of your story from Miu Miu to Coach, which is one of the first brands to see real success with some of this, is that they're foregrounding, you know, creativity, innovation, aesthetic, and not necessarily the environmental case first. Why do you say that matters? I have my own thoughts on why, but that seems to be the unlock for a lot of brands, right?

13:52Shayeza Walid: Yeah, I think it's because Coach has been really smart into understanding where the consumer connects with the brand and how that has shifted. And I think that's something that I mentioned really early on in the story. Not quoting Coach, but again, like the Indian brand Iwasasari, whose founder and also their marketing director spoke to me about this convergence of two things. Like it's not, OK, one thing happened in the sense that brands are doing this more because they don't care about sustainability. Or is this one thing where, oh, consumers want more vintage? it's a symbiotic process I think I think the reality is that people like things now and there's I think especially Gen Z like things to have a bit more provenance and story in them and I think upcycling offers that oh like this this was owned by a grandma now it's like a skirt that you owned it was a jacket that the grandma used to own and I think that element of it has definitely played a factor and I think on coaches and as a brand who's done it successfully they've been able to market that as something fun and playful and a product that has a story in it so So they obviously started off with their incubator kind of brand, Coachtopia, where they had all these leather scraps and made these fun bags.

14:57Shayeza Walid: But, you know, increasingly we see like the company I spoke to here who worked with Coach for integrating upcycling into their regular line. So this is not Coachtopia. It's just like regular Coach, Bank and Vogue. They have these really chic like, you know, denim cut up like bags now in their famous silhouettes. And I think when people see that, they're like, oh, that's so cool. no one has the same two bags, even if they're totally similar and you can say that it's the same silhouette, you know that it's kind of yours. And I think Coach has done a really good job at being able to push in that direction and showcase that it's possible.

15:29Shayeza Walid: The other innovator I spoke to for the story, Jen Phoenix, also works with Coach, but disclaimer, like Tapestry, the coach owning parent company, they're an investor in that innovator, Jen Phoenix, but they're specifically focused on leather. But I think the fact that a company like Tapestry is, you know, working with the denim upcycle, but also with leather upcycle shows that this is happening beyond just apparel. It's kind of happening across different segments of the market when it comes to products and product types.

15:56Sheena Butler-Young: No, it's so interesting because I think Coach is a really good example of, you know, speaking to a cohort that maybe didn't hear themselves in the initial conception of a sustainable consumer, a consumer that was interested in buying these products. For a long time, that was a very niche audience. It was the, I call it like a salt of the earth kind of, you know, you know, the archetype. And it was smaller. And now it feels a little more it feels like the consumer has changed or is more open to seeing, you know, upcycling, sustainable goods, all of that stuff. What is the consumer element of this conversation?

16:30Sheena Butler-Young: How are we all different now?

16:33Shayeza Walid: yeah i think this definitely pulls on what i was saying earlier sheena that this is a bit of a symbiosis that consumers too have changed and that is kind of why having an upcycled origin for a product or something a brand is selling has become a selling point rather than a barrier to purchase because the consumer pov has shifted to and i think it is because a lot of consumers now want a diversity of things in their closet they don't want to be defined by one thing that that is their certain style. They want to be able to showcase that, you know, they can buy a Gucci or a Zara or a Dior, but also have an upcycled item.

17:05Shayeza Walid: And I would add to that, there's no reason why buying a high street or a luxury brand now they can't have an upcycled product. So you could have an upcycled Miu Miu product today. And maybe that says that you like high fashion and you like luxury fashion, but also you think it's cool that your product is from an upcycled material. So I think that intersection is a quite interesting pocket and interesting tension to follow right now, that the consumer now has a variety of options now as upcycling is being taken up by these brands as something that's cool and interesting, whatever the drivers have been, as we've spoken about.

17:39Shayeza Walid: But also the consumer finds it cool to have these things in their closet. And I think they, to your point, are more open to having these kind of items in their closet and it doesn't say something about them anymore just it's just a piece that they appreciate just like they would a piece that's made from you know virgin fabrics i just want to

17:56Sheena Butler-Young: own something from i was a sorry like i think it's the coolest name i just i just want that just to

18:02Shayeza Walid: be able to say it i love i love the name stuff is really cool too like they make bomber jackets out of old saris and stuff i've been following that brand for a little bit but it just felt like when i spoke to them it didn't make it into the story but their their biggest like you know their biggest customer base, it's outside of India. It's not even Indian. Like they have a very small percentage of their sales that happen in India. And that to me showed that, you know, people like that idea of like cultural storytelling and provenance with upcycling as well. It wasn't the point of the story, but I think it definitely adds to that consumer conversation.

18:31Sheena Butler-Young: We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this.

18:40Sheena Butler-Young: The case is well made that there's momentum here. There's for the sake of conversation, there seems to be a mainstream crossover happening, but there are definitely barriers to scaling upcycling. You talk about the infrastructure getting a little bit better, but still, I mean, is it scalable infrastructure? I don't know. What are the big barriers?

18:59Shayeza Walid: I think the reality is most brands who do it now, they're doing it in their own small scale and they're trying to grow, but the broader market and the fashion system isn't set up for them to become truly scaled. I think that's the really key barrier here. One of the people I spoke to for this story, Bobby Koolaid, who actually came to be a Voices last year, he kind of spoke about, he doesn't, he spoke about the more cultural side of this, where he's like, you know, he doesn't believe that it's truly being embraced if it's just tied to hype, or basically, if it's just a trend, it would only be limited to a certain amount of brands if we don't fundamentally shift the way fashion produces, you know, and I think that actually is the biggest key barrier.

19:39Shayeza Walid: That That being said, if we just speak about the brands that are upcycling now from your coach to, you know, I mentioned some Scandinavian brands here who've been known for their upcycled items from Deadwood based in Sweden, which does really cool leather upcycled goods to Bonite, which is a Danish like tailored suit brand that cuts up suits and makes them into these cool silhouettes. is the fact that oftentimes the fashion market, especially with like wholesale and retailers, like they don't like the fact that, you know, when something is upcycled, it might have a bit of a sizing difference or like a color difference.

20:08Shayeza Walid: And a customer might come in and be like, oh, like this one has a mix of like dark blue and light blue, but that one's a mixture of like purple and dark blue in my eyes. But I wanted that light blue one, but it might not be available in their size. So I think there are certain things like that that allow it from really becoming this like mainstay in a way that, you know, just regular production is. But I wouldn't say that takes away from the fact that it is growing to your point. And I think that there are brands that are trying to get better at it and have because they have gained an expertise in how to upcycle in a more kind of disciplined way, if you will.

20:40Shayeza Walid: So like trying to find more similar cuts in fabric. So Bonite spoke about that. Anna, who's the co-founder of the brand, she said that, you know, they have found ways to develop individual pieces so that the construction and color can be as repeatable as possible. ELV Dunham also does a fantastic job at that. They're doing that out of their warehouse here in London. And, you know, they sell at multiple retailers. But I think what has gotten traction is the fact that you're getting something unique, but also similar enough that you're able to see, oh, I like that on someone. I bought something similar, but it's also unique to me.

21:10Shayeza Walid: So I think there is that barrier. But I think it plays to a positive note as well when it comes to the consumer interest.

21:16Sheena Butler-Young: There's also a little bit, I thought this was fascinating in reading your story, that there are regulations that make it very, that encourage, there are regulations that encourage some of this. And there are, in certain parts of the world, regulations that could probably go against it, like this idea of importing things that were dead stock already used. Or talk a little bit about how some of that can also work in the opposite direction. Where does that exist as like a barrier? Yeah.

21:42Shayeza Walid: So logistics, I think, is definitely one barrier that comes out for this story. I mean, you know, don't get me wrong, like fashion is a very global industry. We are sourcing things from different countries and getting it to a factory somewhere else in the world. And then it's getting shipped to, you know, a mall of the other side again. So that's something that fashion has navigated. But when it comes to used textiles, right, particularly a lot of countries, I'll give Bangladesh, for example, it doesn't allow used textiles to enter the country. You know, there's not that there are secondhand markets, but those secondhand markets are built off of, you know, discards from factories within the country itself.

22:18Shayeza Walid: So let's say something didn't make the quality control check and that ends up in the secondhand market in the country. It's not being shipped from other countries. So there's a ban on that. Whereas in India, so much of textile waste ends up in India. Same with Ghana, same with Chile. We have the export of textile waste and used clothes from Europe, the US, you name it, that end up in these countries. But that also means that if you are upcycler or you're an upcycled company that's trying to connect textile waste to a brand, you need to navigate all of this stuff. And it's not an easy fix. You know, you really have to figure out what works and what doesn't.

22:53Shayeza Walid: The timing of it all. Timing is, time is money in fashion. Like the quicker you can get something to the cutting floor and then get it to the shop floor, it matters. And I will also say that another barrier that I didn't mention earlier, Sheena, is the fact that, you know, upcycling still is a more time consuming process. And everybody I spoke to said this, you do have to put in more design thinking and more time and labor and figuring out how can I make something out of this thing that already exists? And yes, the process is quite simple. You cut it up and you remake it, but you can't just sell something for the sake of it being upcycled.

23:24Shayeza Walid: There needs to be a beauty element to it, right? The reason it's taking off now and we have luxury companies also using the word is because the design element of it and design thinking of it is growing and building, which is exciting, But it is still not like some sort of, you know, easy process and definitely not as quick as making something out of like new fabrics and virgin material. So I will say like, you know, the norm and the status quo hasn't changed so that we're seeing this thing build momentum on its own because of how regulation and consumers are shifting. And the entire notion of what upcycling is transforming into something more elevated.

24:00Sheena Butler-Young: Your story also points out some of these upcyclers in the in the global south. So in countries like Chile, Ghana, India, Pakistan, they've been doing this at scale for a very long time. Why do you think fashion has overlooked that expertise for so long? And what happens next? Can that be tapped a little more to take this forward and bring it to the scale that brands say they see possible?

24:25Shayeza Walid: I mean, I think for a lot of these upcyclers and retailers in these secondhand markets who have been doing it for generations, You know, the dream would be to get investments from brands and have brands work with them. But the reality is that divide between the global north and the global south that we call it is just so stark even today that even regulation doesn't include these upcyclers or these people dealing with textile waste, which are from places like Europe and America and ending up in there in front of them. It doesn't include them in that process. And it still centralizes how can we deal with the waste here?

24:57Shayeza Walid: It's not thinking about, oh, this waste is still ending up there and how can we reduce that impact on them? Or how can we uplift them and economically give them some sort of incentive to do what they have been doing for so long better and at scale? and that gets to the point like I mentioned it very briefly in the story but I felt like it was really critical to mention that the upcycling that happens in markets like Cantamanto in Ghana unfortunately do exist outside of like the western fashion system right like they're not selling their upcycle clothes to a brand this is a market of like you know thousands of independent resailers right like they they are taking some used clothes and finding cool ways to sell it to markets within their country and then also like you know maybe neighboring countries but it's something that came up as a through line to whoever I spoke with, which is that for a lot of upcyclers in these global South countries, this has been, you know, a form of economic necessity and it's not and it's been a part of their culture and they're putting real intention and innovation into this work.

25:53Shayeza Walid: And if we're able to come to a place where, you know, brands are able to uplift these second-hand markets and those are not just relegated to like dealing with textile waste, Like if we're if we're elevating the word upcycling, we should really be elevating the upcyclers who've been doing it for a long time, too, and not just doing it at this small niche brand level. I think that would be the dream for a lot of these people. But yeah, I will say that the commercial viability of it, again, is something that will come up as an excuse sometimes. But I think that if we're making it commercially viable for smaller brands, I think, you know, over time, if big brands are able to talk about this and be like, oh, we worked with Upcycler and Contamonto to come up with our new collection as opposed to our vintage dresses, that would be a shift in the right direction.

26:34Shayeza Walid: Right. And I think we can only hope and pray for that at this point.

26:39Sheena Butler-Young: Okay, so I have one last question to that point, to everything we kind of talked about today. Your prediction, in five years, is upcycling in fashion a meaningful part of the industry, the conversation, the production, or is it high profile experimentation?

26:59Shayeza Walid: I think right now it feels a little bit like the latter. But I think in five years time, considering the and I know I keep on going back to legislation, but it truly is a key driver because for most big companies at the end of the Sheena, like I still believe that they're not doing this stuff out of a moral imperative. Like sustainability is not a priority for so many companies anymore. Like it's really fallen down the agenda, which I always give as my rationale to why we might be seeing this happen. they're really doing it because it might just make more financial and business sense for them.

27:30Shayeza Walid: So, you know, in five years time, it might be that more companies are upcycling their unsold stock. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's literally because they don't want to have these high numbers that they report because they have to showcase these to the government now, to the EU right now. So I think we will see it become something that... Yeah, exactly.

27:49Sheena Butler-Young: There may be a fine is the headline.

27:52Shayeza Walid: Yeah, we'll have comparable data going forward. And I think companies don't want to showcase that they're wasting that much. And it's because it's a bad look on them that they're not able to sell, you know? So I think that's going to be a key driver. And we'll see, I think we'll see it become more and more. And I think what we might see is that more upcycling becomes the use of dead stock and unsold goods than the textile waste, because that's something that companies are financially incentivized now to deal with, you know, versus the actual textile waste, which of course there's other issues on that too.

28:22Shayeza Walid: But again, it continues sending stuff into these and flooding these global south markets. And it doesn't really address overproduction on its head. And until the industry does that, I don't think we can ever get to a mainstream where this thing is going to be considered something that's just, you know, status quo.

28:38Sheena Butler-Young: I usually say this is a nice note to end on, but I would say this is a nice reality check, an important reality check to end today's conversation on. Shaisa, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Please be sure to check out Shaisa's article, Why So Many Brands Are Upcycling, at businessoffashion.com. These and other stories are available to BOF Professional subscribers only, and you can find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to The Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Angel Menlo. I'm Sheena Butler-Yah. We'll be back next week with a new episode.

29:09Sheena Butler-Young: Thanks so much for joining us, and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

29:24Thank you.