Calum Laming (British Airways) | Brand-Building at 35,000 Feet

0:00What if the smartest marketing play is not to move forward, but to zoom out? Deloitte believes the most powerful move a CMO can make is to look beyond the next step and see the broader perspective. That's what the Deloitte CMO program is for, a place to gain fresh perspective and connect with leaders who've stood where you stand. Together, Deloitte will help you see the bigger picture so your next move isn't just fast, but right. Learn more about the CMO program at cmo.deloitte.com. Hey, it's Jim. I'm here with Matt Spiegel, EVP of True Audience Growth Strategy at TransUnion. That's quite a job title, Matt.

0:34Yes. Welcome. Thank you. So tell me about your company and why it matters for our audience CMOs. Well, listen, Jim, the challenge of the day is that there's so much information about consumers out there and the challenge is most companies don't have all that information. You have some purchase history, you maybe have some web history, but you don't have a full picture of customers. We're working really hard across on a suite of identity products, of audience products, and measurement products to bring a holistic view of customers to marketers. So when CMOs work with you, what light bulbs go off for them?

1:03So, Jim, we help brands bring clarity from chaos. We help them understand a picture of their customers with a 360-degree view in order for marketers to make bigger, more strategic bets. Well said, Matt. Learn more at transunion.com slash clarity. That's transunion.com slash clarity. Hi, it's Jim. Joining me is Matt Spiegel, EVP of True Audience Growth Strategy at TransUnion. Matt, we talk a lot on this show about building brands that people love, but that starts with understanding them, right? Jim, absolutely. Every customer ultimately has a story, but most brands are only going to see part of it.

1:36At TransUnion, we really focus on helping marketers connect those dots across devices, across channels, across platforms, with the goal of helping marketers see a full person behind the data. That clarity is gold. That is special. So how do you do it? Ultimately, we put together the pieces of information that help you predict behavior, help you personalize messages, prove the impact of every marketing decision at the end of the day. And our marketing solution suite gives brands the visibility and confidence to invest smarter and ultimately grow faster. So if you want to turn data into understanding and understanding into growth, visit transunion.com slash clarity.

2:10What's the first brand you remember making an impact on you as a young boy? I know, my parents are going to kill me. Guinness. I'm so proud of my Celtic heritage, but to have a brand that was so ubiquitous, so tied to the country, it's the same symbol on a can of guinness as on the front of my passport you know it's the only country in the world to have a musical instrument i i think as it's a national symbol and to have a brand that has been throughout my life it still gives me inspiration today hi i'm jim stengel i've helped hundreds of major brands discover and activate their purpose because when a brand's purpose is clear, compelling, and authentic, profit naturally follows.

2:52Each week, I welcome the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of your favorite brands, to speak to how their job is so much more than marketing. These leaders share their inspiration and challenges, along with how they try to build a full, healthy, and happy life in and out of the office. And it's that energy that reaches everyone they touch. And we're glad you're here to feel that energy and to learn from these remarkable leaders. So here we go. My guest today on the CMO podcast is a British original. He's Callum Lamming, the chief customer officer of British Airways. He and his team are responsible for a creative replatforming of British Airways, celebrating the airline as a British original.

3:32For their remarkable creative work, Callum and team won the highest honor last year at the Cannes Lions Festival, the coveted Grand Prix. Callum has been at British Airways for about three years, but he has had a lifelong passion for the airline business, which we'll talk about. He has worked for five other airlines in his career, including Virgin and Etihad Airlines. Yet like me, Callum began his career at Procter & Gamble, and he attributes Procter & Gamble to his foundations in marketing. This is my in-person conversation with British original Callum Lamming at the 2025 Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity.

4:05Put your mobile devices on airline mode and listen up. Here's Callum. So welcome to the CMO podcast. Finally, Callum, we've been trying to do this for years. Thanks for inviting me to your holiday home. You would not do it virtually. You know, we had to do it in person because that's your business. So we're here at LVMH's villa. We're a few meters from the pool. So we'll see what we do after this. Anyway, how did you travel here this year? By British Airways. How did you do it? Non-stop? Non-stop, straight out of London City into Nice. I'm going back into Heathrow. So we have a lot of flights destinies all the year round it's a very popular destination fantastic well we saw each other in person last about a year ago yeah it was the other time last year this time last year i invited you and your agency uncommon at lucy's here with lucy's here yeah we're gonna lucy's in the audience lucy we may call you into this we'll see you came to my class there the same walk celebrer last year and presented the work the british original work and you won a grand prix i think last year and 23 23.

5:01A couple of golds and silvers last year. So, and you, and you shared that remarkable case. So it's an incredible time. So we're going to talk a bit about that, of course, but I want to pause there and just say, what's your reflection on that journey to that amazing work that was awarded is growing your brand, your company's healthy financially. I mean, I've done all my homework. Yeah. So it looks like it continues to work. Absolutely. It really resonates for us. I actually, you know, I joined BA just over three years ago and both Uncommon, our creative agency and MGOMD, our media agency, were already in place.

5:33I'd been appointed in I think February of that year as a lot of the thinking had already gone on and this idea was being floated. I came in, it was a very difficult time coming out of COVID of course and you know quarter two of 2022 and it was a platform that you know everyone believed could really resonate and you know you come in new to a job and you're a bit like well a lot of information how does this work what does this mean and actually as i look back on it it has been incredibly successful the idea that it comes from of being a british original you know we are so proud to be the you know fly the flag for the uk to all six continents are inhabited we're so proud to represent our country but the same time you know you look at it and you go is it too uk is it too british but actually when you look at our key markets and where we fly to it works really well because you know uk in itself is quirky it is original so it kind of literally flies and i feel it's one of those you know lines and platforms that only we could own and it has been so successful for us you said commercially we're doing really well you know we put a massive transformation plan in place and that's really starting to deliver our customer metrics are doing brilliantly our brand metrics are doing brilliantly of course there's more we can do but we are really happy with how it's oh it's cool we're going to talk about that in a bit more detail in a few minutes you've been in the airline business a long time, right?

6:54Most of your career, we're going to talk about the start of your career in a minute, but most of your career. So what's that about? What's, is that how, where does that start? At the ripe old age of 48, I've been in aviation 33 years this year. I started when I was 15 in a call center and I fell into it. It wasn't, you know, I hadn't been one of those people that sat at the end of the runway watching planes. I lived nowhere near an airport. It's just a job. You needed some money. The job, that's how it started. That's literally, I fell into it. And I actually fell into a job paging. Remember pages?

7:24My job was in a call center paging handling agents about where they needed to go to go pick up the luggage from flights. That's actually how I... That's glamorous. Well, I've been a baggage handler as well. You know, it's important to know where you've got to go. Yeah. And, you know, it kind of evolved from there. And I paid my way through school and university working in airlines. So I'm really lucky. I've done every job on the front line of an airline pretty much, apart from fly the plane and fix the plane. no one wants me to be an engineer and no one wants me to be a pilot but I was cabin crew for 11 years I've done short and long haul worked in the airport worked on the ramp baggage dispatch check-in at the you know in the call center so I have a real grounding and a real understanding and it's it's a love that came out and of course you know I'd study languages and it's a great way to pressure it's a great way to use it and I was actually British Airways had a low-cost airline at the end of the 90s called Go that was so successful.

8:19It was sold now because it was successful. And I was with them for the entire time. And I was actually the senior cabin crew member on the very last flight. So I had a real history. But I was doing that while I was doing my first post-university job. I still flew as cabin crew at weekends. Wow. What about the love of language? What did that start? Love of language, pretty much. I come from a household with a lot of culture, a lot of music, a lot of languages around. And it's actually, and I only realize it now, well, I realize it now, I actually realized it in my 20s when I was diagnosed with dyslexia.

8:56And I use languages as a coping mechanism because I learned them as a formula. So I don't have the same problems reading in other languages as I do in native tongues. And so I found it really easy in a way of doing it. Like German is really good to count in. It's very formulaic and you can learn things. And that combined with a passion and a curiosity for people and different cultures. You know, I've been lucky in my career to work across the world. You know, I've worked in Nigeria. I've worked in Spain. I've worked in Abu Dhabi in the Middle East for the best part of 10 years. I've lived in New Zealand.

9:32I've been in the Caribbean. I've been in the US as well as being in the UK. I've been really lucky and it's really helped. And I think, you know, for an introvert, I am a people's person. And so it's been really good to be able to communicate. And I enjoy it. I love music. I love, you know, that my music can taste, don't have to define by one language. And, you know, I think it's allowed me to enjoy the world and enjoy more cultures. What city was most enjoyable for you? To visit Beirut. Beirut is my favorite city in the world. I absolutely love Beirut. There's this real mix of the Arabic with the French and the Western influence coming through.

10:06It's a great party city. It's a huge cultural city. it's near you know mountains it's near gorgeous beaches you can ski in the winter and and you know sunbathe in the summer that has that's had a real influence on me living I would say Lagos in Nigeria where I lived for two and a half years had a real great impact on me you know it's a very different place than where I grew up it's a very different place and it's so much fun it is so much fun and it just shows when you when you understand a culture you can get in with the culture I've lived in all these countries i've never well i've tried to never live the typical expat lifestyle you know i wanted friends from locations and i was really lucky at my wedding actually it was looking around people who were there from every country i'd lived in that was that was quite special to have that that was a fun wedding it was it was a christmas wedding but then i'm christmas so it was it was a very celebratory time now isn't png in your background somewhere png where Where did that come from?

11:04Lord. PMG. We're never going to leave your career path on this show. PMG was a brilliant time. I was there when you were there. I remember meeting you in Brooklands in Surrey. I mean, that was 20, something years ago. And it came from leaving university. I'd studied language. I was a medieval European literature specialist. Interesting, fascinating, but probably not practical for building a career. So I was like, well, what do I want to do? And I did that normal milk round coming out of university, you know, where the companies come in and present. I was like, well, what do I want to do? You know, I was working in airlines.

11:35I'd already done, you know, seven, eight years in airlines by then. So I had a good idea that, you know, of what business was. But I was like, I don't want to do just business. I want to do something that's creative too. I knew I had this side of me with the music and dancing and everything through my past. I was like, I need to bring out some creativity. And marketing seemed the best way to do it. And I asked around, who were the best people to learn marketing from? and pretty much it was P &G. That was pretty much across the board. I did a few of the applications because you never know you're going to get your dream job.

12:06And I did a few, but it was actually the recruitment process at P &G that made me go, this is the one for me. You made me bake a cake. And I love baking. Fork you did. And I love baking. I remember going up to Newcastle. I was studying at university. And of course, I didn't have an oven. So I had to go and borrow a friend's. I had to go to a friend's house and find an oven. And then I had to transport it up to Newcastle from Cambridge on the train and present the cake as part of my interview process. And I thought, I want to work for a company that makes me bake a cake. Why do they do that? I have.

12:39Do you know what? I'm going to say it's because they want to have different decisions, did we? No, not necessarily. Not in the UK. They did in the US for a while. Yeah, not in the UK at the time. And it was I was really lucky when when they hired me. I was really I was really looking forward to it. I remember I got the letter on the P &G headed note paper and, you know, you open it and, you know, because it was all letters to post back then and you open it and I read it. And it's like you're joining on this date and you'll be joining in Brooklands in Surrey. Of course, I didn't know whether it's going to be Brooklands or Newcastle or Geneva at the time because you were applying for Europe.

13:12Yep. And I got it and it said I was joining the beauty care team and I was super excited about that. You know, I was looking at the Max Factor adverts, looking at the Pantene adverts and Olay. And then they called me and said I was joining Head and Shoulders. What? Kind of beauty. I was, I mean, it's definitely, it didn't lie. It's still, well, they didn't lie. It was just, you know, I was thinking, oh, Hugo Boss Fragrance in New York. Maybe that's what I'm talking about. But I tell you what, it's still one of the best brands I've ever worked on. It was an incredible time. A brand with such rich awareness that, you know, I even didn't.

13:47Who was your marketing director? It was Jill Whitty Collins who is still an inspiration today. Her recent, she published a few years. I was really lucky she invited me to go and speak at the book launch because she's, you know, P &G was fundamental to who I am today. You know, I'm really lucky. So we look after five areas in customer brand. We have brand and marketing, of course. We have customer experience, so the end-to-end customer journey. We have cabin crew. We have customer care and we have customer strategy and transformation. and you know you get lots of people who've come up in marketing and lots of people who come up in airlines have come up in product which has become customer experience I'm really lucky that I've done them all I feel very sorry for the members of my team because I've done all their jobs I absolutely wouldn't have done the marketing side without P &G and I think it's so fundamental I look back it's such a great university it gives you structure it gives you rigor and the most that I take out of it is how you value and work with your agency partners as well as how to fit a report on one side of a4 in font size no smaller than that i can still do i know how to change the margins so yeah it's it's been fundamental and without it i wouldn't have had that classic brand training through head and shoulders through pringles great brands doing stuff i remember without for a little time i didn't have a brand manager as people were in transition as often happens in png and they were like oh no we'll just we'll just leave the assistant brand manager be on head and shoulders because he can't mess it up i'm like that's pressure but i mean i've worked on you know those brands and actually i've as i think back there someone asked me this actually earlier this week you know why did i leave yeah i didn't leave because i was running away from anything i actually i could see a place where i might still be there today yeah and it's only because an opportunity came up at virgin atlantic airlines oh yeah doing product and marketing and came up at a time when they were setting up this team for the first time that made me go So maybe all of this background I've got in airlines, I could bring it together with what I love about marketing.

15:44And that is where my career took off. But it wouldn't in kind of aviation. But that wouldn't have happened without that frontline experience. And it certainly wouldn't happen without P &G.

16:02Everyone seems to be chasing the next big thing. The fastest answer, the quickest win. But great CMOs believe the real power isn't in the speed, it's in stepping back to see the bigger picture. That's why everything Deloitte does in their CMO program, from their industry-leading capabilities to their connected network of CMOs, is designed to help you zoom out and gain fresh perspective. Deloitte will help you see the bigger picture together. Learn more about the CMO program at cmo.deloitte.com.

16:35I want to sort of fast forward to today we've been talking about your career path we started the podcast by saying how strong the business is the campaign that you presented to my class last year and won awards two years ago is still the platform for the brand it's a company idea as you've talked about so I want to go back to there's I think there's so much rich learning you were fantastic in my class with uncommon uh last year that you you know they raved about it afterward, lots of lessons. So I'd like this podcast to sort of take people on that journey because I think there's so much learning for people to learn from what you have done with your team and with Uncommon.

17:13So could you take us back to when you came in, you know, several years ago and you discovered you had the agency there, you had some foundation, but my gosh, have you taken it to different places? And I find the work funny, humorous, touching uh the first time i saw it i was like my god this this is original that's good enough good but i you know take us back to that time and take us through the journey what have you learned what went well what maybe didn't go so well and there've definitely been things yeah i mean i think i think when you come in when you come into a new role your first thing is you need to discover you need to learn you need to ask what when why how where um but i always i go in with an essence of trust and you know the agencies had just been appointed it was a matter of weeks the contracts weren't even fully signed when when i joined and a lot of people go in and say i want to change everything i i it's not how i go in i go in and want to understand the history and i wanted to understand where this had come from and actually you know i don't think they'll mind me saying it i went into a time when tv ad had already been produced i'm looking over to my right um i don't think we've ever spoken about this but it's coming now no better place for it to come out safe safe audience here it's yeah it's totally off the record clearly with the cameras and microphones but anyway we're going to talk about it because it is about the journey because nothing is right really our first time and actually it came into a time and it was an advert that for its time coming immediately out of covid as the uk had opened six borders could have really worked the problem is it takes a little while for it to get through production and then get onto tv i remember the first time i looked at it and i was just like uh no like but why am i saying no did i not like the idea did i not like the execution like why is this resonating and it was quite a visceral reaction i'm looking at lucy i had quite a visceral reaction to this tv ad and you know you could appreciate his brilliance you could appreciate the work of the uncommon and you got it wasn't like it was weird yeah but it was just a couple of months too out of date and i was like we can't run it we did a few edits we tried to edit a few things around and we just couldn't make it work so we decided that that wasn't going to happen and that we were going to rethink.

19:38But the one thing that struck me from the beginning that we wouldn't rethink was the platform. Because for every reason we spoke about a bit earlier, British Original worked in British Airways. And it worked in the UK and it worked overseas. And I saw that it could work. I have for many years had this concept of customers because, you know, looking after customer and brand, I think is fundamental. I think it allows us particularly lean service brands to do what we need to do. I have this concept of customers. We have two types of customers. So we have external customers. They're the people who we're so lucky choose to spend their money to fly with us every day and internal customers, and that's our colleagues.

20:15So everything that we do from a brand perspective has to work for those because our customers are fiercely loyal, hugely passionate about the brand, want us to succeed, often our harshest critics, you know, and we have to listen to that. But I was like, this could really work. This could work at home. This could work abroad. This could work internally. I'm partnering with Lisa Tremble, who looks after, you know, corporate affairs and people at British Airways. We can make this something. But we had to rethink how we would execute it. And so, you know, you sit down and you give this news to an agency, which isn't easy, and they're looking at you going, new guy comes in, going to change everything.

20:58PMG background. Don't get in. Never heard of it. hasn't worked in the UK for 20 odd years. Like, who the heck is he coming in? He did head and shoulders. Nothing like he, yeah, exactly. You know, and you know, worked in the Middle East. Who does he think we are? What budgets do we have? And you go, right, I love your idea, but I hate this TV ad. And I was honest from, I was fiercely honest from day one. And I was like, right, how are we going to, how are we going to make this work? And we sat down and we sat down with MGOMD. And I think that's really key to have the internal team, you know, the creative agency and the media agency all working together and go, right, how are we going to rescue this?

21:34And I'll tell you what, what has been brilliant as you've seen it develop is you see that purpose of your visit campaign, which is the business leisure insert line here. The one that we are so proud won the Grand Prix a few years ago. You know, that came from that idea of people are traveling for different reasons after COVID and everyone's traveling for an individual reason. so what I really liked was watching uncommon and there you know there was over 500 executions published in the first round there was actually over 600 written but sometimes you have to control uncommon's creativity because it it can be a little bit yeah we're not publishing that one but they're over 500 and they five out of six yeah exactly I think it's great and they sat down with mgomd and issued mgomd the challenge that if we come up with 500 different executions across outdoor print and digital can you find us 500 different locations in which we could show these and what i really love was oh that is original that is a challenge can they do it and ng are d stepped up and we're now i think we're over 900 executions now because we're able to use that to capture the zeitgeist at the time you know around big sporting championships our rugby partnership at heathrow on sunday there was business leisure dad jokes because it was father's day so it's a campaign that's still really running well and it works because not only is the creative great but the placement of the creative is is great too and that platform has allowed us to do it it's worked here it's worked in india it's worked in the us so we did uh we did a big campaign for purpose we visit last summer in the us and i was in new york and i saw business leisure jitney which i think is the coach that takes you off to the hamptons yeah i saw it i remember seeing the development of that and my one thing was we will use British English there will be used there will not be said for us because we are British airways but it can work there it works in India so you know you look back and you think you know it has worked but it came from it came from a brilliant idea with the first execution that maybe wasn't wasn't right at the time what I do love though is that out of that advert MGOND came up with an idea to create idents at the beginning of end of ad breaks so we actually used a lot of the advert we just didn't play as a 30 or a 45 second spot so they came up with another way of doing it again an apartment ship and and you know and that's been brilliant and the other thing was looking after customer brand I had to see this come to life through the customer experience and I think that was probably different than when I joined I think with the idea but I don't think it necessarily looking to I'm looking to see if they hate me yet but you know i wanted to bring it to life and you know and i love seeing that be that through the inflate entertainment the new you know english sparkling wine that we've got on board um the new seats on our short haul aircraft which have been made from all four corners of the uk and the republic violent and you know we have a new tea brand a classic british tea band on board we have the pick and mix in the lounges we have the afternoon tea own this british quirkiness and And then you see it come through the creative.

24:45Then you see it come through the first safety video, which was celebrating normal Brits, you know, just life in Britain through to the kind of period drama. And making me feel like traveling. Well, that is the aim of what you're doing, right? Like, I think, you know, and, and I think it works, and it works internally and it resonates internally and it resonates with something. And I think this is where, because I do think there's always a bit of luck and chance in things that go. one thing I've always believed in is everyone being themselves when they come to work. And you hear me talk about consistency a lot.

25:19And consistency is important, but consistency can be delivered with individuality. And that's the secret sauce. And I think that's what British Airways has got. I think that's what Britain's got. I think that's what modern Britain's got. The other thing is, when I joined, it was all about brand buildback. That was one of our transformation initiatives. we need to build this iconic brand 105 years well back then 104 but you know 105 103 we're 105 years of flying now you know a brand that is loved by many people and known by so many awareness is high preference thankfully is still high but had taken a dip as all of travel and aviation in particular did during the pandemic and you have to kind of think back okay we need to bring back this magic and it was a few months in that I realized I don't want to build this brand back I want to build this brand forward yeah I love that and I'm a massive fan of heritage you know if you our first safety video little sims rapper holds up her headphones and she's listening to the flower duet which has been so synonymous with British Airways for so many years I'm such a fan of where this brand has been.

26:32And I'm so honored to be, you know, one of the people guardian of the brand at the moment, you have to pay its respect. So I love heritage, but I don't like legacy. In fact, I really dislike legacy. That's our headline. So I really wanted to take something and issue the challenge to the team. So the internal BA team to uncommon to NGO and D and say, how are we going to build this brand forward? How are we going to represent modern Britain? How are we going to do something differently? And that's where things like the period drama safety video come into their own. You take something classically British, Downton Abbey meets Bridgerton, and then you throw in the British quirkiness and the British Airways brand quirkiness.

27:14And that's when you can see it come to life. So I'm so very humbled and honoured and proud to have been part of that. And I am a small part in a massive team because this brand of British Airways is not only the 40 ,000 odd colleagues that now work for British Airways. It is everyone that's ever chosen to fly with us in all the corners of the globe and everyone that thinks about flying with us. And then when you can bring on the back of it commercial success, because let's face it, we're here to sell airline sales. That's what we're here for. You can get lost sometimes in all this, you know, creativity.

27:48to and always what I give the agencies. We're not making an advert just to win an award. We're here to sell airline seats and they always reply with the same thing. Why can't we do both? And they did. And they did.

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29:11Could you talk a little bit more about the internal side of this? We talked about the external and internal, and I love that. In fact, we interviewed American Express earlier, and they used the same concept. They said, obviously, we're taking care of our external customers, protect, defend, so on and so forth. But 70 ,000 people inside are our best ambassadors, and we have to care for them, communicate with them, listen to them. They're all part of the campaign, if you will. We absolutely do. We have to. But we also, as a service brand, particularly pilots, cabin crew, airport staff, who never come to an office, really.

29:42Right, right. Their working environment is the aircraft. They're out on the front line each and every day. You know, they are our brand. 24-7, 365 days a year across all the corners of the globe. So you have to bring them on that journey. So as I said, I've been working very closely with Lisa, Tremble, who's our chief people and corporate affairs officer, because she runs the internal comm side of things. Her expert team, they'll do that. And go, how can we bring this to life together? And it lends itself. the platform lends itself as we continue on this seven billion pound transformation journey as we continue on this journey to creating a better ba british original is part of that but they merge together because it encourages everyone to be themselves we've been you know we've seen engagement grow significantly in the past three years very proud of that now we've got a long way to go as we do on all metrics but you know we know we're heading the right direction my part of that is making sure that the customer experience we offer that the environments you know when we design aircraft in lounges i'm not just thinking about the customers i'm thinking about this as the working environment so many of our colleagues and the other thing was really important to me and it comes from being on that front line of airlines for so many years you know i remember the first casting and the first proposal of people in our adverts and i was like we are not using actors we are not using models you know we are back then we were 37 000 people in british airways when we're doing this.

31:09We took about 10 ,000 people in in 18 months post-pandemic. And I was like, we have got everyone here. We've got, we can absolutely use our own people to bring it to life. And it became a slight obsession of mine. I mean, I feel sorry for the agencies and the internal team who listened to me do this. But even at Heathrow now, and at Mumbai Airport, Amsterdam Airport, Delhi Airport, the announcements you hear on British Airways flights are no longer the airport announcement. They are our colleagues. Oh, wow. Who are announcing it Because you have to realize that we're in a brand like this. It is your colleagues together with your customers.