Rachel Thornton (Adobe) | Exploring Curiosity Through Digital Experiences

24:08Previous episode. The dive deep. And that's so Amazon, but it's so, it's just, I think it's critical because when you do that, you can really get a feel for, okay, what's really going on? What's really happening? I work with sales. I've always worked with sales. I love working with sales. I have huge respect for that profession because it's hard to do every day. But I was talking with our CRO and I said, hey, let's look at maybe some of the root causes of this, but let's more than that ask, hey, how is it performing? Because depending on the answers we get, it's going to help us understand what maybe the issues are we need to fix.

24:45But if you don't quite get to what are the issues, you can find yourself going down a path of, I have a solution for this, but it isn't actually the problem. You have a different problem. But if you don't identify what the problem is, you cannot apply the right solution. So that's why I think it's so critical to ask questions and dive deep on what's really happening. When did you learn how important it is to work with sales? So my first job was in field marketing. So I worked for Microsoft, field marketing manager. Yay. That is a job in which you work with sales. Like you think every day, you know, how do you help them, you know, get opportunities, generate, just get at bats, right?

25:25Just when you think about companies that are sales led. So I'll put aside companies where it's more of a self-service motion. But when it is sales teams, it's like understanding what are they trying to achieve, how they're trying to connect with customers. And that's just critically important. And I think if you come at it with a how do we work together, it unlocks a lot of stuff. There was a ritual at P &G years ago. When you joined in marketing, you put on a brand. And after about a year to 15 months, you were sent out to work in sales for three months. not an observer. You had a bag, you had customers.

26:01I think that's powerful. Back then you were calling on stores. It's different now. So you really got a feeling for, and I still have friends from those days. And that was decades ago. No, I think it's powerful. Yes. Yeah. They also sent, when you hit about three years, they sent you to an ad agency for a week or a month. So you got a little apartment in New York or Chicago and you were on a team and not on the account team, you had to think about creative ideas and realize how hard that is and how lonely it is. It was good. So anyway, those are strong signals for the culture, right? Of what's important.

26:36What's most exciting for you right now? After like all these questions you're asking, you're meeting with teams, you're talking to the product people, talking to clients, what do you sort of, is there something you're really energized about? The technology, actually, the reason why I joined Adobe, and I think it's just what I've seen over the last four months, I think that there is this amazing need for how do you bring together customer data? How do you build the right experiences for customers? What are you going to do between the data you have? Things like AI, how do you basically integrate AI into not only the experiences you're building, but your processes?

27:12And when I look at what Adobe has with the marketing investments they made, the MarTech stack, their marketing solutions. I honestly think there's no one else out there that does it. And that was exciting to me. I am fascinated by what does it mean as marketing evolves into experiential marketing, into integrating AI into it? What does it mean to have that kind of, when people talk about AI, what do they really mean? What are they trying to do with it? I just think those are all really very, just totally fascinating. I also think There is this, you know, when we talk about experiences, they can be digital, they can be in person.

27:50I think there's also the blending of those worlds. Early on, I started doing events. So I've had some big events that I've done. But I still do think people love to be in person, right? And I think that post-COVID, more and more people like to get out. They'd like to be at events. They'd like to have these types of experiences. And so I still think that's an important component of, you know, if you think about your marketing portfolio, what are you building? I still think that is a really important and viable component for like, how do you really connect with customers? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I've known about Adobe for a long time.

28:24And when I think about that company, I now have had several experiences with you in person and obviously with your products. I mean, the word that comes to mind is just creativity. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you have innovation at it. It's the core of the company. It's however you say that is a value. So I would like you to reflect on that. You've had experience at lots of different companies that are really amazing, but you've been here now about four months. What have you learned about building a culture over a long period of time has created these amazing products, experiences? I went to your Adobe Max a few years ago.

28:58It's like, wow. I mean, it's clear you really value creative thinking and process. Yes, yes. And technology, of course, to enable all that. So what is it that others could learn from this? I know you haven't been here forever, but you know the company well. you were on the other side, was a partner with them. But what have you learned about building a culture that really sticks and that is innovation at the center? I think it is curiosity, being open, being courageous, thinking about new, you know, being willing to take chances on new ideas, being open to new ideas. I think that that is what builds a durable culture of creativity, of innovation.

29:34Just the letting people just think and ask questions and, you know, and it's funny and Amazon Harlan to think big, but I think that's very true. That's the heart of creativity. Like what are the amazing things you can imagine? And not to be afraid of any of it. I have this great creative team, you know, at Adobe that I work with and the run up to Summit and some of the changes we were making, especially on the business website. We have a business focused Adobe site. And I was talking to her and I said, like, let's be creative. Like we should lean into this heritage because no matter what industry you're in, creativity matters and creativity resonates.

30:13So let's lean in on this. But I do think that building that type of culture is absolutely about how do you be open to ideas? How do you look around at all of the things you take in to build new ideas? A lot of it is just that openness, that willing to look around, to look outside of like, maybe even the things that you're traditionally, you know, are dealing with every day. It's just taken so many sources. Like, I think the more you can take in and the more you can just look across all the different things out there, that's what makes you creative.

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31:57Now you have an An amazing career path, which we're going to talk about in a minute, but you work with a lot of senior marketers and CMOs, right? You've worked for them and you work with them as partners. So you have a really interesting view of the role and the people. So could you kind of reflect on of all the experiences you've had with CMOs, what do you think are the key characteristics of a really successful, winning, fulfilled, happy senior marketer? I think people who are creative themselves, innovative. I think people who are natural born storytellers, but I think also balancing that with understanding the underlying data that drives the business.

32:36I think the best CMOs are business people. They're problem solvers. I think they're creative. I think they think about the impact of like, how are we effective and how are we impactful? When I've worked with CMOs, worked for CMOs, I'm always thinking about that. I think how are we innovative, how are we creative, how are we impacting, but also how are we being effective and efficient? And I think when you look at, you know, people who are very good at this, like I said, you know, they always tend to, in my experience, you know, tend to have this ability to sort of come up and look across and think what is sort of the next big thing we should be thinking about?

33:14How do we look around corners and think about things? But then also, how can you like a little bit go down and say, okay, but what do we also need to do to make sure this is going to be an effective machine every day? Yeah, it's a bit of a complicated skill base, right? Because, you know, again, when I was at Proctor, my CEO said to me in the early days, there are very few people in this company thinking beyond five years. And you have to be one of them because the nature of your role, right? And it's important, but you have to be doing the short-term stuff too. Yeah, exactly. building the brands and the business and sales and figuring out what's next.

33:49You do. I think there is the, how do you sort of context switch? You look around corners, but then you're also like, okay, but how did this perform? And do we really like this? So maybe this, you know, if this isn't working, let's park it. Let's not do it anymore. But if this isn't working, how do we double down? So you really do have to be able to go up and down like that very regularly. What would you like to see more of in CMOs? What would you like to see them lean into more than they are now? I do think that there is every so often there will be a there will be a shift in technology and innovation and it tends to really take over the conversation, take over the landscape.

34:22And I think AI is a lot of that. We're there. Lots and lots of people talking about it, really all the people. And I I think that what will be important is you don't have to be an expert on it, but you have to think about what it means for your business. Right. And use it. Yeah. Right. And, you know, what is your POV and what it means for your business? Where can you see it be applied? And I think just, you know, get familiar with it, get comfortable with it. Again, no one has to be an expert, but I think just, again, having knowledge of it and a POV around it I think is important. Now let's talk about career path.

34:53You've had one interesting career path. You started years ago in Berkeley, at Berkeley. Go Bears. My wife's a UCLA grad, by the way. The baby Bears. Go Bruins. And my daughter is a double Bruin. Oh, nice. Yeah. So, so anyway. My husband, a bear as well. Okay. A bear. It's a double house, double cow house. I love that. But you're an English major. I am. I also studied, you know, archaeology, ancient history. I was torn between like archaeology and English. So it's like a major English. And then I did a lot of Egyptian archaeology. So like. Cool. Well, when or how did you decide marketing and tech?

35:32So. Was the path you would follow after? I would love to be able to say it was a very conscious decision. They never are. No, no, it was nothing like that. And my folks, you know, when I graduated, they're like, so what is it you're going to do? I'm like, I don't know. It's going to be great, though. You know, I didn't know. And actually, right when I graduated, I didn't really know what I really wanted to do. But I had a friend who had gone to work in this field office at Microsoft. And I was like, it'd be great if I had a job and some money. so yeah it's like it'd be so good if I got that and uh they had an opening actually for at the time as a field marketing assistant and I said all right I'll try it and I I started there and literally it sounds so cliche but it's so true the rest is history like I started there and I worked there for three four years and then I got to know someone who went over to Cisco Systems and so I started at Cisco Systems and it was so what was fascinating about Cisco which was you know, every company I have loved because it's been so fascinating to work with.

36:33But when I joined Cisco in 2000, cast your mind back to what happened. Yeah. So it was really, I literally had been there a few months and then they went through that correction and it was like, and, uh, they had to lay off a lot of people. I will say what was, this was very interesting because I, I feel like they went through early on this concept of remote because they had to have so many people that the people that kept, they had to be infinitely flexible on, oh, I don't really want to live in San Jose anymore. I'm moving. And so they really, and again, they had the technology to do it. They were like, okay, fine.

37:12I guess we're going to, we'll do the remote thing. But it was really interesting. And then of course, you know, they came back and it was fine. But that was, that was great. And when I was here, John Chambers was CEO and he is an amazing, he was, he's an amazing person to see in action. Just really amazing. My daughter-in-law works for Cisco now. Oh, that's a great company. She's been there probably six years. She's doing very well. And she loves it. She loves the company and the culture. And they are remote and they manage it really well. He was very fascinating. He traveled extensively most of the year because he would say he always felt like the highest and best use of his time was to be out in the field talking to customers.

37:52And it really struck with me that he really thought about, look, what is the best use of my time? And then if this is it, then I travel and this is what I do. And think of that. CEO of a big public company has lots of stuff coming in his inbox. Exactly. And he's in the field with customers. Yeah, that's great. Strong signal. So as you reflect on that career path, which is so blue chip kind of tech, is there an assignment or a time that was like extremely developmental for you? Were you really stretched into something? You weren't sure you could do it, but as you look back on it, it was like, that was a little bit of a crucible for me.

38:27When I started at Salesforce, I started actually in their field marketing. They had brought me over from Cisco and that was great. I think there were two things that I really loved. So the first one was they acquired a company called Instranet. They acquired the company. The founder was a guy named Alexander Dayon and he had worked at Cast Your Mind Back Business Objects. They acquired the company and that is what they built Service Cloud on. So I remember working with Alex to really build the Service Cloud, what it was, what the offering was. It was really fascinating. He was amazing. He was an amazing business leader to work with, just a leader in general.

39:02Mark, also an amazing leader to work with. But that was fascinating to really understand, like, how are we going to move into an adjacent market? Moving from, you know, being well known for sales and now moving into service and just all the things you have to put in place to make that a reality. The messaging, the positioning, the audience. Who do you talk to? What's your differentiator? How do you break into a market that you're not known for? So that was an amazing thing. But after that, I had worked for a woman. She was an amazing boss, and I learned so much from her. But she asked me to take over Dreamforce, which is her.

39:40And that was something. I will say that was doing that because it's such a central part of Salesforce. And it is something that everybody gets involved in, markets involved in. It's amazing. And people are so passionate about it. The community around me is so passionate about it. So bringing it to life and executing it was just, it was amazing to do. You brought up a number of bosses since we've been talking. So you're obviously curious about how people lead, what you can learn from them. Is there one boss or two bosses in your experience that have had a real lasting impact on you? Absolutely.

40:18And I think it's, you know, like I loved working with Andy. He's amazing. You know, just the way he thinks about things. At Amazon. Yeah, Andy Jassy. The way he thinks about things, the way he looks at information, just thinking about how you understand a marketer, an audience, a technology, he's amazing like that. Mark, obviously, just so good at marketing and PR. I worked for a woman there at Salesforce and I hadn't been at Salesforce very long. And we were, there's a group of us and we were actually at an event and she asked somebody on the team, okay, so how many, how many people are in that room?

40:57The person sort of looked at me and said, oh, she says, don't count, just know. And I thought, wow, that's really, that's life right there. Like don't count, just know, you know, business life that has stuck with me for my entire career, like know your thing, right? If you are responsible for something, know what it is, anticipate what you think you're going to be asked and be ready. It's, it's a little bit like what you were sharing earlier, you know? Okay. So tell me about the, Oh, I didn't look at that. So it's like, it really taught me when you're in a situation and you know that you're responsible for a thing, make sure you understand all the other thing.

41:33I have a friend that she was, she was there with me at that time. And we'll still refer to that. We'll go someplace and we'll ask a person a question and they'll be like, and both of us will be, yeah, don't count, just no. Yeah. No, again, reflecting on the P &G experience, we were told early on, it doesn't matter here what level you are. It matters how much you know about your business. So if you want to get ahead, know your business better than anyone. And that means everything. Yes. Customer, innovation, what's around the corner, competition. And that's very empowering. At that moment, I was like, shift.

42:04Okay, that's what I have to do. Like, if people are expecting this to be, then I got to know it. And I got, and so I will ask myself, like, what should I know about? What do I think people might be asking me? And I felt like then anticipating the questions that could come my way would make me better at, okay, now what do I need to lay out? Whether it's a project or an event or strategy, like as I asked myself those questions that I think people would ask me, I think it even unlocks deeper information that I can bring to bear.

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43:37We're going to shift to the creative brief. And I always ask this question. What's the first brand as a little girl growing up made an impact on you that you can remember? Okay. So I was sort of thinking about this. When I was a kid, there was this interesting shift from sort of generic clothes you'd buy to designer clothes. And one of the first things I remember was Guest. Do you remember Guest jeans? Yes, I do. I do. can remember like that shift. And my mom was a graphic designer and she'd always sort of been in the industry. And so it was really fascinating to see that, you know, that shift from like, you go to a department store and you buy clothes to now you're really looking for a specific brand.

44:17Yeah. And you bought a pair and we're very proud of them. Yeah. Well, they were very expensive. Your parents were probably amazed at how much money they were. Yeah. Right. No, it was like, oh my gosh. You know. So your mom is a graphic designer. Your dad's career was? He was an architect. Architect and graphic designer. Interesting background. Yeah, yeah. They were very, it's funny. They loved art. We did a lot of, you know, we did a lot of museums. They had a lot of art books. I would actually say the one of the earliest, earliest, this isn't particularly a brand memory, but memory around that kind of thing was they had this book on Matisse.

44:50And I remember seeing his cutouts and like that's like stuck in my head for years and years. I actually, in Nice, they have a museum devoted to him and they have some of those beautiful cutouts. Well, it's kind of a brand, I guess. Exactly. That's what I mean. So maybe that's it. So maybe that's why. So what's a current brand making an impact on you? It's interesting. I've always liked fashion. I've always been interested in fashion. In fact, I had this fun conversation with a customer and we actually started talking first about fashion. He was talking about, he'd listened to a show about MS and how they think about, you know, how they have kept their heritage for years and years.

45:23Then we talked about the business of fashion. I always find that very interesting. It's interesting to see how it changes over time. I would say it's interesting to me to see where it goes because this just recently happened and this will be a very fashion thing, so bear with me. So Donatelli Versace ran the house of Versace for 35 years. She just retired. She took it over from her brother, which I had actually forgotten that. But it'll be interesting to see what happens because so much of that is her personality. So then where does that brand go? Like, is it still her personality? Is it someone else?

45:58Actually, I find that type of thing interesting. When the brand is so infused with an individual, what happens is you make that transition, right? Yeah. Sometimes brands navigate it, but I think that is sometimes hard when a person and your brand, when there's that much alignment, it's like, where do you go from there? You should have them on the show a year from now. Yeah, exactly. Because those are great stories. Yeah. So leadership strengths, which one are you, which is a real pillar of yours that you kind of fall back on, rely on? I would say, you know, being data driven and diving deep. I think those are the things that I feel like I, you know, it helps ground me in where we need to go.

46:40And then just bringing people along. I try to bring people along on the journey through storytelling. Like, here's where I think we could go. Let's imagine what this could look like. What are you working on in terms of leadership? I will say that sometimes I'll be like, okay, I see this, let's go here. And I'm working on how do I do a good job of bringing people along step by step by step rather than, okay, let's go here. I know we're here. And then let's keep going rather than say, okay, let's break it down and say, how do we get here and here? And less about the planning part of it, but more about the here's why, the here's why.

47:14You grew up in this household of creativity. Do you have any pastimes, habits, passions in the creative field that you nurture now? I would love to say, yes, I paint. I, you know, I don't, it's funny. I think both my parents are pretty creative. I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily perceive myself as like super creative. I'm fascinated by it. Like I'm fascinated by the process. I'm fascinated by people. Like I love painting. I love, you know, fashion on the creative side, but it's, you know, that's, less a practitioner, more an admirer, I would say. Reading, what I really, I'm a huge fan of history.

47:49I'm a huge history buff. So I love reading about history. I love listening about history. So that I think is the thing that I love to do. I love the, sometimes the ability, you know, especially some, you know, in your own moment, you can get a little caught up in your current zeitgeist and what's going on. Sometimes it's nice to take a step back and say, oh, wait, you know, some of this, we've seen before and it's, it's been okay. Right. So sometimes that gives me a little bit of comfort to pack and think over the span of history for, you know, uh, whether you're talking about a current climate, a current nation, current anything, you just, you think, oh, okay.

48:29So this isn't, you know, other things have come before. So I like that. So you'd like the rest of this history podcast. I love those guys. How about reading? What are you reading now? Are you reading a nonfiction or a history book at the moment? Uh, actually it's interesting. I just finished Circe by Madeline Miller, which is really good. I really enjoyed that. And then so the movie Conclave that was up, it was actually written by a guy named Robert Harris. He's written a lot of books. A book of his I just read was called Acts of Oblivion. And it's about the persecution of the people who are responsible for beheading Charles I and then signing sort of the king's death warrant.

49:08It's very interesting. It was like basically the Acts of Oblivion, meaning find those people, get rid of them. So it was very, he does, I think he does a good job. He's, I like his writing style. Good recommendation. Yeah, a little bit esoteric, but very good. I know. Okay. Well, you wanted to know, so. Okay. Who's been the most inspiring person in your life? My grandmother. That was quick. She was born in rural Kentucky and what is still an incredibly small town in Kentucky. She was born on a tobacco farm. Do you remember the town? Yeah, it's called Seabree, Kentucky. It's in the Eastern part of the state.

49:36She graduated from high school. She's very proud of that in a time when, you know, maybe didn't make that. And she worked every day of her life, every day. And she didn't quit. She didn't have that mentality. And she didn't ever feel sorry for herself. She was like, no, you just get up and you do it every day. And that was huge. Yeah, yeah. Is she still with us? No. No, yeah. I've lived in Cincinnati. We're very across the river from Kentucky. So we've done a lot of travel in Kentucky. And my wife's mother, this is interesting, during World War II, who Kentucky needed medical people, especially in the country.

50:15So she was a nurse on horseback. Oh, wow. She went down and lived in a cabin and rode horses to go help moms deliver babies. And very pivotal experience in her life. Yeah, my grandma is one of seven kids. You know, but it's just amazing. That's a good place to end this discussion. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you. It's been a real gift. This was really great. Thank you. Thank you. And nice to do it in person. Look you in the eye. Be here in person. And it's really reminds me how important these interviews are to do in person as much as we can. So thank you. Thank you. That was my conversation with Rachel.

50:48Three takeaways from this one for your business brand and life. First one, practice makes perfect. We talked a lot about speaking and presenting on stage. All of us have to do that in a career like ours. And I loved the advice that Rachel shared about it's a muscle. You have to practice, practice, practice. And if you do that, you will be confident and you will be effective. Second takeaway, ask more questions. We talk a lot about curiosity as a key driver of CMOs on this show. I loved how Rachel spoke about her huge belief in asking questions. And when she started this job at Adobe, she just was so curious with so many people.

51:24Again, why she's off to a fast start. Third takeaway, we hear this one a lot, but the best CMOs are business people. And I loved how Rachel framed it. She said two things are important for her, solving problems and looking around the corner for future opportunities and future problems to solve. That's a great way to frame your job. And if you do that, you will always be relevant and you will always be working on things that help the organization and help the business. That's it for this episode of the CMO Podcast. If you found this helpful and entertaining, I would be so grateful if you could share our show with your friends.

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