TDI Podcast: Bourbon Ta$ting (#957)

27:02Most kids are students when they say gap years. I was a little bit older. I want to take a gap year. Yeah, no, anyway, I was based in Asia. And I traveled to Hong Kong for the weekend just to renew my visa at the time. And I couldn't believe the amount of wealth in Hong Kong at that time. It was around like 2010. And every shop, there was huge around the block. Everyone you saw had shopping bags with Hermes and Prada. And it just felt like a place where I should be, because I've always had this idea that, you know, you can be smart as anything, but you need to put yourself where the money is. And Hong Kong at the time felt like, right, that's where the money is.

27:51I couldn't enter the wine business because I had an understanding when I sold the business that I wouldn't compete. And I thought to myself, what can I sell? and someone kind of suggested to me, look, people buy art for investment. And I completely started from scratch. I knew nothing about the art world. I was an art lover to a degree, but I did some research. We realised that, you know, good mid-career art pieces tend to go up in value over a period of time. and the Chinese contemporary market was booming at the time as well with all this influx of new Chinese money and I think there were 10 ,000 apartments every month being built in Shanghai alone and these apartments were a million dollar plus so they all needed to be fitted out with nice artworks etc.

28:50So we decided to sell art for investment and everyone said you'll never sell art over the phone It's not possible because all the galleries were poo-pooing the idea. And we created a really successful business selling Chinese contemporary art to investors over the phone in Hong Kong. Wow. Side unseen. Well, yeah. I mean, yes and no. I mean, of course, with the inset now, we were able to, of course, we were sending images. But part of the reason for the success of the business was we set up a rental program. So, for example, someone would buy an art piece and then we would keep the art piece and we would rent the art piece out to a bank or whoever, you know, an office in Hong Kong.

29:35And we would share the proceeds from that. So it would enable. It's like somebody buying a boat and then renting the boat as a charter. Yeah, because one of the issues would have been that in Hong Kong, there's only so many art pieces you can put on your wall because most people are living in small apartments. So we set up the rental side, which enabled investors to buy 20, 30, 40, 50 pieces if they needed and receive a dividend every quarter. So it's more like a property purchase where you can receive a rent and you get the capital growth as well. I love that. That's cool. That's cool. There you go.

30:16So when you sold that, how did you then find the next thing that you were going to do? Yeah, I mean, again, you know, over the period of time from selling wine to selling art, although there were different products, the idea is the same. It's a passion investment. Yeah. And people are investing into something that they, you know, that they really love and that they enjoy. uh so before we sold the art business we began to get uh inquiries about can we source whiskey and this came out of nowhere you know just one day first person asked and a few weeks later someone else asked was this was this primarily out of china though this was in hong kong yeah because they're big they love whiskey there oh yeah yeah love i mean china also india believe Even though India is the highest consumer of whiskey on the planet.

31:15I was there, actually. It was either beer or whiskey. Yeah. There was like no wine. There was like no wine that was good. Yeah, that's right. But a lot of local whiskey. Right, right, right. That's the story. So we began to get these inquiries. And we're like, okay, this is piquing our interest. And we looked at the market. And then we're like, yeah, this would be a valid business. But I was so focused on the art business. and then when i sold the business it was a natural progression we looked at the market there were a number of whiskey investment brokers in the uk primarily because most people were selling stocks for investment and of course you know being local it was easy to source and we looked at it and thought right we're going to sell whiskey for investment and then of course the next question was where are we going to base a business and we looked all over the world uh of course the first port call probably would have been hong kong uh but then we thought hang on a minute there's a huge market here that doesn't have any whiskey investment brokers in in the us and that's where we are we we launched the first business uh selling scotch originally and then very quickly of course our american clients were saying look can we um can we get bourbon.

32:33So we reached out, had a few meetings in Kentucky and Tennessee, and now 95 % of what we do is in the bourbon market in the US. Wow, that's great. So let's talk about bourbon. Let's talk about, let's just, let's go forward and come back. Let's talk about the idea of investing in bourbon and why and how, and we know there's been a lot of things that have happened recently. There's a lot of geopolitical issues that have happened. We had a big, what was it, a big flood in Kentucky, in, do you mean, just, I can see the bottle. It's part of the Sazerac. It's, there was a big, oh, I can't remember. I'll remember the name.

33:21Anyway, there was a huge, huge problem there and all the barrels were spent, gone. um so but talk to me about investing specifically in in whiskey and and casks and the life cycle from purchase to payoff kind of take me through the beginnings to the end sure so okay so we as a company will go out and we will do deals with this series so we will uh reach out to japs and purchase which is one of the boxes you're i got right here this is a newbie wonderful distillery uh i could talk you know the reasons why we we highlight or or target that distillery uh one of the reasons would be that uh craig beam is the massive distiller uh beam i'm sure you've heard that name it's fairly well known in the musky circles but uh he's in the uh you know the bourbon hall of fame uh you know something like sixth generation uh massive distiller so we look at the people behind the whiskey not just the whiskey so then we go out and we'll place an order for say let's say 2 000 barrels of new make bourbon or new make whiskey so in other words we will place an order for those barrels to be filled uh on a certain date normally you know so many first quarter second quarter third quarter etc we will then reach out to uh not just our client base but obviously potentially new clients as well so look we have this offering uh it's new make bourbon which is uh what you're also tasting today which is like clear liquid uh and we will sell those in smaller quantities of say 50 barrels here 100 barrels here you know less than 2 000 obviously All our investors are accredited investors, which they have to be for SEC purposes.

35:19But we will then sell them the 50 barrels. We include eight years of storage and insurance in the purchase. Now, that's obviously very important because the whole premise of investing in Suburban is that it increases in value over time as it ages. So there's very few assets that, you know, regardless of market conditions, if market conditions stay exactly the same, that asset will be far more valuable after eight years than it was after, you know, day one. Because, you know, as you can taste for yourself today. Well, let's talk about that. So this one is, this is a new make, which means pretty much it's distilled and put in a bottle.

36:06Yeah, exactly. There's no, there's no, there's nothing softening this. No. And it says the mash bill is 65, 25, W, and 10. I'm assuming it's, there is some wheat in there, I assume, in this one? Is that what that means, the W? That sounds like a high wheat. So to be a bourbon of any description, it's got to be 51 % corn. So it's always predominantly corn. But you'll have, that sounds like a high-wheated bourbon without being there and tasting it. Right. And then there is high-wheated bourbons. And there's also things like, I mean, one of my favorites, I'll just throw this out there now, just get it off, is there is a Weller 12, which some people call the baby pappy.

36:48And I've had it many times, and it's impossible to get in Florida. And we did get a bottle recently. And if you want to buy it, it's 50 bucks. If you want to buy it on the secondary, it's like 250 to 300 for a Weller 12. I had it as a drink that somebody mixed in Manhattan in when I was in Texas. And I'm like, what is that? That's delicious. I couldn't get it. But this is much different. I'm going to just tell you, I've had this before. I'm not having this one again. This one smells delicious, by the way. It smells absolutely delicious. This is clear. It's a bourbon. It's kind of like if it was a baby, it would be the fetus.

37:24Am I right? Well, you're right. You're exactly right. I mean, it smells great, but it tastes. Oh, my God. It tastes like rotgut. Yeah, it's quite shocking. But it's all about the barrel. So everything that creates the flavor is because of the barrel. If it was in a steel vat and aging, it would taste exactly the same in six years, eight years, ten years. But it also loses some of its proof, doesn't it, over time when you have the evaporation or what do we call it? Yeah, the angel share. The angel share, yeah, which tell people what that is, but not everybody knows what that means. Well, the angel share, you can talk in approximate terms, sort of 3 % to 5 % would be lost by evaporation each year.

38:08And it depends on the climate. Of course, in summertime, it will be more, wintertime less. But the angel share essentially means that there's less liquid in the barrel, but the flavors become more intense. And the first thing to evaporate is the high amount of alcohol content. That evaporates a lot faster than water. Yes, that's right. So you have this evaporation. That's why this, while if I tasted this right now, I did taste this yesterday, actually. And if I taste that right now, it is shocking. It is totally different from the smell. The smell is literally delicious. And I'm smelling it right now.

38:45It has a lot of cherry, a lot of sweetness, a lot of sugary smell. It smells almost like a grappa, to be honest with you. It smells very much like a grappa. And it looks like a grappa. Looks like a grappa, which is obviously made from the grape skin. Sure. And grappa is also very shocking when you drink it. After the first sip, it goes down very easy. It's almost like a fruit ripening. Yeah. You know, if you get a really ripe banana, it's kind of sharp and kind of bitter to the mouth. It's not dissimilar. So over time, it becomes more mellow. So, you know, with bourbon, you can age it for, you know, 20, 25 years in some cases.

39:30It starts even longer because of the climate. We've got some bottle there that's 72 years old. And the other one that I have, which is going into a class right now, hang on. Yeah. You heard that go in? Is a five-year-old, 100 proof from Old Glory. Now, we talked about this. I described it to you. and let's talk to everybody. I see the nice legs hanging out on the side of the snifter. Very slowly moving down. Very nice. I describe this with many different factors. And let's, for the hell of it, tell people, do I know anything that I'm talking about when it comes to verbose? It doesn't matter. Your opinion is the most important thing.

40:13Well, my wife doesn't say that. My wife does not say that. As long as you enjoy it and your opinion is... I'm going to take a little bit of a, what do you call it, a snort of this five-year-old. And this is one of the makers that you invest in and then you have available. Oh, Gloria, yeah, in Tennessee, basically. But you've got a perfect example there of two bourbons. One is one week old. One's five years old. And that is the process in a nutshell. that if you just leave it alone in a nice uh uh dark uh brick house uh don't do anything just let the uh the climate do its job and let the barrels contract and and uh the angels share go up into the heavens then after five years six years eight years you have a more valuable asset than it was day one because you know nobody's going to drink what is essentially moonshine or nobody in the retail market.

41:18Well, I'll say nobody. A few people out there would. But yeah, it becomes, particularly after five, six, seven, eight years, you've got something that is sought after, not just in the States, but internationally and carries a very high value. All right, so I'm going to be a client. Here we go. So take me through how this looks. First of all, I'm assuming you have to be accredited for this. So I have to be an accredited investor and I can give you X amount of dollars. I don't know what the minimum is. Let's just use a round number for the heck of it. $100 ,000. For, again, just examples here. I'm going to say that obviously we know that the difference between the one-week-old that I have right here and the five-year-old, which I just tasted, is night and day.

42:00There's a delicious factor. I like to drink it just like Pappy would, by the way, with a drop of water and maybe a little lemon. That's how Pappy himself would drink that. Just open it up a little bit and let it just speak or maybe even one ice cube. I like a one ice cube. I'm a one ice cube. One big one. No, no, one small one. I like one small one just to make it like a cold drop of water to dissipate slowly. And by the way, folks, if you are drinking, this is my opinion, and I'm going to push this on everybody right now. Yep. Ice comes in different sizes and shapes for a reason. If you put crushed ice in a glass and you pour the whiskey over it, it's going to immediately melt and it's going to water it down.

42:45That may be the way you like to drink it. So be it. You put regular ice cubes a little slower. You put a fat, big, frozen ball in there, one ice cube, it's going to take a very long time for that to go. And then you go even further. If you just want to cool, you can put whiskey stones in there, which are just cold rocks or pieces of metal that are sanitized, just to make it colder for you to drink, per se. And that's a way to drink it, too. So I'm usually a large rock guy. I like the one big, yeah. I like the square. Yep, yep, exactly. When you've got an old-fashioned. Yep, exactly. I like those big.

43:21So I give$100 ,000. What is the general timeframe on this? Yeah, so like I said, we include eight years of storage insurance. So, you know, legally you have to hold on to your investment for at least one year. That's SEC guidelines. But, you know, nobody's buying one-year-old bourbon barrels. So when we get to years four, five, six, then we see a supply reducing a lot. There's very few bourbon barrels aging on the market that are five, six, seven, eight years old. And the market would be, or the secondary market, is most bourbon brands don't actually make their own bourbon. it's not like scotch where you see the name of the distillery and generally speaking that's where it's been made for the last you know 300 years um if you look in go to your liquor store probably at least 50 percent of the bourbon brands buy the barrels in aged bottle them the following day and then sell sell that as their uh their blended products if you like so but they won't tell you that they say it's their own except for i think i said larceny larceny you know larceny will the whole point of, I think, the name of Larceny, that bourbon, is that they stole the recipe from somebody else and they re-bottled it.

44:42That's the point. I'm not surprised. But yeah, so a lot of the, previously, a lot of the bourbons came from MGP, which is, isn't it, in Kentucky, it's in Indiana. So it's, you know, it's, there's a lot of marketing involved, but what it means is that for people or investors who are holding six, seven, eight-year-old barrels, they've got a valuable asset and there's a there's a lot of demand uh because as i say there's there's very few aged barrels in the marketplace so uh after that you're basically you said you're gonna you're you're including eight years of storage and insurance are you actually you actually have warehouses or you're leaving them at the distillers for a period of time because they you don't just get a barrel let it sit they got to work it and they got to taste test it and all that right yeah Yeah, that's right.

45:34So we leave them at the distillery. So it's a little bit like with wine, that the provenance is very important. So if anybody's going to buy, you know, 50, 100, 1000 barrels for their brand, they want to know, of course, they're going to try and test it and taste it, but they want to know they've been stored correctly. So you couldn't get a better storage facility than where it's made, because like anything, the less travel, the better. Yeah. And what about the insurance? That's an interesting thing, because the name I was trying to think of before was Buffalo Trace. Buffalo Trace had a big flood.

46:09It ruined a ton of the bourbon that they had and a variety of their, I think they do Blade & Bough. They do a variety of different brands there. What is the insurance cover? How does that work? Yeah, no, everything's covered by Lords of London. So, of course, this is a highly combustible element. Interestingly, if you go and visit the distillery, you'll always see by the front door, it could be like, you know, 40 ,000 barrels in there. And they have like a pocket-sized fire extinguisher by the front door. and it always like you know it's ridiculous but we have to have it but yeah obviously technology has improved these days and there used to be a lot more people smoking I guess which was one of the main risks wow it's like smoking in the gas station it's crazy yeah everything's fully insured and you know if worse came to the worst there's a fire or a flood or a tornado then the barrels replaced, fully replaced, and we've tried another eight-year storage.

47:17So what's been the rate of return over the eight-year cycle? Again, you know, we can't, there's no guarantees, but what we've seen historically is somewhere around about the sort of 12 % per annum mark, something like this. Net to the client? Yeah, so in the double figures. So, you know, the reason people invest, well, there's a number of reasons. One, of course, for the returns, like any investment how much you're going to make but there's other elements to it so people are looking at healthy returns it's it's a very safe investment it's it's tangible it's something that uh we actually provide vip tours you can actually go and visit a barrel so every client hopefully at some point goes to visit the distillery uh meets these amazing people that produce these brilliant bourbons, stirs the corn, et cetera, et cetera.

48:12And they appreciate them. They can actually see with their own eyes and touch it and feel it and taste it. So there's that safety issue. It's, you know, asset security, if you like. It's tangible. Yeah, it's real. And it's probably when the lights go out and the bunkers get closed at the end of the day, when you come back, probably easier to barter with a bottle of good old, you know, bottled in Bond 100 than it is to try to get some gold off. Yeah, no, absolutely. So, yeah, it will always carry value. You know, it's never going to be something you wake up and, oh, my gosh, the market's down and it's got no value.

48:55But I think almost 50 % of the reason people love to invest is because they really enjoy bourbon. And it's really nice to be able to invest into something that you're passionate about. What are your top distilleries? I think our top distillerie Jackson Purchase would probably be of one of our main ones, Bardstown. Quite a famous well-known distillery, obviously Bardstown in Kentucky, Green River. I would say they're the top four. Old Glory is a great one that you've got there. You've got a five-year-old. That's one of our main ones in Tennessee. We tend to stick to primarily Kentucky and Tennessee because it's kind of, you know, the path of ease is resistance.

49:44We're not looking to find the next amazing distillery. We're looking for distilleries with a really proven track record that when it becomes time to exit, and, of course, we can, should the client wish we can help them to sell the barrels, of course. Most clients do. We charge a 5 % brokerage fee. But yeah, we're looking for the dissilleries that are easiest to sell when they're eight years old in eight years time. And Bervin made a big move. I mean, tequila's taking over a little bit right now. I mean, old fashions became extraordinarily popular. I'm, by the way, if you want to ask me, I'm sure you're dying to know, what's my drink of preference, right?

50:27Go on. A traditional Sazerac. Lovely, okay. So a little bit of absinthe, dusted glass with a, with Pinchod's bitters, a little bit of one sugar cube that is muddled and throw Sazerac itself, rye over that with a big ice cube after stirred. That's right what I want. Beautiful. I mean, I like it old fashioned. Yeah, good old fashioned. You know, I started making my own bitters. Oh, right. I have a whole bitters kit with all sorts of really strange things. You can make bitters. I wasn't aware. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll send you a little bit of those. Okay. Yeah, we send the favor. He's made a batch of chocolate bitters, actually.

51:03Okay. I'll order those. So what about geopolitics, tariffs, things like that, trade wars? You know, you had a situation, have a situation right now where Canada said, thanks, but no thanks. Yeah. No, that's right. So, you know, tariffs come and go. uh you know the whole political scene you know when when one uh country stops buying bourbon the focus goes on other countries and the marketing budget goes elsewhere so it all tends to even up in the end and you know this is part of the reason why we include eight years storage that if you look at the reality over eight years things almost always sort of balance out So what you don't read about is the good news.

51:49Like, for example, India, which, as I said before, was the biggest market in the world for whiskey, slashed the tariffs by 100%. Yes. It was huge. It was 150. It's down to 50. Hong Kong, which, of course, is the gateway to China, which is also, as you can imagine, a huge market, they completely took away any tariffs on whiskey. So you tend to hear the bad news, not the good news. No, it's good news. But you also find there is some really interesting trends going on, though, that must be something that you're looking at, which is the slowdown in drinking in the next generations. You know, I'm very involved in a particular club down here that – it's a yacht club, everybody knows that.

52:36And, you know, I get all the stats from them. and from all the different clubs around Florida, around the country. And it's an interesting trend that people are looking for, first of all, alternatives to drinking for the same result. You know, they're looking at cannabis and various drinks like that. But there's also, forget dry January, there's also a trend for the next generation, whether it's cost or whatever, to go to RTDs, the ready-to-drinks. You know, they just get some junk in a can. I'm not talking about beer, by the way. I'm talking about some other something. Oh, no, yeah. That, by the way, started out not even as real alcohol.

53:11It was, you know, some of the stuff that first came out was like ferment, basically a fermentation, well, alcohol is fermentation, but fermented wasn't real vodka, wasn't real tequila, wasn't real bourbon. But there's that going on. That's happening, isn't it? But again, it may be cyclical, I guess, right? It is. I mean, it's cyclical. I can't say that word. but you've also got a premiumization that this taking effect as well so you know the fact is that people are becoming more fussy and more choose about what they drink uh if you if you go back you know 15 20 years it was jack daniels uh or it was you know uh jim bean it was those sort of generic brands that you know you go in a liquor store you might see you know six or eight brands.

53:59Now you'll see 100, 200. And the quality is going up. The time that the barrels have been aged for, importantly, is going up as well. So people are drinking less, less people are drinking, but what they are drinking is of a higher value. Yeah. Because you look at some of the brands, some of the core brands, like the Makers, which has been there forever, right? But they have a higher level bread. Look at Four Roses. Four Roses has a really crappy, cheap, but drinkable bourbon, but they have their small batch, which is wonderful. Yeah. And you're seeing more and more aged offerings as well. You didn't used to see many age statements on bottles, but now you're seeing more and more is following the scotch where eight, 12, 15, 20 years.

54:46Yeah, that's good stuff. You know, I find that the idea of alternative investing in something. Now, you know, there's different types of alternative. There's hardcore alternative, but there's also investing in other things than the basic things that are out there, right? The stocks, bonds, ETFs, and even real estate for that matter. There's something to be said about investing with your passion. A lot of people have a passion to drink, by the way. A lot of people have a passion. Look, I have a lot of friends that have, we went through bourbon together. I stayed there, bourbons and rice. They're onto tequilas.

55:23And there is, talk about a selection. Tequila is absurdly, seems all the same to me, by the way. And tequila can get really pricey. I mean, bourbons can get pricey too. Most bourbons are kind of that middle of the range though, even good ones. Tequila gets absurd. No, that's right. Very quickly. No, you're right. I mean, you know, it's very easy to pay$1 ,000 for a lot of tequila. We see$10 ,000,$15 ,000,$20 ,000. But, yeah, a good tequila is in the hundreds of dollars, whereas a good bourbon is, you know,$80 ,000,$100 ,000,$150 ,000. You can pay a lot of money for bourbon, but you shouldn't. So now you said that people will get to see, touch, feel, meet where their barrels are.

56:14I mean, if I was to enter into this program, I'm buying multiple barrels, right? I'm not buying one barrel. At least 50 or 100, yeah. I mean, I'm going to be on a piece of 100 barrels. That's the point. I'm not buying 100 barrels. I'm buying a piece of it. No, you're buying 100 barrels. Me personally? You're buying the actual barrels, yeah. So, you know, like I say, if we saw, say, 2 ,000 barrels in one year from the ciliary, we'll sell 50 barrels to yourself, 100 barrels to somebody else. So you'll physically, those barrels will essentially have your name on it. I thought it was, I thought you were in a pool.

56:49No, no, no, no. Sorry, I should have made that clear. So you actually own the barrels themselves. So, you know, you decide there's no decisions other than yourselves on how they're stored, where they're stored, when they're sold. You own the actual barrels. Those barrels have got your name on it. And while barrels can cost a big range, I get that. Yeah. What's a barrel cost, give or take? Around about$2 ,400 for New Make. That's it. That's it. Well, it's New Make. Right. Because if you buy something that's done, done, it's a whole different thing. It's a compounded, let's call it at, you know, we got to say at least X amount, which, you know, the compound, listen, you're going to get 12, but I'm going to get 12, but it may be a compound of 20 because you got the cost of the storage, the production, the fees involved and all the other people involved in the deal.

57:39So you're talking about that, you know, going up by a magnitude by the time it's actually drinkable. Yeah, I mean, we would expect, and again, there's no guarantees. We can't give actual projections, but we look historically. But, you know, eight-year-old barrels would sell, you know, somewhere between$6 ,000 to$8 ,000, something like that. And how many bottles are in a barrel of 750 mils? That's a good question. I mean, it depends how it's – it's 50 gallons, which is about 200 litres. So when it's bottled, more than often it's brought down to 40 % proof. So you would be looking at around about…

58:2480 proof, 40 % alcohol. Yeah, yeah. So around about, I'd say, 300 bottles. 300 bottles, right. Yeah. And when it's bottled, do I get to get one of the bottles in the end? I mean, you can keep them all if you like. I could keep the whole darn thing if I want. Keep the barrels. We are actually launching a barrel pick program as well. So because our clients generally, if they buy 50 barrels, they sell 50 barrels to keep it simple. But we are launching a barrel pick where you can actually buy one aged barrel and we'll bottle it and create a beautiful logo and, you know, a personalized bottle for you.

59:00What's the minimum investment? The minimum investment is 24 barrels. So it's about$56 ,000. And that's all in to starters or an extra piece on top? That's everything. There's nothing more to pay. like I say, the only time you pay anything more is if you want us to help you to sell the barrels, which you probably will, then we'll charge a 5 % trading fee generally after the eight years. But yeah, everything's paid up front. There's no weeklies or yearlies or taxes. Right, because otherwise I got to take the barrels. I got to call. Come on, Andrew, pick them up. 24 barrels. What are you doing? That might be a challenge.

59:38Yeah, for most people, because, you know, you've got eight years in storage, you might as well use it. So most of our clients are saying, yeah, I'm going to hold for eight years and then sell them. Good stuff. Jeremy Casler, I appreciate you coming on, informing us, educating us. And I'll take a little bit of a sip again before.

59:58Good stuff. About whiskeys, bourbons, and the idea of alternative investing. We're going to have information on the show notes, episode number 957 on thedisciplinedinvestor.com to get to caskx.com. So you can find out all sorts of information on what's going there and how to get involved if you so choose to. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for joining me. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right. Thanks. Goodbye. All right. I'm taking the rest of these sample bottles. We're going to finish those up and then we'll come back next week and see how it goes. Thanks for joining me this week.

1:00:32Thanks for joining me every week. Go over to thedisciplinedinvestor.com. Click on the Ask Andrew. Let me know what you're thinking. Love to hear from you. I'll respond right back to you with comments and my thoughts. Thank you for joining me again. I'll see you again next week.

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