TDI Podcast: Stock Market Maestros (#968)

29:17Clare Flynn Levy:Mm-hmm. And now you, by the way, you filtered, you took down all these different possible stock market maestros, which I also want to talk about the difference between Wizards and maestros in a moment. But just hold that thought. Hold that thought. Jack Swagger is a good friend. Uh, so we, we, we look at this and, and it, and it can be, um, broken down into various kinds of behaviors. Go through those three and how that shaped how you were actually working on, uh, creating the finalists for the Maestro book. Yeah. Well, so Lee's first book was, as you say, The Art of Execution. Great book. If you're interested in this stuff and you haven't already read it, I highly recommend it.

30:09That's how I met him in the first place. I read his book and I thought it was so aligned with the work I was doing that we needed to meet. And that was 10 years ago. So funny how that was the moral of the story is if you really like a book, why not reach out to the author? You don't know what will end up happening in 10 years. But in that book, he had he was running money. He was running a fund of funds and he had parceled out assets to a series of different managers who were all very highly decorated, you know, award winning managers. And and he this is, you know, a long time ago now. But even back then, he did have access to their daily holdings data because they wanted the mandate and the mandate would be run in a separately managed account anyway.

30:55So the data was contained. And so he had access to this data and he put together this best ideas fund where he said to each one of them, give me your 10 best ideas and I'll create a fund out of everybody's best ideas. and he learned a lot of lessons that I won't do I won't spoil here but one of the the main one was that what predicted whether the manager would make him money wasn't did they get it right more often than they got it wrong wasn't the hit rate it was about their payoff ratio when they were right on average were they more right than they were wrong when they were wrong so that that was about How do you behave when you're winning?

31:39Do you run those winners so that they get big? And how do you behave when you're losing? Do you cut those losers so that they stay small? That's how you get a good payoff ratio. And what he found was these three tribes of people. The connoisseur is the person who runs winners. You know, they've done all the work. They keep going. They have to have a strong stomach to be able to withstand, you know, drawdowns. But they don't give up. And as a result, they reap the benefits. then you have people who, when they're winning, what did he call the, there are people who take a, a quick profit. Obviously you don't want to be doing that.

32:29Like people who just take a quick profit when they're winning, that's not actually going to help you in the end because you need the winners to be bigger. Right. That's like, this is taking one sprinkle off the top of ice cream. Exactly. It's like, that's, it sounds like fun. It's like what my son does on his day trading app. Right, right, right.

32:48Clare Flynn Levy:I made$3. I made$3. I can tell you he's making more than$3 off of that one. It's not you. But then you have, when people are losing, the rabbits are the people who are just like frozen. They don't do anything. Or maybe they just like burrow further into the hole by adding, adding, adding in small increments on the way down. um where is so you don't want to be like that but what you do want to be uh is either a hunter or an assassin where an assassin is somebody who they just you know they cut that loser it's like that it hits a point i'm out i'm done move on just don't look don't look back don't look back you're done um the hunter is somebody who's actually going to double up they'll the price might be falling, it's not working.

33:39It's not that they then just keep adding all the way down, but they find their moment and they go big. And that's a very, you know, gutsy thing to do. So you don't find a lot of people who do that, but it is a very effective thing for, for those who do it. Yeah. If you get it right, surely, especially if you're going to double up at a lower, a much lower value. Yeah. But in the, in the stock market maestros book, we came up with a new tribe, which we call the Lumberjacks. And it was because we discovered this manager and goes back to like, how did we even choose these people? I run a software company that does analytics for fund managers.

34:18So I have access to a lot of fund managers data, but certainly not the entire universe of fund managers. So we went through Morningstar. We looked up everybody who's won any of the big awards in the last three years. Let's find all of those people and let's look them up, look up their, you know, typical performance stats, risk stats, all the stuff that like somebody who was, who had access to Morningstar and was doing like basic due diligence on a manager would do. And then we approached all of them and said, we're writing this book. We want you to share your daily holdings data so that we can analyze it.

34:56and we'll give you a report back and tell you everything it says. And if we choose you for the book, you get to be in a book. And if you don't, you get a free analysis. Right, you get it from Essentia. Right. Yeah, right. And, you know, which would normally cost a lot. So it's like, yeah, why not? And we did have, you know, a number of people who took us up on it. We also had people who didn't want to share their data or whatever, just didn't even open email. I'm sure you had strict NDAs and all that, right? Oh, for sure. And, you know, I deal with this sort of data at all times. So we have a very secure infrastructure and, you know, all the stuff is there.

35:36But I think there are certain asset management firms out there who are very behind in their thinking around use of data. And they were like, oh, we can possibly send it outside of our building. If you tell us how to do it. I'm pretty sure you're already doing that. Anyway, so we took the data of the people who gave it to us, and then we did our analysis and narrowed it down. And then we looked at them in terms of basic headline, hit rate, and payoff, but then also what we call behavioral alpha score, which is about looking at each of the seven different types of decision that they make. So picking decisions, entry timing decisions, scaling in decisions, sizing, size adjusting, scaling out and exit timing.

36:24Those are the seven that we that we think of when we think about, you know, the life of a stock in the portfolio. And and we look at all of, you know, all of those types of decisions that you've done and then compare them with what would have been achieved by chance. So the point is, are you adding value through making this type of decision? Or again, would an index fund do just as well? Or if it's a question of like a sizing decision, what if you just had an equally weighted portfolio, would that do just as well? Or if it's about timing, like, could you just throw a dart at a dartboard over a certain period and you would do just as well?

37:04Because the point isn't to tell you how bad you are at everything. is to say, here's what you're good at and let's free up your energy from this other stuff that you're doing that like a computer could do that and focus your energy on the stuff that you do that actually does add value. And people do add value, you know, particularly when they don't let behavioral bias then destroy the value that they've added, like is the case with alpha decay. So anyway, we do. It's fascinating. It's just amazing. what I find amazing is just once you look at this stuff you probably have a lot of these wow moments that was cool, that was a great trick because you can see it and you graph it and you show it but it's all historical so you can really get a step back look at what's happening there and get a really good picture of hey, and probably there have been times, I don't know this but you can either confirm it or tell me I'm just totally wrong oh, you know what look at these two months of this particular manager, something was going on there that wasn't right.

38:09Maybe he was spooked. Maybe he's having an argument with his dog. Who knows what the story is, but something is not right here. Right. And you can probably go back and say, Hey, what happened between December and January, 2022 or whatever? And I'll be like, well, it was a bad time for me on this. And you can say, you know, maybe you shouldn't be trading during times of excess stress or, you know, whatever. Or when you just had a baby and you're not sleeping properly because there's lots of science that says don't make decisions when you're under slept. I shouldn't make any. I don't think I should make any decisions ever then.

38:44We did an interesting research report. This is a while ago now, but looking at winning and losing streaks. And does that cause you because people, when they've been having a good run of it, you know, do they get lazy? Do they do they get slap happy? Like what happens? Do they end up trading more, less, better, worse? And what we found, if I remember correctly, is that about a third of the managers we analyzed showed some kind of pattern around that when they were in a winning or a losing streak. And it was typically that when they were losing, they would start trading more and in bigger size and worse.

39:25Interesting. And when they were winning, they would just typically be trading less. that's interesting because that's that's opposite of sports isn't it so in sports like playing tennis for example when you're winning usually what happens you take more risk you know you've got the grove groove going and it's something happens and when you're losing you just get almost like you step back it's very it's very opposite yeah it's interesting i hadn't thought about that but it's true i mean there's this sort of the bias is called the illusion of of control where you think somehow that you need to be trading or you trade bigger.

40:01This is going to help. I need to take control of my really bad trading right now and continue doing it. Yeah. And that somehow you can like you, you are going to affect the market in some way. Yes. Yeah. But I mean, at the very least you can, you can just call it overconfidence because statistically, you know, If you don't think you have a better than 50 % chance of the trade making you money, why are you even doing that? Right. Right. So now we know that historically you haven't. That's good to know. But you better believe that this is one of the ones that's going to win or don't put the trade on at all.

40:39Yeah. Then it's about being able to weed out which are the ones where I thought I was going to win. I was wrong. Yeah, exactly. So this book is available on all sorts of places. It's hardcover. It's softcover. It's Kindle. It's Audible. Stock Market Mastermind. And I don't want to forget about getting back to Wizards and Maestros, the differential. But one of the people you have on your book that has put a little note on here, and I guess you know, is Annie Duke. Yeah, I'm a big Annie Duke fan. Annie Duke's awesome. I mean, you know, obviously Poker Champ turned, I think, didn't she get her PhD like more recently?

41:14Recently. She had done most of it and then had just not finished because I guess she was doing so well at poker. But then she came back and she finished it. I think she's got like$2.8 million or$3 million of poker winnings in her lifetime. And then she turned into doing a lot more behavioral type of work, which, of course, no limit hold 'em if you know the game, is not poker. It's behavioral primarily. Marrily. You could have the worst hands ever, never be dealt the card through four days worth of a poker tournament and still win the tournament. Which is just wild. Yeah. I mean, you don't get that so much in stock market investing.

41:58Well, you can't do that. You can't bluff the stock market. Yeah. So tell me. Yeah, but she's written some really good stuff. And in fact, I put out a blog post today about cutting losers and why is that so hard and what are things you can do to get better at that. And, you know, she wrote a book a few years ago called Quit, which is all about that as well. And that's one of the best skills in poker is knowing when to fold them and you're going to do it a lot. So it's all about making that call. Yep. Thank you, Kenny Rogers. So let's talk about wizard and maestros. You make a distinction, and I've seen this a couple of times from you, that there is a difference between a wizard and maestro.

42:39Do I, should I say that it's because that you're trying to make a differentiation and a distinction between stock market wizards and stock market maestros? Is that, or am I totally wrong? No? You know, I'm a big fan of the Jack Schwager books and the stock market wizard. When I first started out as a fund manager, I read all of that stuff. So I think these people are all good at investing, but the people who are wizards typically are there. These are more traders. They're shorter term. They're doing. I think that as both of them are holding a wand, but the wizard is zapping things with the wand and the maestro is conducting an orchestra and trying to keep everything in check.

43:28They're running a portfolio that needs to perform all together, whereas the wizard is doing like individual. trades and may have a very concentrated set of bets. So like an Ackman would be a wizard. Yeah. Potentially, right? Yeah. Exactly. And somebody like some of the key well-known fidelity managers of the past. Exactly. You probably don't even know their names, but they're people who are running billions and billions of dollars for all of us who have 401ks. Those are the Meisters, hopefully. Hopefully. Non-indexing. So So the question I have for individuals, for non-professionals, for people that are managing their own portfolio, how do they internalize this idea that, oh, these are just these professionals that are doing this and I could never do anything like that?

44:32Of course, they don't have the same tools available to them. So let's identify that point as a real thing. But how do they interpret all of this and distill it down for their own use? Well, I mean, the beauty, one of the beauties of doing this book as a set of interviews with different maestros, where we really chose them completely based on numbers and not based on even knowing who they were, is that we ended up with a really diverse group. They all run very different strategies. Even the ones that, you know, there are a bunch that do small cap, but they all do it very differently from each other.

45:11They grew up in different parts of the world, in different walks of life. Like if anything, if you were just starting out and interested in becoming a professional investor, the message here is like, you can. And they didn't all read, they didn't all study economics or finance or go to Wharton or, you know, any of that. Some of them did, but a lot of them did random stuff. So it's not about that. It's not even about having, you know, gone to the right school or got the right degree. What it is about is being disciplined. And in the end, like, if you can't do that, then you're gambling. That's really, I mean, and enjoy yourself, you know, but know that that's what you're doing.

45:59I mean, I know this as a money manager for many years. And obviously we called the Discipline Investor Podcast and Discipline Investor Manic Growth Strategy that we have. And it is about discipline. There's things that you have to do. And sometimes I'll give you an example. By the way, we have part of our one of our portfolio strategies that is this quantitative base, right? It's like this is what will be in the portfolio. And I look at it. I'm like, oh, God, no. Oh, no, no. I don't want to put that in there. And I can't tell you how many times I've been surprised at something that I'm like, I don't, I just feel really wrong about this.

46:31And it actually works out because my system that we are, we are disciplined to follow in this regard. And this, it, it identified something that maybe I had a, a dark view of that maybe was in the past or maybe, you know, it was just a whole different situation. One I can, I remember very distinctly was we were long Carvana recently. And I'm like, oh God, no. Oh no, no, no. I don't want to do that. I really don't want to do that. And it's like, and I went to, in our office of portfolio manager, I said, hey, what do you think about not put, no, that's not how it works. I'm like, yeah, but you know, what else do you want to make an exception for?

47:14I'm like, yeah. And then Carvana kept on going up. kept on going up. We cut it finally, which was great. I was thrilled with a nice profit on it. And then it rolled over hard. And that's again, back to that again, my system obviously did what was right in that particular regard. It may not happen all the time, but gap was another one. There was a few other ones that I was like, ah, I just, I don't want that in there. Um, but. There's a chapter, the chapter in this book, um, with the James English Jones and Samantha Gleave, That's like a duo who run a European systematic cash flow oriented fund.

47:54And the beauty of it and you find that the humility is sort of a common thread across all of these different managers, actually. But James in particular was very cognizant of his emotional sort of reaction to prices falling and the fear. And I mean, having been through the financial crisis and been through lots of different situations, he knew I will not be able to make good decisions. I need the system to be the system. And we do not deviate from the system. We just better make that system be like super robust and steeped in, you know, academic proof and all the rest. And what they've done with their system, it makes a lot of common sense.

48:37But having seen their scores, it's like, wow, very impressive. And this is a score of 49%, just to restate this point, on the hit rate for them. 63 % on the behavior alpha score, which, by the way, is probably because they have a system. Yeah. Because if they didn't, it would be a lot lower because he'd be spooked out. Like 50 would be just your index fund, what would have been achieved by chance. So he's way over that. Right, and then 246 on the payoff ratio, which is a nice dial. So their biggest winner, sorry, their average winner is winning them almost two and a half times as much as their average loser is losing them.

49:18That's the way to play. Which is a great ratio. You don't have to be right more than 49 % of the time to make a lot of money doing that. And what's interesting about this, by the way, this is something I want to ask you, because when I read this and I was going over the various charts particularly on page, if you want to kind of follow me here, 181. And this is right with Jones and Cleve. But it's the Bank of Ireland share price from 2019 to 2024. So here's what I found interesting. First, I was looking at something that's going, all right, big deal. Seriously, I was like, eh. But it's interesting because they bought this down a 3 % position back in 2020.

49:52They didn't do anything with that, let it just groove and grow, which was great, by the way. It moved up to a 7 % position. They reduced it down to a 4 % position late 2023. They exited kind of on the bottom when it was going and then went back up, but it hasn't gone anywhere in 2024. But this kind of chart was interesting. There's other chart examples like this where they start out with like a half percent position. You know, they increased it to a 1 % position or, you know, because it didn't go anywhere, came back a little bit. It's kind of interesting. These are not huge positions in any of this.

50:25So here's another one. Page 113, this is John Lynn. he bought uh utang bus shares um bought a three percent position reduced it down to a one percent at the or reduced it down to zero i can't read that it's very small he reduced it to one is that one yeah okay one um exited the position again then he bought it back on the on the dip down a two percent position uh you know four years later yeah there's a lot of times those are really small positions now he's running a you know he's running a big um chinese equity fund where he has to be diversified and he's running it against a benchmark. So it's not like his PA portfolio where he could take really big bets.

51:04But the point is though, a lot of people won't go back to the well. You've heard this before, right? Like, look, I got the gain. I got the, look, so here's the, I'll set it up. Bought it at 12, bought more at 18, sold it at half at 32. It went back up a little bit more. I was lucky. I sold at 35. I'm out. Now, the psychology is I'm not going back because if I go back into it, what's going to happen? If I lose, I lose all these great profits I had. No longer do I get to stamp that as the winner extraordinaire and I could take something. Let's go somewhere else. Therefore, I can keep that trophy on my mantle.

51:43Is that you've heard this? I mean, it comes up so many times in the book of people saying, I don't if I got out, I wouldn't be able to get back in. And I psychologically wouldn't be able to get back in, which the hedge fund guys don't say that, right? Because they've been trained like, yeah, you can. What's the problem? Like each at bat is a new chance and you just better have a good set of criteria. But with the long only guys and particularly the ones who are running a concentrated portfolio or just very long term positions, they get so invested emotionally and intellectually and they go around the market telling the story of this stock.

52:21and it's all about this narrative. And then once they abandon that narrative, the idea of coming back to it, particularly if it was something that lost some money, is like, they really struggle. And I think that's a huge mistake, actually. I think there is a guy in one of the chapters, Greg Padilla from Aristotle. He makes a point about, we don't just like cut it and walk away. We just stand back on the sidelines and watch the play and see if we can get comfortable again. Because we, and same thing when you exit a profit, you made a lot of money. Great. But don't totally stop paying attention because you might want to get back in.

53:06Right. You know, that does happen. And I think most fund managers don't have that sort of watch list that's going on after they get out. I have three more questions. First, you said and you've discussed that recent performance is often an extremely poor proxy for skill because it doesn't accurately attribute the outcome to specific decisions. Right. How should allocators, those pension funds, those that are listening, are institutional boys and girls that are listening, how can they use a framework like yours to evaluate managers better? I mean, I think most professional fund selectors and manager researchers know that the performance data that they're using as a quantitative screen for managers or way of monitoring managers isn't really that useful, but it's kind of all they have.

54:10And so they use it. And then they try and supplement that with qualitative data from interviewing and doing research about the managers and that type of thing. But actually, now, if they can get their hands on daily holdings data, which they can if they're running segregated accounts, if they've allocated to a manager in the form of an account that they actually own, then they have control of that data. Or if they can tell the manager, give these people your data to do this analysis, because it's a bit like going to get your blood work done. like you should probably do it because it's going to tell you a lot more than just looking at your blood pressure and weighing you you know like we we need to actually see what's going on here so that you can be the healthiest you can be for your own good yeah and as people who are backing you we would we would hope that you're going to be healthy and good too so um there's a there's a role for the allocators to play in suggesting to managers that they get this blood work done and then know that because Essentia Analytics is founded by somebody who was a fund manager and it was founded for the fund manager, it is not about humiliating the fund manager.

55:28It really isn't. It's about showing you, here are the things you're doing that are like clearly skill and you should brag about. And here are the things that you were doing where if you did it slightly differently, you could get a better result and we can help you if you want to be helped with that. Have you ever had the big idea of commercializing this somehow to make a standardization for making it easier for others to pick those particular winners like a la Morningstar has done for the Mutual Fund universe? I'm sure you've thought about it. Well, we definitely. And earlier, well, about a year ago, signed a partnership with Morningstar.

56:11There you go. Or strategic alliance anyway. whereby we are developing this for their Morningstar direct platform. And it's just a question of, okay, well, Morningstar itself is operating off monthly data. And the world has got so much more granular than that, that this is an opportunity for them to leverage daily data. daily data makes a huge difference to what you can see when you create a feedback loop on the decision-making that's going on in your firm. Like monthly hides way too much stuff. Right. I would think it'd be interesting also if you could do some kind of like plugin on a smaller scale to like those, like we use something called Orion, you know, like utilize Orion cause that obviously has all the data.

57:01Now we have different accounts and individualized accounts. It's not one big block, you know, but still you could do composite work on that, that'd be kind of something interesting also on a, on a lower, uh, not the institutional side, right. You know, the institutional scale that if somehow you could do some kind of, dare I say AI based on your, on your protocols with Orion. Anyway, um, I'll let you run. I did, you know, uh, like a week after the book came out, I got a LinkedIn request from somebody who said, I've just been reading your book. I'm convinced that, you know, This is the way forward.

57:34And I need you to analyze my fund. And I looked him up and I thought, oh, he'll never be able to afford this. I mean, he won't have the data like it's it's complicated, except I you know, I he was very transparent about why he wanted it analyzed. And I feel his pain. And so I'm a softy ultimately and was like, sure, let's talk. And so I said to him, look, we normally we will do for a large client, a pilot or we do like a one off analysis. It costs 15 grand, which, you know, we don't actually really make money off that, but it gets it gets you a taste and you can do this analysis. And and in as a pilot, it's about giving them a taste so that they sign up for lots of portfolios.

58:19But I'll do it for you as a one off because I can see you really need it. But you do have to find a way to get the data. and here's the data template. And he said, oh gosh, our service providers aren't really very great. We're small, so we don't really get great data back. But we do get an email once a day with a PDF of our holdings. And we've been getting that for five years or something. And I said, all right, we'll get Claude out and start scraping that email because you could make a data file, I bet, by doing that. Let's see, try it. And he did, he got his team to do it. And in two days he had the data set.

58:59And in six days we had the analysis and then he can go to his board with like way more transparency in his own mind about what is going on here and what are they. That's interesting. I don't know how small he was, but I mean, our firm, we could, I could pop dated you in literally a minute, you know, of, we just, all the stuff where everything, we know everything at all times where everything is and it's all can slice and dice it in 150 ways. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some people are waiting for the hat. on that. No, you got to know this, right? You got to know this stuff. If you don't know, if you don't know where your bank account is reconciled or not, how do you even go forward?

59:33Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I'm obsessed with, it's funny. People keep asking me, how's the book doing? And I'm like, the analytics in the publishing industry are shockingly slow and poor. Yes. Like how do you live without that feedback? It's doing great. I'm going to tell you right now, it's doing great. How's that? I think it is actually. It was, it was the number one new release in its investment management space. So what, last quick things on the end here. What, you, not only did you do the analytics, but you actually talked to the people, of course, you know, throughout this. Do you have any particular favorite, like, oh, this was really memorable.

1:00:15Some story about something from all these interviews that really stuck with you and maybe even challenged your own thinking? gosh there were like a bunch of them i think probably the most inspirational one for me is josh goldberg which is the first chapter and i won't i won't spoil it but this dude has been beaten a lot of odds and persevered through a lot of things that should have put an end to him and his business and he's thriving because he is, is continuously improving and that is his nature. And he, he insists on it being the case for everybody around him. And, and what he's been able to do is carve out like a really specific way of making money and then protect, you know, just keep honing it and honing it.

1:01:10And that's awesome. Yeah. Have a read to see what the, what the juicy part is, but it is. it takes all kinds out there. You know, none of these people running big money is magically, you know, endowed. They, they have all learned a lot the hard way and somehow managed to survive to fight another day. And that's how they've got, you know, down the road to where they are. They've learned from the past. That's, that's what I, you know, when I talk to Jack Schwager too, and other people that, that, that interview other major players and the things that you read from the, memoirs and books of those players that they put out themselves, the story's the same.

1:01:50It's all about the hard work, the discipline. Discipline comes up all the time. That's why my first book was called The Discipline Investor. That was the whole point of it. I was trying to create, to be honest with you, a discipline that I could put down in writing for me. That was the whole point. That was the whole point. Like, look, you know, I'm like, you know what? I hate things that fall through the cracks. I don't want to miss an opportunity if possible, Right. I don't want to get run out for the side of the road because I wasn't looking. I don't want to, you know, all this kind of stuff that's going on.

1:02:20And let me put it down on paper. And that turned into a book. That's how that all happened, by the way. And, you know, you learn a lot. What what did you learn? What did you going through this experience with a co-author? Right. What did you find out that you didn't know before? Was there something? i mean i learned a lot about the publishing industry and how that works we know about that that's a tough one that was interesting and by the way try to do your own audible have you done an audible did you do the own your own audible i did not do my own and they wanted me to do my own audible do you know horrifyingly difficult it is to read your own book for days on end and each day that you come back you have to make sure that you have the same tonality in your voice that you did the same speed the whole time and yeah oh Oh, my, in this one, there aren't very many female voices.

1:03:11So I could have probably got away with reading. You have a great voice. You would do a great voice. Well, the person who did read the chapter where she says my name mispronounced my name. How can you mispronounce it? It's like phonetically, it's not even, there's nothing in it. There's no, there's one. No, you know what? Actually, now that I think of it, it's Levy rather than Levy. Oh, Levy, Levy. That's, I have a friend. I mean, this is why I'm like, whatever. I have a buddy, his name is L-E-V-I-N-E. How do you say that? Levine? No, Levine. He's Levine. I'm like, what do you mean you're Levine?

1:03:43Who's Levine? Okay. So you're Levine. Okay, Claire Flynn Levy. But I, and I love, I love audiobooks. Actually, I've been listening. I wouldn't have even known. Obviously, I've read this book lots of times. So you could think like, why bother listening to it? But I was dying to hear the voices. And it is pretty good. And it flows really nicely because it's voices talking, having a conversation. It's not quite a podcast, but, you know, more than a normal book. Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, thank you for writing this book. Thank you for coming on today. And thank you for all the things you do for all those people out there.

1:04:20And great stuff. Really, really happy for you. Proud of you. And you're doing great. Thanks so much. It was great to catch up with you. And, yeah, thanks for having me. Do it again. Thanks. Okay. always great to talk with Clara Flynn Levy. She was great. It's been a couple of years that we have not talked. So catching up and finding out more about this. And it's always, I find it always really interesting and refreshing and frankly, very satisfying when you hear that the great of the greats have a batting average that's usually under 50. And the fact that they can not only hit the home runs, but consistently bat and do well and achieve greatness for themselves and their clients is very inspirational to me.

1:05:13And I think that the idea that we can do that as disciplined investors, you can do that as a disciplined investor, is something to take heart. and to understand that the opportunities that we have in a stock market, a market of stocks is such that by creating a very good discipline, it's what we teach and are pounding into your psyche on a regular basis, this whole disciplined way of being when it comes to investing is what it really takes to make sure that you have the various ratios, which when we talk about it in regards to stock market maestros, we're talking about this behavioral alpha score, the hit rate, the payoff ratio, all those things that may be overlooked sometimes are extraordinarily important in the long run.

1:06:05So let's continue to be disciplined investors. Let's continue to be solid with what we're doing. Next week coming up, we have Tom Nelson. and then we have Wes Gray from Alpha Architect coming up at the end of April. So a lot of great things happening for this month. Thank you for joining me this week. Go over to thedisciplinedinvestor.com, episode number 968. On the show notes, you'll find information about Claire Flynn Levy and her book, as well as information on how to get in touch with us as well. Thanks for joining me this week and every week. I'll see you again real soon.

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1:08:08We'll be right back.