Ep 574: How Pretty Litter Scaled to $300M+ With Only 12 Employees

23:44And I would like get an order and I would print the label and I would put it on a FedEx package. And then I would go into my Gmail where we had a generic customer service and I would just answer Gmail and then go back to running the Facebook ads. And I did that alone for a year out of my bedroom. and we did$750 ,000. I did$750 ,000 in my first year working out of my bedroom, cranking it like every day. And then I was like, listen, by myself, I could do 750K. And obviously there's a really strong response to this. And I'm giving pretty basic Facebook ads. I mean, pretty good for a dude who didn't know how to do Facebook a month before that, but it's, you know, I can now up it to the next level.

24:22And then I hired my first employee. And then the next year I did six and a half million. Now we were just still two people, but at six and a half million. So there was a really intense scale that was happening. So, and the subscription model was a major contributor to that.

24:35Daniel Rotman:And what, back in the day, do you remember what, like how long did it take you to get your first sale when you started running? And did they come through the meta ads? No, the first sale, I think came through probably the TV show. Again, it wasn't a huge TV show. So it wasn't like an influx of customers. But I remember my first couple of sales, actually, I think were because we got Googled and I had learned also how to do paid search. And so I didn't make sure, because you know, it takes time to build an SEO presence. So I had to make sure that if people were Googling Pretty Litter right there, there would be some kind of ad that would lead them to the website.

25:10Daniel Rotman:Well, 750K in your first year, and I think you said 6 million in your next year. Six and a half the next year. Six and a half the next year. Like, did you think about taking money? Talk to me about your investment strategy. I think a lot of people might've, with that amount of traction, okay, let's blow this up. Let's take a series A. I had such an opposite approach to it. I was not excited at the idea of raising money at all. So I didn't. I ultimately raised a$1 million seed round. And that is the totality of everything that Pretty Little raised until all the way through the exit. And the reason I ended up doing a seed round was because there was a lot of attention.

25:53It's really cool. When you start a business, to any of your listeners who are in hubs around the country that aren't LA, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, there are amazing startup communities across the country. The one advantage to being in those hubs is that if you want to raise money, you will be heard about very quickly. I'm in Silicon Beach in LA and you have founder friends and you're kind of in the community doing your thing. And so people start hearing very quickly about this company that's growing like crazy from a revenue perspective. So we were getting a lot of inbound from a lot of the LA-based VCs and San Francisco-based VCs, of which I kind of declined them all because I wasn't interested.

26:35And I'll tell you two seconds, like why? But I did end up choosing to raise the seed round because as a sole founder, it might be to my advantage to surround myself with some really smart people to at least lean on because I didn't have a board until I raised my seed round. And so I decided to go for it and raise$1 million seed round and really only involve myself with other founders who had achieved exits and were now kind of angel investing or had started small VC funds. So really my entire seed round was the co-founder of OkCupid, who then ultimately became the president of match.com and the match group, the co-founder of the Honest Company, one of the co-founders of Warby Parker, because it was really cool to have that kind of, it's not that I needed the money, but I wanted to have those guys around me and the money was good to have.

27:28I wasn't interested in raising because when you take on the responsibility of somebody else's money, That comes with real responsibilities and obligations. And you no longer, the second you take that very first dollar, you no longer are the sole owner of your company. You have a responsibility, if you care and you should, to return that investment in spades. And those people who are giving you money are doing so with expectations that you will hopefully meet their ROI, the business case for your company. If they're going to get a board seat, if they're going to have preferred rights, they're actually going to have the ability to affect your decision-making.

28:15I mean, in the worst case scenario, there could be a large VC who has a significant presence in your company who could block you from selling your company because it could be a life-changing event for you, but for them, it's not returning the business case of the investment. There are people who can just get in your way of doing it your way. And I just really preferred to do things my way. And so I didn't want to have a board kind of squawking in my ear, telling me how they thought things should be going. Again, there's an advantage to having a board. That advantage is that you have people who understand fiduciary responsibility.

28:47You have people who have an amazing network. These are people who will be able to be there for you when you need them. But I realized that you can get that through having advisors. I ultimately chose to raise around and have a very small board, but I wasn't interested in that part. And of course, by the way, raising money means diluting your own equity in your company, which is also never a fun thing. Obviously, if by doing so, the pie gets larger because the money that you're taking in lets you scale, well, then ultimately your piece of the pie is worth more even if the percentage is smaller, of course.

29:19But there was also the component of, look, I had a lot of friends in LA and in San Francisco who wanted to raise money also for a little bit of the clout of it all, To say that this marquee VC gave me money and now I have this amazing Venice Beach compound and I have, specifically your office, and I have 100, 200 employees. But to me, that is overhead. That is burn. That is a shorter runway. That's probably going to mean you're going to need more cash. The pressure is real. No one likes laying off people if your business isn't going to end up going well. I just didn't feel like those were things I wanted or needed.

30:01All I cared about was building a sound business based on fundamental economic principles of gross margins being high, keeping CPAs low as possible, being profitable, and having a solid LTV to CAC. Sorry to your audience. I'm getting over a cold. No, that's okay. I'll talk for a minute.

30:23Daniel Rotman:Your story just of scale is unreal. I'd love you to walk us through it a little bit of you. 750K in the first year, 6 million on the second year. Walk me through your other tranches of growth and where you're at now. Where it ended. All right. So 750K the year that I was working alone, 6.5 million the year that I had hired my first employee. We went to 13 million the next year. I think by the end of that year, we were four employees. then it was so yeah so 1632 60 each one i'm mentioning is a year so 1632 64 so doubling every year 128 then it went to 250 then it went to 315 320 at that point pretty litter was acquired and from that point forward my lips are sealed because now we belong in the heirs of another of the Mars family, an amazing, amazing group.

31:23Mars Pet Care, the largest pet care company in the world. The owners of VCA Clinics, the owners of Pedigree and Sheba and Caesars and Iams and Royal Canin and all the pet brands you've heard of. Private family, meaning it's still a privately held company. And they care very much about pet health. And it was a full circle moment for me to end up coming to them because even from the very early days of Pretty Litter, I actually always kind of had a vision that Mars would be a really great place for pretty litter because of the natural extension of veterinary care that comes with pretty litter. We change color and obviously that then means go to the vet and they are a large owner of veterinary practices in the country.

32:02So there you go. It made a lot of sense, but they're also very private. So, you know, I'm not going to share, but pretty litter has continued to experience very solid growth since they completed their acquisition of pretty litter. I will share that when pretty litter was acquired, I think we were at like 12 employees.

32:23Daniel Rotman:That's what I was going to ask. That's profit per employee is insane. One of my seed investors, the investor for my seed run shared with me that we were one of the highest revenue per employee acquisitions at that time, as well as one of the greatest ROIs from any seed investment. Kind of the untold story of Pretty Litter. The reason, you know, I had a larger ecosystem of people making a full-time living off of Pretty Litter. At the point that we were acquired, there was probably 100, 120 people, but I had made a strategic decision very early on with the company that I wanted to outsource as much as possible and only hire the core competencies to then oversee those things.

33:03Because you don't have to saddle yourself with the kind of overhead of opening up your own customer service center, right? And then having all these full-time employees there at the full-time wages that you would have to pay. There are some extremely qualified and talented offshore agencies in the Philippines, for example, which is what a lot of D2C companies use, that can manage your customer service for you. And they are very much a part of our team. And, you know, we go out of our way to make sure that every single agent that's added is a cat owner and all these things. But, you know, we use an agency to manage them.

33:35And I have a director of customer service in-house who's responsible for the platform and the analytics and managing that team. So, you know, that alone is 80 people making a full-time living off of Pretty Litter. but they're not a part of the payroll. It's the same thing as our 3PLs, right? We didn't buy and own warehouses to ship out of. We work with qualified 3PLs who already have the whole infrastructure built. There's probably over 40, 50 people making a full-time living, picking and packing pretty litter on a daily basis, but we just use 3PLs. So even until today, it's still a very kind of lean and mean company from that perspective.

34:09And that allows you the fluidity and flexibility to be able to manage your budgets and add employees, but it also makes it easier to have to like scale back if you needed to. Luckily, just really honestly, fortunately, PrettyLitter didn't have to ever scale back. But if you were in that position, it makes it easier rather than having to all of a sudden, you know, close down a place that you have a lease on and get rid of a bunch of employees. And, you know, so outsourcing is a really great way to get your business off the ground.

34:34Daniel Rotman:You know, your VC story of saying this was one of the best exits or the most efficient exits that they've seen. And it's based on the least sexy product that you can maybe name. Anyway, you've made it sexy. This is lampshades. I had a friend growing up, her dad was like the rich dad of all the kids. We grew up like middle class, like normal suburbs of LA. But she was like the rich kid from school. And we always used to talk about her father is the lampshade provider to Marriott. So any room you get, his job was to provide the lampshade and they were the richest people on the block. Sometimes the unsexy product, the random, who's even thinking about it product is the product that really can take you in so many ways to the places that you want to go financially and as building in a business because unsexy products oftentimes are a not attracting the interest of very talented founders.

35:46And I think that's a mistake. I mean, it depends on like what you want out of a founder. Like, look, dude, if you want to start a sneaker company and if you want to be in the beauty space and if you want to be in the influencer space and you want to do all the interviews and you want to like have all that swag and it's cool for your clout and you want the Instagram following and you want to be like the dude who's like on all the panels. I totally get it. And I have so much love for that. And I'm from LA and a lot of my female and male founder friends are very much in that space. But the problem that comes with it is a ton of competition and a lot of eyeballs on your product from the very beginning.

36:20And that's a disadvantage. That's another hurdle to overcome. But if you start a product, for example, a kitty litter that monitors your cat's health, and you're tapping into a community that feels underserved and you're tapping into a segment that is ripe for innovation it hasn't seen any innovation in 40 years and has very real pain points and you're tapping into a TAM that's really large and growing annually and you're under the radar and there's no competition and no one's really looking to do anything in there because it's not sexy and the VCs aren't looking at it it's it's it's open field it's a blank canvas for you to get in there and make your mark and if you're really good at it before before they know it everybody turns around and looks at being like, where the heck did this company just come from?

37:00And why are they coming for my lunch? And how come I haven't heard about them? And by that point, you have the first mover's advantage. You've created a moat around your brand and it makes it very hard for people to copy you. So listen, I don't know if that's how that works in the lampshade business, but I can tell you that for Pretty Litter, yeah. And one of the tips, I always meet a founder who wants a tip or two about like getting started, like, listen, own your brand. Like I did not have an issue from an ego perspective being labeled the, like the kitty litter guy, you know, like not at all.

37:35And today that profile has evolved very much. So from like the investing that I've done and the boards that I serve on and the way that people look at me today. But at the time, like I had no problem walking in and talking to anybody about this product that at first people would probably laugh at. You're like in the business of cat waste. Like what's fun about that? But the reality is I knew that I was onto something that was significant. And now everybody and their mama has tried to copy our product. First of all, every large incumbent in the space from the Nestle's to the Clorox's have all tried to copy it.

38:14We've had tons of knockoffs try to come online. And now every big VC had approached us to want to be investors. And now I speak on panels about the cat segment, the cat market. I was on this before Taylor Swift had a cat. You know what I mean? But if you trust your instincts and you know you're onto something, I promise you the puck will be headed there. And what is not sexy today could eventually become really innovative and cool based on your leadership in the space. And so I encourage people to look at the underserved categories that are right for innovation. I encourage people to not make a decision to spend your time going into a business because you're more interested in the clout and the upsides and the fun and the cool that comes with it.

39:01Like find and build an awesome product that you have hopefully a personal attachment or story to and approach it with humility and a real desire to help the consumer, build it brick by brick, be proud and tell your story to everybody who asks. And eventually you'll land on your feet. And then, you know, then you'll like be like, I was never embarrassed to begin with, you know, kind of vibe. So yeah, I'm very much about the unsexy businesses.

39:29Daniel Rotman:We talked a little bit about the pre-interview. I think it's a rare opportunity to have someone who's, you know, architected a high nine figure business. Because we have a lot of people in this audience who are, they have a seven figure business. There's a lot that have an eight figure business of maybe a few that have nine, but talk to me about where the biggest sort of breaking points were along that process. Oh, that's a really great question. I actually do think that many retail consumer facing or DTC businesses actually hit certain walls at similar points. For Pretty Litter, I remember kind of the first kind of point that was like when we got to 20, 25 million, I remember that was like we started experiencing notable increases in our CPA that felt relatively rapid, trying to figure out the mechanics around that.

40:17I remember another hurdle was around 50 million, and that was more from an operations perspective. So I think here's what happens. I think they always say like getting to your first million is the hardest. Probably there was truth to that. But what I did notice were two big things. When you're an online, when you're trying to serve people specifically from a D2C perspective, you are serving an audience, ideally a target audience, and you're serving the most ideal customer possible, whether that's through meta, whether that's through other social channels, whatever it is, you're going to reach those customers.

40:49There's going to be a low hanging fruit. You're going to have relatively low CPAs. And then that's going to be that. Then what's going to happen is you're going to hit a point where most of the people who would have been your obvious customers had now been acquired online. And now still potential customers, i.e. cat owners, but they haven't bought online from you, you now have to figure out a way to reach them. And for us, that was like the$25 million point. It was like all of a sudden, like the CPAs were like, what's going on? And we started like really digging into the metadata and figuring out what was going on.

41:23And it turned out that we were seeing a huge increase in our CPAs because the repeat target audiences, meaning the fact that we had to continuously keep serving the ad to the same customer, was becoming the main mechanism by which we were acquiring a customer, which meant that we had reached the people we were going to reach that no longer believed, for whatever reason, that they were into your product even though they were cat owners. And a major issue around that is e-commerce adoption. There are still a lot of people. COVID helped, by the way. But even before COVID, there are a lot of people.

41:55This is my cat, by the way, making a little appearance. There are a lot of people who just don't trust like buying something online if it's not Amazon or like a really large, like a Walmart.com or Target.com. Shopping on Instagram, shopping on Facebook, there's like real hesitation for people around that. And a lot of people will look at a brand that's advertising on Facebook and Instagram that they never heard of. It's very much that, like a gimmicky, like online mom and pop type of brand. Like, why should I trust it? So you're going to reach a CPA wall. And then when you reach your CPA wall, that's when you and your marketing team are going to have to really dig in and figure out what are we going to do to be able to express our message in a way that's going to continue to reach this consumer that clearly knows who we are, but are still not buying into what we're trying to do.

42:39And there's a lot of work that needs to be done with some really smart people around you to figure out how to do that. What did you guys do? Started working on the messaging, right? So that's when we started really doing deep consumer insight surveys. And those consumer insight surveys, We're trying to share with us what people were responding to about our product and what the hesitations were. And once we found what the hesitations were, we started building a really robust testing platform where we were serving dozens of versions of our website through A-B testing and taking those versions and using a bunch of different callouts.

43:16So we would have one version of the website that was focusing on the health monitoring aspect of our product. Then we would have another version of the website that was focusing on the convenience and another one that was focusing on the odor control. And we would do these A-B testings and we would change font and we would change color and we would change upload speeds and download speeds and call the action buttons and everything and constantly, constantly, constantly be throwing out this A-B testing. And at the same time, we were doing the exact same stuff with our assets, putting all these assets into the market, especially on Meta, testing what people were responding to.

43:44And so that is when you're not on cruise control anymore. You got to work. Like you put in a product, if you're lucky enough to have people responding to your product early on, the CPAs are low. That's because you created a product that people are immediately responding to. At a certain point, you will reach those people and you're going to have to find the next circle of audience. So we did that and we broke through and then we started actually exploring other things like podcasts and blogs and radio and TV and eventually moving on to celebrity endorsements. And those things started adding to the authenticity and the validation that the product needed for those people who had those hesitations in their mind.

44:21So there was a wall. Another wall that we hit was around operations. That happened probably more around like$50 million in revenue for us. And all of a sudden, we just noticed that the speed at which we were able to get product out to people wasn't as efficient as it used to be. We were having a harder time managing all the invoices that we had to put in with our co-packers. The warehouse space wasn't enough. The packaging costs were going up. It was very rapid. It was kind of suddenly like, oh, we need to profoundly build out our operations team so that we get way ahead of this stuff. And it was really kind of an overnight kind of thing that we had to deal with when it came to that.

45:03And I can't exactly tell you why it happened at around 50. But I can tell you that the size of your team in terms of the expertise you have will matter. And especially on the operations end, it's always better to be a little ahead of where you think your company is going than always just having the exact number of people that you meet for where your business is at at that time. Because Pretty Little was scaling pretty rapidly. And when we hit around 50 million, I had a team that was at that point probably good for around 35 to 40 million worth of product that we needed to ship out. But at 50 million, the cracks were starting to show.

45:40So those were our two big hurdles. And when I talked to my other friends and the DDC and retail space that have CPG products, they all have similar stories of hitting walls out of nowhere, where all of a sudden their CPAs are going through the roof and they can't figure out why. all of a sudden, like people are freaking out that their orders aren't coming in as fast as they used to. And you're just like, what changed? What happened? And then you look back and you realize like what the reasons for that are.

46:05Daniel Rotman:So just an amazing story. I want to thank you for coming on the D2C podcast to share. What's your day to day like at this point? You're still actively leading the company after acquisition? I'm not. I stayed on with the company. So the Pretty Letter got acquired and completed that acquisition in 2024. It started as a transitionary process in 2021. So Pretty Litter was first acquired by Mars in 2021. And they asked me to stay on and continue to run the company for three more years, which I did. And they did a very cool incentive structure in order for me to do that. And then that completed in 2024.

46:39And then I stayed on as an advisor to the company since then, which I still am. So I'm an advisor to Pretty Litter. I'm still in a lot of the marketing materials. One other thing I'll share with you, Eric, is You know, people who start companies as founders based on personal pain points is always a really powerful marketing tool. You know, if you're able to share your story through your marketing because you started a product, you know, I lost my cat. That was real. And so we found that the founder story and my talking about my experience of losing my cat resonates very much with consumers and still plays a central role in a lot of our marketing.

47:19And so I'm still in a lot of the marketing materials for them. I'm still constantly in touch with the team. I'm helping to advise the current general manager that works under Mars for the product, attending the team retreats, keeping, you know, keeping a friendly face and just being there for whenever they need me. But no, I'm now in advisor mode and just kind of watching Pretty Little continue to take off.

47:38Daniel Rotman:It's a very proud thing. I love the story of the exit, that post period that you can't really talk about, but where my sense is you absolutely crushed it during your earn out kind of thing. with there's a public i tried there is public information if we want to google pretty litter acquisition you'll get like there's you'll get a sense of what pretty but we did to put it in the title of the podcast that's for sure it's out there pretty litter got acquired it's out there got acquired for over a billion dollars um which was you know life-changing obviously a crazy life-changing experience you know i just raised only a seed round of a million dollars and was able to take care of a lot of that early staff that was super loyal.

48:16A good founder has to be like a really good recruiter, right? And so coming to people, I knew the vision of the company, but convincing people, I'm proud to say that the vast majority of people that work at Pretty Litter till this day are people that I poached from other companies. Now, I don't enjoy poaching. If it happens to me, I don't enjoy it. But business is a cutthroat world. And when, especially if you're looking for amazing DTC marketers or people in ops, whatever it is, like, you're going to have to go out and find that talent and bring them to you. And usually most of the best of them are gainfully employed.

48:45So I'm very proud that I poached a lot of ours from some very notable other D2C cool brands. And I did that because I had to really sell the vision of what Pretty Litter was all about. And at the end of the day, approaching a potential employee that you want to help convince them to join a cat litter company at first is not the easiest thing, but when people really hear the vision, it's awesome. But I also felt such a sense of loyalty to those people. So when we had this massive acquisition, I was also very proud that obviously my early employees were able to experience a little bit of a windfall is because of that.

49:18That made me really proud. But yeah.

49:21Daniel Rotman:My last question, when people have a win this big, what's the thing that you sort of did for yourself or for your family that you're maybe most proud of or excited about after the exit? Retiring my mom probably was like my best and favorite action so far similar to pretty litter stylistically like who i am as a person i'm not like a jump in go quit meaning i didn't raise like 100 million bucks or something because i didn't want to do i wanted to do it my way a post-exit life has also been very similar to that like i bought a home and that's awesome and i have a decent car nothing crazy and that's it and i chill and i have my family and we travel and we're comfortable and i'm sure over time i'll figure out like what where all the fun of that is but you know chill but i will say that being able to retire my mom it was really meaningful for me um and for her because she's just around more and i could like hang out with her and see her and you know she's happier now because of it i felt like you know like uh like a rapper or like a rock star you know like like they all talk about their songs like the first thing they're gonna do is like you know like like i took care of my mama and that's what's up.

50:28And my dad, he's good too. He's taken care of. Being able to support my family has been my favorite thing that I've been able to do.

50:35Daniel Rotman:When is someone, when are you, when is someone going to invent this for humans? Dude, so there are tons of people already working on the concept. If I want to be a pain in the ass about it, I could point out to all these people that Pretty Litter actually has claims in its patent that covers a lot of the human stuff. But I will tell you that the cat market and the dog market is a large enough segment. The problem with people, humans, is now you're working through FDA approval. It's a harder slog. But that being said, yes, urine for humans can still be a telltale sign of certain things. And there are ideas and concepts of how people can interact with where people choose to use the restroom or how they interact with other things with their body that can give signs through color changing and health monitoring that I think could be really useful.

51:27And I hope that there are some great entrepreneurs out there that are thinking about it or already working on it. I've already seen some ideas. Some people have pitched me on some decks to invest in stuff like that. People are thinking about it, man. Elizabeth Holmes tried or she faked. She faked her way to the top.

51:44Daniel Rotman:But yeah, hopefully someone can do it for real. But like, you know, that's the crazy thing about entrepreneurs, man. It's like, there is a real, like in the beginning, of a fake it till you make it mentality because it's so scary. It's so scary to like walk into a VC and like be like, oh my God, you know, well, so they're going to ask me a question that I don't know the answer to, but I got to come across authentic, you know? There's a fine line between being, you know, fraudulent versus like having an almost nonsensical sense of confidence that you have to give yourself a kind of a fake it till you make it feeling that like you can push forward, but you have to do it.

52:25You have to be above board about it though, man. There's ways and especially like, you know, your fiduciary responsibility to investors, I think is a really important thing. And so, you know, God bless all founders who are out there trying to just slog their way through it, man. I recognize the biggest thing about my Pretty Little experience is I try to give myself credit. I do. There's moments where like, I don't take enough time to kind of sit back and look at what the accomplishment of it really was. and I try to always give the team that built this as much credit as possible because they're really like, you just can't, you can't do it without the ninjas that have this unbelievable skillset and passion.

53:00I mean, they are at the end of the day, the people that like run it forward for you. So those things are within your control, but there's a lot of stuff that's just not in your control, Eric. And I think like any founder who's on this journey has to have some peace in that, even though the reality is I know that that could give you anxiety as a founder to think about, but you have to have some peace in knowing that you can't control timing. You can't control whether this is the right time to enter the market and how people are going to respond to your product. You can't control economic cycles.

53:34You can't control a president who puts tariffs on you. You can't control whether the company that might acquire you is even interested. Can I give you a 30-second interesting story real quick, Eric? I found out after the fact when Pretty Litter was acquired that the person that was responsible for the pet nutrition division at Mars, the pet care division that was handling Pretty Litter's acquisition, was a relatively new transfer within Mars. They had previously been in a different department. And her thesis at the time was making a really big bet on cats, which she was very smart to do. My understanding is the person that was serving in that role literally six months before I got acquired was still kind of really dog-focused.

54:15I don't know. I never met that person. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But you definitely need to have the head of the division that's going to be managing your company, believing in your segment, right? And so I could see a world, hypothetically, we had gone to market six months earlier. And I wouldn't have known it, but maybe the guy that was running the pet division at that point wasn't, like, so hyped up on cats. He would have been a fool not to be, but it's possible that that would have been his vibe. And then he would have, like, never even brought it to the board to look at. Do you know what I mean?

54:43Meanwhile, I came out of time and lucky for me, she was very into cats, the new leader. And she went to the board and was like, you guys got to really think about this. And the board got really excited because they started looking into the research and realized like, wow, this is a major market. I didn't know that. I can't control that. That's like not on my radar. So I think the biggest thing I learned about this entire process is there's a lot that you have to bring to the table as a founder that revolves around your skills and your temperament and your leadership and your vision. and your ability to manage people.

55:15But there's a lot that is beyond your control. And you have to have some peace with that. And just put the brick in front of the brick in front of the brick and go and go and go and have some faith that at the right time it will land. But let go of the things that you can't control because it just kind of is what it is. You know what I mean? That's my two cents of knowledge on it all.

55:37Daniel Rotman:You're two cents out of the billion. Thank you, Daniel, for coming on the podcast today. Thanks, Eric. I really appreciate it. super, super interesting. One of, uh, ChachiPT agrees with me. It's one of the most interesting ones we've had yet. Uh, so ChachiPT is my, he's my homie. Yeah. Oh yeah. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. People want to follow your journey. Do you think they should add you on LinkedIn? Yeah, feel free. Yeah, for sure. Daniel, Daniel Rotman on LinkedIn, CEO, founder of Pretty Litter founder today, no longer the CEO. Um, yeah, if they find me on LinkedIn, please feel free to add me there.

56:09And I appreciate it. And people reach out all the time. And when I can pass the knowledge forward and help any founder, I can. So feel free to reach out. Always happy to help.

56:18Daniel Rotman:Thanks, brother. Lots of love. See you later, man.

56:27Daniel Rotman:Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you're not a subscriber to our newsletter, you can do that right now at directtoconsumeralloneword.co. I'm Eric Dick and this has been the D2C podcast. We'll see you next time.