Ep 594: How Odd Pieces Hit $500K on Kickstarter by Reinventing the Puzzle Category

0:00Ginny Lo:Hello and welcome to the D2C podcast. Today's conversation is a little bit different from our usual conversations. Most of the time we're talking to brands that are a little bit further along, bigger teams, bigger numbers, more history. Odd Pieces is definitely earlier than that. Odd Pieces is a story-driven puzzle company co-founded by Ginny Lo and her husband Terry, with early support from Tony Yu, who a lot of you will know from his success at Vessi. What they've built is not just another puzzle. It's a puzzle with narrative, reveals, hidden clues, and the kind of experience that makes you want to start the next one when you finish.

0:30Ginny Lo:So in this conversation, we get into the idea, where it came from, how they built the first version without some huge Kickstarter deck or giant startup machine behind them, what happened when they launched on Kickstarter, and what it looks like to build a really original product from a tiny apartment with a lot of hustle. So here's my conversation with Ginny Lowe, co-founder of Odd Pieces. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you find it inspiring. I hope you go find some odd pieces for your friends and family because it's a fun experience. And on with the show. How much did you do on your first Kickstarter?

0:59$500 ,000. Kickstarter is a totally different game. It's a whole different world. Like the customers are different. How you're doing ads on there is different. The agencies that you work with are different. The fulfillment is different. Everything is different. The people who buy on Kickstarter are very different from people who would buy on a website or on Amazon. We received an email from Barnes & Noble saying that they noticed us on Kickstarter. They just wanted us in their stores. And we're literally trying to build like an odd pieces universe here.

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2:20He's my husband now, but at the time he was my boyfriend. So at the time we were kind of, we just moved into our first place together. So this was like three, almost four years ago. And we moved into like our tiny 400 square feet apartment. And we were just, it was like our first time moving out of our family home. So we were kind of like trying to survive and scrape by. and we were also in this transition phase in our careers so I had just quit my marketing job at a manufacturing company and I was pretty much doing like surviving off of doing side hustles like doing eyelash extensions for girls doing some freelance marketing projects and selling lash supplies on the side and then on my downtime I would kind of study a little bit of e-commerce and through courses YouTube stuff like that and yeah since we just moved out we kind of had to get really creative with fun date night activities that wasn't that typical going out for a fancy date night because you know that would kind of add up and get kind of expensive if we just moved out and all that so we're just trying to find something actually fun to do that wasn't that typical like Netflix which everyone was doing during that time especially I think during this time.

3:35Yeah, it was during COVID. So yeah, we ordered our first puzzle that we did together. We before this, like we probably both haven't done puzzles for like 10 plus years. So we ordered our first puzzle together and it was fun and we kind of get why people like them, but it wasn't like, oh my God, wow, it's so fun. It's addicting. Like kind of like that feeling that we get from, You know, when you watch a Netflix show, you're like, oh, my God, I have to finish the next episode. Oh, my gosh, I can't wait until next week for the episode to come out. You know, like you want to know what happens next.

4:13So then that's when we kind of thought like, OK, well, if this puzzle is fun, but it's not as addicting as watching a show, how can we make this traditional puzzle into a real story with twists and surprises that come and builds to something to where it's like wanting to find out what happens next in the story, just like a show or a movie.

4:35Ginny Lo:What did you do from there? You had this kernel of an idea that you could improve on puzzles. Your husband is a bit of the creative force. Did you guys just in that moment decide, okay, let's create puzzles that tell a story? What were your next moves after getting this initial idea? After the initial idea, we were kind of thinking, okay, well, puzzles are kind of like the same old. like we were kind of obviously we were in the shopping mode to trying to find these activities we're trying to find cool puzzles online but we couldn't find one that like totally hit all the boxes that we wanted and we found that a lot of puzzles they would be competing on a different image or oh licensing you know a character that you want to be building or a world that you kind of really like.

5:23But it was still a little bit of that predictability that was in traditional puzzles where you see the image and that's the image that you're building. And the entire time when you're building it, it's kind of like, okay, yeah, like we knew exactly what we're going to building from the start until we finished building it. So nothing new was coming. There was no surprise. There was no reveal. There was nothing that wanted to keep us building it. So I guess our next steps were kind of like we were just looking at other puzzles online seeing what we liked about specific ones what we didn't like about them we definitely liked the part where you you don't know what you're building exactly that was something we liked we liked the idea of a story and watching something unfold but there were puzzles that did that but there were elements in there that we didn't like how they were telling the story like through a 20-pager all words of reading, right?

6:23That's where we came up with, okay, we want it to be easy for the person to understand the story. Comic book is a great way to do that and tell a story through illustrations. We want it to be short so that they're not going, like they're buying a puzzle, not a storybook. So we were kind of just going through, looking at all the puzzles online, even like board games, and seeing what we liked and didn't like about each one. And then we put everything that we liked and kind of made it into our own odd pieces, mystery puzzle product.

6:58Ginny Lo:Did you do any research, before you jumped into this, did you do any research on like the size of the puzzle market or like, was it really, was this just sort of a passion project that you guys really worked on and you were like, okay, we'll figure out the market for this after or were you sort of actively gauging the market as you built it out? To be honest, no. A lot of it was like, we did it as it came. You know, like when we started, I didn't even know that it was going to hit. When we even launched the Kickstarter, I didn't know how many people would like the idea at all. So kind of just took it one step at a time.

7:32And when something hits, then we're like, Oh, wow, okay, let's kind of go in further on this. Or okay, like our friends liked it. Let's see if we put it on Kickstarter. Would people like it too?

7:46Ginny Lo:Yeah. I think the friends part is like, did you sort of went, because puzzles are like a social thing you do with like friends and family. How many sort of like friends or family did you run the idea by? And were they all optimistic? I think getting friends validation is a bit tricky sometimes because usually they're always positive. So we would kind of run this idea by people like verbally, they're like, yeah, that's awesome. You know, yeah, I would do that. And then once we actually had the prototype, we actually printed it and we invited groups of friends over. So like groups of three or four different friends.

8:22And we would actually just watch them do the puzzle and observe. Like, are they, where are they reacting? Which clues did they notice? Which did they miss? Or like, at what point do they start unfolding the story and realizing what the mystery was? what types of discoveries do they kind of start talking about it with the other person and that becomes a conversation so we were kind of doing that um with the play testing so back

8:51Ginny Lo:me up a little bit to the actual creation of a puzzle once you have this idea i think the other part of of your puzzle prototype or your idea is it's like a it's not a picture of a of roses it's like an entire scene of like multiple characters, hundreds of characters, potentially each having their own little arc in this 15 second time shift, which is pretty cool. Talk to me about making your first puzzle prototype. Well, our first prototype, it took a long time to make, like not, I'm not talking about the printing process. The printing process was super easy. We literally just printed it at a print and demand shop where you like print your own puzzle.

9:30but it's the even finalizing the concept and the worst part is like we can't we're not we can't draw so even if we're visualizing the concept in our head we need the to find the artist who can understand the concept because clearly they've never drawn anything like this before it's like a new concept so we have to explain the concept they have to understand it and then they have to put it on paper and while we're doing that of course we have to refine the concept oh okay actually this doesn't work or no it has to be way more zoomed out so we see like more characters and more details um so there was a lot of back and forth like I think the first art itself probably took like more than eight months for us to even put it down on paper like for example like this is one of the parts but before it was totally not it didn't look like this like it wasn't as zoomed out you couldn't fit as many characters or maybe the characters are bigger but um it doesn't work too well if like we want every piece that you place you actually see a detail and a change in there so like after rut like that's very important so it has to be very zoomed out where's woldo like um windmills older kind of effect for this concept to work after we did our first three artworks with three different artists the concept was a lot more clear to us on what works and what doesn't so now creating the art with our next artist of course we can explain the concept better we know what works and doesn't work and they have guidelines now um how to do that but But really like creating the art and the storyline and the concept takes the longest time for the production process and creating the puzzles.

11:23Ginny Lo:And with you guys not being able to draw, how much input, like how much is the artist coming up with it? Or are you literally like this small character is going to fall on their butt because of this banana peel that's right here? Or like, are you literally storyboarding like every single character? So Terry, he's the creative guy. And he basically, he would come up with a theme. And then he would come up with the, like what the storyline would be and what the rules are about this world. So, for example, with this one, the rules is, okay, yeah, the theme is a high school. It's this American high school kind of environment.

12:02But the rule here is that the teachers are dogs. and then the students are humans. So how does this, so there are rules in this world, like, and then that's the idea. And then he would come up with the storyline and what the twist is and what the surprise is. So what thing happens in here in the after? And then he would have like, you know, what the clues are that would lead up to this big change that happens in this story. Like, for example, oh, something here needs to explode because X, Y, Z, because it leads to this.

12:40Ginny Lo:And this whole story needs to be understood by the artist. There are struggles there because sometimes the artist, their first language isn't even like English. But nowadays, it's a lot easier with like AI translation and stuff like that. But anyways, we would have to communicate that with the artist. And then the artist would use their own creativity. and what they visualized and they would create like the layout of where the basketball court is that's all the artists or like where the drama room is where the football or the track and field and all this and this artist super cool like he's from vietnam but he visualized what the american high school would look like from watching movies and he was just telling us like from watching high school musical and all of this that he's i mean the high schools in vietnam do not look like this so it was super cool like with he even had lockers um it's great art and then while you're making it you end up having all these conversations where you're like where you're trying to figure out what's going on and then you put a little section together and you're like oh wow this reveals that the humans are fetching for the dogs or whatever.

14:00Ginny Lo:And then you start to get a picture. And then as you learn more, it probably helps you even understand how to put the puzzle together faster, maybe, if you understand what to expect in terms of the larger narrative of the image you're creating. For sure. From the beginning of when Terry presents his whole storyboard idea and everything to the final product, it is still very different. Like Terry puts in a lot of work in the beginning, storyboarding and all this stuff. But then the collaboration part, that is where it also transforms. Because you're taking the creative mind of Terry, who watches a lot of movies and like kind of like plants all these hidden Easter eggs.

14:40But also the artist and their different perspective and their talent of what they see in this art and the story. And then they're both like bouncing off ideas together and it becomes even better than what Terry had initially visualized. So I definitely think like each artist, they actually play such an important role, not only for putting what we visualize on paper, but also using their own creativity to create an even like bigger story than what Terry had initially planned.

15:19Ginny Lo:How much do you think you had to invest before you made your first sale? Well, our first sale was on Kickstarter, so that helped. Yeah, so no cost. So I would say when we first started, less than$10 ,000 US dollars to start the business. And what really did help is when we work with contractors and even the artists, we would set up payment plans where we're not paying up front. Because they know the nature of Kickstarter is we don't get the funds until after. And same with the agencies that we work with for Kickstarter ads, like they're well aware of this. So the payment plans are usually like a very small upfront and then you pay after you receive the fund.

16:12So that helped a lot with kicking off the business.

16:16Ginny Lo:When you were building these out, did you think a lot about the unit economics or anything? Did you think about, OK, it's cost me this much to make and I got to make this much more? Were you thinking about the unit economics a lot about the puzzles? When we first started, I think we definitely, I mean, yes. The short answer is yes, of course we were, because it has to be a viable business for us to be doing this. But also, we wanted to make sure that the product is not competing on price like other puzzles in the market. a lot of the puzzles on the market it's like they print another picture and then they print like it's like here's another photo let's print like tens of thousands of them real quick here's another one but ours there's so much in the development side of it that like that's where our costs are coming from like from the like eight months of developing the product the storyline the work behind it and then the artists and all of that right and like hiring the copywriter to edit the the comics the hidden clues make sense like there's all of that and then on top of that to produce our puzzle it's obviously more expensive than other puzzles because there's so many elements inside the box and a lot of work has to go into like making sure that the correct comic is in the correct envelope or the stuff needs to be inside the secret envelope reveal.

17:52Because if that's not, that would ruin the entire puzzle experience. So our cost per unit is obviously a lot more than the traditional puzzle, like not just the upfront cost of creating it, but also to get it manufactured and quality checked and inspected as well.

18:10Ginny Lo:What's your price point? And did that change or have you picked a price and stuck with it? I mean, on Kickstarter, it is always launched at a lower price point because it is a pre-sale and people are believing in us, putting in money for something that we don't physically have made yet. And they have to wait usually a few months. It's not like an instant order. But then everything after that, the price does increase. But every time we have our Kickstarter launches, it is like also like we do sacrifice a bit of um margin there because i mean the kickstarter people yes because they're pre-ordering and then also there's like a loyal following for us like for the day one people who have been with us since our first kickstarter we have our fourth kickstarter we already finished our fourth kickstarter now so it's kind of like they know that this is the time that they can get it at a lower cost.

19:06Ginny Lo:The way I just it's the product is interesting because it builds in LTV because it's like if you do this puzzle and you enjoy it, other puzzles just aren't going to cut the mustard. You're going to need to continue exploring this world that you've created kind of thing. Is that kind of the idea that you think you'll get a lot of repeat buyers? Yeah. I mean, we have like a lot of buyers who literally they would comment or they'll be like oh my gosh I can't finish my last puzzle because I have to wait until your next launch first like I'm trying to save it until your next launch comes and obviously it takes us very long to produce them because the whole storyboarding and all of that behind it but yeah like after we launched our first series on Kickstarter we launched like three puzzles on the first series there were people asking us like oh after like for example this was snack attack they're like oh but what happens after so after they built the puzzle they wanted to know the sequel and then like oh that's kind of interesting so at that point we actually launched a trilogy which was part two of this and then the part three of that so that was like super cool and then also um we definitely have loyal fans who wait for every single puzzle and the cool thing is there are hidden things in each puzzle that makes it even better if they have done all the puzzles so for example there might be something in this puzzle that is actually in reference to this puzzle and when they see it they're like it's like even more mind-blowing for them so it does kind of help with the LTV and getting them to definitely understand that our world is not just like this one world.

21:01We're literally trying to build like an odd pieces universe here.

21:04Ginny Lo:Very cool. Yeah, I could see it like the multiverse in a little bit. All these things are happening in some big gumball machine or something. And you could make that you have a meta puzzle. That's very cool. So what did it feel like when you quit your job? So I quit my job before Odd Pieces came along, but I was able to quit my job because I had those little side hustles to pay the bills. So I was working full time at a small company as a marketing role. That was really cool because I was able to see every aspect of how the company runs as a small company. But anyways, after work, I would have a few clients and do lashes for them.

21:48And then I started selling lash supplies online here and there. And then took a few like marketing freelance projects. Because I had that stability, I was able to quit my job and then kind of like travel for a bit and stuff like that. So I had those side hustles for, let's say, like two, three years while odd pieces came along. And then I was kind of still trying to figure out, hey, what's my next side hustle? What's my next little thing that I'm going to start, right? And then when Odd Pieces came along, it started obviously ramping up. I knew that it would eventually need more of my time where I should kind of let go of the other side hustles.

22:34It was an easy but not easy decision to make. Like it was easy in a sense of I knew that Odd Pieces was way bigger than all of the other things that I had going on. and that odd pieces was it. But it wasn't easy because all of those things were my like stability. It was like, but if odd pieces doesn't work, at least I'll still have this, you know, like at least I'm going to still be able to pay my bills and do this and all that. And that was the reason why I was able to quit my job, right? So that actually, I didn't even go all in on odd pieces until last year where I fully quit everything. Now I am fully just odd pieces.

23:18Ginny Lo:All in. And Terry, what was Terry's situation in this? Terry still is juggling a lot of different things as well. Like he has a... You guys are hustlers. Yeah. Yeah. So he has a lot going on as well. So his role is mainly the creative director. Yeah. How did Tony get involved? Tony, well, he was always our really good friend from the start. And obviously, he's had great experience with Kickstarter, with Vessi and e-commerce. So naturally, we would ask him lots of questions. And then so now he's kind of like our like advisor kind of role. I think it's always really good to have someone like not super in the business to be able to advise or coach from like a different perspective.

24:12Because for us, me and Terry, we're so in the business that we're so in love and like so blindsided sometimes that you just need this outside perspective for someone who's done great things as well. So that they can give you like a shift in a different perspective for us to make the right strategic decisions sometimes.

24:33Ginny Lo:You definitely need your perspective the most though, which is, and I hear this from founders all the time, is like if I knew it was going to be this hard or if I, you know, Most people don't realize what they're getting into when they do it a little bit. And so it almost takes that naivety to make you do these hard things. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Most people definitely don't realize or see the amount of work that is behind it. Like, for sure. When they're seeing the Kickstarter, they only see from when we launched it, right? But they're not seeing that eight months before that, where we were doing this, like doing 2 a.m.

25:09calls because we're talking to the person on the other side of the world and all of these different things that we're doing, dealing with the manufacturer and all these other things. It's a lot of work for sure.

25:22Ginny Lo:So talk to me about the moment that, because you had a lot of validation with friends, but you always worry whether they're just telling you what you want to hear. ChatGPT just tells me everything. He tells me I'm the best all the time, always gaslighting me. But was it that first Kickstarter launch where people just started buying it and going crazy? Talk to me about when you really felt the first most validated with this idea. I think there was two moments. One was definitely the Kickstarter. The first day launch, it was like, oh, wow, these are complete strangers who are actually putting their money in to buy this product.

25:57And they're commenting on there. You know, they're engaging. And it was like they had their real names. Like we can see who they are. It just felt very real. And then the other moment was when we received an email from Barnes & Noble saying that they noticed us on Kickstarter and they just wanted us in their stores. And that was like, oh, is this fake? You know, maybe it's like someone cold emailing random people. And I don't know, like, is it fake?

26:30Ginny Lo:Trying to get you to pay to get in or something, right? Yeah, it could be something like that. Yeah. and then when it really happened like we actually got into the barnes and noble it was just so surreal and also i think the other thing about that is that anyone that we have told in the industry they're like what we have to beg to be in stores but how did you how did you even get noticed and they actually wanted you in the store so that was just a very validating moment for us like, oh, wow, we are doing something different. We are doing something right. Maybe not enough people know about us yet, but for the people who know about us, we are definitely doing something right.

27:13Ginny Lo:We can just jump into it. The Kickstarter launch, like I know Tony has done, for anyone listening who didn't know this, Tony Yu from Vessi fame, where he launched Vessi with Kickstarter. He's launched multiple products on Kickstarter. How much did his guidance help? And what were the main insights maybe that he provided to really help you have such a great launch. Obviously the product resonates with people. That much creativity put into anything, I think, and done so well is gonna resonate. But talk to me about maybe some of the tactics or strategies that you approach Kickstarter with. Kickstarter is a totally different game, I think.

27:48Like it's a whole different world. Like the customers are different. How you're doing ads on there is different. The agencies that you work with are different. The fulfillment is different. Everything is different. Like even how, like after Kickstarter, have you bought anything on Kickstarter before?