Ep 632: SheFit on TikTok Shop's Hidden Costs and Why Your New Customer Numbers Are Wrong

0:00If you're not all talking the same language, you're not measuring the right things and then success could be actually failure. Everybody's like, TikTok shop is so successful, we got two times the new customers. Yeah, okay, well half of them were repeat customers. So did you really just spend more money on a marketplace and give your product a way of discount to get a new customer? Or were you just giving the existing customers a discount? It's crazy, blows my mind. We're not just another athleisure brand. We're not just another sports brought brand that wants to hold up fake promises to her. Like we're going to deliver for you in not only just our products, but in the community that we build and the way we make you feel about yourself.

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1:20No scroll, no skip, no little square buried in a feed. Just your brand in front of someone who's paying attention on the biggest screen in their house. Sign up today at ParamountAdsManager.com. Get your brand on TV's biggest shows by tomorrow. Melissa, welcome to the D2C podcast. Maybe you could start me off with a bit of a rundown of how you went from veterinary care, teaching, HR, staffing before becoming the chaos manager, aka head of e-commerce and operations at SheFit. I really, really like that job title. I need to put that in my email, chaos manager. I think that everyone will get a kick out of that.

2:02How I ended up here, it was a temporary thing. In between roles for a summer, I took a contract position to help chaos managed one of the brightest men that I've ever worked with in his marketing department learned probably more in my time working with him about marketing e-commerce d2c sass tools vendors agencies that I ever could have learned in four years of college ever so it was awesome and just I love the brand and once I managed that chaos they were like you think you want to help us with another area? And so I stayed there. And then I became the default of when somebody in the organization left, they're like, well, who's going to do that until we get a new person?

2:50Oh, well, I'll just do it. I'll just do it. So I just ended up raising my hand on just about everything that needed to be done. I just can't even tell you how much I've learned. My husband asks me all the time and tells me, he's like, you're so smart. You know so much you should go start your own agency and I was like I just love learning here like I feel like every time I feel like I've learned all I can I could go run any DTC I wanted to I learned something else new about the business that I didn't even anticipate like recently it's been demand planning who would have thought I would have known demand planning and they have their own language and they it speaks differently forecast and demand planning is totally different than forecast and marketing.

3:31We're talking dollars over here and you're talking units over there. So I need to shift my mindset all the time. And I love it. I just, I learned so much and I'm a lifelong learner. So it's perfect. I feel like every brand listening here either has several chaos managers that are the glue of their company. I have worked with so many different people in my life who have wrangled the way that I work. I'm curious for other brands out there looking for, people like you? What do you think is the quality that has made you be able to take in all this chaos and spit out order? Yeah, I think that the most important quality to have is somebody who can critically think and put the puzzles together.

4:11So I'm the person that if I'm sitting in a meeting and I'm sitting in a finance meeting, we're talking about taxes and how we're collecting them. I'm thinking about how that's going to affect the marketing team and whatever they're looking at implementing in their world to make their life easier and if it's going to affect the customer's experience in checkout or the marketing team with how they talk about products or how they create a new product in the Shopify store. I'm always thinking of how one thing is going to domino somebody else's world. And I just like that because I'm curious and I like to understand how it's working.

4:46And I like if somebody has a problem, I'm like, well, let me backtrack and figure out what happened instead of reacting. So curiosity and just a good puzzle person, which is funny because when I do puzzles with my five-year-old, she's way better at it than I am. But those kinds of puzzles, I'm good at dissecting and figuring out root cause analysis, all that good stuff. That's really all it takes is curiosity and the ability to put pieces together just and always be learning about what's going on. I have another title for you. It'd be silo obliterator. Because just how you describe, yeah, how you're thinking about the knock-on effects.

5:23It's so easy in this business to have your own little area and be like, oh, when I look at my data, I'm crushing it. And it's all working. But when you zoom out from your silo, as we talked in the pre-interview, you can make data kind of say anything. So you need people that can kind of really think about the knock-on effects of all the different things happening at a business like this. I just discovered something last week when you say that silo obliterator um and i have this other app partner who he he's a genius and he builds stuff for me i'm like could we build an app that does this but i don't know if any other brands are looking at it this way but tiktok shop is just blowing up everybody's like oh that's where you've got to be that's where you've got to be and all these marketplaces and they you they they can tie into your shopify store they can tie into your shopify store what you're not thinking about is when that ties into your shopify store how what does the customer look inside the profile on Shopify now because the analytics that Shopify spits out at you is dependent on what information is in that customer profile.

6:18And I just realized the other day that sometimes these orders are coming in from marketplaces and they don't have a customer email address or it's a massed email address, which means my new customer returning customer numbers are wildly skewed because there's nowhere else to get that information from unless the profiles are linked. So while this team is over here being like, TikTok shop is so successful. We got two times the new customers. Yeah. Okay. Well, half of them were repeat customers. So did you really just spend more money on a marketplace and give your product away a discount to get a new customer?

6:50Or were you just giving the existing customers a discount? It's crazy. It blows my mind. Yeah. There was a bunch of a discourse last week from different operators on the sort of hidden costs of TikTok shop. Everyone's very enamored with TikTok shop. It's an amazing top of funnel. It's also this amazing channel that you can engage a customer, convert them in the same place. But there's a lot of hidden costs with it as well, right? That aren't being baked in, even just aside from the attribution that you're speaking about. There's just all these other costs. So when you're looking at sort of ROAS in a platform like TikTok shop, there's so much more baked into it, right?

7:24Yeah, it's crazy. And if you don't have a person that's connecting all of these dots and your finance team is up there just putting stuff in the P &L, and then you're looking at your P &L and you're like looking at, oh, why didn't we make money? Or why are our discounts we gave away? It's crazy. If you're not all talking the same language, you're not measuring the right things. And then success could be actually failure. Okay. Take me to when you first started working with this visionary marketing, but often when you're working with a visionary marketer, there's some debt underneath them, or that's in my experience anyway.

8:01So what was actually broken when you came in that needed to be fixed? A lot of really great ideas that were not getting executed because then there'd be another great idea and everybody's got to stop and change to this idea. And making sure that we were on target to do the things that we said we wanted to do the previous week and making sure that people's workloads were reasonable and that we were holding them accountable for what we wanted them to do. We had all these great team members. We had such a big marketing team and everyone was doing so much. And then I think their plates were just a little bit overwhelmed with what is my priority?

8:37And so making sure that approvals got up, things got approved and people got to move on. There weren't any roadblocks in their way. What do you need to do your job today? And what do you need to get that job done so we can move on to this job? And making sure deadlines were reasonable. Well, that was the biggest thing. And it's just building a team and, you know, making sure that they know what they're marching towards and doing and just keeping it all organized. That was the most important thing. It was easy. It was easy. Yeah, totally easy. In the pre-interview, we hit on customer experience being an absolute central part of what you kind of brought to the table, opening up a ticket system that was not there when you first began.

9:20My other question is just about the bra space in general. As a male, I have limited exposure to this space. But what I have understood is that most women walk around with bras that don't fit right. Is that true or false? Yeah. And I love talking to guys about our product and our brand and all this stuff because it's – and we've had a lot of men working in marketing. Like my greatest visionary marketing director was a man. And it's so crazy because you're like, how are you going to go sell to a woman? The only way a man is going to be able to sell to a woman is if they're listening to their customers.

9:59And so if you're doing that, you could pretty much sell any product. But so 80 % of women don't know their bra size. And that's because bra sizing isn't standard. There's no FDA or regulated rule saying everybody needs to comply. This is a standard size and this is what it's going to be. So everybody gets to make up their own size chart and say whatever they are. And then even thinking about when I was a kid in puberty and got my boobs, you know, in middle school or high school, boys would walk around and be like, oh, 34 double D. I would like to see those double Ds or the double D. Like it's always about the double D, right?

10:40You hear that all the time. What's really comical is a double D on one girl could be really small and a double D on another girl could be really big because bras are weird. The sizing is weird. And women don't even know that. Like they think they can walk into the store and buy a 32D and it's going to be the same thing as a 38D. And it's not. Those are two different cup sizes, two different boob sizes, right? And people don't know this. They're not educated about it. And so that I think is one of the biggest misses. And just for women in general, we don't know. but men expect us to know about our boobs because we have them but we don't because people don't talk about them it's like a it's like a voodoo it's like we created these contraptions that you have to wear to keep yourself in place but nobody's going to tell you how to use it it's criminal it's crazy so at she fit we we open that up we talk about boobs call them boobs talk about boobs they come in different shapes and sizes and it's not weird and it's not awkward and it's not I mean, we onboarded two new people this weekend and I said, just don't be shocked when you come to HQ and you see women walking around in their bras because that's normal around here.

11:54Like, that's what happens. It's what we do. They're just boobs. Like, that's all. So that's one of the biggest things, making sure that customers knew, hey, it's okay if you don't know your size because really nobody knows their size. And it's okay if your size is the wrong size. We're going to help fix that. We'll make it uncomfortable for you. So listening to your customer and CX is important in every single business, but especially in a business where the category has been neglected or there's all this mystery in the category. So it's like doubly important in what you guys are doing. So talk to me a little bit about, I think you've mentioned it talking about boobs.

12:31This is how your customers talk about, you know, they're not, you're not trying to force a word that they're not using. They call them boobs, you call them boobs. How else has like listening to your customer really helped grow the business? Yeah. So our customers are very vocal. Luckily, we've got a great brand voice out there. Actually, it was just doing some brand and customer listening through Triple Whale with Moby last week preparing for a quarterly review. And what's astonishing to me is the things that people will tell you that they love in social media or Reddit or anywhere out there and talk about your brand or talk about the topics of your brand.

13:11And with this agentic commerce on the forefront, everybody's jumping into it and people aren't doing keyword searches anymore. They're not just searching for bra or sports bra. They're searching for, give me the best adjustable sports bra for big boobs. Like they're literally typing that in. And so if as long as Most of the time they're just riffing, right? They're just rapping it. Yes. And what's really awesome about our brand is on our organic social, women will see a woman posted on our organic channel and they'll comment. I love SheFit. It changed my life. They'll tell you anything you want to know if you just open up and listen to them and share their stories.

13:53The more you share that they share with you, the more apt they are to open up. And it's crazy when you read through the comments of women and what they're talking about with their boobs that they're willing to open up and stay on a social media platform about themselves. And when you pick up on those key moments, those are your hooks. Those are your ads. Those are your one-liners that you have to lean into and use. And I think that one of the biggest changes is like this bra absolutely has zero bounce. My boobs don't move. And traditionally in the past, it would be looked at as a negative sentiment score.

14:27Like people are saying the word no and don't. But now these platforms can just bring in all and bring you the actual phrases of what they're saying. Some of our best hooks and thumb stops in our social ads are direct quotes from girls that have put on the bra and said it in their reviews and in their comments. And just listening to those are important. And then it also helps lead your product development department because there's things that they'll say and you're like, hmm, I never would have thought about that. I never would have thought in a million years that they would want that product, but okay, here we go.

14:59And you feed that to your product development department and you've got a met need already for it. You don't have to go find the people. They were already there. They want it. That's so cool. Can you give me an example of that? Yes. So one example recently is we dropped this new sports bra. It's called the Emerge Sports Bra. And our founder was very bullish that this was going to be everyone's favorite sports bra. The thing about this sports bra was that it was a medium impact sports bra and our number one seller is a high impact sports bra. What we've learned about our customers is they don't buy sports bras by activity level.

15:33Like she's not out there. She's not a runner saying I need a high impact sports bra. If she's got big boobs, she's looking for whatever bra is going to hold her down for whatever activity she's doing. She doesn't care if she's wearing her high impact sports bra all day long because it supports her. So what we did was we shared this feedback. And so our founder created this bra that was a medium impact bra. The smaller chested girls, they could probably go run in it if they wanted to. But the larger chested girls that were wearing our high impact sports bra all day long, it gets uncomfortable when you wear it for that long because it's a performance gear.

16:09It's not meant to be an all day bra. So she listed And she made this medium impact bra that some people could use for high impact that has all of the things that the customers were looking for. They wanted, you know, sleeker, slimmer straps. They wanted pad that didn't shift around inside of the bra. So the pad became integrated pad, they call it. It's where the material is just thicker. So like there's no actual pad that like you move around inside. Kept the front zipper because easy to get on and off. Kept it, you know, moisture wicking, breathable, smooth material, all of that stuff. but listen to everything that people wanted.

16:44And when we first released it, they couldn't get the fit right to make it in the larger sizes. And we thought, well, that's okay. We'll launch it in these smaller sizes. The smaller girls are the ones that are going to go run in it anyways. It'll be okay. Well, no. The girls were like, hey, we want it in our size too. And so the product development team went back to the drawing board, listened to what everybody said about the comments where, why don't you make this in my size? Why don't you make this in my size? I want this in my size. And the thing is like, we couldn't get it to their sizes because it wasn't going to give them the support they needed.

17:18But after all those comments and all the feedback, the product development team's like, we're not taking no for an answer. We're going to get this to where it needs. So genius enough, they just made the straps, the issue was the straps. You couldn't have skinny straps on a larger size because it's going to dig into their shoulders. So they were like, all right, well, we'll make the skinnier straps on the smaller sizes and then we'll just make the straps go up in width to where they need to be for the boob that's in it. So it's literally a custom bra for you and you get the strap that's going to support you and not hurt you and give you what you need.

17:52It's a sleeker. It's a comfortable all day bra or an exercise bra, whatever you want to go do in it. So, and it was wildly successful. We sold out of all of it like instantaneously. We're currently out right now waiting for our restock because it went so fast. So wildly successful. And that was just because they wanted it, right? Once they got it, they realized it fit them well enough. How do you credit the fact that it sold out so fast? Was it just, was it the initial design or the tweaks that you made for the larger size that really grabbed people? Yeah, I think it was listening to the demand signals.

18:24What do they want? What's going to work? And not assuming that the same thing would work on all of the sizes. We just made sure that we listened to what they were asking for. And then when we went to go to market, we just used those words on them. So they're like, how'd you know I wanted that? Because the copy on the ads and the product description pages and the videos that we had, we'll send product out to women ahead of time to get their take on it and give some content ahead of time for launch. Call them, they're kind of influencers, but they're not really influencers because we didn't really pay them.

18:57We just gave them a free product and they told us how they feel and then we use it for their ads. Micro influencers, I guess. they told us what they thought about it. And so we just used their words and that's what went into the ads and that's what went on our product pages. And, and it, and it worked because everyone's like, Oh, I was looking for that. How'd you know I was looking for that? That's what I wanted. I listened. I listened. Pretty much, right? Just listening. Oh, another advice for men. Just listen sometimes. I know, right? What can you say about SheFit's growth in general? You guys sold, you guys sold this dropout and I know you, what are you comfortable saying about SheFit's growth?

19:32I can tell you that in from 2016 to 2020, we were rapid exponential growth every single year. We were on multiple awards and Inc. 500 and then 5 ,000 and all that good stuff. 2020, 21, 22 is still wildly successful. I think that we had some bumps in the road, a little bit bad leadership took us down the wrong direction for a while, but we're, we are poised for success with now with the right team members. And we're, we're going to, you know, see the same growth that we saw back before, you know, the COVID spike, because that's what we're committed to doing. But the product, there's a need for it out there.

20:16And we have a belief in making a difference in people's lives. So many girls drop out of sports because they, they're embarrassed of their boobs. And we're a disruptor. We're not just another athleisure brand. We're not just another sports bra brand that wants to, you know, hold up fake promises to her. Like we're going to deliver for you. And in not only just our products, but in the community that we build and the way we make you feel about yourself, we will like, we want women to know that they can move their body any way they want to. And don't be afraid to go for a walk because your girls are going side to side and you don't want people to stare at you because we've got you.

20:54We're here to allow you to do whatever you want to do. And so our growth is, you watch, we'll be back on all those awards here soon. We've got you. I feel like that's a good expression for your product to the customer, right? You're fully supported. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever you want to do, we're here to support you all the way around. Another phrase that we've used over time has been rethink your bra. That's been a catchphrase. And we do want people to stop and think about it. I mean, women will spend a lot of money on their kids because they need the right helmet, rightfully so, for football, or they need the right shin guards for soccer.

21:35They need the best shoes to make them faster for track. But they'll go without. The reality is that the right gear makes a difference in how you feel because it's going to make a difference in how you perform. So if you're a mom that goes for a run on her lunch break, you should probably have the best sports bra to make sure you don't get injured so you can continue to run, so you can continue to take your breaks, so you can feel good about yourself, so you can help your family. So that's the kind of stuff we're here to do. We're here for you. You mentioned community, and it sort of permeates everything you do, it sounds like.

22:08But how do you guys think about community at SheFit? Is it a Facebook group? Does it get echoed in your emails and your ads? Or how do you guys think about community? Yeah. Actually, the funny thing is we just, the person I was onboarding is our new community manager that we brought in because we are doubling down on community. We've got a private Facebook group that you have to be approved to get in. It's not one of those groups where you just answer the questions and then you're in, like a person has to let you in. So this private Facebook group, I think is up to like almost 8 ,500, maybe 8 ,900 members.

22:43And they're actually active in this community. They're in there chatting all the time. So when I have a question, like, I wonder if our customers would like this. I just go to this private group and I'm like, hey, SheFit Nation, what would you think about this? And boom, you get tons of women from different body types, different backgrounds that are answering your question. And then they have conversations about it. And it's so amazing to watch and listen. And they post their workouts in there and good job, girl and high five and I drink a gallon of water today. So that's what we're here for. We're bringing people together in a comfortable space that allows them to be them and speak freely and not feel judged.

23:22And that's what we want to do. We don't care. We don't care race, religion, background, sexual preference, whatever, like whatever. We don't care. We're all here to support each other. That's the end of the day, our message. You mentioned Triple Whale and Moby. So you've been obviously at Chief Hit long enough to have experienced Moby 1, which was sort of the great question answer. And now Moby 2, which is more agentic and actually take action for you. But you're this silo obliterator, as we spoke about. And I feel like Moby has done a good job of obliterating silos in organizations as well by actually collecting all the context across different departments.

24:02Maybe talk to me about your experience with Moby and Moby 2. Yeah, MobyOne was quickly my best friend because I had lost my data analytics guy who was wildly fast with Excel and could link this Google Sheet to that API and this and that and pull in these tables and data. And if I had a question about something, our AOV, why did it drop? Or this landing page got a lot of visits, where did it come from? He could build all this stuff and figure it out for me. Or I'd be like, I feel like this isn't working because of this. And he'd be like, okay, let's dive down that. And he would put it together for me.

24:39Well, I lost him. So in comes triple whale. And I'm just astonished at the information's in there. You're telling me I don't have to build an Excel spreadsheet for my monthly marketing report to tell you what my ROAS was? Like this thing can do it for me. What? Wild. And then in comes Moby and Melissa, who is, you know, somewhat, you know, technology, like great with technology, but sometimes challenged with technology. And in comes Moby and I was having these conversations with him about my data. And the Triple Will team was so interested in my conversations because Moby and I would actually get in fights.

25:18Like I'd be like, that is not right. Like, where are you getting that from? Why would you do that? I didn't ask you that. And I'll never forget one time I was talking to AJ in Slack. And I was like, well, I don't want to hurt his feelings. He's like, no, hurt his feelings if he's not giving you the right information. So he became my friend. He became my best friend. He's like a person. And I would have these conversations with other people. And I'd be like, yeah, well, I asked my friend Moby and he told me. And they're like, who is this Moby? And I had to tell him what it was. And they're like, oh, like ChatGTP.