The Lab | What Players Say To Their Agents During A Relegation Battle

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1:13Drink it cold, or don't drink it at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Mass Jägermeister, US White Plains, New York. Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Lab. This one is a really honest conversation with a former football agent, Jim Erward, about what the game is actually like behind the scenes. We talk about whether footballers truly love their clubs, what players say to agents during relegation battles, why loyalty in football barely exists anymore, and how modern players are pushed to think about themselves first.

1:48Jim shows incredible stories from his time as an agent, including signing Ashley Williams through Friends Reunited, the reality of dealing with young players and ambitious parents, intimidation and the criminal element around football, and the bizarre John Carew-Milan Barros swap deal, which, well, listen to the podcast and you'll find out. This is funny. I think it's cynical. I think it's surprisingly emotional in places and probably one of the most revealing conversations we've had about how football really works. Thank you very much, Jim. and if you enjoy the podcast, please hit follow.

2:35Sorry, you were saying, Jim. Yeah, just, I mean, when it comes to talent management, you know, there's big fees, there's big commissions up for grabs. So there's agents always going to slip around that, you know, and kind of what we find, like we built our business, what I was saying to you a minute ago, like going from sports and we still got sports people to reality TV. And then some of the bigger agents were very snobby around that. You know, they refused, you know, because they represent traditional talent, big name talent. The big name talent didn't want to be suddenly lumbered with a Love Islander.

3:09that when Love Islanders were making 2X, 3X the commissions these traditional talent had been making, then all these bigger agents have come calling. So, you know, instead of dealing with sort of other sort of similar field, we're now dealing with the likes of CAA, some of the biggest agencies in the world, you know, now coming for reality TV and everyone's making a grab for social media influencers. So we got a pump on them. We've done okay. but now it's trying to try to uh compete with all these big boys just reminded me of a conversation we had years back jim a long long time ago and i was like well when when are you gonna represent me and you said you'd let me know and it's that was like 12 years ago well do you know the funny thing well the funny thing is don't think i haven't forgotten how we used to tease you content we used to call you the content monkeys in the back correct yeah yeah we didn't i didn't know what you were doing you know just creating content these guys are taking the piss but um but uh but now like half of you are famous i keep seeing you everywhere like james alcott and rory and all these other guys have done tremendously well and you've made your talents pay for you which is great there was tons of money available i came to one of you recently and you said speak to my agent i went i can't believe it it's all gone full circle i wonder who that is i think that was i think Yeah, no, I don't think I've ever needed one.

4:32But yeah, a couple of the sort of Ball Street alumni have done incredibly well for themselves. It's good to see. It's really good to see. I love it. Yeah, absolutely. And do you know one of my favourite things, Jim, was asking you questions about your time as a football agent and just what that world was like. And I was just thinking, obviously, you know, that Spurs have been in a bit of a desperate situation this season. Could you, just off the bat, do you think there were conversations, what kind of conversations were players having with their agents? Would you imagine if you had to guess? Now?

5:00Well, I mean, as we record, we're playing Chelsea tonight, but the likelihood of us getting relegated is less significant than it was a week ago. But if it looked likely or it was a possibility that it was on the cards, what type of conversations were players having? Well, I would imagine the only thing that's stopping any players... Well, okay, let's go back a couple of weeks. Yep. every player in that squad will be on their phone to their agents if this club go down what's the plan what's the contingency get me out of it who are we speaking to you know what I mean that would have been absolutely rife throughout the squad last month so right even when they're supposed to be pulling together for well outwardly facing you know this is the conversation outwardly facing of course yeah you know they get interviewed and you know if they were to be arsed if you were to go down next season you know Of course, they can tow the party line.

5:58No, my future's with Tottenham Hotspur, all the rest of it. But absolutely, they would be on the phone call 15 minutes later or 15 minutes previous to that interview saying, what's happening? What's the latest? Anyone come in for me? A million percent. The only thing now, to caveat that slightly a little bit, is whether the new managers come in and restored a bit of belief in those players and the fact that obviously Tottenham have kind of improved their situation. The desperation might not be as peak as it was a month ago. That's for sure. So Deserby might have come in and, you know, the majority of the players are probably thinking we're going to stay up here.

6:36Okay, let's stay and honour the contract. But I would imagine, you know, one player who I think, you know, when you and I were speaking back in the day, I used to kind of teach you about Harry Kane. Yeah. And I was proved right on that. I think your big Mickey van der Ven, you know, obviously a month ago when the Tudor stuff was going on, like his agent is on the phone to the biggest clubs in Europe. Who's going to take him? Who's going to take him? I would imagine that's still the case. And I know that you won the European trophy last year, but you still finished in a really bad spot in the league.

7:09You're finishing in a really bad spot in the league this season. Mickey van der Ven is probably, I'm too good for this club, you know. and he would be on the phone to his agent, what's happening? And I think even De Zerbi coming in, he's probably going to be, he wants to be playing Champions League, right? Like all these players. Like I've said to you before, Flav, you know, I don't know if you remember what I always used to say to you. Like when I was an agent, unfortunately, I had to kind of start at the bottom and it was, you know, a lot of non-league players. Non-league players want to go and play in League 2.

7:39The League 2 players want to go and play in League 1. The League 1 players want to play in the Championship and the Championships want to play in the Premier. Now, once you're in the Premier, there's leagues to that. You know, if you're playing at Sunderland and you've had a really good season, there's a good chance those players at Sunderland are, any of the top six players come in for me. And if you're at the top, you know, back in the day it was Man United when you and I used to speak, those top players at Man United would be, any chance of Real Madrid come in for me. Players just inherently want more.

8:07So I would imagine there's a lot of players in that Tottenham squad who feel they probably belong in the Champions League or certainly not the Champions League, Europa League. They're obviously not going to get that with you guys next season. Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're going to be a force next year. Don't you worry about that, Jim. I'm talking about playing next season now. You've got to remember, football stories are very short. They're very short. They don't look two seasons down the line. They look at next season. Well, maybe don't sign the contract then. Maybe don't sign a five-year deal on 200 grand a week if you don't want to stay.

8:37Now, who are you talking to? Are you talking to the agent or are you talking to the player? I'm talking to anyone who will listen. Get up a bit. Well, that's the question. It's like, you have a five-year deal. I mean, is the idea of honouring a contract in football just ridiculous in a practical sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's so difficult, isn't it? Obviously, every player is different. And some players will be thinking, God, I could get shipped out here. And they'd love to honour the contract. But the players that start to do really well, they want that bigger contract because there's always a bigger contract, mate.

9:19There's always a bigger contract, you know. And, you know, certainly if they've signed a five-year contract and they're two years into it and they're, you know, either the best defender in the team or, you know, they're getting a load of assists, they're going to be on the agent. Okay, well, what's happening? Are we getting a new improved contract then? Are we getting a new deal? You know what I mean? So, again, if you think in modern history, players have actually honoured those contracts. I can't really think of many, you know? Yeah, I mean, the last time we properly spoke, I don't think Kerry Kane had left the club then.

9:54And he was in the middle of this. What did you think of the deal that he's... The story goes that his brother was representing him in a conversation about a renewal of a contract with Daniel Levy. and he signed a six-year deal with no break clauses in it and performance-related increases in wages and whatnot, as you'd expect. But as you remember, you probably remember, Harry Kane was stuck with Spurs. Three years into that six-year deal, he tried to get out. Daniel Levy wouldn't allow him to, and he ended up staying at another two before moving to Bayern Munich. Is it important that players don't hire their brothers to negotiate contracts with them?

10:31You can go back even further. Remember Nicholas and Elka did it and he hired his brothers. Yeah. I can't remember. I can't remember if that went well or not. Probably not. Yeah. No, I mean, I can't remember the intricacies of that deal, but I do remember thinking, God, Harry's really screwed up here or his brother's really screwed up here. So, I mean, just circling back to when you and I were talking, I think you probably matured now as a fan and a little bit more cynical. As you get older, you get more cynical, right? And I think when I was speaking to you, I don't think you could fathom what I was actually saying.

11:07I think you thought I was kind of sort of rage baiting. I thought you were trying to wind me up, yeah. Yeah, like an early Jason Cundy or his property Rory. No, and that wasn't the case. You know, I remember kind of saying, look, if Harry could get a better offer, he would go. And I think, you know, with your Tottenham, with your fan spectacles on, and let's be honest, most fans who aren't sort of as intricately linked to the industry that you and I are, they have their blinkers on and they want to believe that their superstars are absolutely, you know, loyal to the club to the end. Yeah, you want them to be in love with the club that you're in love with.

11:52That's ridiculous, isn't it? Which is never, ever going to happen. You know, I say never, ever, but very, very rarely. I mean, you look over the road and you probably won't like me mentioning it, but, you know, look at Arsenal. I mean, Saka is probably a good example. He's a product of the Arsenal youth team. He probably does love the club. And Max Dowman's another one. But, you know, if a Real Madrid or a club that was PSG were kind of winning week in, week out, and they could quadruple their contract, there's a good chance they'd go, you know. And that's just life. That's just how footballers operate.

12:31Jim, do you think we were hamstrung by Daniel... How much do you think we were hamstrung by Daniel Levy's unwillingness to match the wages that our big clubs are? You know, they're rivals, if you like, in the big six, if we're even a part of it anymore. Like, players must know that Spurs aren't going to pay the wages of Manchester City, Chelsea and Arsenal. So would that be a stumbling block of even making contact with the players? our agents are in the way to say we're not even going to talk to you Tottenham because we know we can get at least 30 % more at Chelsea 30 % more at Arsenal are we starting from a disadvantaged position?

13:08Yeah, you're definitely starting from a disadvantaged position absolutely, 100 % because if I'm the agent ultimately I want to make as much money for my client and the reason I want to make as much money for my client is obviously because they make me the most possible commission So if there's three clubs in for a player who I represent, and I know Tottenham's one of them, unless Tottenham are competing with a West Ham and a Sunderland, for example, then really, yeah, why am I going to entertain that? I'm going to speak to Man City, so I'm going to speak to Arsenal. So you might not get across the first conversation.

13:47you know now having said that they're obviously going to elicit an offer from you and they'll see what that offer is but you know if they've got Man City and Arsenal at the table then it's not going to end well for you guys it's almost like a benchmark this is the lowest you're going to get yeah I mean the one thing I say is obviously you know you go to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and it's incredible it's It's the second best stadium I've ever been to. It's just from number one. And the LA won in LA, which is kind of subterranean. Really? Yeah, unbelievable. So there is lots that Tottenham offer.

14:30You know, the training facilities haven't been in a long while, but meant to be second to none. And while that's all important, let's be honest, what it all comes down to is what can the club offer my player financially? Because that's ultimately what it's going to take to get my player there. I was doing a podcast this week and was talking to a Palace fan and we were talking about players and how they represent their club. And I was listening to him talk about his players and I was thinking, like, mate, I think he thinks that some of these Palace players love playing for them. And I've come to the position now as I'm much more learned in the world that don't fall in love with any of these players.

15:09Like, I'm so much more cynical than I was. Yeah. Because I've seen it play out. And I don't just mean about, I don't just mean something as light as, you know, I want you to stay for as long as, you know, play out your entire career, your best years with Spurs. I'm just meaning that these human beings don't feel anything like we feel for our football club. And why would they? How could they? We expect van der Ven to love Tottenham and die for the shirt and whatever it does. He might love Tottenham in that moment because it elevates his career, but when he's busting the gut, it's about preserving his reputation, I think.

15:46Preserving his reputation and making as much money in what is still a very true career. Now, look, when people say that, it's not as if after this job, they're going to have to go and get a job at Waitrose. We understand that, but they're trying to create generational wealth and they're trying to maximise as much money as possible. And why wouldn't they? But, you know, going back to the point you're making, you know, you only have to, you don't even have to look at modern football. You go back a few years and look at Wayne Rooney. Now, Wayne Rooney was never going to stay at Everton, even though he was an Everton fan, right?

16:19But, okay, extrapolate that. And then you have someone like Stevie Gerrard, right? You know, Stevie Gerrard was born bread scout, a Liverpool fan, won practically everything with Liverpool, right? And I don't know how it didn't happen, but I think he has spoke about it quite a lot. But him and his agent were entertaining offers, right? And they're not doing that because they support Real Madrid. They're going there. Or Chelsea, because that was where it was. It was going to go to Chelsea, wasn't it? Yeah, Chelsea, right. And when Chelsea was sort of splashing the cash like it was going out of fashion.

16:49And they were winning and probably more, well, they were certainly winning more trophies than Liverpool at that time. So I think, yeah, I think trophy, that's to be fair, to give the players, I think they also aspire to win. have trophies in the cabinet at the end. And again, that's probably very pertinent to Harry Kane. I guess when you get to a point where you have more money than you can spend, it generally becomes about ambition if you're that kind of human being. Yeah. And again, let's be fair to Harry. That's probably what it came down to. I mean, if anyone or any player from recent times would have stayed with you guys, maybe it would have been Harry, but had you won stuff when he was there.

17:28you know but you came close obviously a couple of times and maybe that might have made the difference let's give him the benefit of the doubt he seems like a and all reports i have that harry's a really lovely guy yeah i don't apart from he doesn't need the money but i think his one may not have been about money may have been okay look i want to have i want to win something and i need to get some stuff in the in the cabinet i i don't i don't think anybody truly blames harry came for especially because he would have i'm not sure we would have been as bad as we were if he would have stayed but he gave a lot to the club and if you're being sensible about it the fact that he moved to Bayern Munich as opposed to Manchester United which he could have done in the Premier League shows that um I think he still had us to some degree in in mind when making that decision because he could have gone anywhere and we've seen he's the best probably the best number nine in the world um what is it that is there things about footballers that perhaps fans don't understand like because we've talked we always talk about them in a kind of cynical way that they're out for themselves that they want to get you know they want to get the most amount of money as possible and often like especially when agents are in are sort of connected into that conversation the word greed comes across but is it like are they are they aware that this is a short career that they have to take every opportunity that in order to preserve their long-term financial well-being and that of their kids and maybe even their kids after that that they've got to put themselves forward and actually it doesn't it isn't necessarily about greed it's more about fear of not taking advantage of the opportunity they have well imagine buying your kid a toy only to find the batteries aren't included or buying furniture but missing the tools to build it frustrating right now imagine the exact same feeling but you're paying way more that is what buying business software usually feels like fragmented disconnected and incredibly expensive Odoo completely changes that.

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20:08Stronger is right around the corner. Come see the new look for yourself at 1163 East Ogden Avenue and join today for just$1 down. Planet Fitness. We're all strong on this planet. Let me answer that in a different way. So obviously one of my long-term clients who you're aware of is Jimmy, Jimmy Bullard. Are you still with him? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, still with Jim and still look after Jim. Next, you want to shoot with him today, funnily enough. But anyway, so by the by. But Jimmy, while he was obviously never at the biggest clubs in the world, he gave me massive insight into what it's like to be a professional footballer because let's be honest, most of us in and around this business of failed footballers, I mean, I'm certainly one of them.

20:57And God, I look back and think I'm so glad I didn't make it because A, I wouldn't have earned enough. Even if I made it, it would have been the very, very lower levels. Wouldn't have had enough money. And B, I don't think I was ruthless enough because from what Jimmy tells me about himself and about all the stories I've heard, you have to it's all about self-promotion whether it's in the dressing room you have to be heard you have to put yourself first you have to kind of put on this fake it's all you know like bravado you know to survive in these dressing rooms and I think that's the same in their careers they kind of even though they might not be like that and they might have nice parents and all the rest of it if you if you do not pipe up if you do not speak up the clubs will take advantage of that And it kind of reminds me of some of the stuff I hear from Gary Neville, you know, and the old United boys and how Fergie pretty much pulled their pants down because they didn't have it.

21:53I think Gary never had an agent or something like that, and they got their pants pulled down right or certainly didn't get their true value, I think is kind of the rhetoric that comes out from those days. So I think even though some of the players are inherently and intrinsically good people, the business, the industry means you have to make out you're the best. You have to take what's yours. And those who aren't comfortable doing that are certainly going to want to point an agent as soon as possible because that person can be that person going in saying, you know, Gary Neville was the best right back in the world.

22:35He's done this before. He's done that. Gary Neville might not be. It doesn't strike me as someone who seems backwards and coming forwards. But you understand the point I'm making. Some of these quieter lads, they need to have that aggressive agent. someone like Jimmy, Jimmy, I wasn't Jimmy's football agent. He had another one, but he went in with his dad, who was like an East End landlord. And imagine negotiating one of them. Didn't he do well with a Hull contract? Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, I think Jimmy is agent and the dad went up to sign the contract at Hull. And this is out there, this is a podcast.

23:13So I'm not letting any industry secrets out here. And basically the contract they kind of thought they were going into sign came in. And I don't know the exact figure, but the exact figure put down was a lot more than what had been verbally offered and what they'd come up to sign. And Timmy was about to say something. I think the old man gave him a massive kick under the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep yourself to yourself, son. I think he said it was another zero in the end. I think it was. No, it wasn't that. I think it was like a 52 grand contract. And I think, I don't know. I think they'd agreed around 40 or something like that.

23:47It wasn't six figures. But yeah, but yeah. So yeah. So I think kind of intrinsically the people, they're not, not, not all the players are assholes. Do you know what I mean? That's just, just how can they be? I mean, they're talented. They're extremely well paid, but if they can get paid more and if they can hire an agent to, to get them as much more and be as aggressive as possible for them, then absolutely. You've got to have that in this. You just have to, because people like Levy will just eat you for breakfast. Absolutely eat you for breakfast. Yeah. They're scapegoated agents, aren't they?

24:25They're scapegoated. And no doubt they probably have a role to play in all this, but the clubs would take advantage of, of young players or players that didn't have agents who understand the workings of a business deal and a contract. because these are kids that don't have that. They're young kids typically who all they want to do is play football, perhaps don't have an education. You need someone to represent them fairly in that room, right? Absolutely. And that's what's hardly ever heard. Whenever you're kind of hearing about agencies, invariably they've got their snouts in the trough. And yeah, of course, as I said to you before we start recording, where there's money, there's going to be people who look to take advantage of that.

25:08And that can have a criminal element as well, which we can maybe touch on in a minute. But, yeah, I mean, again, you're absolutely right. Invariably, the best players in school are probably getting the worst grades because their talents and their times are being pursued, pursuing their talent. So, absolutely. How can you seriously expect to put someone like that in a room with Simon Jordan or a Daniel Levy or, you know, it's just a total mismatch. and the other side of the ages as well you know again certainly when I was doing it when the player gets released I mean that's the one thing that kind of irks me about Gary I never had an agent why did I need one but if you release Gary if Gary was released or just didn't make the grade who was going to help him find a club alright Neville Neville could have done because I think it was a berry at the time but you get the point I'm making you know my job is to sort of support them when it doesn't go so well or my old job was an agent So what would you then have to try and be in your best interests and the players' best interests to be essentially for you to try and find a new club?

26:11What does that entail? Is that calling up? Obviously, the dream then from the agent's point of view, not the dream, but the backup plan, the contingency plan is, okay, you're going to have to go down to come back up. And obviously, there's a lot of players who've successfully achieved that, you know, gone back down the league and then successfully bounced back. and certainly again back in the day, there's a lot of players who certainly used to come through lower leagues and probably Jamie Vardy's probably the best one of recent years and obviously the Ian Wrights, the Stuart Pearces. Back in the day, there was lots of them.

26:45So from my point of view, when I was doing it, it wasn't the end of the road if they were released. My job is then to find them an opportunity where they can showcase the obvious talent they've got. But that doesn't often end well. I mean, I had a couple of lads at Arsenal back in the day you know and they were obviously trained at London Colney and all the facilities and everything and then I remember one lad he came out and we we got him a trial and he ended up at Rochdale but obviously you know training at Rochdale and then going to do it in Rochdale isn't quite the same as having a glorious youth youth career at Arsenal and often it doesn't work out so that can be expensive in terms of time resource and all the rest of it and it doesn't always work out but that's obviously the other side of the job that the agent's there to do try and find them other opportunities to to showcase any talent they have got was you um jim was you sort of was you looking for that the right mentality in the players because if you're dealing in that world where you've got i remember the names of these super agents now but um he's the pina zavari or something to harvey yeah so he's obviously operating with the world's biggest stars but when you were operating i guess you were having to find opportunity look for good players that maybe didn't have representation and then talk to them and figure out whether they had a good personality or we to be honest i was just looking for any player that could make me money who's your first player how did you find him my first well this i will claim full credit and it's actually helped me um in later life um but my first player was a player called kevin betsy rings a bell kevin betsy now i can't even remember what bloody club he played for but i've got a better story all right on how i reached out to them because the there was really the traditional way was you get introduced by a player but i didn't have a player who could make any introductions to me to me so i was kind of starting from ground zero really so a lot of the time you go to resi games um so i used to spend a lot of time at stevenage football club where Tottenham used to play on Monday nights, which kind of leads me on to another story.

28:56Remind me to come back to that story about criminal element because it goes back to that. But then, again, what you're kind of doing there is you're waiting for the players to come out and, you know, back in the day, it was give them a card. You know, now it probably goes, here's my Instagram, follow me on Insta. But here's my card. This is who we are. But you're there till 11 o 'clock at night because the players come, you know shower and take their time and you know they're in no hurry come out with the wash bags and here's a card and yeah you know complete one in 15 you might get a meeting so i was like okay i need to get a bit creative with this so i used to spend days and days and days going through the bbc sport website which would give me all the squad and all the squad names now before facebook there was a site called friends reunited and only some of your listeners remember this well i do i remember it yeah so friends reunited so I would then find someone like Kevin Bexley like anyone called like John Smith you know you're kind of screwed but anyone who kind of had a name that stood out like Kevin Bexley I'd look on friends reunited and it would then you could connect with him if you paid your five pound membership for the year and you could send him an email so I did that And then it worked with a player called Ashley Williams.