Why the Smartest Brands Are Thinking Like Hospitality Companies in 2025

0:28Podcast nation, how are you? and four, about how VCR and Fly Fish and how it's going and blah, blah, blah. I just did it because I wanted to fulfill them, but I also wanted to say hi and also say it would mean a lot to me if you left a review on Spotify or Apple. We're focused on that more and it would mean a lot to me. And on some real talk, if you really are in the hospitality industry, curious about it, or operations, small business world, this podcast is about to blow you away. Enjoy. See you soon. Ladies and gentlemen, Gary V, David Rodolitz, thanks for having me in your office in new york really appreciate it yeah thanks for visiting we're excited so actually while i was preparing for this interview i was doing a bit of linkedin stalking and i saw that david went to fashion school in paris wrong david are you sure i'm pretty positive okay well that's awesome business school university of maryland that's the same as fashion yeah it's the same as fashion i'm not one in the same okay okay but the way you dress made I never think that.

1:28So that was a good follow up. Yeah, not in like the fashion marketing. I love it. Fly Fish Club, it's very fashion scene, WWD. I think it tracks, it's just not me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Fly Fish Club, how has the story of the business turned out differently from when you launched it? I mean, I'll jump - Because you guys launched with NFTs. Yeah, I mean, I think probably a lot less change than I even think the form of that question. Meaning, we are still a restaurant that if somebody is educated enough on NFTs, they can go out and buy an NFT and become a member of the club. You know, I think what probably is different is if you told me on February 10th, 2025, would the brand of NFTs have gone through what they've had the last three years?

2:16That was surprising. I don't think I anticipated the last administration to be so anti-crypto. I also didn't anticipate, as the guy who brought like the NFT and crypto energy to our restaurant group, because the group existed before the NFT restaurant, I don't think that the highs were gonna get that high. I grew up in early internet 1.0, so I saw pets.com and all those stocks that went to zero.

2:48It's funny, there was a point where I started I started making videos saying that 99 % of NFTs were going to zero because I started to see the same behaviors that I saw in internet 1.0 where people were speculating and things of that nature. So I don't think that I anticipated the ups and downs and now the rebirth, right? Like now crypto and NFTs are heading up. So it's been a much more aggressive roller coaster than the day we announced like, hey, do this. Honestly, other than that, I'm just very grateful that David, Josh, our entire team, Connor, Tony, I would say they've executed on my personal, I'll let David speak for himself, they've executed on my hopes and dreams, which was being in an NFT restaurant is like having a website.

3:44When I was growing up, you're too young for this, when I was growing up, when you had a website, that was like another thing. And I kept saying, no, no, no, my dad still has a liquor store, but we have a website. It was such new technology that people would name it something different. Similar to like when you were a kid, like not everyone had a social media account. And if you had one, that was like a thing. Oh, you have a, now no eighth grader doesn't think people are not going to have. And so NFTs are going to be part of society. We were always building and trying to build and are now in the process of building one of the most meaningful private clubs in New York City.

4:24That could have failed miserably with or without an NFT. And so it's turned out, actually I'm gonna be very transparent in this podcast, I think the guys and gals on that team have done a better job than I had hoped. Says that every day to me. You don't have the confidence in it. I mean, I didn't have the confidence. Of course I had the confidence, I put my money where my mouth is with you. The decor came out better than I dreamed in my head with who knows what I was thinking. The food I knew we were gonna crush on. But you can't, I mean, there's the greatest restaurateurs of all time can't, cannot predict 100 % success every time they open something new.

5:04You know this. Like there's just too many variants. Yeah, I think just for me, a little bit of a full circle moment. and where Gary was going with this is that when we came out with it, it was always a culinary driven members club. It was always a members club that was focused on food in New York City with different experiences and a good environment and a nice ambiance. We did exactly that. When we came out with it, it was around this time that Gary got very excited with blockchain, NFTs and what that could do. And VCR Group, a part of the filters of our company, was to leverage technology, leverage media, and do things in a little bit more of an innovative way.

5:41The timing was great. He got very excited. I learned quick. And we started as a blockchain members club, meaning the only way to play was you had to buy an NFT and that created your ability to own your membership. Since then, we still have that. We also now have traditional memberships which mimic the typical framework that most people know of members clubs. And we have both going on under one roof. But the core is still the core. members club, food first, hospitality first, treat people well, and it's, I think as Gary was saying, it's been exciting, it's been what we wanted, or that. Yeah. And as a group, if I may, it was really fun to go through the journey because we knew we had to find a good spot for it.

6:28So that had its own elements. Don't forget it was right after COVID, there was a lot going on with real estate. During that time, what was also not potentially part of the roadmap, we always knew we would have multiple brands. I'm sure, again I'm gonna speak for myself, at the time, you know, this venture of Fly Fish Club is such a big venture out the gate for a new restaurant group. If you look at all the places that are popping up in New York, they're all people that have had their groups around much longer. Right, that's true. So, you know, what also happened on this journey that was slightly different was we crushed the Little Maven concept, which I think I would've thought would've been after Fly Fish, not before.

7:15So, you know, Little Maven popped, that opportunity popped up as Fly Fish was probably, it was perfect. Like, Maven came right when we could do it and not screw up Fly Fish. I feel if it came four months earlier or even two months later, we would've not done that. to me, that's also been interesting because we got to execute that. And for me, it feels very, I feel very full as a restaurateur to have both neighborhood brands and to have destination. People fly from around the country to go to Fly Fish Club. Especially, Eto too. And Eto. More specifically. And meanwhile, we've crushed Maven as a neighborhood restaurant in an actual box that has struggled to have a winner in it, which I take enormous amount of pride in, which I think is really cool if you're a nerd about actually building a group.

8:18If you're capable of winning in spaces that have historically not won with good operators in them, you've got something brewing. Totally, yeah, I think restaurants are a huge part of placemaking and just, yeah, and creating a really great environment. But I wanna go back to the founding story. so vcr group the idea it's it's kind of new it's 2020 2021 right okay so what tell me the founding story of that yeah i mean it's pretty simple gary and i have been close for a long time in 2014 he invested in my previous group so we had a little bit of like you know business activity our social words worlds are very connected he bought my best friend's company in 2017 we're all spending more time together and over covid gary the benefit to me of covid was that this guy never has any time and we found ourselves spending more time together drinking bottles of wine in his apartment talking about kind of a a 2.0 version of the hospitality industry on the on the back side of covid and we got excited about that idea when gary commits to something he commits he said he was in.

9:26And then kind of at the last moment, there's also a great celebrity chef named Josh Capon. Right. And brought him into the fold. We live near each other. We were talking about doing a lot of business together. And that was how VCR started. Vaynerchuk, Capon, Radalitz. It's simply our initials. And it was to create a modern hospitality company rooted in humility, treat people really well, do projects we're passionate about, have a lot of fun together. and myself, Josh, we came from previous groups and just wanted to do things in a new way and Gary was the third part to it but he had hospitality in his blood through all the other ventures he's done and kind of powered me up and here we are.

10:11Yeah, I think to add color to that, what David was saying earlier, I was definitely interested in supporting him in starting his own group and wanted to be a meaningful investor. I have plenty of things that are on my plate. When Josh became an addition, cause David and Josh lived in the same general area in New Jersey and got to spend more time together. Cause obviously you guys knew each other. but during that time you guys got closer. A lot, a lot closer. They got a lot closer and when he got involved and then in general I feel like COVID by slowing me down allowed me to realize how much more creativity and doing, I actually wanted to do more stuff which would seem counterintuitive, but what was happening behind the scenes was my infrastructure of my business world was getting much bigger.

11:10I was grooming more talent, I could rely on people. Fly Fish Club, Hannah Park, and Nick Dio, and Tyler Schmidt. I mean, there's other people that have added the elements of their energy to where we are today. Those were things I didn't have in prior years. So I felt like I had broader shoulders. And so what ended up really happening was, you know, we talked about a lot of different stuff. There was a lot of conversations. There were so many different versions. I mean, to, cause I know this. Yeah, I was just about to say, literally from QSR, like low end QSR, all the way to where we are now, to CPG, I mean we were talking real entrepreneur stuff.

11:55Ghost kitchens. We were talking a lot. It was very fun, very creative, and what I didn't anticipate, which I'm so happy happened, was even through all those discussions, I still thought I would be more behind the scenes investor and I'm much more out in front on the VCR group as a partner than I anticipated and that speaks to not only how I believed in Josh but the K-Pond variable was interesting because I knew both of them separately and I thought they would be a really great team and I felt like I could contribute a little bit more than just cash and the occasional phone call and so here we are and so since you guys have started you've opened seven eight we have about seven concepts intellectual properties we have ito in new york which is a joint venture with masa ito and kevin kim generally vcr group will predominantly do the culinary in all of our projects this was a opportunistic masa and i were very close he was operating in Miami he pre-built Ito but it wasn't finished it was put on a shelf and it was just an interesting opportunity to kind of come in as a partner yeah they run the culinary they run the business we're more you know back office and and and growth and support where they need help so outside of ito we generally run the culinary in all of our projects because we're operators they run the culinary there and the culture as well so Ito little maven fly fish club is our new york footprint we have a pop-up at the u.s open tennis tournament called fly fish which is a casual seafood concept which ironically was a part of the name uh game for fly fish club which happened a little bit later and then in las vegas we have our second ito location on the top of the fountain blue hotel right um we have cape ponds burgers first location at the Fountain Blue Hotel.

14:04And then we have a sister concept to Ito called Bar Ito, which is a hand roll concept. Same quality fish as Ito, packaged more accessibly. We believe there's a lot of growth and scalability in both that and Cape Pond's Burgers. And then later on this year in 2025, we'll be opening up Cape Pond's Chop House with Simon Properties, one of the largest streets in the country, and a second Cape Pond's Burgers location in the next 16 to 18 months. Okay, so you guys are really busy. We're busy. I love that you guys came up with VCR Group during COVID because that was when everyone was terrified of hospitality.

14:42Yeah. Because it completely, I think it was probably one of the most impacted, if not the most impacted, retail business during that time. But it's also the time to think about how you can take risks and how you can innovate. And so - There was no version of us staying in our homes forever than I thought would be true. And I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think it's not lost on anyone that's really looking at finances and economics and business. Like a lot of the times to double down on offense is when everyone's on defense. Yeah, totally. People were gonna be longing to get back together with people.

15:15I mean, it wasn't gonna go out of vogue. Yeah, totally. But that being said, real talk, like Manhattan, you know, the food scene has changed forever. I mean, the suburb action, I would say that the Monday, Friday thing is real. Yeah, it's consolidated to one day of business. Yeah, it's forever changed. So like some of the people that, to the credit of the people that were concerned about what behaviors were getting locked in and what was gonna change in COVID, things changed. And like, but what's great about being an entrepreneur or an operator is you've got to adjust to the reality of what you're dealing with.

15:51And I think, you know, for anybody who's listening that is in the business, I have so much respect for them. Long hours, low margins. Like you have to be in this industry, you have to really love it. Yeah, totally. There's so many other ways to make money. 100%. And I'm gonna get back to that. But I wanted to know, in the past few years, opening all these restaurants, what are some mistakes that you've learned? God. I would, I'd call it more of a painful reality than mistakes. because our journey, honestly, things are going well, and we've got a strong team, and we work really hard, so I feel good about what we're doing.

16:32I would say some painful realities along the way. We started this new group. Honestly, we're very top-heavy. I mean, it was a little bit scary. We came from different groups. We also have another partner named Connor Hanlon that came from another top group, so a lot of ammunition formed together. we had a lot of pressure on ourselves obviously Gary's like all right what are we all doing like you know there's a lot of big names here and it takes time to build a pipeline and to like get projects you gotta do the leases you got to do construction you got to come up with concepts you got to create you know the demand for people to want to be there there's a lot of layers to opening up a restaurant concept so a painful reality was that we had nothing we're working behind the scenes feverishly every single day and then all of a sudden we opened up five properties in 11 months time and gary's like this is you know like respectfully making sure that we were okay but there was a lot going on certain projects got accelerated certain projects slowed down and we opened up three projects at the fountain blue and we opened up little maven all within a three-week period and then you know really then went into fly fish development taking over the space from when the contractor had it ready for us and then moving into pre-opening.

17:54So it was just, it was a lot trying to build teams, build infrastructure while trying to get the culture right with a lot of new people that there really was no culture besides what we wanted the culture to be. It was a religion in our mind. Yeah. And then I think, you know, Gary alluded to this, but I'm super proud of launching Flyfish as the blockchain element that it was. And then there was, you know, iterating the concept or making another ability for people to experience it. Just as, you know, the world around us was changing a little bit and then making sure that enough people could enjoy the experiences we were creating.

18:33We just felt like we needed a couple parallel paths for people to get entry to it. So just like coming up with that, all of the thought that went behind it, the different marketing comms, the journey, the tech stack, it was, and we had a very loyal community. and Gary and I, specifically Gary and I, because we were on the front of it, knew what we were doing and felt very comfortable with what we were doing because it was for our community, but it didn't change that there was a lot of hair to it. It was a tricky time and we had to be very thoughtful and caring about kind of bringing people through that journey with us.

19:11I would say also, it was funny, you could see in the first couple seconds of how David's answering it, And because we're young, and because it's going well, it's a very young company and we're off to a good start. I mean, we could be doing this interview, teaching people how to waste tens of millions of dollars in a launch and be out of business. I said to them all the time, he knows this, like Fly Fish Club was a big swing. Yeah, huge. And again, unlike the great people at major food groups or Scott, we literally were a brand new group opening up a massive spot. How much was the initial investment total for Fly Fish?

19:52Like how much did you guys? I mean, eight figures plus. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was massive. Yeah, massive. Like, and things like that, if they don't go, it's dead fast. Especially New York. I mean, there's an iconic club in Midtown from like one of the best groups in the world and this was one that wasn't gonna hit. Like, I just thought every night. And what was tough for me is I'm used to driving the car. Most of my business, I am the actual core operator. David is the core operator of VCR Group. So, I think to answer the question, if I'm just jumping on it, it's what we don't see right now.

20:31We don't have the obvious big, so much has gone well. There's micro learnings left and right. Like, measure twice, cut once. There's a million little things that I think the audience here knows. We don't have the big one yet. I mean, the one that's obvious to me, and it was your reaction on wow, is like, you know, like, these are all young brands and now we're gonna open up Cape On Steakhouse too. Like, they know, like, what I bring up in our meetings is like, you know, and you saw right before we started here, you know, please don't share this part, like we're talking about another thing right before.

21:04Like, I'm like, you know, I think. I'm not gonna stop. But I think what happens, and I'm also one that doesn't stop, but I can afford, and I have had many losses. When you don't stop, you don't bat a thousand. When you're a young company, if you miss two in a row, it could put substantial financial strain in a very low margin business. So I love it. It sounds aggressive. I actually think it's less aggressive than the contrary. I think the growth is what allows us to get talented people around us. I think the growth, the opportunities allow us to have more diversification. I think it allows us to actually create more of a group.

21:47It allows us to create more demand. It allows us to keep the community engaged because we become more of a lifestyle concierge brand and we're helping them at our other products. All day long, we're taking our people from one restaurant to another, to Las Vegas. We're setting up their rooms. There actually is demand creation happening here, and it's becoming loyal. The thing you just did in Miami? 100%. So what he's alluding to is a big thing that we're thinking about at Fly Fish Club. And obviously, a lot keeps going back to that, A, because it's relevant. It's a massive project for the size of our small company, and we've got a lot of excitement for hopefully to do more in the future.

22:30what we want to do with our members club is create an enormous amount of value for our members for every time they think that this is it we're going to surprise and delight and come over the top and give them something that they never expected so what gary was just kind of nodding to um is our members can go to this gorgeous place in miami called harbor club okay and they could get to enjoy another members club okay for no additional you know cost or compensation it's good perk and it's a great perk it's an additional benefit we don't know if that will be around for years or it's right now it's not a promise when you buy the membership from us it's not like it's a two for one deal but it's a hey we respect what this guy james is doing the product is fantastic we have a lot of our community that's down there our seasons are kind of um slotting perfectly that our peak time is not their peak time and vice versa.

23:25So we're like, we have a lot of well-traveled people. They're going down to Miami. Let's give them more value. Let's make them more happy. And now they could go there and go to Harbor Club and enjoy a beautiful experience that we trust James and their team will operate on because that's most important for our reputation. And the fly fish community and people that are around us just get more and more things that they weren't promised or expected and our community can expect more of those things to continue to happen. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean, Reciprocal Cobs is like, it's a perk that I think a lot of brands don't fully leverage or explore.

24:04And for people in New York, like everyone's spending 183 days out of the year in Miami or more, if you know what I mean. Probably your Our target members are definitely at least probably on that train. Or to your point, if they're not actually living in Miami and taxing, they're definitely flying to San Francisco, Vegas, LA, London, Miami. Like that is, you know, once you start getting into certain financial thresholds, your behaviors are different. Right. You don't eat at home 300 days a year. Totally. Or 350 days a year. I also think for some reason, and hopefully we're a part of changing it, it's been like the member club life has been very kind of fragmented and competitive and why can't it be more collaborative and that's how we're approaching it okay there's great people doing great things everybody offers something different okay you know as gary was saying before there's awesome members clubs in new york and we go there and we know the other owners and they're fantastic and we're just kind of focused on what we're doing okay and why can't you help one another and be more collaborative so that that was a little bit behind the carver club okay i want to dig in to that bit so fly fish club has been open for about six months now right it's been five months yeah five six months um what have you learned about the members club business because something that i am evangelizing on my platform is i really do believe that members clubs are the next institutionalizing hospitality asset class in the same way hotels.

25:32Yes. And by the way, you know this because you're smart enough to know that's real life in London. Like it's real. Yeah. Like I always say I'm very hot right now on live social shopping like the QVC of vacation and everyone's like but Gary, what about and I'm like guys, gals, this has been happening in China for fucking seven years. Right, exactly. Like I'm not guessing here. If this class had never existed in the history of the world it'd be like a fun debate. But humans are humans. Yes, there's differences in London and New York. But like, anyone to, like, listen, we hope we're around for a very, very long time.

26:07But if God forbid we weren't, members clubs in New York are now going to be around, quote unquote, in perpetuity. Maybe when VR comes and we live in pods, in warm weather places, but I could not agree with you more. Now, how much can a market absorb? Like how many can there be here with rents? with like once rents got high, clubs changed. And you know, in the 70s and 80s, it didn't matter how much money you had, you couldn't get into every club. Right, right, right. If you have enough money in New York right now, you can get absolutely everywhere and be winning everywhere. So things change. I don't know if it's 20 meaningful clubs in Manhattan.

26:49I don't know if it's seven. I, myself, and many of my brightest friends, I think a lot of people are thinking about them from a neighborhood framework, right? Like if you live in the Upper East Side. Yeah, there's Maxime's or will be Maxime's. You know, I think there's some truth to that. I think the cooler the, or, and or, the more you just like to be out and about. So like honestly, ironically, I'm homebody-ish, so I probably would be someone, if I wasn't in this business living my normal life, would probably go more regional than schlepping downtown, uptown, left, right, across the park. It's gonna be super fun to see what it looks like in seven years, but it will absolutely, to your point, be one of the classics in the game.

27:32Yeah, totally. I think what we're seeing right now is after COVID, some members clubs like SoHouse, for example, did still charge membership fees. And so a lot of restaurant brands were like, oh, look at those members clubs. They're still making some kind of revenue, even during this time when everything's closed. We should do that. They think of it as like recurring revenue, but it's just like, oh, it's a restaurant, let's slap on a membership fee and call it a day. I would also say, if I may, in business, from one man's humble point of view, when someone really goes for it and it works, it also has a huge impact.

28:12Scott and Zero Bond deserve outrageous historical credit because had that been a massive flop, I don't think people would have been rushing to get theirs popped up. Zero Bond's massive, but there'll be no confusion. Success, Scott, who he is as a dude, the best. That also will have its place in the history books of why it happened here, because SoHo, to your point, but that's different. That gets into co-working space. Hotels. Correct, it's just different. Zero Bond. That level of success, and everybody, but people are people, meaning when you see something works, you think about how big the addressable market is.

29:00And then Cipriani opens and it works. We are now open and it's working. ZZ is open and it works. There's actually like - Chez Margot, Crane Club, so many great ones. You know, there's so many. Actually, there's only a few that aren't working right now. I expect a lot more not to work. I expect more to come along and work and maybe hurt the ones that are working. It'll just become normal. Yeah, totally. I also think it's working because it's beneficial to everybody in the system if it's done well. So I think you brought up why is this accelerating right now and what's the value proposition to everybody.

29:37I think from the consumer standpoint and why join a members club, a lot of people are just more discerning and thoughtful around their experiences now. They want more. They want to go in. They want to get a certain table. They like a lot of different experiences. It's also efficient. You could in one night go to a restaurant, you could listen to a lot of music. We had a comedy night for the first time last week. We're gonna have a week of a monthly magician. I'm sorry to interrupt you. We also made a bet on a stage as a throwback. Those will become the variables. Our bet on our lounge, which is super sexy, but then also has a stage to do what David's talking about.

30:20That's a different variable than others. and I think everyone will start to come up with their points of differentiation. Like my wife and I wouldn't go out to a nightclub anymore. It's just not what we do. We have two kids, but you could go to Flybush Club or go to these other members of clubs. I feel like you would. I mean, I would. I know you're politically correct thing, but you definitely would. And like you wouldn't just specifically, your intent wouldn't be to go out clubbing on a night unless you're like away with friends on vacation or whatnot. Now you could go to dinner, then you could go downstairs, go to a lounge, have a cocktail, they'll have a beautiful bottle of wine, and you could get some of that enjoyment without committing to something that just like, is a little bit outside of your comfort zone.

30:58On the flip side, I'm sorry to interrupt, like some of the private clubs right now are some of the hottest club life energy in the city. Right? Yeah, it's true. Which is awesome. Like to me, like that's what's fun about this whole thing. It's actually similar to NFTs. Everyone's like, NFTs are dead. I'm like, no, no, no, certain NFTs are dead. Right, right. You know, VFriends sold a$15 ,000 NFT this morning. Like, I don't think people think that's happening. Yeah, I definitely didn't think that was happening. Right, so there you go. So, same thing will happen here. Like, there are many people right now opening private clubs.

31:34At Super Bowl, I had somebody come up to me, a famous athlete is gonna open one in Chicago. Their person was like, hey, can you speak to this? I was like, of course. The amount of private clubs that are about to be opened up in the next 48 months in New York is gonna be insane in New York and everywhere else. Most will fail just like restaurants, like wine stores, like websites, like apps, like people trying to become an influencer and like NFT projects. The macro is locked in and it will then require these things, right? Margot's got that. Actually, one of the most interesting things I think we did and I actually, for everyone who's listening, if you're thinking about opening a club, I'm gonna push you on this one.