Financial Times Former Editor-in-Chief: Lionel Barber – Journalism, Curiosity, Power, & Telling the Truth

0:00This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Score more with the college-branded Venmo Debit Card and earn up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Got paid back? With the Venmo Debit Card, you can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want, like game day snacks, gear, tickets, and more.

0:42The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Sign up now at Venmo.com slash college card. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. Select schools available. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at Venmo.me slash stashterms. max$100 cash back per month. Well, Lionel, Lionel Barber, thank you so much for being here on the Stadtgeist podcast. It's great to be on the Stadtgeist podcast. Thank you. I had the pleasure of hearing you speak at Brilliant Minds and approached you right after you rushed off the stage. And I wanted to learn more about your life, your story.

1:17I have been aware of your name for a long time. As the ex-editor-in-chief of the FT, an author, an explorer. You have your own book, The Gambling Man which has just come out in paperback in the UK which is a big deal and you are also reading the audiobook yourself so for people who like the way you speak on this podcast they can hear more It's the ultimate test It's the ultimate test Because Gambling Man is about a Japanese entrepreneur Masayoshi Son of SoftBank so the key is that I wasn't allowed to do my Japanese accent and you can probably understand why Around the world with your host, the Stardguy, we welcome you back to the Stardguy podcast, sharing stories of excellence with those in the know for those who just know.

2:06I'd love to start a conversation with your idea of journalism and what journalism means to you. You dedicated a massive part of your life to journalism and 15 years as the editor-in-chief of the FT. I'd love to know about the why. My father was a journalist. He came from a very modest background in Leeds in the north of England, and he left school when he was barely 15. So he was self-taught. He didn't go to college. And he always used to tell the three sons that journalism was the best possible job. But it's not a business. It's not a profession. It's a vocation. And what he meant by that is that it's something which is deeply serious.

3:00It's about finding the truth and reporting facts. Obviously, there's commentators and people offer opinions and there's all the excitement, which we'll talk about with the new journalism built around digital. But at its heart, it is about providing for an informed citizenry and a democracy. So I take it quite seriously. But of course, I've had a lot of fun as well. And would you say that the driver to become a journalist is fundamentally to be curious? Absolutely. Most important quality. I tell all people who think they want to be a journalist that the greatest quality you can have is to be curious and not to be cynical.

3:51Because if you've already made your mind up and you're not interested in exploring things or finding out things and then trying to organize them into a story or a column or informing people, then you're never going to be any good at all. so curiosity i think that applies to other parts of life by the way but particularly important for journalism has that always been part of your dna not always i think i've always wanted to express myself and i was obviously not obviously i mean i i kind of flirted a bit with uh theater I was the drum major in Wojciech's, in Bouchner's Wojciech. And I liked doing a little bit of play, but I wasn't really very good.

4:41And I thought, well, I'm not going to be a politician because I'm not flexible enough, shall we say. So I thought actually, and I hesitate about journalism because following one's father is always a bit of a problem. so I thought I'd never be as good as him but then I thought actually the only job that I've been offered is one job in journalism in Scotland and I think I really want to do it and that that's that's that's that's the job for me and when was that that was in 1978 I just finished my degree at Oxford in German and modern history. Wow. And I thought, you know, Scotland, never been there.

5:29I was from London, England, didn't travel that much in the family, apart from actually to Germany and France. And I thought, yeah, I'm going to do it. And it's going to be an adventure because if you've spent three years at Oxford, one year in Germany as a student, then going to Scotland felt something like new and very exciting. And what were you covering there? Well, the problem was that I didn't have anything to cover because I was just English in a sea of Scots. And I didn't have any specialist knowledge, so I didn't really know. But of course, if you're in journalism, you need to have a speciality.

6:05Well, clearly I couldn't be a reporter on German literature. So I thought about health, but I'm not a scientist, so I was useless at that. And then I went to, I'll always remember this, in 1980, I went to Glasgow and there was Mrs. Thatcher's intellectual guru who was a man called Sir Keith Joseph. And he was talking to a bunch of businessmen. And I remember him saying, why is this country? And you've got to remember, in the late 70s, 1980, Britain was a terrible place. I mean, we were seen as the sick man of Europe. Nothing was happening. The unions were out of control. And Keith Jowler said, business is the most exciting thing.

6:50If you're a businessman, think of all the dramas, the ups and downs. And I suddenly thought, actually, that's what I should write about. Because it seems very exciting. There was only one problem. I didn't know anything about business. And certainly not finance. I think most people who start out in business know little about business. That may be true. But if you're in journalism, you probably need to have some idea. but of course it was new terrain and uh they were good they were good to me they kind of agreed to train me a little bit now my knowledge probably went only a skin skin deep but it was enough in 1981 to be named the young journalist of the year in britain and the scotsman had never won that and i got these telegrams and i got letters and there was one from the first scottish national mp national snp member of the european parliament and it said i'll try and do the accent dear i'm so prude that a scotsman like lainal barber has won the young jersey yeah in britain congratulations you have some bad news for him yeah for her i'm english i couldn't break the news it was too hard you have to take the award yes i did i got it and that was why i got hired by the sunday times in 1981 and joined the business news section beautiful yeah what did business look like in 1981 well i it was terrible because we had a strong pound and british industry was completely uncompetitive.

8:32So we had all this manufacturing industry was collapsing. So I was made the industrial correspondent. And my colleague said that being industrial correspondent during the Thatcher government was a bit like being the monastery's correspondent under Henry VIII. There's nothing to cover. But I do, on the serious side, I mean, I remember going to see these business people along with a much more experienced reporter because I didn't really know the right questions and we would interview executives and at least two of them broke down in tears as they were describing the job losses and the technique that I learned from my colleague who had glasses and sort of silvery pepper salt hair, salt and pepper hair, he had terrible dandruff.

9:27So he'd get so excited that he'd start rubbing his hair and going, mm-hmm, like this, and the cloud of dandruff would appear. And therefore the businessman just wanted to get us out of the office because of all the dandruff. Oh, my God. And they told us everything. It worked. yeah i mean actually did i want dandruff i mean i'm interested in a story but not not too much to have dandruff yeah fine how quickly did you have to share the story with the rest of your team at the time given it was a very different way of of doing business well again you have to remember and it's i think it's worth reflecting because obviously I did very well later and I was the young journalist of the year but I didn't know very much and everybody at the Sunday Times was 15 years older and I remember they sent me off to cover the fishing industry in Hull well first first first of all it's called Ull not Hull and I went there and I interviewed I went down to the cafes and I interviewed a few fishermen and I came back and I was having trouble writing it because obviously I didn't feel the fishing industry.

10:40I think I wrote that story about six times. And at the end, the editor literally tore it up in front of my eyes and said, this is useless. And I said, why? And he said, it reads like Mills and Boone, which is a kind of popular romance. I mean, I tried to make it heartfelt and i just it was it was utterly terrible but if you've had a story torn up in front of your eyes i mean that's pretty humiliating and i figured i wasn't sure whether i could do this after that so you then have to that's when your resilience comes in and you kind of have to see i'm not going to let these people get me down and try and come back how did you come back two things great question as they say two things the first was i asked advice and i found another journalist who actually worked on the financial times and i'd met him on a young koenigswinter conference in berlin and this chap said to me your problem is that you don't have a patch you don't have something specific that you're covering you're you're kind of all over the place and therefore you won't make any mark so that was very good advice and the second piece of advice was somebody said you should interview people because if you're trying to write about the fishing industry of which you know nothing and you know you don't feel it whereas if you interview somebody, then you can write a bit of a profile and you get them to talk and then your confidence will get better and that probably will help.

12:29Well, that was very good advice. Did you go back and interview the fishermen? No, I interviewed a government minister. As one does. Yeah, I thought that was safer. It probably is safer. So you took the leap of faith really into political interviews, really? Yeah, business at that time. politics came a bit later after i joined the financial times i mean i yeah i interviewed that government minister but i i sort of was trying to write about smaller businesses and then i wrote about the city of london finance okay i was a bit more experienced by then and as a result of that uh i was then offered a job at the financial times okay and the parting words which is again for everybody who's thinking careers go in straight lines they don't because somebody said to me at my leaving party at the sunday times you're going to be buried nobody's going to hear about you anymore because you at the sunday times you're making your mark join the financial times it's over it's charming he was absolutely charming and then somebody was driving a very senior journalist same thing drove past me in his car stopped wound down the window and said you're a rat so i said if i'm a rat you're a sinking ship i thought i'm not having this yeah anyway this is all by the by way of saying there are moments in everybody's career when you get a challenge and you have to push back absolutely what did the financial times look like at the time when you joined?

14:10It was a very much a paper of record. So we'd have all sorts of lots and lots of stories at the back of small companies, three paragraph stories. They covered everything. But of course, because there was no digital side, you needed to go to the Financial Times to find out, you know, share price movements and company results. On the other hand, the paper was unique in Britain, and it's why I wanted to join, because it had a huge foreign correspondent network. They'd made a brilliant decision in the 70s to invest in a foreign network. It was like having an intelligence network all around the world.

14:59I mean, of course, we weren't spies, but you know you'd have four people in washington six people in new york three three people in in in germany and all that uh three or four in front paris so i thought i want to be a foreign correspondent that's what i really want to do so that's another reason why i joined the ft and i also noticed and this is important that the sunday newspapers they were beginning to feel it was harder to do something different because during the week someone like the financial times were doing more in-depth background stories so it was it was fairly male not many senior women very serious um i got told the first in the last job interview by the way you've got the job but we don't want any of your so-called Sunday Times scoops, which I took as a real insult.

15:58You did? Yeah. I thought you'd take it as a compliment. No, I think basically so. You know, we're hiring you, but basically all your stories that have been on the front page the last three years were made up. Yeah. They weren't. I see when they weren't. I got over myself. It's crunch time at work, and you need to bring wings to your workday. Visit redbull.com slash gettingitdone and answer a couple questions about your work style to get a Spotify customized playlist tuned to your productivity. Plus, score a can of Red Bull on us while you go from to-do to done. And remember, Red Bull gives you wings.

16:33Supplies are limited. Terms apply. Visit the website for more information. How did the timeline of hearing news or experiencing news or having a great interview to publishing it change over time while you were with the Financial Times? Well, it was huge because when I joined, I mentioned those small stories. I mean, we had to do, I don't know, five stories by 7 o 'clock, 7.30. Wow. If you did a big interview, it had to be done on the day. we had this huge piece which occupied a page an ilia page that was about 2300 words you know big deep analysis if there was some huge bid then you'd have to do it on the day and that's a really tough ask so when i moved to washington i mean i was getting up at 4 30 in the morning which would be 9 30 and then working through until about three um yeah sort of 10 o 'clock washington time and then filing so but as the internet took off which was 99 2000 suddenly people began to say they began to draw a distinction between sort of fast news i you can do it immediately um and by the way you can do it any time of day yeah and then the slow news well that can wait and so everything changed everything speeded up um i think there's a rush to judgment often not so much of the financial times but you know because everything was instant um it presented some real challenges um so when i became editor in 2005 after a long stint away in Washington, Brussels, and then New York.

18:36I mean, I think I was 50. So I was able to influence a lot how we tackled some of these questions and say, we're not going to rush things. We're going to be competitive, but we're not going to rush. To my understanding, you in many ways won that competition on digital where Financial Times became the leader in digital news quite quickly. Yeah, we did undergo a revolution. I mean, it wasn't a Maoist revolution, because people tend to disappear in that kind of thing. It was very tough evolution. So it took several stages for us to get to where we needed to be in in digital but the two or three things that i said from the outset we needed to do were one have a separate news operation that was digital with news desks and then into then bring it together with the news desk so you couldn't have it to be print led i everything result revolving around the newspaper we needed to get it to a position where the digital form was first and the newspaper was was a derivative and then we needed to explore all the amazing things that you could do with digital and obviously that's the moving picture that's video that means journalists suddenly appearing on audio form like podcasts as well as video all that we had to do at once and then we had to crucially which is where i think we did lead was say people are going to pay for this and they're going to pay quite a lot of money and obviously the business side supported this and i said i'll deliver the journalism you deliver the business model and it worked and so that and you maintain the pink paper oh that's crucial because it's like a luxury item it's also a status signal definitely i read the ft have the pink paper yeah and whereas people used to have the pink paper with a bowler hat they don't have that now but pink or when i was in america we never used to call it pink okay because that's dangerous it could be pink like you're pinky political you know communist or something so we'd say it's salmon color a salmon well or peach if you're in georgia okay yeah i i always would bucket a person into a certain bucket when i would see them reading the ft growing up and still till today i think it still has that certain status to it cachet is one way of looking at status i i agree with that now i'm i'm quite unashamed about uh you know when i was editor about bigging that up yeah because if you're going to charge somebody uh you know a cup of coffee then it better be worth it and you that means you've got to find people who are truly original in their thinking great writers you and finding, recruiting and retaining those people.

21:59Meanwhile, doing this digital transformation was the biggest challenge. But now I always said that we're a premium product, but I also said that we were like special forces, lethal, small, but lethal. Did you start your thinking while putting the teams together with, am I choosing the right people to satisfy the reader? Or are you starting with who the reader is and working back from there? Well, it was several things. I mean, first of all, I think, you know, it's 15 years ago now when I took over. But actually, sorry, 20 years ago. God, time flies. But, you know, I got the job because the previous guy had messed up a bit.

22:46And we'd kind of lost a bit of direction. I hadn't expected to get the job. I mean, I'd not thought that I could get the job, but then I was sitting in New York thinking, this place is not doing well. Maybe they'll give me the job. And if they give me the job, then I've got to have a plan. So it was only, I began to think about that. And the question you ask is really important, which is, it's not about you. I mean, obviously, I'd worked at the paper for 20 years when I got the job. almost 13 years abroad. But I knew, actually, it's more than that. It's 16 years abroad. But I knew who the reader was.

23:32The reader is that, you know, they're smart, they're international. So, you know, and they're pretty well pro-business. I mean, we can't kind of, we've got to be enthusiastic about business. We've got to be critical. But what we can't do is say, oh capitalism's finished because of the dot-com boom or something like that bust so i i i went about it saying first of all what really matters is knowledge about modern finance so capital markets are really important right who have we got right this person actually was jillian ted seems to me to be really smart. And so I'm going to promote her immediately.

24:18And then I'm going to look at the intellectual capacity and is it good enough? And the people who are really big, I'm going to promote. I'm going to make them big names. I'm going to be like some Hollywood movie producer. Making the actors. Yeah, definitely. Because there are stars. I mean, some people didn't like that because they hate it. Like if you're just talking about stars, where does that leave me? I remember we created something called the A-list. And then one of the top commentators came in to see me and said, does that mean I'm on the B-list? I mean, the ego. I said, let me think about that.

24:56But but I think so it's a mix of things. And then there's the sort of management team where if you're fortunate, I think it was old enough to realize that you want people who are going to challenge you. They have to be loyal, but you don't want a lot of yes women or yes men. That's a terrible thing. So I think I had enough knowledge. Obviously, you don't get it right first time. But the measure of success is, first of all, yeah, the readership went up. We got a million plus paying readers. But then the leadership team actually, when I stepped down after 15 years, just nearly, you know, nobody left.

25:44Even the disappointed candidates. They thought the institution was big enough that it wasn't just about them or me. And I think that's good. I mean, I care about that. I like that kind of leadership. The increase in readership and popularity is an easy measure of success, I would say. If you look at the numbers, they don't lie. But on a personal level, when interviewing people and crafting stories and sharing a message, all driven by that curiosity you're talking about, what was your personal measure of success? I think the technical term is a holy shit story. okay just where you walk out that interview and you go wow i can't wait to get to the computer and file this and that was like the interview with vladimir putin where we were in the kremlin waiting for four hours and then we finally get in there and i greet him in german and he answers me in german back and i'm playing uh because i and he said where did you learn where did you learn your german and i said actually at oxford and i said but i didn't just learn it at oxford or in germany but also at oxford where i studied modern history and he looked at me and in german said to me and i'm going what's what's modern history he says to me and i go oh god what am i going to say and it was like being hit by joe frazier you know it was so my brain was scrambled and then i said to him back in german everything after 1989 that's modern history and then he said sit down so the thing is i knew that that would be a great story you can write about it tell about it i mean that i got really excited about and then when he said the liberal idea is obsolete that kind of story when you're in the meeting with someone and powerful big world leader and you walk away but you know there are other things we did some great investigations wirecard um the investigation into the german payments company with those like enron when you know we had to fight for months the whole german establishment was after us they were threatening us with criminal sanctions but then there'd be some just stories where you know people were just day in day out producing great journalism and very high stakes so global financial crisis when literally the world almost melted down you know i think that was a very exciting time but where you you knew it was a collective effort not just me or a reporter in a big meeting.

28:24Yeah. So good. So good. So good. Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now, and they're up to 60 % off. Stock up and save on Rag & Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints, and more of your favorites. How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rock? For the hottest deals. Just so many good brands. Join the Nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. that's why you rack like the moment with Vladimir Putin using humor and that very relaxed opener is that something you would always do to just lighten up I figured that as long as I did it in I hope a classy way with a little bit of impishness not too much but where you get the people's attention.

29:24So I deliberately spoke to Vladimir Putin in German because I knew he spoke very good. He speaks excellent German. I mean, it's accent frei. He is really, you know, because he was a spy in Dresden. But similarly with Donald Trump, when I interviewed him, you know, I rehearsed my opening line, which was, you know, we were in the Oval Office and I said, thank you, Mr. President, for making time to see us. And thank you for subscribing to the Financial Times. And he looked at me and he just went, that's OK. You lost. I won. So there was a little bit of a game. You know, he was a step. I was putting my little patch.

30:09He shot back. You know, I think these things are worth doing because always the opener to a conversation is incredibly important. And if you're too bowing and scraping and thank you very much and your nose is on the floor, Putin will wipe the, you know, he will take you to the cleaners. So, or Trump too, because these are powerful people. Now, you know, if you go to see the chairman of the Federal Reserve, you know, you probably a little bit slightly different, you know, comment probably. I get the question all the time of how do you approach people in power and people who are powerful. So these two examples are great.

30:54But is there a formula that you have that you can share that you've even used away from the pen, away from journalism and in your own personal life of using humor, using this lightheartedness to connect with people? Yeah, I mean, I don't think I did it earlier, by the way. i mean obviously if you're the editor you know you you have a certain station i mean obviously you're not president of russia yeah or president of the united states and i by the way i would also be in france if you go in the elisee i mean it's so french that you know making a little english joke probably doesn't work even in french i think i think my french accent isn't really good enough to make a joke in French.

31:42But I think, so it does depend a bit. I mean, I remember, I'll give you one other example because I'm thinking about where did I use human? I remember being in Colombia and this was the last interview of a Latin American trip we'd done. We'd been in Argentina and Brazil and went to Colombia and I was with the Latin American editor. And you go into the president's palace and I mean, the security is unbelievable. It's bigger than the Knesset in Jerusalem. I mean, it's just, you know, really, really, really tight. And there are women guards wearing guns and everything. And anyway, I went in and sitting there and, would you like a coffee?

32:39you know after three coffees and two hours i'm going where is this interview and so i said to my colleague you know where what's going on and he said i don't know anyway i was conscious of this person behind me and i i looked back and it was this little guy and he said uh senior barbara i said yes barbie yes financial times he said el presidente very sorry for him he very busy uh he has a big important delegation from venezuela and he see you in one hour okay thank you very much and he walks off and i looked at my colleague and i said i can't believe it another hour that's three hours anyway who was that little guy then he said that was the president so i kind of went that was very funny but i thought when i go and see him i've waited three hours i can't let him get away with this yeah so after saying when you i realize you're very busy i asked him one question about his venezuelan problem on trade and the second question i said was i just looked at him and i said um mr president um uribe i said if two terms were good enough for george washington and why aren't they good enough for Uribe?

34:01Because he wanted to stand for the third term. And he got up and he literally started advancing to me with fists. And I thought he was going to hit me. And then he kind of stopped and he gave a big smile and he said, because I'm waiting for my Thomas Jefferson. And I thought that, again, that was where you can say something and there's a little bit of humor, but you always get a great reaction. You're going to get a reaction, especially from these kind of people. you have to stand your ground with your joke i think it's important yeah but if you're going to do the joke you have to do it with conviction yeah but you know that i try to know it i'm not to your i'm not my my audience is very different i'm not joking with presidents directly at least they might be watching yeah and if i'd gone to zelensky in kiev i would not be making a joke you know and i might say at some point but you know By the way, I'm the one who's bringing the ammunition, you know, or something like that.

35:00You know, just something where you might be able to just leave. But you'd have to, at the same time, especially in the early interviews, acknowledge, you know, here he is. People have tried to assassinate him. He's a war leader. That's got to be solemn and serious, right? This podcast is brought to you by Pubelle, by the Stade Guy. bringing you charms hand-painted with enamel on 925 sterling silver, allowing you to express all the things you love and all the things you might question. From reaver bateaux to baggammon board and caviar tins to paddle rackets, there is a poubelle charm or completed set for everyone in The Know.

35:43Thank you so much for watching and enjoy the podcast. I mean, ultimately you're putting yourself in the field, experiencing things, learning from people and then storytelling and through the storytelling connecting with the reader after having connected with the people you're interviewing and I think now more than ever we're in an era where people are journalists without even knowing I think you made a very clear decision to become a journalist but because of the way media has moved and the way people are putting messages out so easily and so frequently lots of people have assumed the role of journalists passively as a hobby without even realizing.

36:25But they're always actively trying to find that connection with their audience and find a great way to tell a story and tell a message. You're the expert here. What does it take to create that great connection with the audience in the same way that you were making that amazing connection with the people you're interviewing? Again, it's a really good question because it involves several things, I think. First of all, there's a difference between the citizen journalist who is just blowing off, sounding off, or an opinion. Like me. Or, no, I wouldn't say that. Or also someone who's just repeating a rumor or coming out with something that seems sensational.

37:14but it sort of disappears in 10 seconds under scrutiny. So we have to distinguish between those people who are doing sort of quasi-journalistic things as opposed to what I call journalism, which is still a kind of crafted message, and I don't mean crafted in a sinister sense. I mean actually you're taking time to think about the words, the images, and what it is. Now, to establish the connection, I actually think that showing some humanity is important. So that means a bit of modesty from yourself, but also where you're trying to connect with the person that you're writing about, or certainly, or especially when you're interviewing.

38:04So that means empathy, humanity at the extreme end, if you like, but empathy. um then i think if you're doing the kind of journalism you know i started a substat column um it means giving in a way that was not true you asked this question earlier in our conversation about what the financial times was like well in 1985 i mean god forbid that you as a reporter showed any of your own personality. I mean, we don't want any of that would be the answer. Whereas I think now with Substack, with others, where you have a picture associated with you or also the humor, just you're trying to convey a bit more of your character to attract an audience.

38:58An audience, by the way, that's got hundreds and hundreds of other options to how to spend their time. um and then i think my other comment were the two words i use which um i certainly used at the financial times was when there were people asking about well how do we survive how do we thrive in this new era of journalism and media i'd say deep and original well original certainly i mean you talked about how you started start guy you know when this was an original so it was something different and if you're just in the sort of middling mainstream you're not going to get anywhere that doesn't mean to say you have to go to an extreme it just means you need what's your original take and i think that requires a bit of reflection but also a bit of creativity and when you're making an original take can you be as original in your frame of thinking or do you to assume some level of values or assumed expectations of the publication that you're representing as a journalist as well well again distinguish between you're operating on substack for example or instagram versus you're contributing to a magazine like the atlantic or the spectator or the new statesman and as soon as you enter that where you're essentially writing for someone else i mean you still need to be yourself but you kind of need to be aware of who that magazine's audience is yeah whereas obviously when you're if you like operating free to air direct with your audience well it's you in a sea of other options so i think it's slightly different but again i think finding your own voice is very important i mean i found that as a writer it took me a long time because when you're starting unless you happen to be a genius which i'm not um you people take time to develop their writing style and it's constantly evolving by the way it doesn't stop absolutely i i can adapt and perfect my expression style my videos and the ways i communicate with my audience with a very tight feedback loop i can put a message out see how people react and put another message out that's slightly different based on how they've reacted but that's incredibly modern what would the feedback loops look like in 2005 and prior when you didn't really have that immediate conversation with the reader and how could you adapt your tone of voice accordingly?

41:57Again, I remember being, I wanted to write a column because that was a sort of status thing. But I'm a reporter by nature and I don't have really strong opinions. But I was, I'd done five years in Brussels and I thought, I want to write a column from Europe called European Viewpoint. So I asked the top columnist at the Financial Times, who was in his 60s, and I said, what do I need to do? I'm writing a column. And he just said, you need to find your own voice, but you won't find it for months, year, more. because it it's a new genre it's a new type of form and so you'll need to experiment and i remember that when i was dealing with colonists at the financial times because some of them they're actually even though they're brilliant they're quite insecure so you need to sort of nurture them um now just going back to directly answer your question the only feedback that you got was letters to the editor or letters from readers i mean other or maybe your peers that inside the newspaper so it was nowhere near as fine-tuned as as we now have and of course with print you in effect it was one shot okay there was could be a later edition of the newspaper where you could change it, but it's not anywhere near as malleable as now.

43:37So I think the scope for refining, fine-tuning is far greater. I mean, I think that must present other kinds of challenges, but it certainly can be done more quickly and flexibly. And how do you decide between sharing a message that you think the audience would like to hear versus sharing a message that's maybe more aligned with your own truth and what you think is important to share that the audience may not like? Well, I think I, again, this is becoming a Chinese confession here, but I think Twitter was fast becoming a problem because you'd start to express yourself in a way that you knew that would get a rise or get people provoked online.