Founder of de PURY, Auctioneer, Art Dealer, Collector & DJ: Simon de Pury – Collecting, Taste & The Power of Curiosity

29:14And so it has become a kind of a phenomenon like that. And these things, like these are waves, you know, waves come and go. But I believe that the interest for art will never disappear. It's something that we need. We do need to aspire to something better and bigger.

29:33The Gstaad Guy:I would argue that most attendees of Art Basel Miami me don't know that there's an art event in basel and that there's a city that there's even a city called basel oh that's right yes because uh art basel has become a real brand in itself and that is now detached from the city where it originated and i love that uh song by jay-z uh it's i think It's called Yo Picasso, and where he uses all big names from the art world. So he speaks about Jeff Koons, about George Kondo, and he also raps about Art Basel. And I thought, this is amazing. Once Jay-Z sings about you, then you know you've made it. I think Jay-Z and Kanye West had a big impact on art being part of mainstream media or hip-hop culture.

30:27The Gstaad Guy:when Kanye West started doing his album covers of George Kondo. I think that introduced George Kondo to a lot of people who were adjacent to the hip-hop culture and into sneakers, for example, and sneaker collectors. They started being curious about artists like Kondo. And then I think the next phase of that maybe was a lot of Banksy curiosity when there was some Supreme skateboards with Banksy on them and Supreme skateboards with George Kondo on them. I started seeing in the early 2010s to mid-2010s a lot more overlap between the art world, which seemed very secretive, prior to mainstream media and culture, where art became more accessible to people who had academic barriers in the past, like myself.

31:18The Gstaad Guy:I found the art world very intimidating. And then kind of overnight, I found the art world very cool and relatable as a teenager. You see, I'm so happy to hear you say all of this, because I think that Kanye West is exactly, he's the person who made a huge change. I know that nowadays it's not a name that, for obvious reasons, that people like to use. But he was the first hip-hop artist to be interested in art. with his album covers. He did the album cover by George Kondo. He did the album cover with Murakami. Yes. And then when he started, all of the others started. So 50 Cent started to buy art.

32:04They all did. And hip-hop culture, I think, is hugely, hugely important, not just musically, but as you say, in fashion, sneakers, for jewelry. I love hip-hop jewelry. I think it's very, very important for me. Hip-hop jewelry is as important, as important as, you know, Cartier jewelry was in the 20s, 30s, at the time of Jeanne Toussaint, or as Fabergé was at the beginning of the 20th century. You know, when people will analyze our times in hindsight, they will see how hugely important hip-hop jewelry was. And also, what you've described had a big impact on the market, because when you think that for many, many years Basquiat was the only artist of color to have made it into big museum collections or into big private collections, now it has completely changed.

32:57And that's when the main hip-hop stars started collecting art, that the price for African-American artists started going up. Then you had the Art Fair 154 that was founded with showing the best contemporary art being made in Africa. And so now it's completely changed around. And you have, if you look at all the main auctions and look at the top prices, a large percentage of the works are, you know, done by artists of color. And so the hip hop community played a key role. And I feel it's always important for the art market to focus and trying to find new areas. I'm obsessed with football and the overlap hasn't really happened yet.

33:46And Michael Ballack, the German player who used to play for Chelsea, is interested in art and collects. But my dream would be for Cristiano Ronaldo, for Haaland, for all the big megastars to get into collecting art. because when you become very affluent, the first thing is you buy a beautiful watch, then you buy jewelry, then you buy expensive cars, and maybe a beautiful home, etc. And the ultimate level, the highest thing, is once you start buying really, really great art. So it's just the final step to make. And a lot of these phenomenal football players have every car you can imagine. They own every watch you can imagine.

34:38They have stunning jewelry. And I look forward to the day when some of the biggest private collections will be by some of the biggest football players ever. Because for me, a great football player is an artist. Haaland is an artist. I mean, it's incredible. I am an Arsenal supporter. So Saka, what a fabulous, fabulous artist he is.

35:05The Gstaad Guy:Where have you seen that tipping point happen in the past where people collect lots of things, achieve tremendous success, and then make the transition to collecting art like a football player could and would? It takes always a little while, but I think we are at a time, especially with social media, where you have the influences who become kind of trendsetters. And I always find interesting who are the market makers, who are the tastemakers. And the tastemakers are not people who are inside the market, who are working inside. It's people from the outside. For a long, long time, and still today, there is a close link between the fashion world and the world of art.

35:50Some of the greatest private collections have been done by the great people in the fashion world. The Yves Saint Laurent Pierre Berger auction was for many years the most successful single-owner collection that had ever been sold. Les Deux-Moselles d 'Avignon, Picasso's towering masterwork, used to belong to Jacques Doucet, the French couturier. Karl Lagerfeld was an obsessive collector. But you can mention every single successful individual in the fashion. Each of them is a collector and they all have great collections. So there the link is fully there. And between music, it happened. And you see, the most shocking thing is that for many, many years, there were no female artists very very few female artists when you went to a museum had only a tiny percentage of female artists who were in those museums and my eyes were opened quite late to that because I was doing an auction in Dallas for MTV and they asked me to there was an exhibition of 65 works or something like that and they told me to choose 8 works that I wouldn't have to sell during the gala dinner and the money would go to AIDS charity.

37:09And so I went around the exhibition and chose the eight works that I thought had the highest potential to raise the maximum amount of money. Then after the auction, a lovely lady came up to me and she said, you're a male chauvinist pig. And I was slightly taken aback. And I said, really? And then she said, out of the eight works that you've sold, there were only two female artists. And I had to admit to myself, I had not even thought of the gender when I chose the works. I had purely thought of how I could get the highest price. And I think that the art world at some stage realized this cannot continue like that.

37:54And so whether it was the museums or the galleries, they all made a conscious effort to readdress this incredible injustice that had happened not only for decades, but for hundreds of years. And so, like in life, when the pendulum swings, it always swings all in the other direction. So now, if you take the main contemporary art auctions at Sotheby's, Christie's or Phillips, I was told that 72 % of the living artists being sold at auction today are female. So that shows that it did help that this was addressed.

38:38The Gstaad Guy:I would love to go back to those stages of the game of life that we briefly discussed, of people achieving success, collecting all these different things, ultimately making it to collecting art. the sort of boss stage in this game that I've seen is when people take that art collection and allow other people to enjoy it and experience it by displaying it at museums or even starting a foundation of their own. This is something I've been seeing more and more of lately, in particular. I'd love to learn more about that. Yes, I think that if you have a great passion and you derive a lot of satisfaction from your passion, you do like to share it.

39:26You want to share it with your friends, first of all. So you invite all your friends to your home and show off about what you have on your walls and in your home. But you want to share your success with the people, with the public at large. And so that's in America. You cannot be successful without giving back. And so most very successful American entrepreneurs are linked to some big cultural institutions and donate their collections or lend their collections to those institutions. And, of course, you also feel very validated if you see that the big museum shows your collection and so there is something very gratifying about that.

40:12I always say that the biggest collector, the biggest, most passionate people must be thieves because, as I said, To show off about something is a natural human trait. And if you rob a gallery or if you rob a major work from a museum, you cannot show it to a single human being. So you go into your cellar or into your safe and look at a painting and derive pleasure from looking at it, but you're absolutely not able to share it. So that is maybe the pure love of art. Of course, this is to be taken with a big, big, big pinch of salt. I am a great believer of sharing. And that's the beauty of social media.

41:08And that's why I love showing on my Instagram account. I show exhibitions that I've visited. And then now you can put 20 images. and so I like to put the 20 images that I found most intriguing, etc. This is a way of sharing it with other people. And so you can share at any level.

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42:54The Gstaad Guy:Get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. I would love to paint a clearer picture for the listeners today who may not know much about the art world, myself included, on the mechanics of how this world works and who the different parties involved are. So we have the collectors we've discussed. We have the auction houses and the auctioneers and the artists themselves. Who else is involved in this ecosystem? You have the gallery owners and very often the gallery owners plays a key role because it's them who discover the young artists and gives these artists the chance to exhibit for the first time.

43:44And the auction houses only start getting involved once there is traction and that the career of an artist is beginning to take off. That's when it then becomes worthwhile for an auction house to get involved. But the people who discover talents, that's a key role. And it's also tough because very often you have galleries that are very good at discovering young talent. But then once these artists become successful, they have great difficulties of keeping those artists. It's like if you're a small football club and you found the best talent, the 16-year-old player who is going to be phenomenal.

44:26It's very unlikely that this player is going to stay with a small football club. At some stage, sooner or later, a big club is going to take him over. And the same thing with the artist. And then in the ecosystem, you have all the people, yes, around even who are not neither collector or neither of the above categories you've mentioned, but who are just enthusiastic about it. You have the art critics. There is one very important art critic who has embraced social media very early. it's Salts Jerry Salts and he is followed very very widely he has a lot of humour very very witty he's utterly brilliant and I think that he has taken criticism to the 21st century and has used the potential of the social media to make it also a fun discipline

45:22The Gstaad Guy:I've heard the words Freeport being used recently what role does a freeport play and can you help us understand what that is so freeports are places that exist in various countries switzerland has a few but there's some in singapore there's some in luxembourg and in other countries where when you import a work of art in a any given country you have an import duty which will depend on the legislation of each country. Now, many collectors, they don't stop collecting once all their walls are filled with art. As I told you, it's a disease and it's not because your walls are filled that you're going to stop collecting.

46:06So what you do with this surplus of art, either you lend it to an institution or to a museum or you put it in storage. Now, if you have not decided yet where you will install it, And especially if you own several homes, you may have your, the Kstart guy may have his phenomenal house in Kstart, but he has equally his incredible house in Saint-Tropez and he has this place in Mexico, whatever. So the start guy will say, well, until I know where I will have this work, I put it in Freeport like that. I don't have to pay any import duties and I will pay those import duties only once I take it out of the Freeport and send it to this and this destination.

46:52So that is why the Freeports are filled with great, great art. Now, I'm an idealist. And when I started in this business, I was saying to everybody, art is there to be seen by people. It's not there to be hidden in a vault. Now, I have to admit, I am myself. I live in a small apartment in Monaco. Most of the artworks that I own, I have them in storage place. And so you do rapidly put art in storage. but also most museums what you see in the museum is just the tip of the iceberg the vast majority of their collections are not on public view so there is a lot of art that is not being seen so my dream would be a free port that is open to the public so instead of you going to see all these things I love spending a lot of time in free ports and I go there quite often where I look at great works and you open the crates But these works could be seen by the public in a place which is free of any taxes.

48:01And if you lend your work to this place, it's on public view. These would be some incredible museums. Imagine if everything that is in the Geneva Freeport was opened to the public. This would be a massive, massive kind of magnet for art lovers from all over the world.

48:19The Gstaad Guy:This podcast is brought to you by Pubelle, bringing you interchangeable charm jewelry hand-painted with enamel on styling silver, allowing you to celebrate all the things you love and all the things you might question through interchangeable styling silver bracelets, bangles, whoop, charms, mini charm, bracelets, rings, cufflings, and much more. And all customizable through our 3D Builder on Pubelle.com. That is poubelle, P-O-U-B-E-L, dot com. Thank you so much for watching. And now back to the podcast. So if right now I have a work in a free port and I'd like to put it on display in New York, I have to pay import taxes on that piece of art?

49:07Yes. Now, the legislation, again, changes also for temporary import. There are places where you can bring in something for temporary import, but then you have to take it out again. But if you want to bring something to a place and leave it there, this brings percentages that you have to pay.

49:26The Gstaad Guy:Fine. I've also understood that there is a financial consideration that people take of insurance. When something leaves the free port and is on their home or on board their boat, where there could be some weather damage, could be some sun damage, they must also think about that every time they even put a painting in their own home. It's very important, of course, how you look after a work of art. I always say, whether you are a museum director, a curator, a collector, an auctioneer, whatever, our prime responsibility is to bring this art in best condition to the next generation, to bring it and keep it for future generations.

50:08Therefore, that's our prime responsibility. And therefore, the advantage of these storage places, they are equipped in terms of humidity, in terms of conditions, so that the art does not deteriorate. I made the painful experience very, very early in my collector's life. I was in Budapest and I saw an artist who was doing all his works in wax. And I madly fell in love with a work that was entirely done in wax. And I bought it for hardly anything. It was a very modest price. and I shipped it to Geneva where I was living at the time. It was more expensive to ship it from Budapest to Geneva than the price I had paid for it.

50:51And I was very, very proud. I thought I have discovered this young artist who is going to do really, really well. My then wife hated it when she saw the work and my adult children who were little at the time hated it as well. Anyway, I said, you will see one day you'll realize how smart I am And so they would hang it on the wall. And one day I was on the phone and I look, while I speak on the phone, I look distractedly at the wall. And I see that all the wax had melted down to the bottom of the canvas. So I sent the photograph of it to the artist. And he said, I'm terribly sorry. I can't help you.

51:33This work is a wreck. You had too much heat near it. And so there's nothing I can do it. so it was a complete write-off my ex-wife and my children were delighted that the work left where it was hanging but there I realized that the state of condition of artwork is very important and there is, I always say there is one criterion when you buy art which is very emotional because you as a start guy may love something that I as myself may not love at all However, so that's what I call the emotional quotient. But there is a long list of very rational points which apply to everyone. And if you tick off all of these points, then you are much more prudent in the way you spend your money.

52:25Because nobody enjoys having spent something and then to see the value plummeting down. So there are a lot of rational factors that you can use. and you pointed out one of them, which is absolutely key, which is the physical condition of an artwork.

52:41The Gstaad Guy:Can we go through the other factors? Well, it may take us more than one podcast for that, but I can mention some of the factors that are important. Thank you. One is the provenance. You may feel, what does it change? Who an artwork did belong to? Provenance is important. So if it did belong to the start guy, it's a very cool thing. You know, this is the first artwork that the start guy. You're giving me a lot of credit today, but I appreciate it. Or you can say it belonged to this or that person. And artworks have a life of their own. They have a fate of their own. And so it's fascinating to follow the itinerary of an artwork itself.

53:30So now the less important the artwork is, the more the multiplying factor of good provenance plays a role. So in my previous life, when I was with Sotheby's, we organized the auction of the jewels of the Duchess of Windsor in Geneva. And there was the Maclean diamond, which was the most important diamond in the jewelry collection, which sold for three and a half times the price. It would have been worse if it had not been the Duchess of Windsor's diamond. However, the cufflinks of the Duke of Windsor, they sold for a value which was 3 ,000 times the multiplying factor. Because, as I say, the less intrinsic value the object has, the bigger the multiplying factor is due to a prestigious provenance.

54:22Equally, there are provenances, if it has belonged to a horrible figure from history, you will not want to touch it. because I believe in the bag, the aura, not only of people but of objects. I think we are all made of energy and some objects have very, very bad energy and you don't want to be near it.

54:41The Gstaad Guy:Have you had to deal with pieces like that at auction? I have seen extraordinary story. No, at auctions, the auction houses don't touch things like that. But I have seen instances where the artwork chooses a buyer and not the other way around. By now, you will think that I'm a nutcase. No, no, no. But there was this collector who went to see an exhibition at the Kunsthaus in Zurich. And he madly, madly fell in love with a painting. And then he went to the director of the museum and said, listen, I absolutely want to buy this work. can you please give me the name of the owner and the director said I'm not allowed to give you the name of the owner however if you write a letter to the owner I'm happy to send it on to this person so he did that and he gave it to the director of the museum and never heard anything again and five or six years later he was in a different city and I will not say now which city not to give clues and suddenly a storm breaks out and absolutely solid rain.

55:57I mean, it really starts pouring down. And so he stands outside Jule and I have to go inside just to not to get soaked. So he goes inside and then the person asks him, where do you come from? The Jule asks him and he says, I come from Zurich. And then he said, oh, that's interesting. You know, I had lent a painting to an exhibition at the Kunsthaus in Zurich. And actually, a person wrote to me that he wanted to buy this picture. And then he said, it's me. I wrote to you that letter. And they were both so much under the shock about the coincidence that they met that he sold him the painting. And another example.

56:44I remember when I was at Sotheby's, there was a fabulous work that came from Gstaad. And it came from one part near Oberbord in Gstaad. And we shipped it all the way to New York. It sold in New York very, very well. And it was bought by somebody who lived in Gstaad. And the painting went all the way back to Gstaad. And it was only 100 meters later. Now, the former owner did not know the new owner, but there's something where it belongs to that place. And I can tell you endless such stories. So for me, this confirms the fact that the energy of an artwork is as important as the energy of a human being.

57:33And we underestimate the power of the energy. And there's so many circumstances that will play for you making an acquisition or not making an acquisition. You may wish to bid on something at a big auction. You're taking a car and suddenly your battery runs out. And because of that, you will not be able to bid on it. So there are so many elements that seem accidental, but that maybe are not accidental.

57:59The Gstaad Guy:You seem to be quite in touch with the energy that belongs to... And the piece and that could match well with a person's energy. Have you ever watched Harry Potter? I actually have not watched it or not, but I understand, of course, about the... There's a character in Harry Potter called Ollivanders and he sells wands and he knows who every wand belongs to. Which wizard should own a wand and which one should belong to a wizard? I think you're like Mr. Ollivanders. Are you ever sitting in an auction house or in an event and you already have a strong feeling that an art piece would match well with a certain owner and it turns out to be the case?

58:45Yes. I mean, both as a dealer and as an auctioneer, it's key to figure that out because I used to think very naively that a great artwork sells itself because the quality is so outstanding. everybody will realize this is unbelievable. But no, it does not sell itself. So you have to make sure, and you're saying this person or that person is the dream candidate for it. And you have to make sure that this person knows that this work is for sale. And then to make sure that this person is on the day of the sale, at the time of the sale, is going to be at least at the end of a telephone line. Wow. And so what you've just described It's exactly the job of any real art dealer, of any auctioneer.

59:31The Gstaad Guy:You have played the role of an auctioneer with an auction house, but you've also been an entrepreneur running an auction house of your own. I'd love to learn more about those two different experiences. so by the time you know i've been now 55 years in the business so i think the luck that i've had is that i've done it under so many different angles so yes i've done it as an auctioneer i've done it as an art dealer i've done it as a museum director when i ran the thiesen bonamisa collection when I was curator of Barenteessen's collection. So I also saw it from the perspective of a mega private collector.

1:00:14And I've worked in large infrastructures when I was with Sotheby's and in a smaller infrastructure when I owned Philips. And I found it very, very interesting. I think the Philips years were possibly some of the most exciting years in my career because we were the clear underdogs because there is a duopoly, the duopoly which is Sotheby's and Christie's who you know there are very very few brands where the brands are more important than the individuals in the company in the art market and of course other areas you have lots of brands but the big brands in the art market are Sotheby's and Christie's who are the duopoly of the auctions we've mentioned Art Basel which is a big brand Fries is a brand and then the most successful dealers which is Gagosian or Hauser & Werd or Zvena but the test for a brand to become a brand is when the founder is no longer there there is no longer a person called Christy at Christy there is no longer a person called Sotheby's at Sotheby's and so I'm completely digressing where we started the question But as an entrepreneur, I loved this time because we were the underdog.

1:01:42And it's great when you're the underdog because you have to be imaginative. I knew that we didn't have the means to compete with the big ones. We didn't have the pockets deep enough to do so. So we decided to specialize on few areas. So decided to specialize on the best contemporary art done over the last 25 years. And that was an area back then that neither Sotheby's or Christie's were focusing on. And we were giving those works beautiful displays. I wanted to do the most beautiful catalog still to this day. I think that we produce the best physical catalogs that existed at the time. And by giving the focus and the space and all of that to these artists, we created careers for the secondary market of all the key artists, I think, who emerged in the first 20 years of this century.

1:02:45I think that we played a key role in making these careers because before every season, I would sit down with my colleagues and say, which are the artists who have never been sold at auction before, which we will introduce to the auction market. So that was hugely exciting. The second thing we did was design because I love design. And it goes hand in hand because nowadays, if you have great art, you don't want lousy furniture and lousy design. You want there to be a coherence between it. And so you want to. So there's a big overlap in the people who buy the best art and buy the best design. Absolutely.

1:03:23And then photography. I'm obsessed with photography because that is, after all, a medium of our times. Everybody with social media is a photographer. We look and devolve photographic images all day long. And so we also focus on photography. And we, in those areas, became the absolute leaders. We also had decided to go into Watchers and I had seen this young genius who was Orel Bax. I hired him when I was at Sotheby's and instantly he was a very young man. Instantly Sotheby's became the leader in Watchers. Then I hired him a second time at Philips. Instantly, we became the best in watches. But he was so good that Christie's stole him.

1:04:12And then he went to Christie's. And then Christie's became number one in watches. And when I sold Philips, I told the new owners, the current owners of Philips, I said, listen, this guy is unbelievable. They managed to get him back. And now all the big best watch auctions are taking place at Philips.

1:04:31The Gstaad Guy:I had the pleasure of spending time with Aurélien. He's larger than life. He's an amazing character. He's incredible. He's an incredible guy. And he is the example of what passion can make. Passion and obsession. Yeah. I love the topic of obsession, especially when it comes to collectibles and things that are a choice versus a necessity. I think it's a very different side of the brain when people choose to be obsessed with something versus when it's a consequence of some element of their lives. And when I see collectors that are obsessed with their craft, they may differ from other collectors who are obsessed with different things, but they do share lots of values and things they find value in.

1:05:17The Gstaad Guy:You're exposed to a lot more of these collectors than I am. I'd love to unpack what the similarities you see between collectors and people who are obsessed with certain things when the obsession itself is actually different? Yes, it's a question of what you prioritize in your life. And when you are obsessed, then it clearly becomes your priority. And we've just seen now in New York at Sotheby's this world record for this wonderful painting by Gustav Klimt. And one of the most obsessive, crazy collectors I've ever known was Mr. Leopold in Vienna. And he was a dentist, and he put all his passion into buying works by Schiele, Klimt and the artists of that time.

1:06:03And I remember him giving me a lift in his car in Vienna and there were literally holes in the bottom of the car. I thought, I was wondering whether we were going to make it. I thought this car was going to collapse any minute. But it was clear this man would never have bought a new car is that as long as his cars could more or less move, he would put everything into the art. Or once in Geneva, I board a plane and I see a mega collector who will remain nameless and he sees that I have a business class ticket and then he comes to me and full of contempt says, well, you can afford it, but I'm a collector and he was sat at the bottom bottom end of the tourist class and this is a super super super wealthy collector but his obsession is such that he was not going to waste it on a business class ticket where all his resources had to go into art

1:07:10The Gstaad Guy:well I actually would love to talk about some of the behaviors that you think make a good actor in the art world What are some habits or ways of acting that the shtad guy would maybe embody if he were to be an expert art collector? Yes, I always feel that whatever you do at the end of the day is the attitude is the most important thing. Attitude is much more important than knowledge. I think also than experience because you can have zero experience. But if you have the right attitude, anything will become possible. And also, I think any job can become the best job in the world. I always say you can be an artist in any field.

1:08:00There's two examples that I love of other professions. If you do it at a certain level, there was the doorman of Christie's in New York. If you came, arrived in New York in a yellow cab, or if you came out of a chauffeured limousine and came out of the Phantom Rolls Royce. He leapt to the car, opened the door, as if you were the most important client who had ever come to Christie's. And so you walked into the building and you felt so good. You felt so wonderful. And it was not forced. You felt this man really enjoyed welcoming every single person who was walking into the building. He did it so much that I felt this man is an artist.

1:08:45For me, this man was more important than any other person in the whole company because he lifted the job of a doorman to a completely different level. I've seen bankers being so creative and so brilliant with their imagination that they were no longer bankers. They were artists. And that's what I find. So when I was interviewing young people, and that's something I always loved doing, young men, young ladies interviewing for a job, it's not what their address book was, whom they knew, who they did not know, how much knowledge they had about art. It was to see what was their enthusiasm and what was their hunger and what was their ambition, but in a pleasant way.

1:09:34And if I saw that they had that, I thought everything else will happen. They will instantly create a good address book for themselves. They will instantly learn. And whereas you can have other people who have the best connections in the world who are incapable of transforming it into business. So attitude is the key.

1:09:57The Gstaad Guy:In terms of the attitude itself, I think from what you're saying, it stems from being genuine and a genuine sense of love and passion for the act versus it being a performance of some kind. Yes, it has to be, because if you're not, it doesn't come across. And I view it a bit like in music, because you see, you have many people who are absolute virtuosos, who have every skill. You also have artists, visual artists, who are incredibly skillful. And it's, of course, fantastic if you're skillful. Skills is an important element and it helps a lot. And you should have skills. But skills alone will not do it.

1:10:43You need that extra dimension. And sometimes the extra dimension comes from imperfection. You may fall in love with somebody because of their imperfections, not because of them absolutely being so perfect that it becomes boring. For the listeners today who want to get into the art world but feel intimidated by it, they may be aware of the art calendar, which dominates social media these days

1:11:12The Gstaad Guy:with things like Art Basel in Miami or Fries Art Fair in London or many different art events around the world. but they don't know how to actually put their foot into the door and participate and even start collecting. Where do you suggest that someone starts if they'd like to take their curiosity into actually feeling like they're a part of this community? I think initially the best thing is just to go and look. For instance, all the big auction exhibitions are open to everyone. you don't need to pay to visit you can literally walk in at Sotheby's, Christie's and Phillips and you can see all these works that are on display, all these works that will disappear in some private collections one day, you see them there, you can literally touch them or the art fairs, you go from booth to booth, you see a lot so initially just enjoy it and try and work out what appeals to you personally because I do not believe that you can do a good collection with your ears only.

1:12:21You cannot delegate to somebody, do me a collection. It has to correspond to what you in your belly enjoy and like. But I do think that the art world is making a big mistake in not being accessible. In most galleries you walk in, you see the reception desk, and the reception desk is very high, and you see only the top of the head of the people who walk there. And they very often look at you very snootily and you already feel intimidated to go and ask a question and i've seen even very affluent people coming to auctions and feeling intimidated not knowing how to behave so i think that we in the art market need to do a much better job in making it accessible and the more accessible you make it the more you learn about it the more you want to get into it because Because with knowledge comes the need.

1:13:16With knowledge, with education, art education. As you learn, as you go along, that creates the desire then to go more into it. I've never, the first step for a collector is a key step. After the first step, the next step comes automatically. And I've never seen somebody who suddenly stops collecting. You collect all your life. And in fact, very often I have seen people who were literally very, very ill or completely at the end of their life and were still making major acquisitions because it's a sign of vitality. It shows that, OK, I may have lots of things in my arm and I may be on my bed and all of that.

1:13:58However, the fact that I just acquired this work is a sign of vitality.

1:14:03The Gstaad Guy:I think assuming that people's desires for art are led by the heart and led by interest is a beautiful thing. But I think some people are financially motivated at times, and they actually are maybe leading with their ears by hiring someone because they just want to invest in the art and flip it, where it maybe never leaves the free port. And they're more interested in the business of art rather than art itself. How do you feel about that as a category? Because I think it naturally, with the existence of that, it likely drives up prices for others. you see there is always this distinction being made between pure real passionate collectors and speculators who only are in it for the money i think this is a ridiculous distinction because nobody even if you're the purest most passionate collector nobody is going to be proud if you spent one million dollar on a work and now it's works worth only a hundred thousand do you think you will have any joy telling your friends, I paid a million and now it's worth only 100 ,000.

1:15:17So it only makes human sense that if you spend a lot of money and it doesn't matter what it is, if it's a lot of money versus your own possibilities, you want to make sure that you minimize your risk. You never have anything that is risk-free in any market, of course. But that's why we come back to the points. As I said, you can go through this checklist and at least take off as many rational points as possible so that you are not completely exposed. But of course, we live in a life when things change. And also there is an acceleration in the evolution of taste. Taste changes more rapidly than it used to.

1:16:02The Gstaad Guy:You mentioned that you listened to my podcast with Steve Varsano. on the episode we had a very fun game where we spoke about the etiquette on board private travel and people loved it and i think that within charity events when people are bidding on things or even auctions when people are bidding there are naturally some do's and don'ts i was wondering if we could step into that and play a game of what are the things people should avoid doing and what that things people should definitely do when taking part in an auction? Well, in a way, when you attend an auction to bid, and I've done it, of course, many, many times, also attending auctions and buying on behalf of collectors and, of course, conducted endless auctions, it's a different game.

1:16:56So the auctioneer has to try and obtain the highest possible price, whereas you, as a buyer, will want to get it at the least expensive price. And so you will not want to show me as the auctioneer that you're determined to go whatever it goes to, you will go for it and you're in it for the long haul. So you want to give me as auctioneer the impression that this is your last, last possible bid and that you're about to give up. And so there is this sort of game. So the seasoned auctioneers, the seasoned bidders in the room try to play it ultra cool. Even if inside themselves the heart is beating very, very strongly, you try and play it super, super cool so that you don't give away your motivation.

1:17:50But the bizarre thing is that even then you are kind of like on a wavelength. I feel, and that's why I also love DJing, because a good auctioneer will be able to put himself or herself on the wavelengths of the buyers. And so sometimes when I conduct an auction, I literally feel in advance which person is going to bid. Whereas I can sit next to an auctioneer and have no clue of who's going to bid. and so you have to constantly adjust and adapt yourself as an auctioneer and for a bidder it's the same thing so in DJing for instance if people leave the dance floor it means oh I mean I've immediately got to readdress this so that's why you cannot have a clear set list and come as a DJ and say this is the list that I will do you've got to keep that flexibility And so it's improvisation is the name of the game.

1:18:57So as a bidder, just play it cool is the advice.

1:19:02The Gstaad Guy:I'd love to know more about your love for DJing. Yes. So I'm obsessed with music. And I always say all the passions that you develop when you're a teenager basically are the passions you then carry through life. So my main passions, at least those that I can speak of, I developed as a teenager. And so now my two older brothers were very talented musicians and they never had any lessons. So my oldest brother was an incredible piano player. My second brother was even better because he played piano and was a trumpetist. And so he was playing with the left hand trumpet and accompanying himself with his right hand.

1:19:49So my parents thought with the last son, we'll do the best. We'll send him to a piano teacher. And I remember these piano lessons, they were a nightmare because as soon as I would hit a wrong note, there was this lady who would hit me with a ruler over my hands. And so it absolutely disgusted me from taking any music lessons. and that was the end of my career as a musician. But I love music so, so much that when I became 60, I thought, I want to become a DJ. And then I did my first DJ gig in Berlin. And my children, my four adult children, were saying, oh, how embarrassing. Our father has an acute late-life crisis.

1:20:34And they came to the gig. and while I was, you know, mixing at the desk, I saw that on the dance floor, all my four kids were dancing phonetically. So after the gig was over, I went up to them and I said, you may be very embarrassed having your father having decided to become a DJ, but you're not embarrassed enough not to dance to it. And meanwhile, they find it cool. But so it's kind of, you know, it's like, I also love it because people don't expect me to be a DJ because as you can see the way I'm dressed and all that it's the opposite of what a DJ normally looks like and I don't try to dress up as a DJ I come in my uniform regardless whether I conduct an auction or I'm a DJ and I like this kind of disconnect between the activity and what you look like.

1:21:33The Gstaad Guy:What genre of music are you usually playing? So I usually play very current music to kind of show my street credibility. And then I love going from all decades, you know, being very eclectic. And whatever keeps people on the dance floor is basically what counts. Amazing. It's basically the same skill as auctioneering. That's why I say I see the two things as being closely related. Yeah. I would love to touch on Switzerland. Your upbringing in Switzerland. Your ties to Switzerland. I, of course, have deep ties to Stad. I'd love to paint a picture for the audience of what it means to you to be Swiss and to carry those Swiss values in all these different rooms that you are present in.

1:22:20Well, I think I owe Switzerland a lot. It's like in life, you learn all your life and you never realize when you learn. and it's having spent all of my life outside of Switzerland, all of my adult life outside Switzerland, I realize how much I owe to Switzerland. I think because Switzerland, what is it to be Swiss? It's people have come from all over the world, have come to Switzerland. So, you know, there was a Huguenots who went to Switzerland. I remember when Hungary got invaded in 1956, we had a Hungarian refugee that came to live in our home and I had inherited a beautiful watch from my grandfather and I remember my mother saying, you know, we have to give your watch to the refugee because he has nothing at all and I'm sure you will agree to your watch being given to him.

1:23:17And I said, yes, of course, I understand. But then, you know, after what happened in the Czech Republic, etc. etc. And each time, for instance, the person who saved the Swiss watch industry was Mr. Hayek, who is Lebanese. And so what has made the strength of Switzerland is the people who have come from everywhere. And that's, I think, the openness on what happens around the world is what makes you strong. And the danger is when you try to close up, because there is, of course, in Switzerland, the tendency of wanting to close up and not look at all the wealth you can get from the elements coming from everywhere else.

1:24:02So that is something I loved. The other thing I loved about Switzerland, I went to public school, and in public school, you only went to private school if you were too bad. You couldn't follow public school. So that was my case. I was half, first career of my school career, first half was in state school. But then I was such a bad pupil that finally I was sent to private school. But you have a mix. You see at school people from different backgrounds, everybody. And then I did my Swiss army service, military service. I remained a simple soldier though I have not made a career in the Swiss Army.

1:24:49However, as an experience, it's invaluable because it really helps you to be able to understand people from completely different backgrounds, different occupations, different motivations, and it gives you that openness. And I think it helped me so much. Probably all of what I do would not have happened if I wasn't lucky to have been born there.

1:25:18The Gstaad Guy:What about in terms of more social intangibles from Switzerland, ways of being, ways of acting? Are there any things that are deeply Swiss that you feel you've carried with you around the world? Well, there is something about Swiss very reserved. So let's say we don't have a very, very Latin temperament, even the Latin part of Switzerland, the Italian part of Switzerland, or the Romance part of St. Moritz and the Engadine. I think a common denominator of all Swiss is they are relatively reserved. They are low-key. In Switzerland, if you're successful, it's very badly seen to show off. In the contrary, if somebody shows off, it means he's not an important guy.

1:26:09The more low-key somebody is, the more simple his car is, etc., etc., the more you think, oh, this guy could be really wealthy. And so this understatement is a plus and is a negative because, for instance, until people invite you to their homes, it takes a long, long, long time. And you earn their friendship. And it's a very slow, gradual process. Once you've earned their friendship, you've got it forever. but I love of course you go to America you take the elevator with somebody and by the time you arrive on the 20th floor you're close friends with a person that you and you know so much about their life just you found out in that short lift journey and you think oh my god this has become my best friend and you realize that it's completely superficial and it doesn't stick

1:27:04The Gstaad Guy:I see that I try to actually talk about that a lot in my and my content with Shtadke. When you are public-facing, do you sometimes play a role of sorts or are you always just your truest form of self? I am Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde because when I'm at a dinner, for instance, at a charity auction and the person doesn't know me and I sit next to them and I'm a very boring dinner neighbor, especially before an auction because I get very tense and nervous before that, before going on stage. And then once I'm on stage, I become a different persona. Then I switch and then people are in a shock. This can't be the same person that I just sat next to at dinner.

1:27:53So, yes, I have these two sides in me, which one is the side that I project when I conduct an auction And the other side is the boring, low-key guy who's just very happy to be the lonely wolf.

1:28:09The Gstaad Guy:On this podcast, we always play a game of à la poubelle versus fantastique, where we take things we want to see less of and throw them à la poubelle and celebrate the things we would like to see more of and call them fantastique. I would love if you could share a few à la poubelle and a few fantastiques from your industry and from the world that surrounds you. Things you'd like to see less of. Let's start with à la poubelle. I hate hypocrisy. So à la poubelle. I love passion. Fantastique. I hate falseness. I love à la poubelle. You can say I love as well. Don't worry. It's implied. I love integrity.

1:28:57Fantastique. I love a lack of calculation, fantastique, vice versa, à la poubelle, purely strategic and calculating. I think there's a certain justice there because there are many more things that are fantastique in the end than à la poubelle. Absolutely. And I feel every life, every person that you, once you get to know the person and go behind the facade, you see that nothing is ever all fantastique or nothing is ever all poubelle. there is a percentage. And you just have to be careful that once the poubelle percentage is higher than the fantastique percentage, then you've got to act on it and you've got to do something for it.

1:29:54But it's quite a close balance and there is no plain selling. There's nothing. I always say, don't judge a cover, a book by its cover. It's once you, and that's the beauty about getting to know people from all different walks of life. Once you see behind the facade, once you know somebody a little better, you realize that every itinerary has obstacles, has sadnesses, has big failures, has very, very sad things. And of course, has the beauties and exhilarating and wonderful things and has triumphs. So it's that balance. And it's also being able to take the bad things with elegance, which is fantastic.

1:30:45The Gstaad Guy:Absolutely. I agree. You mentioned earlier in this episode a couple of things that have changed for the better in the art world, like the gender equality, people of color getting the recognition that they rightfully deserve in the industry. Are there any things you'd like to see improve over time that have not yet been actioned possibly? I feel in terms of the market that there is not yet a way where you can acquire works of art in an easy, inexpensive way. Because the commission rates, if you buy something at auction, if you buy, it doesn't matter, you decide how much you want to pay for it. But if you sell an object, you need to leave at least 25 to 28 percent on the table.

1:31:49And these percentages are, in my view, far too high. The art market has to find a way to sell art in a more efficient, in a more economic way. And if and when it will succeed bringing those commission rates down, it will grow exponentially. The art market when I started 55 years ago was tiny. It is, of course, much wider. It's global and this and that. But it is still very small in absolute terms. So the upside potential of the art market is massive. And that's where we need the innovation of the technology, of AI. All of that will bring knowledge accessible to all and access, making it easier to acquire works of art.

1:32:43And so I think that that's why the most exciting part of the art market is ahead of us.

1:32:49The Gstaad Guy:I love your optimism, generally. Simon, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know it was. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. This is a real honour to sit with you today. No, no, it was a great, great pleasure. It was really fun. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Stade Guy podcast. If you're keen to learn more, please follow along by engaging with our social channels on Instagram, TikTok, Spotify, YouTube, and Apple podcasts. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Merci beaucoup. A la prochaine and a big hug from the Start Guy.

1:33:55The Gstaad Guy:Notre Dame MBA. Tap now to learn more.