Jeremy Zimmer: Co-Founder & Former CEO of UTA – Building a Next-Gen Talent Powerhouse, Shaping Success, & The Nobility of Representation

0:00When we met for the first time and we were in Stockholm and then Stad, we had the pleasure of talking about all your amazing work with UTA and what I'd love to step in the world. was really, really nice. And spending time with you is always great. So I'm happy to be a part of this show. And I imagine it'll be very successful. I hope so. Thank you. Around the world with your host, the Stardguy. We welcome you back to the Stardguy podcast, sharing stories of excellence with those in the know for those who just know. Well, Jeremy, thank you so much for being here today. I would love to start off the conversation with your journey with UTA and why you've chosen to start the United Talent Agency when you did.

1:15Yeah, it was actually 34 years ago, kind of this week, that we started UTA. And UTA really came out of, I had been at two large agencies, William Morris and ICM. And I left ICM and I was sort of frustrated with the size of the agency and the inability to sort of rally people around the things I thought were important. And I really was interested in, you know, how could we, you know, I was really interested in just doing my thing with my clients and not having to be part of this big machine. And so I left ICM and I was, you know, I was 29 years old and I was the sort of number three guy there with a bunch of people reporting to me and a lot of responsibility.

2:04And I left and went and joined these two guys, Marty Bauer and Peter Benedict, who had an agency called the Bauer Benedict Agency. and I was the third partner and probably the 18th employee. So I went from this agency that had offices all over the world and a thousand employees. And suddenly, and I was there for about a week. And in that week, I had lunch with Marty and Peter like three days in a row. And we had Chinese chicken salad and had the same conversation. And I thought to myself, I've made a terrible, terrible mistake. That, you know, suddenly I realized I missed, as much as I didn't like a lot of the nonsense, of the big agency.

2:42I missed the scope and breadth and input and all that other stuff. So pretty quickly thereafter, I started thinking about, well, what should we be doing here and how can we grow it? And we started hiring a few younger people and started focusing on a couple of other things. And then maybe a year later, I was on a raft trip in the Grand Canyon and with a bunch of Hollywood luminaries. Jeff Katzenberg, who was running Disney at the time, would put together this raft trip and he would invite Don Simpson, who was a big producer, and Jerry Bruckheimer and Tom Cruise and all these people on the raft trip.

3:20And he invited me. I did a lot of business with Disney at the time. And he also invited this guy named Jim Berkus. But Jim Berkus and I were on the scale of things in the Grand Canyon, with the Grand Canyon being the biggest thing, Tom Cruise being the next biggest thing, we were very much one of the smaller things in the Grand Canyon and very aware of feeling that way. So the two of us, while you're going down the Grand Canyon, you stop for lunch and stuff and you take these hikes into the back. And we go through this hike and we find ourselves at the end of a ravine and there's a waterfall. And I end up sitting next to Jim Berkus behind the waterfall.

3:57And we start having this conversation about kind of how small we feel like look at all these famous people all these big powerful people and we kind of feel like these two schnooky guys running these two small agencies and uh we came to the conclusion under that waterfall that we should put our companies together okay and uh that's where it started and and the the impetus that i felt in the marketplace at the time was that there was nobody really focusing on that next generation of filmmaker, the writer who wanted to be a director, the independent filmmaker who wanted to make bigger studio movies.

4:35Sundance had just really gotten started. It was a very small festival. And the whole notion of independent film, it was sort of like Sex Lives videotape had just come out. Quentin Tarantino was just making Reservoir Dogs. It was just the beginning of that burst of energy that would come from the independent film market. and I think our timing was really good and we put the two companies together and that was the beginning. I've always been a skeptic of the idea of these big agencies and working with a big agency out of the fear of getting lost in the sauce and when I started working with you and UTA I found that there's this amazing strategy of although it's a big agency it feels like lots of startups within this larger group where you still get that nimble feeling and productivity that you would if it was a small and tailored team.

5:33And I could say that that's just a coincidence, but I find that unlikely. Was that always part of your hopes for UTA? Well, we definitely felt that if we wanted to continue to be able to compete and to thrive, we had to be able to be entrepreneurial alongside our clients and that we had to put teams together, but real teams, not fake teams. Teams where people were as excited about each other's success as they were their own and certainly as excited as about the client's success as they were their own. We always tried to be client first, 100 % client. If everybody had a model where at some point, I think William Morris came out and said, we're going to be top 2 % of market, top 2%.

6:23We only want the top 2 % of clients in the world. And CA was going to be, we want 100 % market share, whatever it is. We were going to be 100 % client. And we've tried to continue to embody that through the growth and through the expansion and diversification. And I think on our good days, we do it really, really well. I think so too. And hopefully we have more good days than bad. I love that you say talent and that your team uses the word talent and doesn't box the creators or athletes or actors into specific groups because what I see happening is a lot of people, no matter how much they love their craft and how focused they are on their craft, they're often curious to expand beyond and to nearly be successful generalists where an athlete becomes a content creator or a podcast host and then an actor and kind of like that Arnold path which starts off as bodybuilding and then maybe governor and who knows and the the process of taking people through that growth is highly strategic but also you're you're making bets on people that go beyond their specific craft has that always been something that you see in people that you work with, trying to help them?

7:43I would say we really started thinking about that, you know, sort of halfway through the journey where, you know, the first part of the company was, okay, we're going to put the two companies together. We're going to announce ourselves as the fourth, the number four agency, right? It's no longer the big three. It's now the big four, which is kind of a joke. There were like 35 of us at the time, but we're the big four. And we kept saying the big four, the big four. and people were like, what are you talking about? But we believed it. But the battle to survive in that time, UTA 1.0 was about establishing ourselves as a real agency that was going to stick around.

8:21And at the time, you had three big HCA, William Morris and ICM, and all they wanted, you know, they didn't want another competitor. They wanted to take as many clients from us as they could, keep us from thriving while at the same time battling with each other. So the first part of the agency was really focused on that. And then it became clear to me that diversification was going to be really important. One, there was so much business outside of movies and television. And two, our clients were interested in doing other things. And three, in order to grow and be a global agency and have capabilities of doing a lot, you know, we had to start thinking about diversification.

8:58And what I realized is I never want to be in a place where a client says, I really want to do something. And I go, well, sorry, we don't know how to do that. but we can introduce you to an agent somewhere else that does that. And there were some incidents of that in publishing and some incidents of that in other areas, and we didn't want to be in that position. We wanted to maintain the relationship with the client, be incredibly principled to the client's interests, and you want to dream alongside your talent, right? You don't want them to have dreams that you can't fulfill. For sure. So did that start with specific talent where someone would request a service and you would build that team for them?

9:40I mean, there was one incident that sort of spurred us to think about it differently. But no, it really was about a plan to where should we be going and building and what are the things that make sense for us and where do we think we can add real value. So I think our first acquisition was in the news and broadcast space. and it was clear to us that a lot of the broadcasters were looking to have other services outside of just making their deal with the network and that there was a large independent broadcaster agency who was losing their clients because of their inability to service their clients outside of that.

10:20So we said, oh, this would make sense. We could add value to them. They can add value to us. This is an area that makes sense for us to diversify into. And that was sort of the logic of growth. And then it was music and on and on and on. And you did a lot of those through acquisitions, right? Yes. You would buy a team or a business that's already established in that space. Why would you go down the acquisition path versus building that yourself? Well, first of all, going into an area where you have no expertise at all can be challenging. And it's going to be slow. And we wanted to grow. And we wanted to grow quickly.

10:59and purely organic growth is important. I mean, organic growth is important, but not as the only lever of growth. So we looked at what could we do in terms of acquisitions, where are the areas that make sense to do acquisitions? So music, it was really important to me that we get into music. Music was exploding as a format. It was becoming a truly global business. Spotify had changed the entire dynamics of the music business. And we couldn't just say, oh, sorry, we don't do that. And so it was important to get into music. But the idea of, you know, we had tried hiring an agent or two, and it was just very slow.

11:44And music also requires sort of a platform to book your artists. So we acquired a platform that was somewhat troubled at the time and used that as the basis upon which we built a music department. And then because we had a platform, we were able to start hiring agents from other agencies who had clients and started filling it out and building it into what it is now. So, Jeremy, you were one of the first people to make a bet at an agency level on social media and social media talent. And thanks to that, I have a job today. How did you decide to make that call? Well, it was, I mean, we sort of started and we were paying attention to YouTube and YouTube, you know, at the time YouTube influencers.

12:30And most people were just making fun of YouTube. Like, who would want to? But we signed this young man named Lucas Cruickshank who had this character named Fred. Right, right. And Fred was, you know, a very unusual young man. And, well, first actually what happened, I'm sorry, first what happened is in 2006 we said, oh, we should start a division, we called it 60 Frames, to make YouTube videos with our clients. So take professional, you know, known actors and put them into YouTube videos and get them sponsored and put them on YouTube. That was our idea and we're going to start a company and do that.

13:14We actually came up with a business plan, raised money, and started doing it. And it was kind of moving along. It was moving very slowly. Advertisers were not excited, did not understand, didn't get it. We were way too far ahead of our time. And ultimately in 2008, market crashed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We couldn't raise any more money. We shut that down. But in the time, we learned a lot about YouTube and the influencers and who was there and what was interesting. And we kind of said, oh, let's rather than just try to take our talent to YouTube, let's take the endemic talent on YouTube and see if there's ways to do more things with them.

13:55And we were representing this Lucas Cruikshank, and he did this character called Fred. And he had a huge, huge audience at the time. and a friend of mine who had been very, very successful as a kids content creator named Brian Robbins. He was a producer and a director and made movies and television, very successful in everything he did. And I said, hey, we have this kid. He's got this thing on YouTube. His name is Fred. You should check it out. I think what we should do is we should make a movie with Fred. And he was like, well, who's going to put the financing up? He said, no, we should put up our own money and just make this movie?

14:36He was like, I don't know. And he went home and he said to his kids, he had a couple of kids who were like eight and six or whatever it was, and he said, hey, you guys, would you want to see a movie with Fred? And they jumped up and were like, tonight? Can we see it tonight? And he was like, oh, okay. So I convinced him to put up his own money, which is something an agent should never try to get a client to do. And we made the first Fred movie. and I don't remember exactly what the budget is but we then turned around and sold it to Nickelodeon for many, many more times than the budget of the movie and that was the first success.

15:13We ended up making two more of them and that for him, Brian Robbins, that led him into the world of YouTube and he, with our help, started a company called Awesomeness which was one of the first MCNs which we then turned around and sold a couple of years later to DreamWorks. So that immersion into the world really sort of we put a stake in the ground in digital creators, which is a business we've built tremendously with great, great colleagues. Allie Berman, who you know well, is leader of that. We then acquired an influencer management company called DBA to sort of give us a real toehold in the beauty and fashion influencer space.

16:02and we built a great, great team there, really focused on that. I mean, do you find that the craft of being a digital creator that it used to be has now just become a decision that all creative people take versus it being a specialization? It's now just part of everyone's strategy that is a client of UTAs. I wouldn't say it's a part of everyone's strategy because there's so many different kinds of talent and so many different ways that people want to do it. And, you know, a lot of actors, they don't want to have to wake up every morning and think, what am I going to do? What am I going to write?

16:44Where am I going to go? How am I going to shoot it? They want to be a part of somebody of a larger company. You know, they're looking for the inspiration of a writer and the inspiration of a director. and they want to be transported into a character that they don't know and haven't met and aren't living with. And that's very real and very important and creates great, great product. And so there's so many different buckets of talent. Ultimately, some actors are like, wow, I really want to develop my own personality and my own audience and I want to own that audience in a way. and some of them do that, but a lot of them don't.

17:27And I think it's important to understand there's so many different ways that talent wanna express themselves. But for creators, the business opportunity exists and the creative opportunity exists and the freedom that exists where you can wake up in the morning with your own idea and your own iPhone and start doing something and not be reliant on all those people and all that stuff is really, really remarkable and exciting for a lot of people. When you look for new talent, I think there's some that are undeniably a home run. Like if a tier one athlete is looking for an agency, it's a no brainer.

18:07But you do make early bets on creators and you sometimes that are unbacked by data because they're so early on in their careers. They may not have the metrics to support the belief they have in themselves. What do you look for in people, aside from them being talented of their crafts, when you bring them into the world of UTA? Well, across the board, whether someone's written a one-act play that has a distinctive voice or someone's directed a short film that clearly this guy has a vision and a way of presenting stories or a creator who's developed a persona that is knowable and engaging. engaging across the board.

18:59What we're doing is making bets on people. And we've always differentiated ourselves as the most willing. We built our agency betting on new voices, original voices, creative voices, and we continue to do that. I think it's really, really important for the heartbeat of the agency to always have exciting new talent. I mean, this year we represent Mikey Madison. You know, she's the star of Anora, won the Academy Award, and she's just a brilliant new talent. No one knew who she was a year and a half ago. I mean, people in the acting community did, but she wasn't famous. She didn't have any followers, but she certainly had an incredible talent and charisma.

19:43You know, several years ago we made a bet on, you know, one of our colleagues' bet on Timothee Chalamet. He was at Juilliard, but they saw something and believed in that. And so supporting that is in, you know, that's in the heartbeat of our agency and the heartbeat of good agents. You know, I think that, you know, agents, people make a lot of fun of agents. Many people's first exposure to agents is, you know, they show Entourage, which shows this sort of, you know, empty vessel of a human being who's, you know, sort of a flesh covered thermometer. And yet, in fairness, he is a passionate advocate for his clients.

20:25I think it's really important. What I try to say to our colleagues is, look, there is a nobility in representing artists. It takes so much courage to say, I'm going to be an artist. I'm going to be a creator. I'm going to be a musician. I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to be a director. I mean, you must be crazy. It's like saying you want to be an astronaut. And yet they do it over and over and over again. And that kind of courage, I think, demands a kind of respect. And I think as an agent, taking on that responsibility, there's real nobility in that. And you have to honor that relationship.

21:06And I think we really do. I think that a lot of creators today, during times of struggle, and I mean, people in general, blame third parties or externalities for their shortcomings. I have a lot of friends who complain about the algorithms being against them and being shadow banned and all these things. And I usually don't believe it because I think good content in any medium will get the recognition it deserves and bad content will encourage you to rethink what you're doing. And you once said that the greatest business tool is a mirror. I would love for you to elaborate on that. Yeah, I do say that a lot.

21:52And I heed my own suggestion, not as frequently as I make it perhaps. But yeah, most of the time, and this goes beyond just representation and professional life. This is life, in my opinion. And now that I'm old, I get to talk about life in general. Most of the time, in relationships, we have a lot of thoughts and input for other people about what they can be doing better. You know, I find I have a, I always say I have a PhD in what my wife's doing wrong. But I have a very, very limited amount of input in what I could do better. And until I sort of turn that around and really, really get honest and real with myself about my own shortcomings, I'm not going to really get very far.

22:47And so people with artists, and the other part of being an artist is it's hard to get real feedback. Because you go and you do what you do and you slave over it, you make it, and you show it to your friends and they go, oh my God, it's brilliant. Because no one wants to hurt your feelings. And, you know, your agent doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they don't want to get fired or they don't want you to feel that you don't believe in them. And, you know, so where are you going to get that real feedback? And it's really, really important to be able to get the real feedback. And it's really important to be able to look yourself in and say, did I do my best work?

23:23Did I sort of throw it out there before it was ready? Did I edit it enough times? Did I think through what the theme of what I'm trying to say is? you know have I worked hard enough and I think that you know it's it's a harder conversation because we do tend to beat ourselves up a lot but do we do it constructively in a real context that allows us to grow or do we just do it so we can feel sorry for ourselves so how do you do that constructively with yourself well this has been you know the mission for me for a long time because, you know, I didn't, I didn't show up on a winning streak, you know, at, you know, I flunked out of college or was thrown out of college, uh, kind of a combination of things.

24:09And, and then was working in a parking lot and, you know, I was 19 years old and was like, my life was, I'd been flunked out of college. I was working in a parking lot. I had a, you know, unfortunate accident in a parking lot and I find myself with very few options, you know, and, uh, And my grandfather was able to help me get a job in the mailroom in the William Morris Agency. But at no point was I like, wow, how am I going to build the life I really want? So I was always struggling and always struggling with other people. Other people were my problem. My boss doesn't get it. This company doesn't move quick enough.

24:48The client doesn't listen. This one, that. First marriage. My wife doesn't. Always. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. and uh first of all it doesn't make you very happy you're spending your time focusing on what other people are doing wrong makes you miserable it does not they don't change at all and you get miserable so you know it's a journey of self you know it's a journey of getting there yourself and working on the things that you need to really change you know that's that's the key to this whole thing is, you know, progress breeds happiness. For sure. Then that's different than success breeds happiness.

25:26Because the problem with success is it masks over a lot of problems. Right? You can say, what's wrong with me? Look at this car I'm driving. What's wrong with me? Look at this job I have. What's wrong with me? Look at this house I live in. I'm killing it. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Please do swear. I swear like a lunatic. But you know, So many of the trappings of your life will tell you, I'm crushing it. And anyone who doesn't see what I'm doing, who doesn't appreciate me, just doesn't get it. And it's only through an accumulation of misery that you go, wait a minute. Is it possible that I'm the problem?

26:07Or that I'm 50 % of the problem? Maybe 20 % of the problem? But whatever it is, you got to focus on that thing. Yeah. I mean, for you, have you always been driven by outcomes or the process? I mean, you know, most of my, for a good portion of my life, it was outcome related. It was like, you know, I, you know, my family, parents were both divorced multiple times. You know, I moved back and forth between parents several times as my childhood. I went to four different schools in the seventh grade. I was, you know, really upside down life. And so basically at the heart of it for me was, you know, I gotta, I gotta figure my life.

26:54I gotta take care of myself. You know, you know, so it was like, well, I gotta get stuff to make me feel good. So yeah, outcome, you know, outcome, uh, generated for sure. It's like, oh, I got a raise. Oh, I got a new job a new title a new car a bigger this a bigger that okay great but you realize after a time you know a new watch lasts for like two days car gives you about 10 days worth of happiness you start realizing that all these app things that you think are going to make you happy have very short shelf lengths when people say that you should no matter what be focused on process versus outcomes it usually comes from a position of privilege because i think to be process focused comes with privilege.

27:41Because people who are focused on outcomes are usually trying to solve for problems that mean more to them than their day-to-day happiness. Just like you said, once you go past that point of, I've solved these things, then the process can become enjoyable. Right. So I think that's very well said. Yeah, when you're sitting there trying to figure out how to pay the gas bill, you're not trying to develop your Or, you know, that'd be nice, but I don't think, you know, this spiritual life is going to keep the lights on. Exactly. I completely agree. I mean, I try to, through my day-to-day job of Stadgei and all the things I try to do adjacent to that, poke fun at people who don't assess their own privilege.

28:24Right. My fictional characters who are as privileged as it gets. They have everything, but they're always complaining. Right. Especially Constance, the Dijktaad guy. He's perpetually frowning. And there's such little gratitude to everything he has visually. But he then projects this wisdom that he seems not to follow himself. Right. And that's something I see a lot in this world of ultra high net worth people, very successful people, where they end up in these echo chambers. of advice they can't even follow. And people around them just love hearing what they have to say because they're in their beautiful home or on their beautiful boat.

29:12So the advice seems so profound, but actually they haven't followed the advice themselves. Yeah. Well, perfection is a very hard thing to achieve, right? And living that pure spiritual life is a really, really hard thing to do and usually you only get there by being stripped of but you know by a lot of bad accumulation of difficulties that sort of drive you into well at least i've got gratitude you know for sure so how do you you know for me this is my you know this is the challenge of my life right is how do i how do i want what i have as opposed to getting what i want you know that's been the the motto certainly for the last several years and more so now than ever as I'm making my own change in life.